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General => Off Topic => Topic started by: uberslug on May 18, 2018, 05:33:26 PM

Title: For Those Of You...
Post by: uberslug on May 18, 2018, 05:33:26 PM
Who do not possess MotoGP skills...

https://www.engadget.com/2018/05/18/bosch-jet-thruster-motorcycle-slide-recovery/
Title: Re: For Those Of You...
Post by: matty0l215 on May 18, 2018, 05:35:50 PM
This popped up for me the other day

It certinally looks interesting for road users. I wonder how effective it would be for day to day riding and what the cost would be??
Title: Re: For Those Of You...
Post by: KG_03 on May 18, 2018, 05:46:56 PM
Good that they work on such thing. On road riding its always good to have a help like this than not have any.
Title: Re: For Those Of You...
Post by: connorhall70 on May 18, 2018, 08:44:02 PM
imagine someone next to you when that goes off hahaha, toasted leg? lol
Title: Re: For Those Of You...
Post by: speedfr on May 18, 2018, 08:52:43 PM
How do you call that  ? Side-fart ?  ;D

Maybe that's what MM has on his RCV...

Ok, ok, i'm running away  :P
Title: Re: For Those Of You...
Post by: Hawk on May 18, 2018, 09:14:14 PM
Quote from: uberslug on May 18, 2018, 05:33:26 PM
Who do not possess MotoGP skills...

https://www.engadget.com/2018/05/18/bosch-jet-thruster-motorcycle-slide-recovery/

Unbelievable! What next..... They just don't understand the thrills of riding a real bike without electronics do they! Any gimmick to make more money I guess and then market it as something you have to have. Some idiots will fall for it..... Bunch of pussies! Lol! ;D ;D
Title: Re: For Those Of You...
Post by: Warlock on May 19, 2018, 12:29:23 AM
Quote from: speedfr on May 18, 2018, 08:52:43 PM
How do you call that  ? Side-fart ?  ;D

ROFL !   ;D   yeah !! 
Title: Re: For Those Of You...
Post by: HornetMaX on May 19, 2018, 12:31:11 PM
Quote from: connorhall70 on May 18, 2018, 08:44:02 PM
imagine someone next to you when that goes off hahaha, toasted leg? lol
I don't think it's hot.

Quote from: Hawk on May 18, 2018, 09:14:14 PM
Unbelievable! What next..... They just don't understand the thrills of riding a real bike without electronics do they! Any gimmick to make more money I guess and then market it as something you have to have. Some idiots will fall for it..... Bunch of pussies! Lol! ;D ;D
You're being silly on purpose here right ?
I'm asking cause with the brits recently it's hard to tell :)
Title: Re: For Those Of You...
Post by: matty0l215 on May 19, 2018, 12:45:11 PM
I going to disagree Hawk...

Having a saftey measures is a good thing so long as they dont interfear with the base experiance.

I use an angle grider at work AND i use the guard because I don't fancy having peices of the disk in my face if i was stupid enough to shatter it.

Same goes for a bike, If it has ABS or Anti-wheelie, it can save those stupid accidents that don't need to happen :P
Title: Re: For Those Of You...
Post by: Hawk on May 19, 2018, 08:42:52 PM
Quote from: HornetMaX on May 19, 2018, 12:31:11 PM

Quote from: Hawk on May 18, 2018, 09:14:14 PM
Unbelievable! What next..... They just don't understand the thrills of riding a real bike without electronics do they! Any gimmick to make more money I guess and then market it as something you have to have. Some idiots will fall for it..... Bunch of pussies! Lol! ;D ;D
You're being silly on purpose here right ?
I'm asking cause with the brits recently it's hard to tell :)

Not silly as much as taking the piss out of those that think that any or all so called safety gimmicks are good for open road motorcycling.... Not withstanding the fact that I guess we do need these type of safety devices for some of these idiots we see on the roads these days(the wanna-be MM's. Lol! ;D ).... Sometimes it makes me think that the word "common-sense" defies comprehension in the youngsters of today.... and I thought some of the things I did was crazy, but nothing like what happens these days...... Whatever happened to learning to ride a motorcycle properly and skillfully to make your riding experience as safe as possible? :P
I guarantee that this device will risk putting a rider into dangerous situations in certain circumstances as much as it's likely to aid in rider safety.... If it's ever implemented, mark-my-words and wait for the headlines and then I can say I told you all so; just the same as the issues with the self drive cars in that drivers/riders will rely so much on these devices that they forget how to actually drive/ride safely in the first place.  :P

Quote from: matty0l215 on May 19, 2018, 12:45:11 PM
I going to disagree Hawk...

Having a safety measures is a good thing so long as they don't interfere with the base experience.

I use an angle grider at work AND i use the guard because I don't fancy having peices of the disk in my face if i was stupid enough to shatter it.

Same goes for a bike, If it has ABS or Anti-wheelie, it can save those stupid accidents that don't need to happen :P

You've hit the nail-on-the-head their mate...... If riders learned how to ride a bike properly and skillfully they wouldn't need these safety devices and these devices do interfere with the base experience, especially things like ABS, TCS and Anti-Wheelie devices..... and like I've said above, these so called safety devices can actually lull a rider into neglecting riding skills that will help prevent them getting into serious situations..... We don't need these gimmicks to aid safety, what we need is for riders to learn how to ride a bike properly in the first place and not to act like idiots while riding on the open public roads when they don't possess the skills to do so...... Like Piboso said, their ambition outweighs their ability or knowledge and it is this that causes accidents not the fact that we don't have ABS, TCS or Anti-slide devices fitted; these devices will just encourage idiotic behaviour and end up putting more lives at risk in the process. :)

It's totally different from what you said about using a safety guard on an Angle Grinder.... That is just a very practical device - in that it's there to save you from an already dangerous situation(ie: debri flying into your face) as soon as you use the grinder. :P ;)
Title: Re: For Those Of You...
Post by: matty0l215 on May 19, 2018, 09:01:20 PM
Fair point

And there is certinally no subsitute for experiance and knowing your limits.

I say its a good thing for the stupid accidents that wern't meant to happen when rideing without being a complete tool. Badly explained in my example, I meant, even in a situation when you are in complete control, shit still happens and it's nice (and sane) to have the saftey nets, You wouldn't Not have them if they don't interfear with the use of something.

No point being a bad ass for not having the aids if you go flying over the handle bars or cartwheeling down the road is it :P

Again, No substitue for experiance, but safties are there for a reason ;)
Title: Re: For Those Of You...
Post by: uberslug on May 19, 2018, 11:22:48 PM
Worked for five years at a large motorcycle dealership in the late 80s and early 90s. 80 percent of new to road riding buyers had no idea what they were getting themselves into when they wandered in off the street looking to buy a bike. The average number of miles ridden on 90 percent of the road bikes we sold was 2,000 [five years old] when they came back to sell them through our consignment program.

We used to run an ad hoc pool for the sports bikes buyers [Hurricane 600, VFR 700, CBR900RR, and Hurricane 1000]. A fellow employee bet that one customer wouldn't get a mile down the road before he crashed, the customer hit a parked car IN the parking lot. One year nine out of ten 600s came back for crash repair and we sold over 40 of them.

These types of safety devices are designed specifically for the members of society who don't have enough intelligence to keep from putting themselves in harm's way. The problem with these types of devices is that one can't fix stupid [phrase borrowed from a comedian].
Title: Re: For Those Of You...
Post by: Hawk on May 20, 2018, 12:54:35 AM
All fair points indeed..... But  having been through nearly 5 decades of watching the GP500 Grand Prix's and then onto the renamed crappy 4 stroke MotoGP series, all I can honestly tell you guys is that since the introduction of so called electronic riding safety aids, the attitude of riders and their respect for each other and their own safety has drastically dropped over the years, and I believe this is because the bikes are SO much easier to ride fast in comparison nowadays that they have to make a pretty massive error of judgement before the bike will send them down the road on their arses, unlike before they had these electronic rider aids when just a slight mistake would very likely have you sliding down the road on your arse.

Safety aids promote lazy minds and lack of respect for what one is doing, just as the introduction of calculators promoted lazy mental arithmetic skills. When your unable to properly focus and concentrate on the job at hand simply because you've never had to, then that is when accidents are likely to happen.
This is why I often say that if you put these modern MotoGP riders onto the old GP500 2 stroke bikes they'd probably come back in after a few laps and say this bike is unrideable, how on earth did those guys do what they did.
Granted that given time they could get used to riding the old 2 stroke GP bikes, but I tell you what guys, it would be a totally different riding style and there would be a lot more respect for the bikes they were riding too because they'd know you can't get away with even the smallest of mistakes without consequences on those bikes.

Electronic riding aids in motorsport have done SO much damage to the very soul of motorsports over the years that many people just cannot now see it, especially the youngsters who have never known anything different; at least in that the youngsters have a good excuse for arguing the toss in favour of electronics, but the older generation directly involved in the transition have no excuse whatsoever and should be extremely ashamed for letting it happen. :P

@Uberslug: Back in the 80's we used to clock bikes mileage back when we sold them so we'd get more money for them.... So easy to do back in those days. Lol! Given the right software it should be even easier nowadays?  :)
As far as I'm concerned, if people haven't got the intelligence to know their limits,  then what is that old saying? "There but for the grace of God go I"..... We need to stop mothering stupid people and passing it off as though it's an essential need in the name of health & safety and gimmicky sales points. :)
Title: Re: For Those Of You...
Post by: HornetMaX on May 20, 2018, 09:47:39 AM
Why do you talk about electronic aids in motorsport ?!

Clearly, this stuff is for road bikes where, no matter how good you are (or you think you are), shit can happen. Otherwise, why are we all wearing an helmet ?

Sometimes I really wonder if you Hawk do actually have / have had a bike.
Title: Re: For Those Of You...
Post by: uberslug on May 20, 2018, 10:09:38 AM
I agree that safety equipment on bikes and cars has, in general, allowed operators to lessen their skills [in the US fatalities continue to increase as bikes and cars get safer].

From a business perspective, safety equipment allows the stars to keep on drawing in the fee paying spectators when they [the competitors] get a bit exuberant and end up on the ground. I was a bit disappointed when Doohan didn't return to the San Marino GP Paddock at Imola [he retired instead and I had to settle with watching Criville win] after his horrendous crash at Jerez a number of rounds earlier. With the current level of safety equipment Doohan probably would have bounced back in a matter of hours.
Title: Re: For Those Of You...
Post by: Hawk on May 20, 2018, 12:05:40 PM
Quote from: HornetMaX on May 20, 2018, 09:47:39 AM
Why do you talk about electronic aids in motorsport ?!

Whether it's electronic aids for road or track bikes, one usually ends up being used by the other, especially track to road aids used for road bike sales and product promotional purposes.  :P

Quote from: HornetMaX on May 20, 2018, 09:47:39 AM
Clearly, this stuff is for road bikes where, no matter how good you are (or you think you are), shit can happen. Otherwise, why are we all wearing an helmet ?
Okay Max... Let me give an example of a situation that a rider, "On the road" could find themselves in:

Your riding your bike fast into an unfamiliar corner and you suddenly realise that you've overcooked your speed into that corner way too much and your bike is heading towards a wall or some other nasty life threatening obstacle, and you know as a rider that if you don't lay the bike down that chances are your going to kill yourself...... This so called safety system would try and keep your bike upright automatically and force you to hit the wall unless you have enough time and the balls to then realise this device isn't going to let you lay your bike down to then decide to jump off the bike(even so, jumping off the bike doesn't have the same effect as laying the bike and yourself down before hitting the obstacle as far as energy absorption is concerned)..... So do you still think this safety device is a good idea in this OR similar situations where a rider needs to lay the bike down to try and avoid more serious injuries?
As far as I'm concerned, I would rather have the choice to make my own decisions during any dangerous incident rather than putting my life in the hands of a cold computer that can't adapt to differing circumstances properly for any given situation the same as a human mind can.

It's always the same with "Do-Gooders" and implementing devices or rules/restrictions in the name of safety..... They are so sure they are doing the right thing that they don't think that what they do can actually end up killing someone rather than saving someone too. :P

Quote from: HornetMaX on May 20, 2018, 09:47:39 AM
Sometimes I really wonder if you Hawk do actually have / have had a bike.

ROFL!! ;D
That quote is not even worth an answer Max. Lol! :)



Quote from: uberslug on May 20, 2018, 10:09:38 AM
I agree that safety equipment on bikes and cars has, in general, allowed operators to lessen their skills [in the US fatalities continue to increase as bikes and cars get safer].

From a business perspective, safety equipment allows the stars to keep on drawing in the fee paying spectators when they [the competitors] get a bit exuberant and end up on the ground. I was a bit disappointed when Doohan didn't return to the San Marino GP Paddock at Imola [he retired instead and I had to settle with watching Criville win] after his horrendous crash at Jerez a number of rounds earlier. With the current level of safety equipment Doohan probably would have bounced back in a matter of hours.

Where building safety into riders leathers is concerned, I'm all for it because that doesn't affect the bike rider skill levels and abilities as a rider. Totally agree with you mate. ;)




Title: Re: For Those Of You...
Post by: HornetMaX on May 20, 2018, 12:26:35 PM
Quote from: Hawk on May 20, 2018, 12:05:40 PM
Quote from: HornetMaX on May 20, 2018, 09:47:39 AM
Why do you talk about electronic aids in motorsport ?!

Whether it's electronic aids for road or track bikes, one usually ends up being used by the other, especially track to road aids used for road bike sales and product promotional purposes.  :P
This is not track to road. This is road. You made the "track" part out of your immagination.

Quote from: Hawk on May 20, 2018, 12:05:40 PM
Quote from: HornetMaX on May 20, 2018, 09:47:39 AM
Clearly, this stuff is for road bikes where, no matter how good you are (or you think you are), shit can happen. Otherwise, why are we all wearing an helmet ?
Okay Max... Let me give an example of a situation that a rider, "On the road" could find themselves in:

Your riding your bike fast into an unfamiliar corner and you suddenly realise that you've overcooked your speed into that corner way too much and your bike is heading towards a wall or some other nasty life threatening obstacle, and you know as a rider that if you don't lay the bike down that chances are your going to kill yourself...... This so called safety system would try and keep your bike upright automatically and force you to hit the wall unless you have enough time and the balls to then realise this device isn't going to let you lay your bike down to then decide to jump off the bike(even so, jumping off the bike doesn't have the same effect as laying the bike and yourself down before hitting the obstacle as far as energy absorption is concerned)..... So do you still think this safety device is a good idea in this OR similar situations where a rider needs to lay the bike down to try and avoid more serious injuries?
Your example has little to do with what is shown.
The situation shown is clearly one a rider can't predict (sudden loss of grip due to surface change).
This kind of stuff cannot be handled by an amazing rider most of the time. An amateur/regular/casual/noob rider is of course down even before he realizes what happened.
It's not a matter of balls, knowledge or whatever you think was great in the past era.

Quote from: Hawk on May 20, 2018, 12:05:40 PM
As far as I'm concerned, I would rather have the choice to make my own decisions during any dangerous incident rather than putting my life in the hands of a cold computer that can't adapt to differing circumstances properly for any given situation the same as a human mind can.
As far as I'm concerned, you're free to get killed the way you want. That doesn't mean the others should follow you.

BTW, for what is worth, I had a quick chat with a friend that was there at the presentation of the system: it seems to have some important limitations and drawbacks. But that does not mean the intent is bad.

Quote from: Hawk on May 20, 2018, 12:05:40 PM
It's always the same with "Do-Gooders" and implementing devices or rules/restrictions in the name of safety..... They are so sure they are doing the right thing that they don't think that what they do can actually end up killing someone rather than saving someone too. :P
Yeah Hawk, it's all hidden agenda by some obscure organization to take control of our brains and whatnot.

Quote from: Hawk on May 20, 2018, 12:05:40 PM
Quote from: HornetMaX on May 20, 2018, 09:47:39 AM
Sometimes I really wonder if you Hawk do actually have / have had a bike.

ROFL!! ;D
That quote is not even worth an answer Max. Lol! :)
Fine, but in that case I will still have the doubt.
Title: Re: For Those Of You...
Post by: Hawk on May 20, 2018, 01:09:43 PM
@Max.... I didn't see hardly any relevance in your answers to what I posted there Max.... Just mostly misunderstood antagonistic unrelated nonsense.... Seems to be getting a habit lately mate? Lol!  ;D

Limitations in that device?? HA! As if anyone with any common sense and a spark of understanding couldn't see that from afar! Haha! Don't ever trust and worse believe in such a device Max; you'd be a fool to do so...... It'll never make the market for sure! It's an idea and invention on par with the Sinclair C5 and just as deluded by it's supporters.  :P :)
Title: Re: For Those Of You...
Post by: HornetMaX on May 20, 2018, 04:48:29 PM
Quote from: Hawk on May 20, 2018, 01:09:43 PM
@Max.... I didn't see hardly any relevance in your answers to what I posted there Max.... Just mostly misunderstood antagonistic unrelated nonsense.... Seems to be getting a habit lately mate? Lol!  ;D
Right, cause your post on the other hand was full of insight.

Quote from: Hawk on May 20, 2018, 01:09:43 PM
Limitations in that device?? HA! As if anyone with any common sense and a spark of understanding couldn't see that from afar! Haha! Don't ever trust and worse believe in such a device Max; you'd be a fool to do so...... It'll never make the market for sure! It's an idea and invention on par with the Sinclair C5 and just as deluded by it's supporters.  :P :)
In your opinion, nothing ever should make the market.
Title: Re: For Those Of You...
Post by: speedfr on May 20, 2018, 05:35:38 PM
Onthe racing side, we could remains "integrist" and want to ban all the electronics or safety improvment (avoiding highside is a good thing no ?) but two things comes right away after your "discussion".
1. obviously, what runs into races is between our hands few years after, safety, gaz mileage, tcs or other "stupid" things that makes probably less accident or wounded guys even if they are silly on the open road and...
2. if this guy is your son or daughter and ABS or this side-fart saved his life, i'm almost sure you gonna thank Bosch for his ABS or Magneti-Marelli for the TCS included in his/her bike.

I'm an old guy so i've been through 2 stroke and didn't like the coming of 4 strokes, specially on MotoGP etc, but i have to admit that it's better safety and as most of the people, the day i had my bike licence, right after i turned 18 (it's like that in France), i did what i shouldn't have done, i bought a 750 Yam with genesis frame, 5 valve, fabulous... except i almost killed myself two times on highways so i went back to the store,gave back the FZR and took a DTMX 125 instead.
But many guys didn't had my chance to stay alive.
That's why i understand this "progress" and even if it like kills the race a little bit.(ABS is off, TCS is there for highside mostly so maybe the EB is too much but hey, it's a 4 stroke so it naturally brakes a lot more than a 2 stroke).

I don't like the fact that the today racer has "just" the gaz to turn on to the max and the electronics does the rest but that progress, it has less charm, i agree but i guess this is something we can't avoid.
Aren't you guys sad each TT when we count the missing ones after ? TT is great but it's from another time, the time of the Crusades or Gladiators, it's great for us, great for sensation but ask the family of the pilot that didn't came back...

It's like beaching after E-Bike, we're not gonna be able to avoid it, and when you try one (i played with a ZeroMotorcycle for 2 days) it's great sensation despite the engine sound but you still have vibrations to know where your engine is.
Title: Re: For Those Of You...
Post by: HornetMaX on May 20, 2018, 08:56:56 PM
Quote from: speedfr on May 20, 2018, 05:35:38 PM
That's why i understand this "progress" and even if it like kills the race a little bit.(ABS is off, TCS is there for highside mostly so maybe the EB is too much but hey, it's a 4 stroke so it naturally brakes a lot more than a 2 stroke).
Funny enough, TCS in MotoGP is primarily not a safety feature: it's something that allows to go faster because it avoids the tyre getting too hot by sliding too much (even on straights) any time you open the throttle and unleash the demential power todays bikes have. Take TCS away and they would have to limit the displacement by a lot, or tyres would last 5 laps (or have grip levels of 15 years ago).

Quote from: speedfr on May 20, 2018, 05:35:38 PM
Aren't you guys sad each TT when we count the missing ones after ?
I fear the answer it's gonna come from some ...
Title: Re: For Those Of You...
Post by: speedfr on May 20, 2018, 09:29:24 PM
@HornetMax : i don't know for sure what means "funny enough" in here so i'll wait to know before answering deeper.

Anyway, the end of the highsides on GP (and everywhere) came with the traction control following the angle the bike takes (gyroscope+accelerometer). At first TCS was there to avoid burning tyres on re-acceleration but today, if you move that out the MotoGP and Moto3, highsides are back right away. And they are waiting for the Triumph engine to be able to implement it on Moto2.
So i'm sorry for the integrist  ;D but it's a must have today and yes, that allow the riders to put gaz max "without thinking", the electronics wiill do the job. Sad but "modern"...

Title: Re: For Those Of You...
Post by: BOBR6 84 on May 21, 2018, 07:47:13 AM
BSB  8) no electronic aids.

The TT... the biggest danger is the track itself.. you make a mistake the consequences are usually bad.

In my opinion TC hasnt stopped highsides etc.. better tyre technology, engine power delivery, suspension and everything else is far better than it used to be.. it all helps to make the bike better and faster. Also TCS is adjustable to suit any bike/rider soooo.... it takes nothing away from a talented rider.

Title: Re: For Those Of You...
Post by: HornetMaX on May 21, 2018, 08:10:33 AM
Quote from: speedfr on May 20, 2018, 09:29:24 PM
@HornetMax : i don't know for sure what means "funny enough" in here so i'll wait to know before answering deeper.
Nothing special, I thought it was funny because the TCS is probablt the feature that people (in general, not necessarily you) associoate most with safety and, while this is true for road bikes, in motogp bikes it's something that allows the rider to go faster. In motogp safety was (and likely isn't) the TCS "raison d'etre" . FIrstly, it allows to avoid overheating the tyre (which in turn allow for a better tyre, hence faster laps).

Quote from: speedfr on May 20, 2018, 09:29:24 PM
Anyway, the end of the highsides on GP (and everywhere) came with the traction control following the angle the bike takes (gyroscope+accelerometer). At first TCS was there to avoid burning tyres on re-acceleration but today, if you move that out the MotoGP and Moto3, highsides are back right away. And they are waiting for the Triumph engine to be able to implement it on Moto2.
So i'm sorry for the integrist  ;D but it's a must have today and yes, that allow the riders to put gaz max "without thinking", the electronics wiill do the job. Sad but "modern"...
I still see a fair share of highsides, like Crutchlow last saturday, Pedrosa in COTA, ... it is true that there are less than a long time ago but as bobr6 said, this also comes due to other reasons.
Title: Re: For Those Of You...
Post by: davidboda46 on May 21, 2018, 01:34:35 PM

I still see a fair share of highsides, like Crutchlow last saturday, Pedrosa in COTA, ... it is true that there are less than a long time ago but as bobr6 said, this also comes due to other reasons.
[/quote]

The reason for the many highsides at Le Mans is down to the resurfaced track. Very high grip levels, but that comes with the drawback of less progressive loss of the grip. So, basically, Lots of grip, lots of grip, no grip and no warning ahead of it, lots of grip, superman rider... pain...

On greasier tracks the slides, both front and rear, are not so sudden.

Cheers,

/David "Gonzo" Boda #46 
Title: Re: For Those Of You...
Post by: speedfr on May 21, 2018, 02:47:07 PM
Yep, still too much highsides but they are rares today. Which is great.

@HornetMax : sorry, i didn't want takes and answer things the wrong way, thank you for your reply.

And about TT, i agree it's not a TCS or a anti-wheelie that's gonna make the race safer, the place itself is a dangerous track. Beautiful but dangerous.

Iannone, Dovi and Zarco will probably love the side-fart "loosing the front" saver  ;D
Title: Re: For Those Of You...
Post by: IronHorse on June 02, 2018, 06:45:32 AM
Forgive if someone has brought this up, but...


Imagine someone is riding around a corner, and the road (as all roads are) gets a bit bumpy and the gas accidentally goes off which stands the bike up to the surprise of the rider and he goes flying off a cliff only to get impaled on a gothic style spike statue in the garden of a wealthy businessman?

Ok he could have landed anywhere ;D... But i think electronics are not perfect and this system has too much power imo. You are riding with a side rocket waiting to blast and you trust it will know when to fire it? Still cool though