PiBoSo Official Forum

Hi guys,
i'm working on a serious controller prototype for a counter steering with FFB experience for GPbikes. But to avoid complex engeneering with servo motor etc and keep the cost viable for an eventual commercial plan etc.... i'll be making an "attacheable" system to a Logitech G25/27/29 Wheel for the FFB. of course if the prototype is good enough, i'll be planning to sale it but for now it's just a prototype.

As DD, i'll be using real motorcycle part for handlebar, lever, etc ... and 3D printed for specific parts.

I cannot say yet how the counter steering will work, but it will be a very simple but efficient way to controll gpbikes (no load cell, no complex axes .....)

I'm still on the mechanical engeenering (waiting for my 3D printer to be delivered) for the linear to radial movement translation for potentiometer.

Here i'm now

yesss, somebody is finally doing it!!

so this will (theoretically) give proper feedback from the wheels and simulate "gyroscopic steering resistance" at high speed?

for the ffd it will work with your own logotech wheel ffb, the gyro res is much dependant of  gpbikes itself, irl the fastest you go the lighter the bar is, gpbikes seems to do the oposite know with ffb . the controller will have an input for steering and another for leaning. complete analog handlebar controll and foot control.

Best of luck with the project PP

Reminds me of an old system back in 2010 using the G27, found the deadzone at center of Logitaech wheels ruined it though so think about another wheel than the G series maybe

Here my worst video eva of it lol

https://www.youtube.com/v/JDhvXkO_vZA

Look forward to first pics and videos m8

DD

thx DD, i didnt know about logitech center dead zone, is this really from the wheel or from game that are developped for gamepad ? i see you dismounted the wheel to place the handlebar,im aiming not to dismount the wheel but directly plug the handle bar on top of the wheel, for praticity and to not dedicate the wheel for bike game only. the g wheel is i think my only choice if i want ffd wich is a must have for a counter steering controller and the most viable choice if i want to make the commercial step cause of the larger user database they have compared to thrustmaster or fanatec.

It is a Logitech wheel problem and bad for bikes lol

I used it only as a test unit. I did design a clamp on handlebar for ANY wheel system but never bothered doing more with it.

Thrustmaster make better wheel base units and you can get them without a wheel too

DD

Quote from: vini97 on July 27, 2017, 03:23:25 PM
yesss, somebody is finally doing it!!

so this will (theoretically) give proper feedback from the wheels and simulate "gyroscopic steering resistance" at high speed?

Dunno why, but bikers seems to have a real fetish for "gyroscopic forces" (that seems to be true for MXB too).

Gyro forces are in GPB/MXB, as it uses an implicit representation (multi-body model, describing the bike "parts" and how they are allowed to move/rotate with respect to each others), unless you tell GPB that your wheel has zero inertia. There's no explicit "gyroscopic code" or "effect", there's nothing a FFB controller could do about that.

Quote from: poumpouny on July 27, 2017, 04:09:59 PM
the controller will have an input for steering and another for leaning. complete analog handlebar controll and foot control.

By lean input you mean rider lean, right ?
If the steering input is the g27 steering, where do you put the lean input ?

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 27, 2017, 06:59:29 PM

Quote from: vini97 on July 27, 2017, 03:23:25 PM
yesss, somebody is finally doing it!!

so this will (theoretically) give proper feedback from the wheels and simulate "gyroscopic steering resistance" at high speed?

Dunno why, but bikers seems to have a real fetish for "gyroscopic forces" (that seems to be true for MXB too).

Gyro forces are in GPB/MXB, as it uses an implicit representation (multi-body model, describing the bike "parts" and how they are allowed to move/rotate with respect to each others), unless you tell GPB that your wheel has zero inertia. There's no explicit "gyroscopic code" or "effect", there's nothing a FFB controller could do about that.

I was simply talking about the steering requiring more force the faster you go, Max. I called it "gyroscopic steering resistance" because the gyro forces of the wheels are the cause for the bike resisting your steering inputs.
This effect can only be replicated/simulated/felt/whatever by a controller with a separate steering axis (independet from lean axis) equipped with FFB (actual torque output, not rumble). ...Just like (temporary) misalignment of the front wheel (either due to the front tucking or the rear stepping out).

Quote from: vini97 on July 27, 2017, 08:39:11 PM
I was simply talking about the steering requiring more force the faster you go, Max. I called it "gyroscopic steering resistance" because the gyro forces of the wheels are the cause for the bike resisting your steering inputs.
This effect can only be replicated/simulated/felt/whatever by a controller with a separate steering axis (independet from lean axis) equipped with FFB (actual torque output, not rumble). ...Just like (temporary) misalignment of the front wheel (either due to the front tucking or the rear stepping out).

Just to be sure, What do you mean with " a controller with a separate steering axis (independet from lean axis)" ?

Because a g27 with DST 1 (torque) does exactly what you want, but there's no lean axis (unless you mean rider lean).

IRL 80% of the bike lean come from the steering input an 20% from the rider lean, the g wheel will input the Steering and a traking hardware will track rider movement. The ultimate controller would be : a g wheel for steer an edtracker for rider lean and a motion system to lean a frame feedbacking the bike lean. so gp bikes will receive steer and rider lean input from the controller and the send back the resulting bike lean angle into the motion system.
but motion system is too much expensive and i dont have nor the money neither the knowledge to build such a system.
so it will be a simple fixed frame with a g wheel plus the handle bar and an edtracker attacher to rider head.

To use it you have to counter steer  with handlebar and lean your body like irl using the help of the ffd and the rider leaning to keep rider not falling in dst mode.

Quote from: poumpouny on July 28, 2017, 05:33:08 AM
IRL 80% of the bike lean come from the steering input an 20% from the rider lean

Uh ? Not sure what you mean here (but OK for the edtracker for rider lean).

Starting to feel my designs and ideas are getting used more and more

Patents are pending so please respect that

DD

Just order a G29 Wheel to be delivered tommorow, lol lets hope they fixed the dead zone on G29 Wheel i'm super exited to test FFD and finnaly test WRS  :o, this was first step to do if i want to test my prototype on G Wheel of cours i need a GWheel :) hard to convice my wife of the utility to buying a G29 Wheel but an help from my 9 years old son (wich is an huge fan of car racing ) finally bring my wife into reason   ;D

Edit : DD what design ary you talking about ? the way to controll rider lean with ed tracker ? I'don't think it's patentable lol, and with the huge respect i have for you i've been using it since one year now take a look at my thread on my  Diy controller with me being ridiculous with phone on my hand http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=3878.0 (http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=3878.0) Wich is very patentable and witch you could really deposit as soos as possible is your SPSS system, your work on controller is just awesome and i respect you sincerelly, if i wanted to copy your work i could just replicate your MTE unit wich you post all technical picture on this forum, but as you can see, i've redesigned mine inspired by your of course but i didn't copy it i totaly redesigned it !

I'm not pretending to be your concurent, and couldn't even if i want compared to you're background and skill into building controllers. I'm just a geek guy wich love building thing on my garage and share it on internet.

So please don't think i'm copying or pirating your concept.

Poumpouny

just bustin ya balls m8

I dont care if anything I do gets copied it shows people like it lol. I just want as many to enjoy bike games as much as possible but yes my SPSS is my baby lol.

I might be able to help you with some stuff but by PM only ok

DD

Thanx DD, i think my 2-3 next day will be playing with G29  :P i'll surelly ask you when i go deep Inside that, thanx for your generosity  :D

Set rotation to 40 degrees to start with and work from there

Have fun

DD

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 27, 2017, 10:02:46 PM

Quote from: vini97 on July 27, 2017, 08:39:11 PM
I was simply talking about the steering requiring more force the faster you go, Max. I called it "gyroscopic steering resistance" because the gyro forces of the wheels are the cause for the bike resisting your steering inputs.
This effect can only be replicated/simulated/felt/whatever by a controller with a separate steering axis (independet from lean axis) equipped with FFB (actual torque output, not rumble). ...Just like (temporary) misalignment of the front wheel (either due to the front tucking or the rear stepping out).

Just to be sure, What do you mean with " a controller with a separate steering axis (independet from lean axis)" ?

Because a g27 with DST 1 (torque) does exactly what you want, but there's no lean axis (unless you mean rider lean).

yes, sorry, should've clarified that.
a controller without a bike lean axis would be overall less immersive IMO.

Hi guys,

So i've experienced the G29 Wheel with DST and after almost 1 week of pain and frustration (yes it is very frustrating no being able to even get out of the pit hahahaha) i fanally managed to get a full lap without crashing in victoria.
I have my "Directsteer maxtorque setting to -120 (note the negative value to get real contersteering) and maxtorque 2 to default 0.5. I'm controlling rider lean with my phone on my head (i think DST is unusable without manual rider lean controll).

After the whole week with DST, my admiration and respect to Klax increase exponentially, lol, how the hell can he ride like he does in DST and with just a Gamepad O_o. So i think the concept of DST with FFB and headtracker to controll rider lean is working for a counter steering controller, no need of a 2axis steering hardware(steer and lean). Sure it need lot of practice but once you get the setting you feel good with and get used to it, it becomes natural, like real bike IRL !

https://www.youtube.com/v/bnINhTu9B_Q&feature=youtu.be

Quote from: poumpouny on August 07, 2017, 07:04:11 AM
Hi guys,

So i've experienced the G29 Wheel with DST and after almost 1 week of pain and frustration (yes it is very frustrating no being able to even get out of the pit hahahaha) i fanally managed to get a full lap without crashing in victoria.
I have my "Directsteer maxtorque setting to -120 (note the negative value to get real contersteering) and maxtorque 2 to default 0.5. I'm controlling rider lean with my phone on my head (i think DST is unusable without manual rider lean controll).

Did you try DSA instead of DST ? On the paper it should be the closest thing to the real deal.

Hornet max, i tryed DSA but there is 2 major problem with DSA :

First i don't know if it's a bike geometrie problem (i'm Using Manu's 2017 moto 2) but the bike keep woobling all the way, i think it's not a problem but it just work as it is supposed to be (match the Virtual handle bar with my Wheel). With DST, only the torque (force generated by the bike steering and the bike Weight) is sent to your Wheel, not every microscopic angle change in the steering, like DSA does, also with DSA when changing direction quickly, like in  a chicane, you really feel the force you need to apply to the bike to change direction.

Second Throtle doesn't help to keep the bike up when leaning (DST does, as IRL also).

Great work PP

Just started using EdTracker on the shoulder for body movement and will be trying with another on head for look. EdTracker is so good to setup and use.

DD

Quote from: poumpouny on August 07, 2017, 08:28:50 AM
Hornet max, i tryed DSA but there is 2 major problem with DSA :

First i don't know if it's a bike geometrie problem (i'm Using Manu's 2017 moto 2) but the bike keep woobling all the way, i think it's not a problem but it just work as it is supposed to be (match the Virtual handle bar with my Wheel).

Could come from other things too. At speed, the useful steering range is very small, a few degrees. Is this the problem ?

Quote from: poumpouny on August 07, 2017, 08:28:50 AM
With DST, only the torque (force generated by the bike steering and the bike Weight) is sent to your Wheel, not every microscopic angle change in the steering, like DSA does,

Well, with DST, you send evey microscopic change to the torque.
What's the problem ? DSA too sensitive ?

Quote from: poumpouny on August 07, 2017, 08:28:50 AM
also with DSA when changing direction quickly, like in  a chicane, you really feel the force you need to apply to the bike to change direction.

You meant DSA or DST ?
Anyway, you should feel the same force with DST and DSA as they have the same FFB.

Quote from: poumpouny on August 07, 2017, 08:28:50 AM
Second Throtle doesn't help to keep the bike up when leaning (DST does, as IRL also).

Hmm that depends on the bike geometry (and with DSA you'll have to let the wheel a bit loose to allow that).

HornetMax :

QuoteQuote from: poumpouny on Today at 08:28:50 AM
Hornet max, i tryed DSA but there is 2 major problem with DSA :

First i don't know if it's a bike geometrie problem (i'm Using Manu's 2017 moto 2) but the bike keep woobling all the way, i think it's not a problem but it just work as it is supposed to be (match the Virtual handle bar with my Wheel).

Could come from other things too. At speed, the useful steering range is very small, a few degrees. Is this the problem ?

The problem is that the Wheel never get stable, even on the Mugello long straigh, it is woobling, you have to counter this all the way, wich does'n happen in DST, in DST the bike only wooble when you hit to high kerb, to much acceleration on corner out, hard braking etc .... tonight, i'll try other bike to be sure it's not the bike

QuoteQuote from: poumpouny on Today at 08:28:50 AM
With DST, only the torque (force generated by the bike steering and the bike Weight) is sent to your Wheel, not every microscopic angle change in the steering, like DSA does,

Well, with DST, you send evey microscopic change to the torque.
What's the problem ? DSA too sensitive

Yes but microscopic torque you don't even notice, but microscopic angle, because of the very small steering angle at high speed, it influence your driving a lot,


Quote from: poumpouny on Today at 08:28:50 AM
also with DSA when changing direction quickly, like in  a chicane, you really feel the force you need to apply to the bike to change direction.

You meant DSA or DST ?
Anyway, you should feel the same force with DST and DSA as they have the same FFB.

Quote

Sorry i mean DST

QuoteSecond Throtle doesn't help to keep the bike up when leaning (DST does, as IRL also).

Hmm that depends on the bike geometry (and with DSA you'll have to let the wheel a bit loose to allow that).

in my case whatever acceleration i give, it doesnt affect the bike balance at all !

DD, yes it is really a game changer to controll the rider lean with you own body ! on your CBR frame it could be excellent !

Quote from: poumpouny on August 07, 2017, 09:39:24 AM
The problem is that the Wheel never get stable, even on the Mugello long straigh, it is woobling, you have to counter this all the way

Does this happen with FFB off ?
If with FFB off it doesn't happen, then it's something for PiBoSo to have a look to (assuming it doesn't come from the bike, of course).

Hello,
I am new on this forum. Before buying the GP bikes game I tried the demo.
I want to built a motorbike rig with real commands as counter steer, clutch, up/down shift, twisted throttle, front and rear brake.
The counter steering is the most important thing that able to feel as real motorbike.

But I have a problem with counter steer and need your help.
The bike is very unballanced when I am playing on "hardcore" mode at low speed. I am not able to drive it, the biker always fall what ever I do.

What could be the problem?
I watched the video below, and I know that it is not easy to drive it at low speed but it seems to me that it is impossible.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcQEJG_0mrs&t=107s

Is there a solution? a setup? or am I missing something?

I am playing with G27 and I added the hardcore mode in the profile.
[hardcore]
directsteer=2
directsteer_maxangle=20

Another question:
What is DSA and DST (sorry if it is a stupid question)

Hi DRZ !

when i play in DST/DSA mode, at very low speed, i just center my steering and balance the bike with rider lean (controlled by a DIY headtracker) very difficult to handle the bike in low speed with steering.

DST = Direct Steer with Torque, wich mean, GPB convert your input signal (no matter gamepad, wheel or real torque input) into a torque, then apply it to the virtual handle bar, then handle bar "turn" depending on how much torque you"re applying (on a wheel the torque depend on how far you turn the wheel). then gp bikes calculate the lean angle resulting from the handle bar angle that is resulting the torque.

DSA = Direct Steer with Angle, it just match the virtual handlebar rotation to you're input rotation, then calculate the resulting bike lean from that.

In all case, there is no "leaning limit" you have to find the lean limit of the bike your self, and of course you'll fall if you exceed the lean angle limit of a bike (depend on bike, tyre grip, COG etcc ....)

Poumpouny, thank you for your reply.

I have more question :) I will be pleased if you can answer them.

How do you activate the DST or DSA mode? (I am using the demo of GPBikes)
Which one do you use and prefer?
Which one would be better for G27 steering?
Did you try to balance the bike without rider lean input? May be the main reason of my "impossible to ride" issue?

Thank you

Here is the link to activate Direct Steer Hardcore mode :

http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=28.0

You'll find the prifile files in : Documents>Piboso>Gpbikes>Username>profile.ini

you put the code in the .inin file then save it, and restart Gpbikes

Concerning DST and DSA, I still didn't choose between the two, in my opinion DSA is more suitable for rapid direction change an is more natural becaus the steering angle match you wheel angle, so i think it is more suitable for wheel. DST in the other side seems to be more precise on small input, and accelleration help you more keep the bike up in DST tha DSA.

Yes i Tryed to balance the bike without rider lean input but the only way i could get out of the pit is use the "low speed" to make the bike straight to the road, and then make a hard acceleration start, wich will be no suitable in race cause you will lose too much time if you fall.