PiBoSo Official Forum

General => General Discussion => Topic started by: dareaper46 on February 24, 2016, 03:41:04 PM

Title: General netcode/physics debate.
Post by: dareaper46 on February 24, 2016, 03:41:04 PM
With such big problems on hand.. Core crashes and weird bike physics behaviour... we need this :

* GPB / WRS / KRP / MXB: added the possibility to compare setups

-.-
Title: Re: Re: GPBikes uphill downhill strange thing
Post by: Hawk on February 24, 2016, 04:07:24 PM
Quote from: dareaper46 on February 24, 2016, 03:41:04 PM
With such big problems on hand.. Core crashes and weird bike physics behaviour... we need this :

* GPB / WRS / KRP / MXB: added the possibility to compare setups

-.-

I tend to agree, and I feel frustrations building because Piboso apparently seems to be working mostly on issues that quite frankly are issues for polishing the projects towards the end.....

But maybe there are reasons unbeknown to us why Piboso is working on these seemingly small additions instead of the major issues??? Maybe Piboso could enlighten us because I can feel real frustration and may I say anger building at the seemingly lack of work being even started on the major problems.

Please enlighten us Piboso, you keep promising us that your going to fix the netcode problem but we see no evidence of this. We really want to help but we're finding it hard to understand your priorities here right now.  :)

Hawk.
Title: Re: Re: GPBikes uphill downhill strange thing
Post by: TFC on February 24, 2016, 04:18:27 PM
It's been the best part of a year (10 months) since anyone in MXB could play online, so hopefully the priorities are MXB beta 4 with the option of disabling deformation on the server followed by nothing but netcode/stability fixes.
Title: Re: Re: GPBikes uphill downhill strange thing
Post by: WALKEN on February 24, 2016, 04:25:32 PM
Although we are sliding the front off topic here, I always viewed netcode as an after thought. Physics need to be stable first.

What good is a netcode if the physics are off? We are just spoiled is all.   
Title: Re: Re: GPBikes uphill downhill strange thing
Post by: Hawk on February 24, 2016, 04:34:52 PM
Quote from: TheFatController on February 24, 2016, 04:18:27 PM
It's been the best part of a year (10 months) since anyone in MXB could play online, so hopefully the priorities are MXB beta 4 with the option of disabling deformation on the server followed by nothing but netcode/stability fixes.

We've been awaiting a fix to the netcode way before MXB was a twinkle in Piboso's eye. Lol. Besides a fix to the netcode would translate into all his projects not just GPB.  :P ;)

But I would suggest your statement belongs on the MXB forum and not here, but if you feel you have to post a statement not related to GPB in this forum then post it in the off-topic thread.  ::)

Hawk.
Title: Re: Re: GPBikes uphill downhill strange thing
Post by: Yohji on February 24, 2016, 04:48:42 PM
perhaps it have difference  between player and Developer.

I think. it sounds nice that we(player) are discussion what we want and it priorities . and we suggestion it to Developer, and ask "How hard can it be?"


Title: Re: Re: GPBikes uphill downhill strange thing
Post by: TFC on February 24, 2016, 04:54:36 PM
Quote from: Hawk on February 24, 2016, 04:34:52 PM
Quote from: TheFatController on February 24, 2016, 04:18:27 PM
It's been the best part of a year (10 months) since anyone in MXB could play online, so hopefully the priorities are MXB beta 4 with the option of disabling deformation on the server followed by nothing but netcode/stability fixes.

We've been awaiting a fix to the netcode way before MXB was a twinkle in Piboso's eye. Lol. Besides a fix to the netcode would translate into all his projects not just GPB.  :P ;)

But I would suggest your statement belongs on the MXB forum and not here, but if you feel you have to post a statement not related to GPB in this forum then post it in the off-topic thread.  ::)

Hawk.

It might not be related to the strange up and down hills bug, so sorry for keeping it off topic but I was just replying to your post made above (should have quoted). In fact I think it was a pretty relevant reply as I was replying to the whole 'what's PiBoSo working on' thing. I've seen a lot of mxb stuff in the daily dev thread which gives me hope of seeing beta 4 before any more very extensive changes are added delaying it further.

I'm well aware you guys have had core.exe problems long before mxb was in nappies, but random cores and not being able to get online at all are two different things..

Also as for the result of a netcode fix being valid for all sims, right on, but that just highlights the fact that we're all in the same boat, gpb, mxb, krp, wrs.. Just sharing the love right?

Ok, no more from me, you guys can get back to talking about your hills :)
Title: Re: Re: GPBikes uphill downhill strange thing
Post by: Hawk on February 24, 2016, 04:55:14 PM
Quote from: WALKEN on February 24, 2016, 04:25:32 PM
Although we are sliding the front off topic here, I always viewed netcode as an after thought. Physics need to be stable first.

What good is a netcode if the physics are off? We are just spoiled is all.

I'm shocked WALKEN!  :o :o

I can only think you don't understand just how important online playability and stability is to Piboso's customers for any of Piboso's projects.... Without that his projects are as good as dead in the water in my opinion... Keeps saying his projects are not selling enough to make a living.... Well, "Ding!, "Ding!", we keep telling him why and what's needed to get people to start really buying his projects yet we see no evidence or, just as importantly, any explanation as to just why he's not working on these major issues.

The GPB physics are good enough for riders to really enjoy themselves right now, and have been since beta 3 in my opinion.... Online stability surely is the highest of priorities?  Should have been for a long, long time before now.

Maybe he thinks the same, that the physics are still a higher priority? Given the overwhelming evidence that is staring Piboso in the face here on this forum, I'd say that was crazy thinking in my book.  ::)

I need a smoke! QUICKLY! Hehe  ;D ;D 8)

Hawk.

Title: Re: Re: GPBikes uphill downhill strange thing
Post by: Hawk on February 24, 2016, 05:03:20 PM
Quote from: TheFatController on February 24, 2016, 04:54:36 PM
Quote from: Hawk on February 24, 2016, 04:34:52 PM
Quote from: TheFatController on February 24, 2016, 04:18:27 PM
It's been the best part of a year (10 months) since anyone in MXB could play online, so hopefully the priorities are MXB beta 4 with the option of disabling deformation on the server followed by nothing but netcode/stability fixes.

We've been awaiting a fix to the netcode way before MXB was a twinkle in Piboso's eye. Lol. Besides a fix to the netcode would translate into all his projects not just GPB.  :P ;)

But I would suggest your statement belongs on the MXB forum and not here, but if you feel you have to post a statement not related to GPB in this forum then post it in the off-topic thread.  ::)

Hawk.

It might not be related to the strange up and down hills bug, so sorry for keeping it off topic but I was just replying to your post made above (should have quoted). In fact I think it was a pretty relevant reply as I was replying to the whole 'what's PiBoSo working on' thing. I've seen a lot of mxb stuff in the daily dev thread which gives me hope of seeing beta 4 before any more very extensive changes are added delaying it further.

I'm well aware you guys have had core.exe problems long before mxb was in nappies, but random cores and not being able to get online at all are two different things..

Also as for the result of a netcode fix being valid for all sims, right on, but that just highlights the fact that we're all in the same boat, gpb, mxb, krp, wrs.. Just sharing the love right?

Ok, no more from me, you guys can get back to talking about your hills :)

My apologies mate.... It's not my place to be saying what should be posted here..... I'm just feeling really pissed-off today(nothing related to Piboso or GPB). Like you say, we're all in the same boat right.   ;) 8)

I'll just go and have a smoke and stay away from the forum for a few hours.... Hopefully I'll be in a better mood. Lol  :-\ :-X 8)

Hawk.  :-X
Title: Re: Re: GPBikes uphill downhill strange thing
Post by: TFC on February 24, 2016, 05:08:42 PM
No offense taken mate :)
Title: Re: Re: GPBikes uphill downhill strange thing
Post by: Stout Johnson on February 24, 2016, 05:33:31 PM
Quote from: Hawk on February 24, 2016, 04:55:14 PM
I'm shocked WALKEN!  :o :o

I can only think you don't understand just how important online playability and stability is to Piboso's customers for any of Piboso's projects.... Without that his projects are as good as dead in the water in my opinion... Keeps saying his projects are not selling enough to make a living.... Well, "Ding!, "Ding!", we keep telling him why and what's needed to get people to start really buying his projects yet we see no evidence or, just as importantly, any explanation as to just why he's not working on these major issues.

The GPB physics are good enough for riders to really enjoy themselves right now, and have been since beta 3 in my opinion.... Online stability surely is the highest of priorities?  Should have been for a long, long time before now.
Exactly! GPB physics is so much advanced compared to any other (of the few) motorcycle titles, what it needs is a stable netcode for a stable fanbase. It is just being proven by the latest edition of Napalm Nick's race event - the riders involved seemed to have so much fun and seemd seemingly addicted - the only strings attached came from core.exe stuff (and a bit obviously nervous front wobbles). But any physics at this advanced stage, will not deter players from riding and competing online. Core.exe for sure does!!! We did have already great races back in beta3 stage, the only fun-limiting stuff were core.exe's!

Piboso's spirits lately seemed almost battered by the fact that strong competition might be around the corner for KRP. All this with KRP having a huge fanbase, waiting for the game to become stable online for years... this could happen to any title of yours any time Piboso.

I don't want to be in the "GPB complainer's club"... like Hawk said, a short notice or proof of Piboso acklowledging the main issues (atm netcode) and actually working on it, would make waiting much more bearable. If he continues to ignore all warnings signs, I think there is no reason to complain about absence of sales or other titles challenging the market he failed to occupy... and we might lose the chance to see this tremendous sim become a finished product ever.  :-\

If I could choose between...
a) physics frozen as they are but perfect netcode
b) perfect physics (as perfect as it might ever be possible) and netcode as it is
... I would surely choose a) without a doubt. And I would bet that the vast majority would agree. In the end Piboso, you need to live on the sales, for sales you need to know what customers want. We are giving you valuable feedback. Even if you have second thoughts to let physics stay as they are, this is what you have to do in order to keep your projects alive. You will in all likeliness never reach a situtation, where you are 100% content with physics! There will always be some minor issues, that you will want to tackle. It is like science - the more problems you solve, the more new questions arise - only on a different scale. So just accept your great work with the advanced physics you have and concentrate on making your sims have a stable netcode. Otherwise you are digging a grave for your projects...

(sorry for staying off-topic)
Title: Re: Re: GPBikes uphill downhill strange thing
Post by: h106frp on February 24, 2016, 07:27:04 PM
As an aside, has anybody noticed if they get a debug dump after core?, i remember PB suggesting he was adding some new debug stuff.
Title: Re: Re: GPBikes uphill downhill strange thing
Post by: Hawk on February 24, 2016, 07:40:56 PM
Quote from: h106frp on February 24, 2016, 07:27:04 PM
As an aside, has anybody noticed if they get a debug dump after core?, i remember PB suggesting he was adding some new debug stuff.

Firstly just to say I totally agree with what Stout has said in his post above.... Well said mate!  ;)

I remember something about debug that Piboso was talking about a while back for beta 8, but I'm buggered if I can find that post now.  :-\

Not looked for a debug dump log after a core.... I'll have to remember to do that, but Piboso has not said or asked for any debug help from us, so I'd guess there isn't one.

Hawk.
Title: Re: Re: GPBikes uphill downhill strange thing
Post by: Vini on February 24, 2016, 08:15:34 PM
Quote from: Hawk on February 24, 2016, 07:40:56 PMNot looked for a debug dump log after a core.... I'll have to remember to do that, but Piboso has not said or asked for any debug help from us, so I'd guess there isn't one.
We all know that PiBoSo works in mysterious ways.
Remember the RotationAxis thing? He added a completely new function to new the game and didn't even feel the need to put it into the changelog..... lol


And I would also like to find PiBoSo's comment regarding debug again.
I am almost 100% sure he put it in the daily development thread.
Title: Re: Re: GPBikes uphill downhill strange thing
Post by: WALKEN on February 24, 2016, 09:19:27 PM
Quote from: Hawk on February 24, 2016, 04:55:14 PM
Quote from: WALKEN on February 24, 2016, 04:25:32 PM
Although we are sliding the front off topic here, I always viewed netcode as an after thought. Physics need to be stable first.

What good is a netcode if the physics are off? We are just spoiled is all.

I'm shocked WALKEN!  :o :o

I can only think you don't understand just how important online playability and stability is to Piboso's customers for any of Piboso's projects.... Without that his projects are as good as dead in the water in my opinion... Keeps saying his projects are not selling enough to make a living.... Well, "Ding!, "Ding!", we keep telling him why and what's needed to get people to start really buying his projects yet we see no evidence or, just as importantly, any explanation as to just why he's not working on these major issues.

The GPB physics are good enough for riders to really enjoy themselves right now, and have been since beta 3 in my opinion.... Online stability surely is the highest of priorities?  Should have been for a long, long time before now.

Maybe he thinks the same, that the physics are still a higher priority? Given the overwhelming evidence that is staring Piboso in the face here on this forum, I'd say that was crazy thinking in my book.  ::)

I need a smoke! QUICKLY! Hehe  ;D ;D 8)

Hawk.

The one thing I can point out is GPBikes is a beta. It has great things to offer as well as not so great things. I can't see Piboso releasing GPBikes as a beta. The netcode has to be stable upon final release to be successful.  We are more testers than the general public hence we deal with let down with empathy.   
Title: Re: General netcode/physics debate.
Post by: PiBoSo on February 24, 2016, 09:38:39 PM
As already explained before, GP Bikes is first of all a motorcycle simulator.
No one would be here supporting the project if it was just another bike game.
If you want to just race online, there's plenty of Milestone games.
So of course physics always took the top spot, because it's what makes GP Bikes unique.
Now, at last, everyone seems to be reasonably happy with the physics and all the planned features have been integrated.
The only exceptions are up/downhill turns and brakes temperature / wear.
Regarding the weird behaviour of the bike when turning downhill, you can be assured there is no "pivot" like in games. The bike is simulated using real forces only.
Please note that physics had priority because of MX Bikes, too.

Now the plan is to keep updating all the projects. There aren't  many tasks left to complete ( and the online crashes are of course part of them ), especially for GPB.
In the meantime, please try to convert the mods to Beta8. There are no plans to change the file format anymore.
Title: Re: General netcode/physics debate.
Post by: Blackheart on February 24, 2016, 09:50:08 PM
The netcode in the Milestone's games is very bad  ::)
Title: Re: General netcode/physics debate.
Post by: Vini on February 24, 2016, 10:11:16 PM
Quote from: PiBoSo on February 24, 2016, 09:38:39 PMNow, at last, everyone seems to be reasonably happy with the physics and all the planned features have been integrated.
Apart from the strong wobbles at 30° lean (http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=2900.msg49348#msg49348) and too much grip at the rear (of the Mura) which leads to a lot of gearbox problems on downshifts (making braking very messy sometimes).
The wobbles only begin to show on the Mura when carrying low fuel (<5L).
Who is testing the bikes before a new beta release and at which track? Victoria is really not sufficient for testing. Almost every bike is smooth there so it's very hard to spot physics problems.

Quote from: PiBoSo on February 24, 2016, 09:38:39 PMThe bike is simulated using real forces only.
I was expecting this from GPB but if the simulation is based on real forces how come the visual result doesn't look real?

Lastly, I am still waiting for your response on the rider fall-off bug (http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=3103.msg48704#msg48704).
We had a small discussion there on why it's a bug, why it's problematic and what would need to be changed.


Don't get me wrong, PiBoSo. Beta8 is the best beta so far and it's very fun but progress doesn't stop.
Title: Re: General netcode/physics debate.
Post by: PiBoSo on February 24, 2016, 10:21:30 PM
Quote from: vin97 on February 24, 2016, 10:11:16 PM
Quote from: PiBoSo on February 24, 2016, 09:38:39 PMNow, at last, everyone seems to be reasonably happy with the physics and all the planned features have been integrated.
Apart from the strong wobbles at 30° lean (http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=2900.msg49348#msg49348) and too much grip at the rear (of the Mura) which leads to a lot of gearbox problems on downshifts (making braking very messy sometimes).
The wobbles only begin to show on the Mura when carrying low fuel (<5L).

Those problems can most likely be fixed with better data, specifically of the tyres and steer damper.
However, the gearbox simulation probably needs work.
Title: Re: General netcode/physics debate.
Post by: Blackheart on February 24, 2016, 10:49:02 PM
Quote from: PiBoSo on February 24, 2016, 09:38:39 PM
In the meantime, please try to convert the mods to Beta8. There are no plans to change the file format anymore.

This is a great news!  :D

Title: Re: General netcode/physics debate.
Post by: Hawk on February 24, 2016, 11:39:00 PM
Quote from: PiBoSo on February 24, 2016, 09:38:39 PM
As already explained before, GP Bikes is first of all a motorcycle simulator.
No one would be here supporting the project if it was just another bike game.

That's very true.... as far as I'm concerned it's the very best and one and only true GPbike simulator.  8)

Quote from: PiBoSo on February 24, 2016, 09:38:39 PM
If you want to just race online, there's plenty of Milestone games.


Phffff!!! Milestone games! You must be joking! Lol  :P


Quote from: PiBoSo on February 24, 2016, 09:38:39 PM
So of course physics always took the top spot, because it's what makes GP Bikes unique.

With the online racing being just as important as the physics in our eyes, that statement and hence your priority is just what we cannot understand...... If as much work was being put into the online stability issues as is the physics we'd be more than pleased with everything, but as it is now your building a beautiful piece of art on rocky foundations it seems. Surely it would've  been more harmonious to have worked on both issues at the same time?  :)

Quote from: PiBoSo on February 24, 2016, 09:38:39 PM
Now, at last, everyone seems to be reasonably happy with the physics and all the planned features have been integrated.
The only exceptions are up/downhill turns and brakes temperature / wear.
That's good to know. However, as far as planned features are concerned, what about all the discussion we had about live replay features and live streaming features about a year ago now? I presume they are classed as features? So a little disappointed you have said, "all the planned features have been integrated".  Does this mean those additional feature ideas have been dropped now? :-\

Quote from: PiBoSo on February 24, 2016, 09:38:39 PM
Regarding the weird behaviour of the bike when turning downhill, you can be assured there is no "pivot" like in games. The bike is simulated using real forces only.

That's good to hear.  :)


Quote from: PiBoSo on February 24, 2016, 09:38:39 PM
Now the plan is to keep updating all the projects. There aren't  many tasks left to complete ( and the online crashes are of course part of them ), especially for GPB.

That's good to now, but please, please work on major features that have the biggest issues/bugs first before features that can be implemented at the latter stage of development.  :)

Quote from: PiBoSo on February 24, 2016, 09:38:39 PM
In the meantime, please try to convert the mods to Beta8. There are no plans to change the file format anymore.

I know you've explained why you don't want to do this, but I was still hoping at some stage that you'd be convinced to find a way to allow modders to create and integrate their own rider models and riding styles(which I'd presume would require file format changes too)? I'm absolutely convinced that would be another major + for this great sim.
If that is not at all acceptable/possible, and this is not a priority for us by any means, but please fix those massive feet on the current rider model, they really don't look right at all.  :P ;D

Frustrations are vented at times, but don't get me wrong.... Beta 8 is indeed a great improvement on beta 7 and I'm looking forward to seeing what can be done with the bikemods too.  ;D 8)

Hawk



Title: Re: General netcode/physics debate.
Post by: Napalm Nick on February 24, 2016, 11:55:27 PM
Back in the day when PiBoSo was a nipper
(http://images.sodahead.com/polls/001928839/610878793_big_feet_answer_1_xlarge.gif)

ROFL  ;D

I have nothing intelligent in addition to add to this debate (which is a good sign!)
Title: Re: General netcode/physics debate.
Post by: PiBoSo on February 25, 2016, 12:17:37 AM
Quote from: Hawk on February 24, 2016, 11:39:00 PM
Quote from: PiBoSo on February 24, 2016, 09:38:39 PM
Now, at last, everyone seems to be reasonably happy with the physics and all the planned features have been integrated.
The only exceptions are up/downhill turns and brakes temperature / wear.
That's good to know. However, as far as planned features are concerned, what about all the discussion we had about live replay features and live streaming features about a year ago now? I presume they are classed as features? So a little disappointed you have said, "all the planned features have been integrated".  Does this mean those additional feature ideas have been dropped now? :-\

Physics features. Like ride height and forks offset settings.
Title: Re: General netcode/physics debate.
Post by: WALKEN on February 25, 2016, 12:59:08 AM
Piboso,

isn't it safe to say that unless feedback comes from strictly the beta with no mods is an unfair goose chase for you?
Title: Re: General netcode/physics debate.
Post by: dareaper46 on February 25, 2016, 05:22:47 AM
Quote from: PiBoSo on February 24, 2016, 09:38:39 PM
As already explained before, GP Bikes is first of all a motorcycle simulator.
No one would be here supporting the project if it was just another bike game.
If you want to just race online, there's plenty of Milestone games.
So of course physics always took the top spot, because it's what makes GP Bikes unique.
Now, at last, everyone seems to be reasonably happy with the physics and all the planned features have been integrated.
The only exceptions are up/downhill turns and brakes temperature / wear.
Regarding the weird behaviour of the bike when turning downhill, you can be assured there is no "pivot" like in games. The bike is simulated using real forces only.
Please note that physics had priority because of MX Bikes, too.

Now the plan is to keep updating all the projects. There aren't  many tasks left to complete ( and the online crashes are of course part of them ), especially for GPB.
In the meantime, please try to convert the mods to Beta8. There are no plans to change the file format anymore.

And things like this is something we all want. Just for you to communicate with us. We don't mind waiting, it is a great product, who wouldn't wait for the final version. All we want to know is that the problems we are discovering and that have been discovered are being worked on, and that you are listening to us etc. As WALKEN said, we are more testers than the general public. Use us, take the feedback, use it and make the game a better place :P.

Anyway thanks for the feedback Piboso
Title: Re: General netcode/physics debate.
Post by: h106frp on February 25, 2016, 07:55:59 AM
Quote from: PiBoSo on February 24, 2016, 09:38:39 PM
As already explained before, GP Bikes is first of all a motorcycle simulator.
No one would be here supporting the project if it was just another bike game.
If you want to just race online, there's plenty of Milestone games.
So of course physics always took the top spot, because it's what makes GP Bikes unique.
Now, at last, everyone seems to be reasonably happy with the physics and all the planned features have been integrated.
The only exceptions are up/downhill turns and brakes temperature / wear.
Regarding the weird behaviour of the bike when turning downhill, you can be assured there is no "pivot" like in games. The bike is simulated using real forces only.
Please note that physics had priority because of MX Bikes, too.

Now the plan is to keep updating all the projects. There aren't  many tasks left to complete ( and the online crashes are of course part of them ), especially for GPB.
In the meantime, please try to convert the mods to Beta8. There are no plans to change the file format anymore.

Does this indicate that no further graphical improvements will be made to the the bike models or is it just for the physics modelling?
I would have expected that once the physical simulation is complete and the on-line issues resolved then it would be a chance for a final visual polish and get everything up to 2016 standards prior to release 1.



The suggestions/bug reports still have a lot of open entries
Title: Re: General netcode/physics debate.
Post by: BOBR6 84 on February 25, 2016, 08:22:17 AM
I love racing online but i must admit with GPB i would be alot happier to see a serious simulator at the end of it all.. even if it meant multiplayer took the back seat.. so im kinda happy reading this thread  ;D

personally though i think there is lots to do before it becomes a serious simulator. sure there is lot's of things about it which are VERY realistic! but also lots of things which stop me from being blown away by it.

All in all though i find it pretty incredible what piboso has achieved so far and i prey he carries on!
Title: Re: General netcode/physics debate.
Post by: Hawk on February 25, 2016, 06:29:09 PM
Quote from: ptrshpt on February 25, 2016, 03:30:49 PM
Quote from: PiBoSo on January 21, 2015, 03:00:31 PM
Quote from: Klax75 on January 21, 2015, 02:53:56 PM
Any chance of a rider position editor? To make different times of riding styles?

There is a chance, but it's a small one.

Quote from: Hawk on February 24, 2016, 11:39:00 PM

I know you've explained why you don't want to do this, but I was still hoping at some stage that you'd be convinced to find a way to allow modders to create and integrate their own rider models and riding styles(which I'd presume would require file format changes too)? I'm absolutely convinced that would be another major + for this great sim.

Hawk

Quote from: PiBoSo on December 31, 2015, 12:35:09 PM
Quote from: Hawk on December 31, 2015, 10:55:12 AM
Good points Yohji!  ;)
This is another good reason for Piboso to give us the capability to custom create our own rider models and animations.  He has no plans to do this, but hopefully in the future he will see that it is the way to go so that it will free-up modders ability to provide different rider models and animations to suit whatever creations we would like to build. :)

Hawk.

It's not just the rider animations.
The rider movements should be simulated in the physics, too.

What are you pointing out here ptrshpt? You have no comment?  :)

Hawk.
Title: Re: General netcode/physics debate.
Post by: Grooveski on February 25, 2016, 07:27:53 PM
I first got into GPB on Beta6 and it was a lesson in frustration. 
Was fine at first but as I got quicker it turned into a washout/runaway bike cycle that my patience couldn't deal with so I gave up on it.

Guess my point is that I wasn't even close to going online(and I'm as big a fan of online racing as the next guy). 
For me the time has been spent on the right issues.  The wee rider dude leans forward now, it's a fair bit easier to stay upright and the bike doesn't do half a lap without me after a spill.  B8 feels like a huge step forward.   ;D

Of course now I'll probably play it to the point where I do feel ready to go online - so have all these other problems still to come.   :P
...but at least I will be playing it again. ;)
Title: Re: General netcode/physics debate.
Post by: Hawk on February 25, 2016, 08:29:36 PM
Quote from: Grooveski on February 25, 2016, 07:27:53 PM
I first got into GPB on Beta6 and it was a lesson in frustration. 
Was fine at first but as I got quicker it turned into a washout/runaway bike cycle that my patience couldn't deal with so I gave up on it.

Guess my point is that I wasn't even close to going online(and I'm as big a fan of online racing as the next guy). 
For me the time has been spent on the right issues.  The wee rider dude leans forward now, it's a fair bit easier to stay upright and the bike doesn't do half a lap without me after a spill.  B8 feels like a huge step forward.   ;D

Of course now I'll probably play it to the point where I do feel ready to go online - so have all these other problems still to come.   :P
...but at least I will be playing it again. ;)

You should come and join us online mate, no matter what standard you are.... it's all good fun and you'd be very welcomed.  ;) 8)

Hawk.
Title: Re: General netcode/physics debate.
Post by: doubledragoncc on February 25, 2016, 08:35:32 PM
Hey Grooveski, long time dude. Even I went online and raced for the first time since 2010 and it was great. I am not fast as I am learning new tracks and the new beta but it is so much better than riding alone and you learn a lot from the others.

Hope to see you online sometime

DD
Title: Re: General netcode/physics debate.
Post by: Stout Johnson on February 25, 2016, 10:12:05 PM
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on February 25, 2016, 08:22:17 AM
I love racing online but i must admit with GPB i would be alot happier to see a serious simulator at the end of it all.. even if it meant multiplayer took the back seat.. so im kinda happy reading this thread  ;D

Quote from: Grooveski on February 25, 2016, 07:27:53 PM
Guess my point is that I wasn't even close to going online(and I'm as big a fan of online racing as the next guy). 
For me the time has been spent on the right issues. 

With all due respect to your opinions, I think you do not fully understand what I (and several others like Hawk and MaX ...) are referring to. Of course realistic physics is the no.1 prerequisite. But GPB's physics is probably far ahead of anything else since the early alpha-versions. My fear is, that if Piboso furthermore ignores the importance of a working netcode and strives to get the physics simulation perfect ('perfect' in that respect is an illusion anyhow) before tackling netcode with all powers he has, then GPB will be overtaken sooner or later - in all likeliness ending the development of the greatest motorcycle simulation in the process. What good will it be then, that beta_x+1 felt better than the beta_x?

Let me make it more evident: Let's assume Piboso continues developing like he did. GPB beta9 will probably arrive some time around late 2016 or early 2017, with small physics improvements (but still some things that need to be adressed in terms of physics and virtual rider), supposedly some improvements in terms of netcode (but still core.exe being very numerous in crowded dynamic track servers). So then just imagine one of the numerous car sim developers happens to make up his mind to use his knowledge in tyre and suspension simulation etc. to publish a bike simulation with next gen graphics. Or if RIDE 2 should all of a sudden be developed by a team with more ambitious aspirations in terms of physics simulation. As sad as it is, GPB would be history in no time then  :-\  The development of a rival title could be much less dramatic though, if netcode was working in the mean-time. THEN the community would be growing in no time, mods would be developed left and right and another title would be much less of a threat, better graphics or not.

I know I am repeating myself here, but only because I feel my point is either not fully understood (or just being ignored). And I just can't help myself to wiggle the 'finger of sanity'... with the slim hope of being heard, and more importantly being understood.

Quote from: PiBoSo on February 24, 2016, 09:38:39 PM
No one would be here supporting the project if it was just another bike game.
If you want to just race online, there's plenty of Milestone games.
So of course physics always took the top spot, because it's what makes GP Bikes unique.
I am part of the GPB community since the early days, and you should know I am one of the rather hardcore sim supporters. That's is why I always try to contribute in the discussions on GPB physics. But as stated above, GPB is beyond 'just another bike game' for many many years. You already have that unique selling proposition since a long time and it is not even scratched by any title. For you there is no reason whatsoever to push physics at this point. What you need is to cover the market asap. A situation like you are experiencing with KRP concerning KK should be a warning sign. You drew the right conclusion by assuming that you need to be ahead in terms of mods. But you fail to realize that the motivation for developing mods needs a big community, and a growing community will only come with working online competition.

Before you feel like I am a real pain in the ass bothering you: I do not want to bother you, I know it is your project and you have every right to develop it whichever way you feel. BUT, I love GPB and I want it to be a success. And from numerous remarks from you I know that you not only want your projects to be the best sims, you also need them to be financially successful to some degree.Yet, you fail to act accordingly. The way you develop your projects atm, resembles more or less the way of a financially independent dev, who is just doing it for the cause. If that was your situation, then you just would not have to bother whether you are succesfull in terms of sales, you could be content to know you have the best physics sims. But unless I totally misunderstood your posts concerning the need for sales, this is not your situation. But if you continue to develop like you do, then you have to live with the possible consequences ... And if you were in fact not concerned about that though, then I would not understand why you would freak out if a new dev announces threatening competition (like KK). In that respect, you do not seem to act logically consistent.

That will be my final remarks on that matter, though I pretty much assume my efforts are in vain anyhow... 
Title: Re: General netcode/physics debate.
Post by: doubledragoncc on February 25, 2016, 10:23:36 PM
I dont know about anyone else but surely the core crashes should be a priority as it dont matter if online works or the physics are perfect if you get 4 core crashes in 20 mins as you cant do a bloody thing and just get pissed off. Yes I have full clean install, 990 on different tracks, also before I even selected to ride etc etc. If the game itself is permanently crashing what good is online and physics?

Just sayin

DD
Title: Re: General netcode/physics debate.
Post by: BOBR6 84 on February 26, 2016, 07:59:53 AM
@Stout

hey man your opinion is a great one! (always is  ;)) and i pretty much agree with most of what you said above.. The difference for me personally is that i play all kinds of bike games.. for online bike racing i don't just stick to GPB. i can play motogp, ride, trials, whatever..

What keeps me coming back to GPB is the physics.. and the fact that it strives for realism. I don't consider myself to be a sim racer in general but i do like simulation.. (i ride and race bikes and im always comparing games/sim to my own experiences) So if piboso carries on improving the physics and tidying some things up, sticking to the hardcore simulator route.. then that is my realism ''fix'' sorted!  ;)

i will still play other bike ''games'' BUT would/will always support GPB!

What annoys me about other bike games is that they are ALL dumbed down to suit the casual player.. Whereas Piboso sticks two fingers up to all of that, which is awesome!!  8)

Another view is that alot of people just want to play/race multiplayer with a stable, user friendly bike.. like i said, i already play lots of bike games online.. with GPB i would like to see the bike physics complete and polished, instead of ''quick fixes'' just to be able to race online.. (although i agree the physics already are very advanced!)

Also.. don't get me wrong, i find the core.exe problems EXTREMELY frustrating..... and i think when everything comes together at the end, GPB will be an incredible online bike racing simulator! hopefully  8) :)



Title: Re: General netcode/physics debate.
Post by: HornetMaX on February 26, 2016, 11:25:38 AM
Not trying to convince whoever, I know it's wasted time (and I guess Stout feels the same), but what's the point of having the ultimate modafukka physics simulation if one can't actually use it ?

Nobody is asking to dumb-down GPB physics: physics is what makes GPB good. But the stability/online issues are what makes GPB bad.

I could have in my garage a beautiful 1290 SuperDukeR with its stock exhaust and totally fucked up tyres: putting an aftermarket exhaust would make it even more bad-ass, but changing the tyres would allow me to actually use it. I could spend the money for the exhaust right now and then wait to pile up the quids for the tyres: in the while, I can't use it. Or I could swap the tyres now and wait to pile up for the exhaust: in the while I can use it. Between the two, I know what I'd pick. It's just that simple.
Title: Re: General netcode/physics debate.
Post by: teeds on February 26, 2016, 11:59:01 AM
Is it possible to buy off the shelf netcode for games?
Title: Re: General netcode/physics debate.
Post by: HornetMaX on February 26, 2016, 12:04:03 PM
Quote from: teeds on February 26, 2016, 11:59:01 AM
Is it possible to buy off the shelf netcode for games?
Unlikely. And it's not even sure it would solve our issues. The reasons of the crashes are not necessarily located in the netcode.
Title: Re: General netcode/physics debate.
Post by: Boerenlater on February 26, 2016, 12:08:21 PM
I wonder if our Piboso actually might know what exactly causes it.
Title: Re: General netcode/physics debate.
Post by: doubledragoncc on February 26, 2016, 12:10:14 PM
It never gets put in the daily update that it is actually being worked on!!!

DD
Title: Re: General netcode/physics debate.
Post by: HornetMaX on February 26, 2016, 12:11:29 PM
Quote from: doubledragoncc on February 26, 2016, 12:10:14 PM
It never gets put in the daily update that it is actually being worked on!!!
Because it's not being worked on. That's the whole point some of us have been trying to push forward in the last 3 or more years.
Title: Re: General netcode/physics debate.
Post by: h106frp on February 26, 2016, 12:12:11 PM
I am not sure that the existing netcode is really that bad it just seems to handle exceptions badly. Part of the problem seems to be that the result of an error is very inconvenient for the end user as it just dumps the game for that connection rather than catching the error and handling it gracefully.

As the game scenario has not changed for the other clients still running connections (i.e. server side is still happy) i do not see why the currently corrupt data cycle causing the fatal error cannot be refreshed on the next cycle from the server. I would rather have a millisecond refresh 'stutter' rather than a core.exe desktop crash.
Title: Re: General netcode/physics debate.
Post by: HornetMaX on February 26, 2016, 12:21:01 PM
But there's more: sometimes the server itself goes nuts, not the clients. And we do have offline crashes (no netcode or server involved).
It's not even sure it's a matter of just "handling exceptions nicely". Some errors just do not allow you to carry on.
Title: Re: General netcode/physics debate.
Post by: Hawk on February 26, 2016, 12:24:18 PM
Quote from: HornetMaX on February 26, 2016, 12:04:03 PM
Quote from: teeds on February 26, 2016, 11:59:01 AM
Is it possible to buy off the shelf netcode for games?
Unlikely. And it's not even sure it would solve our issues. The reasons of the crashes are not necessarily located in the netcode.

Try this..... It's called, "RAKNET":

http://www.jenkinssoftware.com/index.old.html (http://www.jenkinssoftware.com/index.old.html)

I believe this is "The" FREE multi-player code solution for the games industry. It used to have a $2,000 dollar license fee but since Occulus bought it they now license it for free to developers.
Whether it could be used efficiently with Pibos's code? Only Piboso can know that, but it's there if he wants to try it.   ;)

Hawk.
Title: Re: General netcode/physics debate.
Post by: BOBR6 84 on February 26, 2016, 07:44:33 PM
Quote from: HornetMaX on February 26, 2016, 11:25:38 AM
Not trying to convince whoever, I know it's wasted time (and I guess Stout feels the same), but what's the point of having the ultimate modafukka physics simulation if one can't actually use it ?

I do understand what you are saying, but that's not entirely true.. Not had much time to play so far this year but the past couple of years before christmas i was playing quite often.. even long periods of playing every single day! As you can see from most of my basic shitty video's, most of it is riding alone in testing, amusing myself with the bike physics!

Sure, some big issues when you venture online, but even that doesn't stop people..

Personally i think the number of players is low because not everybody wants full on simulation. I bought a PS4  :P if i go online on motogp there is literally hundreds of players (sometimes) and thousands on the leaderboards.

The people that want a bike sim will find their way here (i did) and will stick around regardless..
Title: Re: General netcode/physics debate.
Post by: Hawk on February 26, 2016, 09:32:44 PM
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on February 26, 2016, 07:44:33 PM
Quote from: HornetMaX on February 26, 2016, 11:25:38 AM
Not trying to convince whoever, I know it's wasted time (and I guess Stout feels the same), but what's the point of having the ultimate modafukka physics simulation if one can't actually use it ?

I do understand what you are saying, but that's not entirely true.. Not had much time to play so far this year but the past couple of years before christmas i was playing quite often.. even long periods of playing every single day! As you can see from most of my basic shitty video's, most of it is riding alone in testing, amusing myself with the bike physics!

Sure, some big issues when you venture online, but even that doesn't stop people..

Personally i think the number of players is low because not everybody wants full on simulation. I bought a PS4  :P if i go online on motogp there is literally hundreds of players (sometimes) and thousands on the leaderboards.

The people that want a bike sim will find their way here (i did) and will stick around regardless..

A question Bob: Would you have bought GPBikes if you knew it didn't have multi-player capability and all you could do was ride around tracks all on your own?

I think the physics is very important and something that puts GPBikes at the top of the racing bike simulation category, but I also think that a stable network/multiplayer capability is just as important for the large market sales I believe GPB could have if the multi-player was stable..... I mean the more people who played in events online the more self-generating the sales would become from others who see it and hear about it and want to be part of it. Multiplayer is MASSIVE nowadays!  ;D

Food for thought:
Riding around on your own is okay for a bit of practice and to initially get used to riding a bike in GPB, but you'll never get that feeling of striving to be the best and win races without participating in online events. Plus you'll never become proficient at racing close in with other riders by riding on your own, so you'll never know what your real skills are in GPB without riding online amongst other riders, so any fast times you do alone on track are pretty irrelevant if your incapable of riding fast in the heat of battle too, don't you think?  ;)

This is why for me personally, hotlapping for the fastest lap time is a totally senseless pursuit...... I mean how many times do you see someone put in a shit-hot lap time and yet come race day they end up down the field because they can't race? I've seen it many times, and recently too. The reality is that they concentrate SO much on hot-lapping that they forget how to race.  :)

Anyway, I'll get off my soap-box before I start sounding like an old man. Hehe  ;D

Hawk.



Title: Re: General netcode/physics debate.
Post by: grimm on February 27, 2016, 07:23:25 AM
I made it online once, waaaaay back in the Alpha days, and got chewed out about my name being the defaultProfile and my race number matching someone elses on track. I live with a dog shit anxiety problem so I shy away from anything multiplayer, and that experience made me a little apprehensive about joining up on a server again, so I've been the local stunt rider on the forums due to it.

I swear if the netcode issues get fixed and there is open "track day" type servers around where it's just pick up and go, run a few laps over coffee before work, I would be all about it. But for that, as many have said, the code needs cleaned up and we need more people online at any given time. Piboso is right, if we want to just "race online" there is plenty of ways to do it, but back at Piboso, we want to race GP Bikes online. I want to see a rider in front of me catch a wobble so bad they nearly eat tarmac from it, recover, and come rocketing past on the apex of the last turn at Victoria and win the race! I want to pick up a wheelie and come screaming through 3 gears of unicycle mode as people pit out and see me doing my hooligan things around the track. I want to put a hand up and move out of the racing line to let a faster rider past, and let them know I am giving them the, "Hey, I know you are there, go on by, I'm slower.". It will be so cool when it happens!

I never speak up about much around here because this place is so decent about getting points across. But this is one thing I can get onboard with and say that I support the guys saying netcode is a big deal. Dunno what else to say that won't sound like I am picking at the same old things everyone has been on about, so I'll leave it where it's at typed out. I'm not crying for improved netcode, I'm not saying it should be top priority, I'm just saying, someone that is extremely reclusive is participating in your community you have built, and at a rather public level at that, and I would delve deeper into getting to know you all on the track if the green light lit up over there not being a bunch of issues with us meeting up to ride. :)
Title: Re: General netcode/physics debate.
Post by: Napalm Nick on February 27, 2016, 10:02:33 AM
Quote from: grimm on February 27, 2016, 07:23:25 AM
I want to see a rider in front of me catch a wobble so bad they nearly eat tarmac from it, recover, and come rocketing past on the apex of the last turn at Victoria and win the race! I want to pick up a wheelie and come screaming through 3 gears of unicycle mode as people pit out and see me doing my hooligan things around the track. I want to put a hand up and move out of the racing line to let a faster rider past, and let them know I am giving them the, "Hey, I know you are there, go on by, I'm slower.". It will be so cool when it happens!

That is all happening now brother, especially that hand in the air stuff - I do it every race when I get lapped lol!

But you are right, there are issues I the races that upset even the hardiest of us fools.

I totally understand and agree with all your points mate and races may not be the best place while it still cores out but I think you will find a lot of fun in the hotlap and practice sessions and really hope to see you make it online  !  Maybe you would like to try it with just one or two of us at first or something. Call anytime.

Keep that wheel up mate!
Title: Re: General netcode/physics debate.
Post by: Hawk on February 27, 2016, 10:23:41 AM
Quote from: grimm on February 27, 2016, 07:23:25 AM
I made it online once, waaaaay back in the Alpha days, and got chewed out about my name being the defaultProfile and my race number matching someone elses on track. I live with a dog shit anxiety problem so I shy away from anything multiplayer, and that experience made me a little apprehensive about joining up on a server again, so I've been the local stunt rider on the forums due to it.

I swear if the netcode issues get fixed and there is open "track day" type servers around where it's just pick up and go, run a few laps over coffee before work, I would be all about it. But for that, as many have said, the code needs cleaned up and we need more people online at any given time. Piboso is right, if we want to just "race online" there is plenty of ways to do it, but back at Piboso, we want to race GP Bikes online. I want to see a rider in front of me catch a wobble so bad they nearly eat tarmac from it, recover, and come rocketing past on the apex of the last turn at Victoria and win the race! I want to pick up a wheelie and come screaming through 3 gears of unicycle mode as people pit out and see me doing my hooligan things around the track. I want to put a hand up and move out of the racing line to let a faster rider past, and let them know I am giving them the, "Hey, I know you are there, go on by, I'm slower.". It will be so cool when it happens!

I never speak up about much around here because this place is so decent about getting points across. But this is one thing I can get onboard with and say that I support the guys saying netcode is a big deal. Dunno what else to say that won't sound like I am picking at the same old things everyone has been on about, so I'll leave it where it's at typed out. I'm not crying for improved netcode, I'm not saying it should be top priority, I'm just saying, someone that is extremely reclusive is participating in your community you have built, and at a rather public level at that, and I would delve deeper into getting to know you all on the track if the green light lit up over there not being a bunch of issues with us meeting up to ride. :)

Well said mate!  ;)
That is exactly the point..... That riders who like to race online don't want to race online with the crappy Milestone rubbish(only put up with it because it's their only option), we want to race online with the best, "GPBikes". And like I said, multiplayer online racing is massive nowadays but those that would buy GPBikes know about the online instability issues so they won't buy unless or until GPBikes is fully multiplayer network stable.

I know myself that when anyone comes online with the default "UnamedProfile" name that we do have a little bit of friendly banter with them, but it's not anything malicious or at all intended to belittle them.  ;)
Best thing for anyone to do when they first install GPB is to click "Profile" on the main menu and delete the default profile: "UnamedProfile", and create a new one with their own nickname and race number if they want to avoid any banter coming their way about that.  But were all friendly guys and willing to help other riders, especially if your new to online racing with GPB..... So come online mate and join us.... You know you'd be welcomed. ;D

Hawk.
Title: Re: General netcode/physics debate.
Post by: doubledragoncc on February 27, 2016, 12:09:57 PM
We want grimm, we want grimm......................come on bro its a blast even with the bad points, riding with the guys from here makes up for all the problems there are. It is sooooooooooo worth the try dude. Would be great to get my ass kicked by a brother lol.

DD
Title: Re: General netcode/physics debate.
Post by: BOBR6 84 on February 28, 2016, 03:26:36 AM
Quote from: Hawk on February 26, 2016, 09:32:44 PM
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on February 26, 2016, 07:44:33 PM
Quote from: HornetMaX on February 26, 2016, 11:25:38 AM
Not trying to convince whoever, I know it's wasted time (and I guess Stout feels the same), but what's the point of having the ultimate modafukka physics simulation if one can't actually use it ?

I do understand what you are saying, but that's not entirely true.. Not had much time to play so far this year but the past couple of years before christmas i was playing quite often.. even long periods of playing every single day! As you can see from most of my basic shitty video's, most of it is riding alone in testing, amusing myself with the bike physics!

Sure, some big issues when you venture online, but even that doesn't stop people..

Personally i think the number of players is low because not everybody wants full on simulation. I bought a PS4  :P if i go online on motogp there is literally hundreds of players (sometimes) and thousands on the leaderboards.

The people that want a bike sim will find their way here (i did) and will stick around regardless..

A question Bob: Would you have bought GPBikes if you knew it didn't have multi-player capability and all you could do was ride around tracks all on your own?

I think the physics is very important and something that puts GPBikes at the top of the racing bike simulation category, but I also think that a stable network/multiplayer capability is just as important for the large market sales I believe GPB could have if the multi-player was stable..... I mean the more people who played in events online the more self-generating the sales would become from others who see it and hear about it and want to be part of it. Multiplayer is MASSIVE nowadays!  ;D

Food for thought:
Riding around on your own is okay for a bit of practice and to initially get used to riding a bike in GPB, but you'll never get that feeling of striving to be the best and win races without participating in online events. Plus you'll never become proficient at racing close in with other riders by riding on your own, so you'll never know what your real skills are in GPB without riding online amongst other riders, so any fast times you do alone on track are pretty irrelevant if your incapable of riding fast in the heat of battle too, don't you think?  ;)

This is why for me personally, hotlapping for the fastest lap time is a totally senseless pursuit...... I mean how many times do you see someone put in a shit-hot lap time and yet come race day they end up down the field because they can't race? I've seen it many times, and recently too. The reality is that they concentrate SO much on hot-lapping that they forget how to race.  :)

Anyway, I'll get off my soap-box before I start sounding like an old man. Hehe  ;D

Hawk.

QuoteA question Bob: Would you have bought GPBikes if you knew it didn't have multi-player capability and all you could do was ride around tracks all on your own?

Yes, absolutely!

QuoteI think the physics is very important and something that puts GPBikes at the top of the racing bike simulation category, but I also think that a stable network/multiplayer capability is just as important for the large market sales I believe GPB could have if the multi-player was stable..... I mean the more people who played in events online the more self-generating the sales would become from others who see it and hear about it and want to be part of it. Multiplayer is MASSIVE nowadays!  ;D

I agree multiplayer is what most people want.. Don't get me wrong, i want it too!

QuoteFood for thought:
Riding around on your own is okay for a bit of practice and to initially get used to riding a bike in GPB, but you'll never get that feeling of striving to be the best and win races without participating in online events. Plus you'll never become proficient at racing close in with other riders by riding on your own, so you'll never know what your real skills are in GPB without riding online amongst other riders, so any fast times you do alone on track are pretty irrelevant if your incapable of riding fast in the heat of battle too, don't you think?  ;)

This is why for me personally, hotlapping for the fastest lap time is a totally senseless pursuit...... I mean how many times do you see someone put in a shit-hot lap time and yet come race day they end up down the field because they can't race? I've seen it many times, and recently too. The reality is that they concentrate SO much on hot-lapping that they forget how to race.  :)

That's the difference here for me.. with GPB there is enough within the physics to keep a grin on my face! To polish it further its going to be amazing!!  8)

As for the competitive side of things.. Been down that road with other bike games.. its life consuming lol.

Time attack is something i have always enjoyed.. If you do enough laps, when it comes to the racing you will be in control of the bike ON or OFF the racing line. Besides, no matter what you race, the actual racing is something you do AFTER putting in all the time and effort practicing.

GPB is still pretty damn good online as it is.. just like the physics, some more improvement and it will be MEGA!!

I really do understand and agree with what alot of you guys are saying.. its just a personal view that if piboso thinks that finishing off the physics first is the way to go, then im good with it!

Anyway, since when has piboso cared about sales?? lol  ;D ;D ;D It's been this way for what? 8-9 years??



Title: Re: General netcode/physics debate.
Post by: Hawk on February 28, 2016, 12:44:21 PM
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on February 28, 2016, 03:26:36 AM
If you do enough laps, when it comes to the racing you will be in control of the bike ON or OFF the racing line. Besides, no matter what you race, the actual racing is something you do AFTER putting in all the time and effort practicing.


I hear what your saying above Bob, but I would disagree with you on your point I quoted above.  :)

The reason I disagree is because in my experience, if your just racing around on your own all the time, then yes I agree that you will become proficient at handling the bike but only in a stable continuous way(if you know what I mean?). I mean it's one thing to be able to handle the bike in a long foreseen race line, but if you suddenly get into a situation were your riding with another rider who is as fast as you and can continually keep up pace with you and close to you, then can a rider who is not used to those circumstances handle that continuous pressure without making mistakes and crashing, or worse, causing the other rider to crash or both? It's all part of learning to race to being able to handle those situations.

I've seen so many fast riders who catch up on slower riders and don't give them any respect and undercut them or crash into them going into corners. That to me is a result of them not knowing how to actually: (a)manage a race, or (b) race a bike. Yes they can ride a bike fast, but that doesn't make them a good bike racer.  :)
As a racer a rider should expect to lose time when you catch up to a slower rider, but unless there is an obvious gap that you can fly through at speed then a rider should hold caution and stay behind and pick his time to pass. There are some good riders that actually do this, but the vast majority of the "hot-lap brigade"(controversial phrase. Hehe  ;D ) haven't got a clue how to handle this type of situation other than try and blast past them at the slightest chance and often causing crashes by doing so.

A recent good example of a guy who really knows how to race was the last GP of 2015 in "Valentino Rossi". Now there was a prime example of how an obviously faster rider should work his way up through a field of slower riders... Amazing demonstration of how it should be done!  ;D

But this is why I think the online events should be the more realistic full race lap events rather than the short 10 - 15 lap sprint races that obviously promote the fast hotlap guys more than riders who have the ability to use strategy and race skills together..... A bit like the famous tortoise and the hair race! Hehe  ;D

But no, I don't believe anyone can learn to actually race a bike in GPB without getting online and riding with other riders on track to learn those close in skills of being able to handle the pressures of close in racing battles with other riders.  :)

This is quite often why when you get a good fast hot-lapper who manages to get into the lead early in the race, they often blast off ahead and win the race. But you put that same rider in a situation where for example he crashes in the first corner and ends up well down the field, they make a mess of the race and often only finish in mid-field positions, or rage quite. Lol.

No disrespect to anyone, but fast hot-lap times, yes impressive that they can ride that fast, but it really doesn't mean a thing as far as racing is concerned in my book. In fact I just think that so long as I can keep within 4 - 5 secs of that guy and ride consistently without crashing at that time difference then the chances are that I'd beat him.  :P

So no, I don't believe you can learn to actually race a bike in GPB by riding alone offline no matter what hot-lap times you achieve by riding on your own.

Just my opinion of course, but that's the way I see it from my experience of online racing.  :)

Hawk.
Title: Re: General netcode/physics debate.
Post by: Phathry25 on February 28, 2016, 05:48:23 PM
Anyone see the kickstarter for Big Ant Dirt Track?  The game the dirt track racing community has been begging for for years and years.  It has everything they've been asking for, track deformation based on wetness, all the cars, modability, realistic physics, etc... everything anyone has asked for over the past 10 years to be a part of a dirt track game has been offered.  The one thing nobody asked for because it was a given, online play.  Yup, in 2016 a PC racing title that doesn't offer online play.  The kickstarter has been a huge flop.

Do you still think it's not important?
Title: Re: General netcode/physics debate.
Post by: PiBoSo on February 28, 2016, 06:21:18 PM
Quote from: Phathry25 on February 28, 2016, 05:48:23 PM
Anyone see the kickstarter for Big Ant Dirt Track?  The game the dirt track racing community has been begging for for years and years.  It has everything they've been asking for, track deformation based on wetness, all the cars, modability, realistic physics, etc... everything anyone has asked for over the past 10 years to be a part of a dirt track game has been offered.  The one thing nobody asked for because it was a given, online play.  Yup, in 2016 a PC racing title that doesn't offer online play.  The kickstarter has been a huge flop.

Do you still think it's not important?

That sprint car model is much worse than the WRS one  8)
And the presentation in general in not very interesting... Footage from old games, a bunch of guys talking, and the driver walking?!?!!?  ???
WRS is 10x times better  :P
Title: Re: General netcode/physics debate.
Post by: Napalm Nick on February 28, 2016, 06:30:57 PM
Agree but if I am not much mistaken, the underlying point is there is more to the game than physics - it needs a good online experience or its dead.

(http://usercontent1.hubimg.com/7314624_f260.jpg)

;D
Title: Re: General netcode/physics debate.
Post by: Alby46 on February 28, 2016, 07:36:28 PM
Quote from: Napalm Nick on February 28, 2016, 06:30:57 PM
Agree but if I am not much mistaken, the underlying point is there is more to the game than physics - it needs a good online experience or its dead.

(http://usercontent1.hubimg.com/7314624_f260.jpg)

;D
exactly
Title: Re: General netcode/physics debate.
Post by: Phathry25 on February 28, 2016, 11:50:57 PM
Quote from: PiBoSo on February 28, 2016, 06:21:18 PMThat sprint car model is much worse than the WRS one  8)
And the presentation in general in not very interesting... Footage from old games, a bunch of guys talking, and the driver walking?!?!!?  ???
WRS is 10x times better  :P

10x only?  Don't sell yourself short.
Title: Re: General netcode/physics debate.
Post by: PiBoSo on February 29, 2016, 12:06:12 AM
Quote from: Phathry25 on February 28, 2016, 11:50:57 PM
Quote from: PiBoSo on February 28, 2016, 06:21:18 PMThat sprint car model is much worse than the WRS one  8)
And the presentation in general in not very interesting... Footage from old games, a bunch of guys talking, and the driver walking?!?!!?  ???
WRS is 10x times better  :P

10x only?  Don't sell yourself short.

;D