I would like a contact penalty system added in the next update of GP Bikes.
CBRP System (Contact Between Riders Penalty)
That is, if the rider hits another rider, they receive a penalty. Depending on the speed or magnitude of the impact, the penalty will be higher. It would also be cumulative and at the sum of "x" impacts the rider is disqualified from the race.
For example:
1x - 1x/5x If one rider hits another
2x - 2x/5x If it collides again with another rider
And so on until you reach a limit of collisions (5x) whereby the rider would be disqualified from the race.
Edit: As there is no way for the game to know who hits first the sanction would be for both riders. It may seem unfair but iRacing uses this system and the online races are the cleanest I have ever seen.
I have to say its wrong
I does not happen in real life..............that simple
Luv you Manu but bad idea and its not a nessecity
Netcode first please
DD
Could be just implemented by ourself in championship , at the end we ask for replay and we watch , so we can manually do this
Quote from: guigui404 on March 15, 2018, 06:57:51 PM
Could be just implemented by ourself in championship , at the end we ask for replay and we watch , so we can manually do this
whole point is to take the manual part away...
Quote from: doubledragoncc on March 15, 2018, 05:46:42 PM
I have to say its wrong
I does not happen in real life..............that simple
Luv you Manu but bad idea and its not a nessecity
Netcode first please
DD
Uh, riders do get penalized IRL when they persistently bounce off of other riders.
While Manu has always passed me cleanly others are far less considerate. One rider who I affectionately refer to as 'AssHat' ran into me twice on back to back laps in the same event. In both cases Mr. AssHat had plenty of room to pass on the inside had they been paying attention and riding under control.
I kind of like the idea of automatic penalties: Bump into a rider and neither of you go down, small time penalty; Bump into a rider and they go down, larger time penalty.
The other thing I would like to see is representative time penalties for crashing on one's own based on speed. Low side at 50 kph and you can pop right back up with only a six to eight second price to pay [as it is now]. Crash at 250 kph and your day is done, period.
(https://therionorteline.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/asshat.jpg)
Please don't let it be me :'(
Good idea in theory Manu, but:
The problem with that would be in structuring the logic in the programming to accomplish this? How would programme logic determine consistently and without error who actually hit who? Did the collision come from the rider approaching another rider to overtake, or was it because the rider in front moved into the other riders line causing the collision?
If you've ever played FIM Speedway Grand Prix 15 then you'll know what I mean, it's terrible at defining who was to blame for collisions and often penalises the wrong riders.
But yeah, I think the programming logic for doing this would be a lot more complicated that it first appears.... could even be impossible to do it so that collision detection errors and the resultant rider fault decision are always the correct result.
Quote from: Napalm Nick on March 15, 2018, 09:24:46 PM
(https://therionorteline.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/asshat.jpg)
Please don't let it be me :'(
No, Mr. Napalm, it is not you.
It would be nice for say an Admin on track to be able to add and retract penelties on the fly, Maybe have a icon to show if contact had been made and see if it warrents a penelty?
Just a thoght
A full and proper race control would also be nice ;D
As there is no way for the game to know who hits first the sanction would be for both riders. It may seem unfair but iRacing uses this system and the online races are the cleanest I have ever seen.
imo, the rider attempting to overtake (so coming from behind) should be penalized.
Quote from: Vini on March 16, 2018, 05:51:18 AM
imo, the rider attempting to overtake (so coming from behind) should be penalized.
But surely that could leave a situation where the overtaking rider is committed to their overtake action yet the rider in front cuts across(
due to the line they take) resulting in a collision? Who would be to blame then? You surely cannot have a situation where the rider attempting an overtake manoeuvre is always to blame for a collision because that's not always the case. :)
Good riders who know their race-craft will hold their line through corners, just as an approaching rider will assess the rider in fronts line through a corner before attempting an overtake manoeuvre... From my experience in GPB events it's that later part of that race-craft and the
timing of the overtake manoeuvre that a lot of riders, even good riders, in GPB seem to lack and thereby often causing a collision and crash because they go for a gap that is going to be closed by the rider in fronts different line through the corner.....
Maybe a lot of these collision/bike-crash issues could be resolved if the effect of collisions of the bikes were less severe? I'm talking here about the ability to push a rider aside(
with reasonably light-ish contact) rather than that same collision resulting in a full blown bike crash? You can do this in reality quite easily without causing the opponent rider to crash, but there must always be the risk of causing a crash by making such a manoeuvre and for such a manoeuvre not to be Micky-mouse programmed to the extent that you can severely hit another rider without causing an accident like we see in other so called bike sims/games.
Hi,
It's a bad idea i think.
Compare bikes to car is difficult in case of crash causes.
The reaction of a bike, when one coming on the left of another bike in a left corner, the rider at the exterior stop turning, and brakes, the reaction is really not the same as a car, i hope you see what i mean.
It's a bit complicated to implement a thing like that.
For many years i play gpb all riders are fairplay, except some who go in wrong sense to... I dont know for what.
If some hit other it is clearly not what he would, error, less experience than other.
Quote from: Hawk on March 16, 2018, 07:50:05 AM
Quote from: Vini on March 16, 2018, 05:51:18 AM
imo, the rider attempting to overtake (so coming from behind) should be penalized.
But surely that could leave a situation where the overtaking rider is committed to their overtake action yet the rider in front cuts across(due to the line they take) resulting in a collision? Who would be to blame then? You surely cannot have a situation where the rider attempting an overtake manoeuvre is always to blame for a collision because that's not always the case. :)
IIRC, the rules stipulate rider in front has the right of way and the rider behind is responsible for not causing a collision. The reason 'block passes' are so effective is because once the passer has his wheel in front, the passee has to yield the right of way, even if it means going much slower and on a different line than their original intention. The issue we have here in no way resembles real life. On both occasions Mr. AssHat ran into me when I was allowing more than adequate room to pass on the inside. His ambition far outweighed his ability.
The best exemple is minorating, but it's implemented in the server side. Minorating is calculating penalties from many factor, so if you hit someone, the algoryth calculate if you had made mistakes before, or on the former race you have done (crossing pit exit line... had previous contact ,how much you've crashed) then it give you a proportionnal penalties, in the other hand, if you manage to give close race batle without contact, it reward you point etc ......
DD: of course there is contact penalties in real life, but there is no etablished rule, it just depend on the race direction descision. The best example is the contact between Rossi and marquez in the 2015's grand prix, nobody really manage to say who's kick who out but in the end, rossi was penalized to start last on the grid and then just lose the opportunity to win a 10th title, even if he managed to finish 4th !
Yes I do know there are some IRL but not to such a degree as it would be in GPB
Also my big consern is that due to online lag if a rider has poor ping it could be due to the bikes hopping about at some point and not rider error. It just seems to be making it more and more complicated to hold events and less fun for the non hardcore riders. If it is done it should be so it can be turned on and off.
DD
Quote from: doubledragoncc on March 17, 2018, 01:32:17 AM
Yes I do know there are some IRL but not to such a degree as it would be in GPB
Also my big consern is that due to online lag if a rider has poor ping it could be due to the bikes hopping about at some point and not rider error. It just seems to be making it more and more complicated to hold events and less fun for the non hardcore riders. If it is done it should be so it can be turned on and off.
DD
+1
Totally agree that this sort of addition, if it ever happens, should be done via an optional setting that can be turned on and off depending on the event organisers preferences.
Quote from: connorhall70 on March 15, 2018, 08:20:05 PM
Quote from: guigui404 on March 15, 2018, 06:57:51 PM
Could be just implemented by ourself in championship , at the end we ask for replay and we watch , so we can manually do this
whole point is to take the manual part away...
How to take the manual part away as it needs some "free-will" to judge a contact
To design a contact system may sound bad in the first place when both riders will be sanctioned. But in my opinion it is not. You have to look at the average side of things. A rider that rides risky will have a very bad rating, whereas a rider that rides safe, might be taken out by the risky rider but overall he will have less penalties than the risky rider.
I think it would be good to keep overall rating of every player and not just per race. So there is an overview of how good/safe people ride.
The penalty in the race itself is also a decent idea but to implement that first the connection lag has to be better. I would say to not give penalty points for contact but just for crashes. This causes everyone ride a bit more carefull and close racing is still possible.
But I think the implementation of an automated system for this is difficult and shouldn't be too high on the priority list.
A more reasonable goal is to improve connection lag and just have a proffesional championship setup, where the full replay can be reviewed and people will be penalised for reckless driving.
Right now the moto2 championship is very amateuristic, but it is ofcourse one of the first full championships in recent days.
Better connection + better organisation and keeping track of everything (replays, cuts, takeouts, ...) with manual penalisation should be more than good enough to make these championships more enjoyable.
It's an interesting discussion and an interesting idea - the penalty system.
I think to make the penalty System dependent from the guilt of driver is hard for human race comissionars. For an automatic system it's so complex that I would say it's near by unpossible.
Quoteimo, the rider attempting to overtake (so coming from behind) should be penalized.
I think the "badest crimes" are to drive after a crash back to the idealline irrespective of the traffic. In this case the guilty driver isn't on the back.
I think practically an penalty system can only work for all involved drivers. For a longer term I think the advantages are greater than the disadvantages (injustices).
But what doesn't please me is: During racing you don't know at which place you are in reality. This should be only in exceptional cases.
So I would repeat my proposals:
Quote1. The big crash like in SKB2000/2001: After a crash the driver stand up, runs to the bike with lets say 2 metres/second, picks up the bike. Not before then he can drive on.
2. In case of harder crashes the bike get a problem that the bike makes slower (lets say between 0.5 and 1 sec per lap), In case of the next hard crash another 0.5-1 second.
The advantage is: The "penalty" is fast-acting, no armchair decisions.
BR Olaf
Quote from: Olaf Lehmann on March 18, 2018, 10:15:27 AM
It's an interesting discussion and an interesting idea - the penalty system.
I think to make the penalty System dependent from the guilt of driver is hard for human race comissionars. For an automatic system it's so complex that I would say it's near by unpossible.
Quoteimo, the rider attempting to overtake (so coming from behind) should be penalized.
I think the "badest crimes" are to drive after a crash back to the idealline irrespective of the traffic. In this case the guilty driver isn't on the back.
You could simply include a speed delta condition for those cases.
QuoteYou could simply include a speed delta condition for those cases.
In case anyone misses the braking point totally there will be also a big speed Ddelta.
It's simply until the moment you really have to programme this.
BR Olaf
Quote from: Olaf Lehmann on March 18, 2018, 08:28:59 PM
QuoteYou could simply include a speed delta condition for those cases.
In case anyone misses the braking point totally there will be also a big speed Ddelta.
It's simply until the moment you really have to programme this.
BR Olaf
And how often does that happen in races? If you're close to the rider in front, you will see when to brake, so you have to come from way back and then in order to still hit the one in front you basically have to stay on full throttle until the apex.
Of course you will always be able to find some special cases that would not be covered by the system but a realistic, simple compromise is definitely possible IMO.
It does happen Vini. If you follow a rider closely, in general you have to brake a bit earlier I would say. Because you've to take in to account reaction time, speed difference, distance and perhaps netcode/connection as well. I do think the rider who is overtaking has the responsibility to make a clean pass, but it's not black or white and that makes it difficult to write a piece of code for a penalty system. It's often unfair and that's what I hated about the penalty system in iRacing (was a few years ago, not sure if this system has been improved in the mean time). In my opinion the best system would be to work with a few unbiased stewards who will review the races... That's on another level and not realistic to expect for now imo. To be clear, I won't say an automated penalty system wouldn't work, but it isn't the best and the time needed to create this, should be used for better netcode imo... In the mean time let's use common sense and try to ride as clean as we can... ;)
I don't think you understood what we were talking about specifically, Johnno.
A speed delta large enough to make the proposed system penalize the rider in front (because it thinks he rejoined the track without looking) would not be reached when racing close together under normal circumstances.
Thnx for clarifying Vini! In my opinion you could have a large speed delta when someone brakes too late, but you're talking about even bigger speed delta's, haha ;)
Common sens is possible now gpbikes is in beta state and where only 10/20 people race per day, but when you reach the assetto corsa number of online driver, the ratio of stupid/clean rider would make an automated penalty system a crucial need.
Almoste every racing simulation nowaday use such a system for online race, so i don't see why Gpbikes couldn' have one, of course it will never reach the human ability to judge wich one was guillty but that's exactly the point of a racing simulation :
Having the fun of real life racing without having to pay the real coast (tyre, car, track fee, race and the race commisionary ...)