Finally got it figured out!!!
No more potentiometers for brakes and clutch, no more bloody hunting for the right springs and a shite load less 3D printing lol.
So here be the Handlebars with Front Brake and Clutch units to match other parts on the system. Still a work in progress but will be finished with new parts I ordered.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/0993/iozb2bggzqkq3vv6g.jpg)
As you can see still got to test clutch but waiting on new parts. The Transducer for the brake is also gonna be replaced as it is only 150psi and getting 300psi units for clutch and front brake. Transducers fit behind the new all Ali back cover too.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/3bb9/cjhnmsd9s3wypbn6g.jpg)
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/730b/nkaiocmd1wvpzjz6g.jpg)
Rear Brake is GSX-R1000 Rearsets with GSX-R750 Mastercylinder and 500psi Transducer.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/9ce0/dtn255r6qdlhy4m6g.jpg)
Waiting on a 90 degree elbow to hide the transducer better and protect it.
So to some facts about using them. I used 10W40 motor oil instead of brake fluid as it works 100% and can be shipped where as brake fluid can not by all shippers. It sorks as I say just like brake fluid.
Found that when you calibrate in Windows, you can adjust how much presssure you want to aplly at the end point by simply not pressing too hard or as hard as you want. This makes it adjustable to how you use the brakes. Same in GPB and setting up for x360ce. This is such a welcome discovery as it really makes for a much better personal yet realistic feel for the first time. WOOOOOHOOOOOO!!!!
I think if it all works out, ALL Hs3 systems will come standard with full hydraulic units at very little extra cost, maybe an extra 50 quid on top which I think is bloody good.
Heres the current lineup of bars for the Hs3 system:
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/6e05/etofmhr1vw51a7m6g.jpg)
Just need Dorna to get back and let me know whats a happening lol.
Well thats all for now folks. Back when I get new parts and hopefully a vid to go
DD
Looks good. Aren't clutches based on travel and not pressure though?
Many modern bikes have a hydraulic clutch, the clutch springs are what controls the clutch the lever just applys pressure to the actuator.
It should work if I figure it out for movement which is my only worry and then I will simply have a cable clutch lol
DD
I'd tend to agree with teeds: even if a clutch is hydraulic, it's the displacement of the lever that matters.
So it's different with respect to brakes (where it's the pressure that matters).
Not saying it won't work of course.
Your quite right. I will have to design a special unit to give the right amount of movement before the biting point of the clutch. I have had bikes with hydraulic clutch so just have to emulate what I know lol.
But it will still be a first for a bike controller nananananana lol
DD
Cool ! keep up the goodwork brô ;), so you're using load cell ?
Great work DD.... Looking good mate! ;D 8)
Quote from: poumpouny on November 16, 2017, 05:42:29 AM
Cool ! keep up the goodwork brô ;), so you're using load cell ?
No Poum, I use Pressure Transducers. 300psi for front brake 500psi for rear brake. Need to play with clutch to get it right in feel.
DD
this kind ?
https://fr.aliexpress.com/store/product/5V-G1-4-0-1-2-MPa-Hydraulic-Pressure-Sensor-for-Water-Oil-Variable-speed-Pump/1199788_32784470295.html (https://fr.aliexpress.com/store/product/5V-G1-4-0-1-2-MPa-Hydraulic-Pressure-Sensor-for-Water-Oil-Variable-speed-Pump/1199788_32784470295.html)
That kind yes but you must be careful as many give bad resaults and fluctuate to much to be used
DD
Quote from: doubledragoncc on November 15, 2017, 04:51:09 PM
I used 10W40 motor oil instead of brake fluid
If you've put engine oil in your brake system i'd get it out quick, it will screw the rubber seals and hoses.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?source=hp&ei=Gs0OWtnXN8HDgAap_pGwCg&q=engine+oil+in+brake+system&oq=engine+oil+in+brake+system&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0.1717.5857.0.6064.28.27.0.0.0.0.85.1555.26.27.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..1.26.1553.0..46j0i131k1j0i46k1j0i22i30k1.37.Ba9OBAWu3oc (https://www.google.co.uk/search?source=hp&ei=Gs0OWtnXN8HDgAap_pGwCg&q=engine+oil+in+brake+system&oq=engine+oil+in+brake+system&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0.1717.5857.0.6064.28.27.0.0.0.0.85.1555.26.27.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..1.26.1553.0..46j0i131k1j0i46k1j0i22i30k1.37.Ba9OBAWu3oc)
You could try LHM fluid
http://www.morrislubricantsonline.co.uk/lhm-plus-suspension-fluid.html (http://www.morrislubricantsonline.co.uk/lhm-plus-suspension-fluid.html)
Quote from: teeds on November 17, 2017, 11:56:56 AM
Quote from: doubledragoncc on November 15, 2017, 04:51:09 PM
I used 10W40 motor oil instead of brake fluid
If you've put engine oil in your brake system i'd get it out quick, it will screw the rubber seals and hoses.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?source=hp&ei=Gs0OWtnXN8HDgAap_pGwCg&q=engine+oil+in+brake+system&oq=engine+oil+in+brake+system&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0.1717.5857.0.6064.28.27.0.0.0.0.85.1555.26.27.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..1.26.1553.0..46j0i131k1j0i46k1j0i22i30k1.37.Ba9OBAWu3oc (https://www.google.co.uk/search?source=hp&ei=Gs0OWtnXN8HDgAap_pGwCg&q=engine+oil+in+brake+system&oq=engine+oil+in+brake+system&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0.1717.5857.0.6064.28.27.0.0.0.0.85.1555.26.27.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..1.26.1553.0..46j0i131k1j0i46k1j0i22i30k1.37.Ba9OBAWu3oc)
That seems a little contradicting information because if it's the mineral oil that causes the rubber seals to deteriorate then why is there also mineral oil based brake fluids?: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_fluid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_fluid)
Edit: H beat me to the post. Lol. Just what I was looking at there H. ;D
Probably olive oil would work fine too :)
Just change the lines and seals.. Il get the name of the ones iv been using.. Tygon i think..... Never fade, never perrish.. All kinds of fluids
Quote from: Hawk on November 17, 2017, 12:18:50 PM
That seems a little contradicting information because if it's the mineral oil that causes the rubber seals to deteriorate then why is there also mineral oil based brake fluids?: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_fluid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_fluid)
It must use different rubber in the seals, as obviously there's rubber seals in your engine. That LHM fluid states -
"Warning
Suitable only for use in hydraulic systems using a green mineral oil. Please be sure to check the vehicle handbook. Only fill this fluid into Citroën hydraulic reservoirs painted green. Never use in any reservoir painted black. Not to be used in vehicles using vegetable based fluid or synthetic hydraulic oil."
Guessing the black reservoirs are for the cars brakes?
It seems if you use mineral oil based brake fluids you need to make sure your brake systems seals are built for it, but glycol-ether fluids seem to be the norm and I suspect are what your bike brakes are made for. My mountain bike brakes use mineral oil but it clearly states not to use anything else, now I know why.
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on November 17, 2017, 01:02:50 PM
Just change the lines and seals.. Il get the name of the ones iv been using.. Tygon i think..... Never fade, never perrish.. All kinds of fluids
This sounds like the best plan to get around the shipping problem. Or get the customer to fill it their end.
Quote from: teeds on November 17, 2017, 01:33:47 PM
Or get the customer to fill it their end.
I'd do that.
DD sorry for asking if it already was a subject of discussion. But did you try to make the handlebar even more motorcycle like? I mean at this moment it is swinging from left to right like a car wheel. I was thinking if mounting the handlebar to the center of the steering device would allow to mount the device horozontally and push the handlebar instead of swinging it. Anyway I really love your work and new idea of fluid tanks and hope you wont take my question as criticism of any kind.
KG13 > I think it's because DD's handle bar is meant to be a "Lean" input instead of "steer" input, and speaking of lean, swing is more natural than steering and also you don't steer in real bike, you counter steer with a tiny angle, so this will be definitelly unnatural and unrealistic !
Quote from: poumpouny on November 17, 2017, 03:00:08 PM
KG13 > I think it's because DD's handle bar is meant to be a "Lean" input instead of "steer" input, and speaking of lean, swing is more natural than steering and also you don't steer in real bike, you counter steer with a tiny angle, so this will be definitelly unnatural and unrealistic !
When you think about it, Counter Steering is a type of Steering... :-X
As Uberslug said...steering the bike is made by counter steering or by normal handlebar steering when at lower speeds... leaning the bike is the effect of it not a way of steering the bike. I bet you know how counter steering works so...you control the lean of the bike by pushing the handlebar... anyway ok...i understand now what is the idea of DDs handlebar.
Love the way some of you explain my system thanks. ;D
Back to the brakes................so I tested the oil and kinda knew it might effect the seals and got 2 resaults so far................
Front mastercylinder had no swelling of the seals and works fine so far
Rear mastercylinder stuck and is now poo lol
I was just trying to get around the shipping problem and as I have been a bike/car tech for over 38 years I knew the possible resaults but wanted to actually test it.
So..............I decided to see if I could find a DOT 5.1 brake fluid with a NON HAZADOUS on paper for shipping.............. et voila........... Valvoline has one..........AND some companies will allow shipping with it!!!
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/NcAAAOSwuYVWp5GD/s-l1600.jpg)
So........... I ordered a new gixxer mastercylinder for the rear and a new set of controls for front brake and clutch. After testing and design work I decided that I will keep the clutch with cable(for now) but found a matching set with a fluid resevoir that is built into the lever unit to stop breakage while shipping.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/71f8/58mor8q0utz3zks6g.jpg)
I also designed a new bracket to mount the rear resevoir to protect it in shipping too.
I will give an update when I get all the new parts in and test the poo out of them.
I designed a unit for the clutch with hydraulics but it will be expensive to make to start and needs testing so its still in the pipeline lol
DD
Hello DD,
i keep looking at what is HS1, HS2 and so on and it look very interesting.
I'm playing today with a joystick and a drum pedal that i "diy" with a EDtracker Pro at the end for the rear brake since its that a difference on lap time. And to be close to reality as much as possible. I'd really like to ride GP bikes without having to stress about my brake system and forgetting the commands like i do on my everyday rides.
So i'm in the idea to either start form a Arduino Leonardo 32u4 or DIY a Xbox360 controller (5 axis on the 7 required). So that's the presentation. (i did a bunch of DIY stuff around PC's so i know how to but it's time to spend as well as money but that's another problem)
And at the same time, instead of doing it which i could do, eventually i was looking at your work and since i cant' find the answer somewhere else, i'm directly coming to the Boss 8) : Are you selling them, is there a price somewhere ? or they are prototype and even if SimUK did a nice video, maybe it's not to be selling yet or....
Can you tell me something about it so i can think wisely about my future on GP Bikes simulator ?
Thanks.
speedfr
Hi speedfr
I dont recommend either the Arduino Leonardo 32u4 or DIY a Xbox360 controller as they are not as good to use as Leo Bodnar boards which are plug n play on PC and easy to use.
Use the BU0636A
http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=94&products_id=204 (http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=94&products_id=204)
And the Matrix board for best operation and simplicity to use
http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=94&products_id=274 (http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=94&products_id=274)
I use the P260 potentiometers as well
http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=103_81&products_id=193 (http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=103_81&products_id=193)
I recommend this combination and use Dupont connectors to make life simple
If you want more info on the Hs3 then please email me at doubledragoncc@yahoo.com
DD
DD, thank you for your fast reply.
About electronics and using this or something else, it's on a way but nothing is settle so far. But i really appreciate your comments and i will look further. I'm thinking of starting with what makes the EDTracker works and had axis on it.
But mostly about HS2, is this handlebar to sell ? Can i push the door of your Teamspeak ? i own a ts server too if you want ..
Hi speedfr
I will give all info to buy Hs3 via email. Teamspeak is open
DD
Oki doki.
Fixing stuff with the kids and coming to your TS door ! Thanks.
speedfr
I must says that i'm very impressed by what DD sent me but i'll keep it secret ;D
The only thing i'm allowing myself to reveal is that he has a beautiful kitchen !!! :o
So yes, this is THE idea for a realistic/reliable handlebar, and God, if i could, i would ...
Thank you and big respect to Mister DD :-*
I'm gonna have to work like ants, winter is the off-season no?
Hello DD,
just back to you for a little question...
I know you don't use FF in your device.
And i'm kind like you about it except maybe for one feedback : When you ride, and brakes and try to start a curve, if you brake a lot the bike as a tendancy to go straight and to avoid the leaning so you have to force more (including forcing on your inside foot support - sorry i don't have the accurate word in mind) and try to lean more to force the bike into the curve.
If there's any way to get this from the software (GP Bikes) that will be somehing interesting to use but do you know how to catch data from the games ? As a motec that you feed with the data from the game (GTR2-rFactor-Assetto...)
Is this something that i need to ask PIboso about or do you know if it's possible ? (actually i'm wondering how the links between the game and the controller works for the FF system.)
Thank you and "bonne soirée" to you !!
speedfr
Hi speedfr
I am the wrong person to ask about FFB in GPB as not used it yet. I am concetrating on the input first and then I will get into FFB.
DD
speedfr > i think you talk about rider lean, anyway even in real life, if the bike don't want to lean then it mean nor you're too fast in a corner, neither you brake to hard, and i don't think forcing the handle bar or leaning your body to extreme would make any noticeable effect. you have to slow down or release the brake, the only thing you get from ffb within tha situation is that the steering is more diffucult to turn so it just warn you that you have to slow down or release the brake.
Hi guys, so....................
300psi Transducer test left me with this........
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/88ce/h7m5653ks01kbtv6g.jpg)
BUGGER IT!!! Blew the fooker in half lol, not sure if it was a defective one and got another to test but just went striaght to a 500psi for Front brake and works a charm.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/d29b/3gkfd172vi4xdk36g.jpg)
Resting it in GPB it felt so good to have a brake working on pressure and not movement alone. Bodnar board allows direct connection and this brand of transducer although not expensive they do not fluctuate like many I have tested.
DD
How hard are you pulling on the lever? In braking systems the pressure is created by the ratio between the lever pivot, the master cylinder area, and the brake caliper piston area. A well designed braking system should be able to produce prodigious amounts [hundreds of pounds] of brake pad pressure with only five pounds of lever force and 150 or so psi of hydraulic pressure.
I was using all the pressure I have in my right hand. I have to test to make sure this kind of thing WONT happen lol. I really was giving it beans but I am not the strongest person so I have to think of someone with the mind of a Neanderthal lol. Gonna use 1000psi for rear brakes I think. Will test when one gets here.
DD
Heu yes, i would say 1000psi minimum after what i saw in this place.
They're using a 100 bar transductor that means 1450 psi.
https://www.shop-racing.com/kit-pression-frein-tony-zanardi-crg-aim,fr,4,SR_SHO_110.cfm
(it's a Variohm brand, probably EPT9100 series, hard to find "individualy" as far as i searched for )
(Good >:( that it did that at testing, but the thing is if it start to leak you gonna have liquid everywhre with so much pressure DD ? And better not explode entering Correntaio 'round 350km/h !!! teasing you ;D ;D )
As always, very interesting job !!
I have to test thoughrally before making it a standard part so could end up swimming in 2.1 brake fluid lol. I think the brand I use is going to be fine but rather know for sure than be worrying lol.
DD
Quote from: doubledragoncc on December 17, 2017, 01:56:51 PM
I have to test thoughrally before making it a standard part so could end up swimming in 2.1 brake fluid lol. I think the brand I use is going to be fine but rather know for sure than be worrying lol.
DD
It might be easier to create a hard physical stop that would limit the amount of lever travel so one can not create excessive amounts of pressure. I write this because no matter what pressure one designs a system for, someone is going to come along and intentionally or inadvertently exceed it. The end user would adjust the calibration and gain in GP-Bikes to get the desired braking affect and have the same 'feel' as IRL.
The levers have 6 adjustments for distance to bar grip but it really seems fine with the 500psi, not broken in the last 2 hours lol
In reality I and many riders always cover the brake lever with 2 fingers and mainly use just those until I need to brake bloody hard lol. 2 fingers also allows throttle control while baking too.
DD
Break master cylinder should be putting out more than around 200PSI max (depends on the piston size) so that 300 one must have been duff
Or it didn't spring back and more fluid went into the cylinder, causing a hydrolock situation and with no bypass either the seals, the sensor or the lever will give way.
Quote from: doubledragoncc on December 17, 2017, 02:28:43 PM
The levers have 6 adjustments for distance to bar grip but it really seems fine with the 500psi, not broken in the last 2 hours lol
This is not the adjustment that matters, it should only alter the point at which the brakes start biting.
Only a few lever+mc blocks have an adjustable ratio (leverage in GPB terms): this can change the max pressure seen in the circuit (the mc diameter too, of course).
Quote from: HornetMaX on December 17, 2017, 08:02:32 PM
Quote from: doubledragoncc on December 17, 2017, 02:28:43 PM
The levers have 6 adjustments for distance to bar grip but it really seems fine with the 500psi, not broken in the last 2 hours lol
This is not the adjustment that matters, it should only alter the point at which the brakes start biting.
This.
You arn't changing the Fulcum point by adjusting the lever, just where you grab it from
Whatever type or brand, i really think it should be way over the max limit, at least 100 bar because the transductor is connected right at the outside of the master-cylinder and there's no mobile parts inside, no tube length to absorb some of the pressure.
Pressure is always constant, issue is not having a slave so you hydraulic 'gain' is massive. Ideally you need the smallest diameter master or ideally a dummy slave cylinder.
Quote from: h106frp on December 17, 2017, 09:14:34 PM
Pressure is always constant, issue is not having a slave so you hydraulic 'gain' is massive. Ideally you need the smallest diameter master or ideally a dummy slave cylinder.
Uh ?
Ideally you need a load to resist against, no just a resiviour (like this is)
By presure is a constant, I assume you mean under load. EG say it is the system is at 100 PSI then you pulling on the lever should not increase the presure, it should apply a movment load until there is no more give. Unfortunetly in this siuation that wouldn't be a practical solutuion as it would require a lot of space.
We use the same pricipal in Lifts, systems sit at say 10 bar and starting the pump doesnt actually put any more pressue on the cylinder it just moves oil into the cylinder and such moves the lift car on the rod.
When we brake on a motorcycle, actually every wehicule with liquid brake on disc, we first push the fluid with the lever to move the "fork cylinder" (sorry, i don't have the exact technic word) so it press the pad to the disc. But the disc constantly turn (till you stop ;D) and by his movement keeps pushing the pad back so you maintain that force through the pressure you have on the lever. On this system, the pressure is made, the little tiny circuit is filled up, you test with the lever, you have pressure. But if during a lap, you keep pressing, pressing, nothing move, the pressure keeps being directly applied only to the round metallic cap that press on the silicium plate (that catch the pressure by deformation if i understood what i have been reading about it).
So in the Allan system, i think but i might be totally wrong - i just give an idea that i have in my mind - that the pressure will keep going up to a certain level and something is going to leak or break after a lot or maybe not a lot of actionning. As far as i know water is not compressible, what about this DOT fluid ?
Quote from: matty0l215 on December 17, 2017, 09:37:54 PM
Ideally you need a load to resist against, no just a resiviour (like this is)
By presure is a constant, I assume you mean under load. EG say it is the system is at 100 PSI then you pulling on the lever should not increase the presure, it should apply a movment load until there is no more give. Unfortunetly in this siuation that wouldn't be a practical solutuion as it would require a lot of space.
We use the same pricipal in Lifts, systems sit at say 10 bar and starting the pump doesnt actually put any more pressue on the cylinder it just moves oil into the cylinder and such moves the lift car on the rod.
That's not how brake works (can't say for lifts but I trust you).
Lever not pulled, pressure in the main part of the circuit is small (in the reservoir it's just the atm pressure).
Only when you pull it the pressure builds up. The initial part where you actually displace the piston/pad is not very interesting (but you ned some extra pressure for this too, to overcome friction). Once the pad touches the disc, this is where you build up pressure.
Yes sorry, like you say. Pulling on the lever would increase the pressure because there is a resistive load.
I should have put it differently. You could use a static load (contstant presure, say to a piston) but theis would then require another mesuring device and would actually be useless in this situation because it wouldn't give the feel of a motorcycle break
Rambeling again, I'll be quite now :P
Prressure is constant - just refering to the hose comment. The issue with hoses is not changing pressure but the bulging creating more volume space for the working fluid.
The ratio comment is that correctly primed this system would have virtually no lever movement, we are not (meaningfully) trading displacement for force and would describe it as very 'wooden' in a real scenario.
I did start something using a cheap landrover clutch slave cylinder - a push cylinder acting on a stiff spring that finally became coil bound after a short displacement to simulate initial take up and loading - seemed a reasonable simulation but gave up onn the idea of a fluid system.
Well done to DD, once refined certainly the way to go.
Quote from: h106frp on December 17, 2017, 10:19:31 PM
Prressure is constant - just refering to the hose comment. The issue with hoses is not changing pressure but the bulging creating more volume space for the working fluid.
The ratio comment is that correctly primed this system would have virtually no lever movement, we are not (meaningfully) trading displacement for force and would describe it as very 'wooden' in a real scenario.
I did start something using a cheap landrover clutch slave cylinder - a push cylinder acting on a stiff spring that finally became coil bound after a short displacement to simulate initial take up and loading - seemed a reasonable simulation but gave up onn the idea of a fluid system.
But why doing that once you have a real lever and master cylinder ?
Assuming a real caliper + pads+ disc is perfectly "rigid" (i.e. no bulging/leaks), then just put a short hose with a tap on it and it should have the same feeling as a real brake no ?
OK, minus the fading, but everything else should be the same (hose bulging + master cylinder losses). I don't think the actual displacement of brake pads pistons really matters to the feeling.
Quote from: HornetMaX on December 18, 2017, 08:09:32 AM
Quote from: h106frp on December 17, 2017, 10:19:31 PM
Prressure is constant - just refering to the hose comment. The issue with hoses is not changing pressure but the bulging creating more volume space for the working fluid.
The ratio comment is that correctly primed this system would have virtually no lever movement, we are not (meaningfully) trading displacement for force and would describe it as very 'wooden' in a real scenario.
I did start something using a cheap landrover clutch slave cylinder - a push cylinder acting on a stiff spring that finally became coil bound after a short displacement to simulate initial take up and loading - seemed a reasonable simulation but gave up onn the idea of a fluid system.
But why doing that once you have a real lever and master cylinder ?
Assuming a real caliper + pads+ disc is perfectly "rigid" (i.e. no bulging/leaks), then just put a short hose with a tap on it and it should have the same feeling as a real brake no ?
OK, minus the fading, but everything else should be the same (hose bulging + master cylinder losses). I don't think the actual displacement of brake pads pistons really matters to the feeling.
In a properly primed system the initial lever movement takes up the gap between the pad and the disc, which, while small, does require a modest amount of fluid especially on systems whose brake caliper pistons are large or numerous. The amount of lever movement required is inversely proportional to master cylinder piston diameter and there will be minimal change is line pressure as there is very little resistance [a bit of static pressure which would be very difficult to measure]. I am not writing anything new here, just putting other enthusiast's words in a different order.
If the system is dead headed and is completely air free, as DD's seems to be, then one would see an increase in system pressure immediately upon pulling on the lever. In properly primed systems the pressure curve is not at all linear as the gap provides no resistance, the balancing of the fluid load [in the case of multiple caliper pistons of differing diameters] provides an modest load, the compression of the brake pad material provides a large load, and compression of the brake disk provides a tremendous load. Once all gaps have been taken up and all components have completed their limited amount of compression then the system is at its maximum pressure capacity and any increase in braking force is due to friction between the pads and the disk and not the pressure being exerted on the lever. Any additional lever movement beyond the maximum system pressure point just expands the diameter of the brake lines, regardless of brake line material.
The biggest problem that you guys forget is cost and shipping.
I was lucky to find a DOT 5.1 that is totally NON HAZARDOUS to ship BUT you have to ship with NO air in the system or it can be dangerous.
If it was a complete brake system it costs so much more AND I would then need to think on mounting all the parts and keeping them safe in shipping.
Compromizws must be made. If everyone was rich it would not matter but you have to keep it real to sell it!!!
DD
Quote from: uberslug on December 18, 2017, 10:54:58 AM
Once all gaps have been taken up and all components have completed their limited amount of compression then the system is at its maximum pressure capacity and any increase in braking force is due to friction between the pads and the disk and not the pressure being exerted on the lever. Any additional lever movement beyond the maximum system pressure point just expands the diameter of the brake lines, regardless of brake line material.
Hmm, sorry but no. The friction you mention (discs - pads) is proportional to the pressure between the two parts, so any increase on lever pressure will increase breaking force.
The pressure is definitely not constant: that's why when you want to brake more you squeeze the lever more (no matter if it actually moves or not).
Simple proof: put a chair on the floor and push it. Now sit your wifey on the chair and push it. More pressure, more friction, more force.
Don't push the wifey too far though :)
@ddcc: I'm actually arguing in favor of simpler stuff, just like you did :)
Quote from: HornetMaX on December 18, 2017, 11:36:40 AM
Quote from: uberslug on December 18, 2017, 10:54:58 AM
Once all gaps have been taken up and all components have completed their limited amount of compression then the system is at its maximum pressure capacity and any increase in braking force is due to friction between the pads and the disk and not the pressure being exerted on the lever. Any additional lever movement beyond the maximum system pressure point just expands the diameter of the brake lines, regardless of brake line material.
Hmm, sorry but no. The friction you mention (discs - pads) is proportional to the pressure between the two parts, so any increase on lever pressure will increase braking force.
The pressure is definitely not constant: that's why when you want to brake more you squeeze the lever more (no matter if it actually moves or not).
Simple proof: put a chair on the floor and push it. Now sit your wifey on the chair and push it. More pressure, more friction, more force.
Don't push the wifey too far though :)
@ddcc: I'm actually arguing in favor of simpler stuff, just like you did :)
I agree the amount of friction is proportional to the pressure, however, once the system has reached maximum pressure any additional force on the lever is absorbed by the expansion of the brake lines. In the real world, there is very little braking force to be gained by increasing the pressure on the lever beyond the maximum pressure point of the system. This is the reasoning behind steel braid reinforced versus stock aramid braid brake hoses, less system flex equals more system pressure equals more braking force [to a point].
Pretty much no matter what one uses in a braking system with 'flexible' hoses, the system isn't [in a strict sense] dead headed [technically hard pipe doesn't provide true dead heading if the pressure has no defined limit].
If braking force were merely dependent upon system pressure we would have massively large brake calipers with massively large pistons and very small master cylinder diameters. In addition, levers would be REALLY long with very high pivot ratios. Modern braking systems rely on the friction created when two materials are rubbed against each other for their braking force, not the overall system pressure.
And just so we are comparing apples to apples: In my argument I am defining 'Braking Force' as the drag the braking system introduces to the rotational velocity of the wheel, not the amount of force being exerted upon the brake pad / disk combination.
Yes, simple is better.
Quote from: uberslug on December 18, 2017, 01:15:29 PM
I agree the amount of friction is proportional to the pressure, however, once the system has reached maximum pressure any additional force on the lever is absorbed by the expansion of the brake lines.
Ah OK then, it was a bit unclear when you first stated it.
Quote from: uberslug on December 18, 2017, 01:15:29 PM
If braking force were merely dependent upon system pressure we would have massively large brake calipers with massively large pistons and very small master cylinder diameters. In addition, levers would be REALLY long with very high pivot ratios.
But that's mostly the case no ? Multi-piston calipers(more practical than one larger piston), braided hoses, small master cylinders, high leverages ... all stuff we have on sports bikes.
Not the long levers of course, for obvious resons :)
Quote from: uberslug on December 18, 2017, 01:15:29 PM
Modern braking systems rely on the friction created when two materials are rubbed against each other for their braking force, not the overall system pressure.
Oh man, you lost me again :) That (rubbing) friction depends on the pressure.
If it wasn't dependent on the pressure, we wouldn't need braided hoses (just lower the leverage to get a lower max pressure with just as much braking force).
Quote from: uberslug on December 18, 2017, 01:15:29 PM
And just so we are comparing apples to apples: In my argument I am defining 'Braking Force' as the drag the braking system introduces to the rotational velocity of the wheel, not the amount of force being exerted upon the brake pad / disk combination.
And what I'm trying to tell you is that the two are proportional :)
The more you press the pad against the disc, the more drag you get.
DING DING end of round one................
I love the way you guys really get into it when I dont even have calipers or discs lol.
DING DONG round two lol
DD
I can't understand or argue correctly with you guys but as an Ingeneer, i did a lot of theory and once in situation, the theory stays a theory, the reality is sometimes way differents.
And my feeling is that the DD system will have problems anyway, as Uberslug seems to says it too.
(my lack of words is horrible, my technical English is so poor i'm censored by my language limit, very frustrating but too bad for me).
found out that what you call caliper is actually what i was calling "fork-cylinder"... very frustrating.
@DD : Can't you ship your systeme without liquid and the client could filled it up by himself no ? (if it's for GOOD reasons that doesn't depend on you but on International Flight Rules, any client will understand)
Edit : Like that ? ;D ;D ;D
(https://zupimages.net/up/17/51/9cro.jpg) (http://zupimages.net/viewer.php?id=17/51/9cro.jpg)
lol speedfr
Before you all start the next round you should really wait until I finish my testing. I have learnt that sometimes what should not work in theory, can actually work in practice.
It would not be good to ship without filling the system as the customer might not be the kind that knows how to bleed this system to make sure it works, plus it wont matter if I ship the fluid in a container it is still needing to be shipped lol.
DD
Quote from: doubledragoncc on December 18, 2017, 02:19:15 PM
Before you all start the next round you should really wait until I finish my testing. I have learnt that sometimes what should not work in theory, can actually work in practice.
Not sure it was clear but my point is/was that what you're building should feel very much like a real brake.
If it has some "dead zone" at the beginning of the lever travel, the rest should be fine.
@HornetMax :
that's the point, if he uses transductor its to get pressure on the hand as a real brake, so the feeling would be the same.
And i'm glad to see that we agree with DD, theory and practic are oftenly different, it needs to be tested and retested.
"The Bumblebee can't fly, Aeoronautics theory has proven it. But he doesn't know about aeronautics, that's why he is actually flying..." ;D
Quote from: HornetMaX on December 18, 2017, 01:48:53 PM
Quote from: uberslug on December 18, 2017, 01:15:29 PM
I agree the amount of friction is proportional to the pressure, however, once the system has reached maximum pressure any additional force on the lever is absorbed by the expansion of the brake lines.
Ah OK then, it was a bit unclear when you first stated it.
Quote from: uberslug on December 18, 2017, 01:15:29 PM
If braking force were merely dependent upon system pressure we would have massively large brake calipers with massively large pistons and very small master cylinder diameters. In addition, levers would be REALLY long with very high pivot ratios.
But that's mostly the case no ? Multi-piston calipers(more practical than one larger piston), braided hoses, small master cylinders, high leverages ... all stuff we have on sports bikes.
Not the long levers of course, for obvious resons :)
Quote from: uberslug on December 18, 2017, 01:15:29 PM
Modern braking systems rely on the friction created when two materials are rubbed against each other for their braking force, not the overall system pressure.
Oh man, you lost me again :) That (rubbing) friction depends on the pressure.
If it wasn't dependent on the pressure, we wouldn't need braided hoses (just lower the leverage to get a lower max pressure with just as much braking force).
Quote from: uberslug on December 18, 2017, 01:15:29 PM
And just so we are comparing apples to apples: In my argument(s) I am defining 'Braking Force' as the drag the braking system introduces to the rotational velocity of the wheel, not the amount of force being exerted upon the brake pad / disk combination.
And what I'm trying to tell you is that the two are proportional :)
The more you press the pad against the disc, the more drag you get.
We are saying the same thing, however, I am taking into consideration the physical limit to the amount of pressure that can be exerted on the brake pads. Even though this limit exists, braking technology advances due to the invention of materials with higher coefficients of friction.
Quote from: speedfr on December 18, 2017, 03:04:52 PM
@HornetMax :
that's the point, if he uses transductor its to get pressure on the hand as a real brake, so the feeling would be the same.
Yeah but the point of the discussion with uberslug and h106frp was that they seems to think (if I understood them correctly) that a simple setup like dd's (real lever+master cyl + hose + pressure sensor and a cap) will not results in something that feels like the real thing (for reasons like initial displacement or others). Just trying to understand, dd is anyway already testing :)
Quote from: uberslug on December 18, 2017, 03:27:24 PM
We are saying the same thing, however, I am taking into consideration the physical limit to the amount of pressure that can be exerted on the brake pads.
In dd's case: whatever breaks/bulges/leaks first, the master cylinder, the hose or the pressure sensor :)
Quote from: speedfr on December 18, 2017, 03:04:52 PM
@HornetMax :
that's the point, if he uses transductor its to get pressure on the hand as a real brake, so the feeling would be the same.
And i'm glad to see that we agree with DD, theory and practic are oftenly different, it needs to be tested and retested.
"The Bumblebee can't fly, Aeoronautics theory has proven it. But he doesn't know about aeronautics, that's why he is actually flying..." ;D
Technically, the feeling would only be the same if there was a range of little resistance [gap between the pads and the disk] followed by a range of increasing resistance [as components compress and expand]. I have not studied the design but from what I see in the picture, and if the system is fully bled of air, it is dead headed which means it starts creating measurable pressure immediately upon lever movement. It will, more than likely, produce better results than a potentiometer but it will not truly duplicate the 'feel' of a real brake lever.
I would guess one could leave a bit of air in the system [to act as a progressive rate spring] which would more closely replicate the initial lever movement. This band aid would cause its own list of problems and would not truly replicate the feel of an actual braking system but it would be close.
I built my glorified game pad using a caliper, a braided steel brake line, a load cell, and a faux brake pad to actuate the load cell. Once properly bled it operated and felt exactly like a real life brake system [since it is]. It also provided the tactile feed back I was looking for. It was, however, expensive [even with used parts], consumed a lot of space, and was / is potentially messy / hazardous.
DD's design is simple and compact which makes it far more marketable than a 'real life system'. My contributions to this thread should in no way be construed as being critical of his system.
Quote from: HornetMaX on December 18, 2017, 03:35:25 PM
Quote from: speedfr on December 18, 2017, 03:04:52 PM
@HornetMax :
that's the point, if he uses transductor its to get pressure on the hand as a real brake, so the feeling would be the same.
Yeah but the point of the discussion with uberslug and h106frp was that they seems to think (if I understood them correctly) that a simple setup like dd's (real lever+master cyl + hose + pressure sensor and a cap) will not results in something that feels like the real thing (for reasons like initial displacement or others). Just trying to understand, dd is anyway already testing :)
Quote from: uberslug on December 18, 2017, 03:27:24 PM
We are saying the same thing, however, I am taking into consideration the physical limit to the amount of pressure that can be exerted on the brake pads.
In dd's case: whatever breaks/bulges/leaks first, the master cylinder, the hose or the pressure sensor :)
I may be wrong, but, it looks like the transducer is screwed directly into either the end of the master cylinder or a coupling of some sort. I do not see any length of hose between the transducer and the master cylinder. This is why I am writing that the system is truly dead headed as there are no components that provide any expansion.
Perfect and thanks to both of you, i can understand a lot better now what you guys was saying.
And yes, the feeling won't be the same, but the esssential is to have the end of braking that feel the same, i mean you know when you press hard and harder that you brake harder. Anyway, the feeling comes from practice in the game.
And @Ubersulg, if i well understand what you did, you are actually braking on a regular system except the disk is changed by a loadcell and then you push the pads on the loadcell when you brake, am i right ?
(to be honest, that what i was thinking of doing at first, keeping a real brake from my Husky or coming from a wreck place, and brake as natural using a potentiometer for the measure of distance).
I wrote a mail to BRD to know what they use for this braking measure, they claim to use regular braking stuff in their simulator, we will see their answer.
in case somebody wants to get to them, its in UK (they makes simulator using Kunos Simulazioni software - Assetto Corsa)-->
BallRacing Developments Limited
Unit 12 Lawson Hunt Industrial Park
Broadbridge Heath, Nr Horsham
West Sussex
RH12 3JR
UK
Tel: +44 (0) 870 777 5757
Fax: +44 (0) 870 777 5858
Email: info@brdsim.com
(preparing Round 3 picture.... ;D )
Edit :
Quote from: uberslug on December 18, 2017, 04:08:40 PM
Quote from: HornetMaX on December 18, 2017, 03:35:25 PM
Quote from: speedfr on December 18, 2017, 03:04:52 PM
@HornetMax :
that's the point, if he uses transductor its to get pressure on the hand as a real brake, so the feeling would be the same.
Yeah but the point of the discussion with uberslug and h106frp was that they seems to think (if I understood them correctly) that a simple setup like dd's (real lever+master cyl + hose + pressure sensor and a cap) will not results in something that feels like the real thing (for reasons like initial displacement or others). Just trying to understand, dd is anyway already testing :)
Quote from: uberslug on December 18, 2017, 03:27:24 PM
We are saying the same thing, however, I am taking into consideration the physical limit to the amount of pressure that can be exerted on the brake pads.
In dd's case: whatever breaks/bulges/leaks first, the master cylinder, the hose or the pressure sensor :)
I may be wrong, but, it looks like the transducer is screwed directly into either the end of the master cylinder or a coupling of some sort. I do not see any length of hose between the transducer and the master cylinder. This is why I am writing that the system is truly dead headed as there are no components that provide any expansion.
That's exactly what i meant, there's no tube that could "take" some of the pressure gain (even if we don't want it, that's why we use Avionics tube (still don't have the good terms, sorry) so it wouldn't grow during braking and absord parts of the pressure. But here the pressure goes directly to the head of the transductor.
Example of "Durit Aviation" to have a better reliable braking : https://www.bst-moto.com/durite-aviation-rub_fr_237.html
Quote from: speedfr on December 18, 2017, 04:16:05 PM
And @Ubersulg, if i well understand what you did, you are actually braking on a regular system except the disk is changed by a loadcell and then you push the pads on the loadcell when you brake, am i right ?
(preparing Round 3 picture.... ;D )
Yes.
I think there's more to gain with a proper software setup (pressure to GPB input curve) than with anything else.
Even if dd's system is dead headed and is stuck after the initial "no output" movement.
Side note: most car freaks seem to be pretty satisfied with the feeling of load cells without and fluid circuitry.
Personally I'd tend to think that for us, something as simple as a 1st soft spring for initial lever movement + a 2nd very stiff spring for actual action + a proper curve on this should be more than enough.
But as it would need to be custom built, maybe it's easier to go along with what dd is doing, at least he can use real parts.
Yes, what DD uses is the simpliest.
No movement, just the reading of the pressure, no hose (tube?) no pads, no heavy stuff, simple and direct. Just need to be linked to LEoBodnar controller and ready to go.
Really simple and efficent, and a real brake feeling. That will be great.
On car sim, the guys are using a lot of loadcell now, but it's a single brake, on a foot. Which is easy to make and link but on the handlebar, on the front brake, it will need cable and complex system to go press or push the load cell. Ubersulg system is great but heavy and complex, and probably not good enough to be sold as a finished product.
I even have seen a guy stealing the gauge of his wife balance to make a load cell braking system. It works great. But not appliable for hand braking.
That changes from the usual pitbabes !!!
(https://zupimages.net/up/17/51/jhgt.jpg) (http://zupimages.net/viewer.php?id=17/51/jhgt.jpg)
The system is fully bled but this particular master cylinder unit allows a small amount of lever movement before it hit pressure. I find it helpful and as said before it will boil down to getting used to the feel and how it works in GPB before I can really comment on it all. I have to build a complete system as I must change a lot to get the parts to all fit each other from using cable units before.
I cant see a real reason anything should break or leak as long as the parts are quality enough and I just treat it with respect and find its limitations.
Either way it will ave me at least 10 hours of 3D printing so really hope it all pans out.
Thanks for all your input.
DD
Just done first full system test with front and rear hydrulic brakes.....................frickin love it, so much more feel for front brake. Rear brake needs to be bleed more but is hard due to design as it has no blled nipple..................no nipples no fun lol.
Will figure it out but will make a video tomorrow to show it in GPBikes and Ride2 and maybe The Crew.
DD
DD, maybe you remember that during your last live stream I have said that controling a virtual bike with countersteer axis would be more realistic. Now I have to admit that I was wrong. Despite irl we control the bike lean with countersteer, in virtual world having a feel of a lean is more important than minimal conter movement of handlebar. I really love your idea and the way the handlebar is made - fantastic work.
Actually KG, irl you apply pressure with your right arm on the bars to countersteer, ie as if turning the bars to go left, on the Hs3 system if you are leaning right you are therefore pushing with your right arm which in real life give pressure on the bars, and this means it IS counter steering and feel natural.
Back to the hydraulic brakes.......................soooooooooo in last nights stream all was good until I tried The Crew and the front brake was so weak I was not sure why and gave a bit too much effort and blew the 500psi transducer!!! A normal person applys about 300psi of pressure when squeezing their hand in a fist so 500 should have been okay, BUT, naturally there is the mastercylinder to concider and I have now taken the 1000psi off the rear brake to test for the front brake.
I was really giving the lever force, far more than you ever would in real life but this is why I test everything for the possability of missuse and apes using the system.
So far I am really happy with the feel of the brake and am now 99% sure it will be stock on future systems.
The dogleg levers feel great too and am keeping the clutch with cable and potentiometer for now.
I hope to do a better live stream later today. Yesterday was totally lacking in setup before I streamed as it is a war zone in my room lol
Rear brake is proving harder to bleed this time and wonder if it is the 90 degree adapter causing problems but will get it sorted today with luck. Only problem is I only have a 300psi transducer in stock and have to wait on the next 1000psi one. Its a slow process to get right but I will prevail lol.
DD
Your doing a great job there DD... Keep up the great work mate! ;D 8)
Remember that with a lever the potential PSI pressure will be so much greater than the 300psi when just squeezing your hand, but the 1000 psi replacement transducer should be enough I would've thought? :-\ ;)
Hi !
Searching for what value to use, on karting pro or for racing data reporting, they use 100 bar transudcer so that makes 1450 psi. I guess they take a little extra in case but that seems to be the "average" when i went to look for that kind of stuff. Adding the fact that when real brakes works, they get hot and so the pressure as artificial raise but still, 100 bar seems sturdy enough.
speedfr
Not forgotten you speedfr just been very busy.
What does that transducer cost though?
DD
Hi DD,
so here are different links.
(https://www.shop-racing.com/boutique/images_produits/sm_pfrein_zanardi-z.jpg)
https://www.shop-racing.com/kit-pression-frein-tony-zanardi-crg-aim,fr,4,SR_SHO_110.cfm (https://www.shop-racing.com/kit-pression-frein-tony-zanardi-crg-aim,fr,4,SR_SHO_110.cfm)
The kit they selling it for 199€ at this place but i keep looking for that until i find the brand, the type, the pressure... and for this one kit the transductor is a Variohm one, probably EPT9100 series (see the pdf link) and this Variohm society is in England.... ;)
https://www.variohm.com/index.php (https://www.variohm.com/index.php)
https://www.variohm.com/images/datasheets/EPT9100_Pressure_Sensor_1704_J.pdf (https://www.variohm.com/images/datasheets/EPT9100_Pressure_Sensor_1704_J.pdf)
I found the equivalent made by a Swiss company sold in France by Serv'instrumentation ( http://www.servinstrumentation.fr/ ). I called and for a EPT9100 at 100 bar with female connector instead of male (easier for me to adapt since i was thinking of using a piece of durit), the price was around 150€ so almost the same as the Variohm one (O to 5V DC and working with 5V, a lot of them doesn't work properly under 24V)
Another one from a motorcycling racing company that sells product for the AIM or 2D devices.
(nice dashboard tho...)
http://tech-solutions.fr/boutique/sample-product/capteur-de-pression-frein-aim/
About parts and work for me, we need to Skype or Ts whenever you want Preacher !! ;D
speedfr
Edit : update wth Variohm "Racing Department" where they actually produce for the racing environment. But as well, i guess they double the prices...
Here --> https://www.variohm.com/pressrelease/detail.php?aid=46&did=Variohm%E2%80%99s-EPT3100-pressure-transducers-are-used-in-Ginetta-G50-series-race-cars (https://www.variohm.com/pressrelease/detail.php?aid=46&did=Variohm%E2%80%99s-EPT3100-pressure-transducers-are-used-in-Ginetta-G50-series-race-cars)
So it actually be a EPT3100 series (up to 4000 bar :o )
https://www.variohm.com/images/datasheets/EPT3100_Pressure_Sensor_1608_T.pdf (https://www.variohm.com/images/datasheets/EPT3100_Pressure_Sensor_1608_T.pdf)
https://www.variohm.com/applications/list.php?aid=6&did=Motorsports (https://www.variohm.com/applications/list.php?aid=6&did=Motorsports)
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! Finally
Soooooooooo got there at last. Front and rear brake working 100% and feeling fooking great.
For some reason the 90 degree elbo was just not letting me bleed the rear brake as I needed it. Part reason is no bleed nipple(yet) due to cost, BUT I dont think I need one now. Romoved the elbo and transducer, topped the reducer block up and replaced the transducer and hey presto, full pressure!!!
Now I have full front and rear hydraulic brakes at great price and so far not blown any seals or transducers. Front has 1000PSI (think I will use 1600PSI for sales) and funny enough 300PSI on rear (also getting 1600PSI for sales). Rear brake has a physical stop either way now.
I am finishing the system for Andy in USA and will be doing video for his and my system this weekend.
Also gotta get dpeedfr's MTE's built. Have a backplate for you speed btw.
Will post pics later as still gotta take some lol
DD
Quote from: doubledragoncc on January 11, 2018, 09:00:22 PM
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! Finally
Soooooooooo got there at last. Front and rear brake working 100% and feeling fooking great.
For some reason the 90 degree elbo was just not letting me bleed the rear brake as I needed it. Part reason is no bleed nipple(yet) due to cost, BUT I dont think I need one now. Romoved the elbo and transducer, topped the reducer block up and replaced the transducer and hey presto, full pressure!!!
Now I have full front and rear hydraulic brakes at great price and so far not blown any seals or transducers. Front has 1000PSI (think I will use 1600PSI for sales) and funny enough 300PSI on rear (also getting 1600PSI for sales). Rear brake has a physical stop either way now.
I am finishing the system for Andy in USA and will be doing video for his and my system this weekend.
Also gotta get dpeedfr's MTE's built. Have a backplate for you speed btw.
Will post pics later as still gotta take some lol
DD
Good, good, good ... ;D ;D ;D ;D
Nice that you finally got it for the brakes !
And great if you found an extra backplate, thanks Mister.
speedfr
I am held up as I broke my 4mm tap and only place to get one here is doing inventory until tomoro!!!
Will ship Monday or tuesday at latest.
DD