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Messages - Stout Johnson

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1
Off Topic / Re: My thoughts on the ArgentinaGP and its consequences.
« on: April 15, 2018, 05:07:18 AM »
Nice write up, even if I disagree on a few things, that in particular:
Quote
Iím not sure. Did he take less care because it was Valentino Rossi ahead of him? Definitely.
He did more or less the same thing with Espargaro and, probably, he would have done the same thing with anybody.
Overall great read David!

But I agree with MaX on the point with Rossi (well except for that "Hooligan" stuff ... too dramatic wording, but we get used to it  ;) ). You can ask the question whether Marquez might have been extra ruthless with Rossi. But you cannot positively substantiate that he did it. So your "Definitely" should have been a "Possibly" at the most. I think not even Marquez could really answer that question to you. He was just in a sort of a tunnel and trying to get through the pack of riders (who were all considerably slower than him) at the fastest way possible. He did it to an extent that it became very ruthless and dangerous and treated other riders as objects. He might have still thought that he had a chance to win, so he took extra risks maybe to achieve sth extraordinary and still win. And in doing that he obviously lost control over the risk/reward ratio. And he didn't care about other rider's health and race. That alone tells you a lot about the character Marquez is.  :(

But there is no way, you can argue that he took even less care against Rossi. Sure, the impact with Rossi was the most severe. But it could just be a coincidence.

I wouldn't blame race direction to much for the start mess with Miller: to me what is lacking is a proper rule for this kind of situations in the rule book.
The rules concerning this situation was outlined by Janaucarre above. The riders have the sighting lap to finally decide on which tyres they intend to use.
First, they all have done one lap before the warmup and the start, so they have been able to know wich tyres they need
Second, in a same case, all the driver should not be autorised to come back at pit and change tyres, they sould start and come to pit after one lap or more. It's my best reflection on this story. Miller took a risk and perhaps be punished if rain was coming, so the other who didn't take risk (all), must be punished because they choose bad.

As a race director, would you go with a never-tried-before race start procedure like the one you propose ?
The correct procedure according to the rules would have had all riders except for Miller to start from the pit lane. It has been done before on Sachsenring 2014 where almost the whole field started from the pit after changing tyres last second. It was chaotic, yes. But every start is chaotic and it was not signficantly more dangerous than a regular start. Also the pit-lane in Argentina is less narrow than it was on Sachsenring. But the most important thing: It is the correct way according to the rules and it would have been in compliance with what was rules back in 2014 on Sachsenring. Riders need consistency from the race commission. And riders that take a risk and that would have had to deal with the consequences if his strategy would not pay off, should not be defrauded off their advantage if their strategy does pay off.

2
Off Topic / Re: FIM MotoGP/Moto2/Moto3 2018
« on: April 13, 2018, 06:20:41 AM »
Hehe no I am careful not to read too much. As far as I can tell 2 strokes are back in this race? Lol  :D
LOL  ;D  one would get the impression...

Jack I feel sorry for - that start decision?

Crutchlow is winning championship - Boom! As an 'Icelandic' Brit this is fantastic. 8)
Yes. That Miller-topic also fell short, because of all the other drama. Race commission screwed up big-time and in all likelihood robbed him off a win. Those bold decisions need to be rewarded. But I think those officials didn't want to have too much scuffle there for the championship top-contenders and wanted to not have all start from the pit-lane. But it would have been the correct way according to the rules. Miller was robbed.
And Crutchlow is in good shape this year. Seems to be very wise. This may help. I see him in the top5 for the championship.

3
Off Topic / Re: FIM MotoGP/Moto2/Moto3 2018
« on: April 12, 2018, 11:48:21 AM »
I still haven't seen this goddamn race yet. I look forward to reading this whole thread after tho. Must be a good race to kick-start such a long discussion  ;D
Hope you haven't spoilered it too much for yourself by sniffing in here.  ;)

4
Off Topic / Re: FIM MotoGP/Moto2/Moto3 2018
« on: April 12, 2018, 07:39:10 AM »
Max. I didn't at all say, "Nah, I remember it right, it was fair"; I wish you wouldn't quote statements I didn't make..... You'd make a very good newspaper-journalist mate. Lol!  ;D
;D indeed, he has a tendency. I remember similar things from the discussion after Sepang Clash.

[...] they seem to think behaviour like that is to be expected and the normal thing to do to win races.... There is just no honour in the sport these days....
I think that for sure is a generalization. The majority of riders does have honor and respects the ethics of sports. Just look at all the statements after last sunday's race. The vast majority was very very critical of MM's actions. Or look at how the 4 guys in front bravely but respectfully fought for the win (Zarco didn't do any stupid moves after the Pedrosa incident).

I think the whole discussion concerning the old days does not lead anywhere. Whether or not there was unsportsmanlike behaviour back in the days, whether it was equal, worse or better... I think there will never be a consensus. This discussion would only be fruitful if there was a similar situation of excessive aggressiveness of 1 or 2 riders and if rule changes or actions by the race commission ended up making riders ride safely and respectful again. Then we could argue for certain actions on how to get rid of reckless and dangerous behaviour we have seen recently. Other than that I am afraid, this discussion will be a waste of time.

5
Off Topic / Re: FIM MotoGP/Moto2/Moto3 2018
« on: April 10, 2018, 11:32:31 AM »
Hope we don't get side-tracked in the discussion here. From my point of view it could very well be the case, that we had similar aggressive behaviour in the old times. I don't know those old times.

For me it is important to look at the current era, because the past is the past. I just see that the current way of fighting for the win, which has been established by Marquez, and also seems to be used by Zarco and Iannone (not lately though) to some degree would be really detrimental to the sport. As much drama as it had, I did not really enjoy the last race. It left an awful taste in my mouth because of the antics of Marquez. Last time I felt similarly, was after the Sepang Clash.

And all this despite the fact that the four guys battling for the win (Crutchlow, Zarco, Rins, Miller) were having an awesome and totally fair battle for the win (Zarco's maneouver towards Pedrosa excluded). That was fun to watch and inspring. And all that seemed to be less important because of what happend with a guy trying to battle for 5th place. If MM would have just ridden with normal aggressiveness, he still would have been by far the fastest guy. He would have been able to finish 5th, without risking his health and the health of others, without risking his race and that of Espargaro and Rossi, gain important points for the championship and would not have made a fool of himself.

It is a bright spot to see guys like Rins have so much success. He may look like a donkey, but I truly have become a fan of him. He is the prototype of a perfect racer. Similar to Dovizioso and Pedrosa. Be fast, but always race fair and respect your fellow competitors. I just hope that the bad behaviour does not become accepted behaviour. Imo the race commission has to ensure that by penalizing dangerous behaviour more strictly.

6
Off Topic / Re: FIM MotoGP/Moto2/Moto3 2018
« on: April 10, 2018, 09:28:49 AM »
He was trying (too much) to win, not to crash whoever else.
I agree with that. But I did not say anything else. He intended to bounce off the other riders, hoping they can ride on too of course. Anything else would be sociopathical, which he is not. But his plan was to bounce off of other riders if they do not concede and run wide on their own.


If we are sure he intentionally went for contact/crashed the other rider, black flag or 1 race suspension is not enough. But we aren't.
I agree, we cannot be sure about this. But this is an immanent problem with all motives. I work in the law segment and there is a similar problem with sanctions in penal law where the motive of a person is part of what is viewed condemnable behaviour. If we cannot look inside the brain, then we have to resort to the fact that actions are the outer representation of one's motives. So e.g. if a court assumes a murder is premeditated, then it is due to some verifiable actions which are in accordance with planned behaviour (e.g. buying a murder weapon before the murder). I would argue that the fact that MM has made the exact same move the whole weekend should have had a learning effect on such a skilled rider over the course of the weekend. To the effect that such behaviour should have been avoidable. And if it is not avoided it can be considered intentional or at least highly negligent which is considered almost as condemnable and should request similar sanctions.

My 2 cents on this. I accept your view.


Racing is not about epic moves to boast about. Racing is about seeing who is fastest plus respecting each other's equal chances and rules of safety.

Oh come on ... racing history is 95% made of epic moves and battles. And sometimes they just end with one (or two) in the gravel.
Of course what is remembered are moments that stand out. But epic moves should not be the goal of one's actions. Then the risk/reward ratio is biased if the move itself is part of the reward. Great moves come by themselves if racing happens, they cannot/should not be aimed at.

I stand by my opinion that respecting each other's equal chances and rules of safety are the basis for any sports.

7
Off Topic / Re: FIM MotoGP/Moto2/Moto3 2018
« on: April 10, 2018, 08:28:46 AM »
I haven't seen a lot of people saying MM was borderline OK. Almost everybody agrees the sanction(s) were fair.
Then you have some saying black flags + race ban are needed. This is where I disagree. Strongly.
That is what I mean with borderline ok. Sorry I was not really clear about that. Rossi should have seen the black Flag in Sepang Clash, Marquez should have seen black flag after he made the exact same stupid move for the 3rd time in the same fooking race!!! One time with Espargaro can happen, but one should be more cautious after that. He was not at all, seemed even more aggressive. Then he had another incident with Rabat I think (?), where he was ordered to drop one place, then several other overtakes which were questionable (but maybe ok), then the incident with Rossi where he was totally off the charts. That's just too much. He did not show in any way that he did not mean to do that. He raced like he could ride through other riders (is he playing too much Milestone games in his free time?) or as if he made a habit of bouncing off other riders, so he can take the corner while other's not. It happened many times, many riders were endangered by him, in two incidents the riders even had to take a DNF (Espargaro, Rossi - well Rossi had 0 points).

Imho, it should be a black flag. It can be argued differently, I see that and I respect you opinion. But please respect other's opinion on this matter.

Maybe the rule book should change. One incident during a race which is deemed dangerous/irresponsible should automatically be flagged with a sort of a yellow card. Any further incident which is deemed dangerous/irresponsible should automatically be a black flag? I am not really in favor of such hard rules. I prefer to leave the decision to the stewards and let them assess it according to the whole circumstances. But if we have flexible rules, we need stewards which really have the balls to take action if someone disregards fairness and safety blatantly. And MM did that in Argentina. The stewards lately try not to take too hard sanctions in order to let the riders battle it out on track. The thinking in general is ok, but rules of safety and fairplay ethics stand higher imho. Otherwise the behaviour on track will change by all riders.

The line between a gutsy overtake and a too dangerous one is very thin: a bit less of contact, MM not going so wide (pushing VR out) and it would have been an epic move, one that VR could boast about in the aftermath if done by himself. MM took a risk, overdid it, things went wrong, got a penalty. All fine and sorry for VR, shit happens.
That's where I strongly disagree. That is the exact thinking by MM - which results in such behaviour. If MM had had only one such incident, I would agree with you. It can happen. But he made a habit of this dangerous move during the whole weekend. Corner 13 in Argentina allows to brake late if the rider lifts the bike up a bit, then run from the inside towards the outside, run the other rider off a bit, then accelerate hard from the inside. To a certain degree this can be seen a race overtake. But MM made a habit of braking so late that contact was unavoidable. He anticipated the contact and knew he would make contact. It was part of his plan. That is where it is not a fair race overtake. In Rossi's case he was braking so late that in fact he would have had trouble to make the corner even if he would have been on his own. This driving is simply unacceptable. I am sorry, imho there is no other opinion to this. Otherwise we would allow carnage on track.

Racing is not about epic moves to boast about. Racing is about seeing who is fastest plus respecting each other's equal chances and rules of safety.

8
Off Topic / Re: FIM MotoGP/Moto2/Moto3 2018
« on: April 10, 2018, 05:14:21 AM »
But how does it come nobody complains about Zarco ?!
He did essetially the same thing and it's not exactly the 1st time ... still, nobody cares. Weird ...
If people are even argueing that MM behaviour is borderline ok, it does not make sense to talk about Zarco. That's why. Zarco's behaviour also was a very bad move and he has a history of it. Race commission needs to keep him in check as well. But it was one reckless move by Zarco the whole weekend. For the whole weekend Marquez had many reckless moves. I remember seeing him reckless in practice sessions even this weekend. To be quite honest, if Dovizioso was not so well prepared mentally, we would have seen the great last corner overtakes from Marquez not being countered my Dovi, but we would have seen Marquez run into Dovi in the last corner of Qatar 2018 and Austria 2017, maybe even crashing Dovi. Dovi had attitude, skills and plan to counter it. But he could anticipate it since it was the last corner in the last lap. Espargaro and Rossi did not have much of a chance.

And I do not agree with all things Mr Rossi says. But he is right with one thing. Reckless behaviour like we have seen could very well raise the bar of how aggressive overtaking will take place in general. Not every rider has the genetically aggressive style like Marquez. But every rider wants to win and some might adapt. I am even worried at the moment that Rossi may make a stupid move again Š la Sepang 2015 in the upcoming races. He seems to think he is the council of elders and has to keep MM in check himself.

I want race commission to take care of this so we won't see any stupid moves, neither initiated by guys like Marquez, Zarco or Iannone nor any even more stupid retaliation moves from Rossi.

9
Off Topic / Re: FIM MotoGP/Moto2/Moto3 2018
« on: April 09, 2018, 09:52:04 PM »
We say this as if it is the first time this is happening.

Okay the dominance of a single rider is newish to this era but each generation of new riders is faster than the last and that is just how the sport develops. What shouldnt be happening is letting riders get away with reckless and unessecerry actions.
Totally agree. Marquez is riding irl like he was riding in a video game. As if crashing could not end fatal. Race commission needs to step in with harsh sanctions to enforce a certain behaviour / penalize unacceptable behaviour. This is not about Rossi, this is about safety and fair-play. Aleix Espargaro's race was also totally destroyed by MM. He does not seem to care.

And let's not forget he almost killed Wilairot in Moto2.  >:(

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/UVbK3cqTr7c" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/UVbK3cqTr7c</a>

10
General Discussion / Re: Regular race meets
« on: March 31, 2018, 10:04:46 AM »
Just curious if there are any regular race meets ? anyone running races even a season ?
Not yet as far as know. I am planning on doing some RX races, maybe even a championship. But imho, the tire physics don't really allow for competitve racing at the moment. The RX cars for example have a tendency to bounce high in the air off curbs. Also there are some overheating tendencies with tires of some cars.

11
General Discussion / Re: My personal valuation of GPBikes
« on: March 31, 2018, 06:38:16 AM »
I've recently been to some "comptetitive" judo tournament for kids aged 8-14: the number of parents (fathers *and* mothers) I would have immediately terminated is just amazing.
No way these people could transmit any sort of respect to a kid. So the kid will grow up and become an asshole. Not his fault. But the problem is that he will have kids too one day ... :)
I see that too. And I am under the impression that those parents which are assholes seem to have a higher reproduction rates. So this asshole behaviour seems to become the norm.

12
General Discussion / Re: My personal valuation of GPBikes
« on: March 29, 2018, 01:04:42 PM »
If you really believe that without any injuries, unlimited bikes, these guys would go much faster than I think you don't grasp how skilled these guys are. They are always ON the limit, if they go over it, they feel it/ catch the bike most of the times. Its not because the bike is sliding that you crash. If there was no risk in what they were doing I doubt they would even be going 0.2 faster than with risks.
I don't think they would be going much faster in one lap over the course of many laps. You are right, I would say they'd be only marginally faster for their best lap time if the number of laps is large enough. What I meant was, irl you have a tendency to approach the limit 'from the bottom', by getting progressively faster. Each lap you push a bit more, because falling has consequences. In GPB people have a tendency to approach the limit 'from above', by going all out from the get-go, crashing a lot. Until they manage to get away with everything and finish a lap. And that sort of conditions the average GPB rider to ride recklessly, with a tendency to push over the limit. I think that is one reason why people crash so often in races.

The only thing stopping these guys to go faster is the amount of grip there is, not the amount of risk they are willing to take.
I don't want to argue over this, because it is not that relevant for the inital topic. But in a race you cannot go at 100% risk, otherwise you won't finish. Humans are not robots, we all have a margin of error. And if you aim at going 100%, you might be able to do that for 5 laps, but you are going to hit 100.1% sooner or later and you are out of the race.  If you aim at 100% of your limit each lap, you might finish a race with 1% chance. If you aim at 99% of your limit each lap, you might finish a race with 50% chance. If you aim at at 98% of your limit each lap, you might finish a race with 80% chance etc. etc. If you aim at at 90% of your limit each lap, you might finish a race with 99% chance. And those percentages differ for each rider, based on their talent. It is always a risk-reward ratio. Nobody can consistently go at the limit and expect to finish a race. Great riders are fast AND have a smaller margin of error, so they can go fast more consistently.

I remember a Ayrton Senna quote. I cannot find it by googling, but from the top of my head it was to the effect that one can approach 100% risk during Qualifying and during some laps in a race. But over a whole race distance one has to resort to 95% of one's own maximum, otherwise one will crash out. A friend of mine had that quote printed on his wall and I thought that makes a lot sense.

Btw, why do you think Rossi has a tendency to have far better race results than qualifying? My take is that Rossi has a tendency to take 1% less risk in qualifying because he knows it is not worth it. Taking that 1% more could cost him the season (and he has only 2-3 seasons left) while all he can gain is 3-5 spots in the starting grid. And in the race he has the ability to race very consistent at a high level out-performing riders that are not faster than him, but were willing to take higher risks in qualifying. According to your logic (every rider always is at 100%), there would be no difference in race and qualifying pace between riders...

13
General Discussion / Re: MotoGP 18 Announced from Milestone
« on: March 29, 2018, 11:17:49 AM »
Quote from:  link=topic=5824.msg88379#msg88379 date=1522315997
[...] to include real MotoGP ridersí faces in game

[...] make the game experience as immersive as ever, such as new cutscenes, the spectator mode
I like their priority setting. They know what is most important.  ;D

Quote from:  link=topic=5824.msg88379#msg88379 date=1522315997
[...] to offer a more enjoyable simulation at every level
They should be smacked, tarred and feathered for using this word in connection with their game. We live in a time where words are used totally out of context.  ::)

14
General Discussion / Re: My personal valuation of GPBikes
« on: March 29, 2018, 11:08:22 AM »
Oops my post became very long. My main point is: I would like to see more real-life-like track behaviour. I think we need more real-life-like consequences for that. I see Wimp's point that racing should not feel like a crash avoiding walk on egg-shells. But if we have consistent physics, real life like races are definitely possible in GPB. We already have that with experienced riders. And one has to practice and practice and practice. I had the best races with fellow GPB-veterans in onboard-view-only races. Close racing, few to none crashes, consistent paces and gentlemen-like fair behaviour. That's how it should be imo.

Imho a better risk-reward ratio would generally help to establish consistent race approach. Ride consistently without crashing will make one fast automatically sooner or later (each has his own plateau of course, not everyone has the same talent). At the moment we generally have a all-out fastest-lap-time-is-all-that-counts-even-if-I-crash-9-out-of10-laps-approach. And that makes for bad racing. My proposal would be to make a adjustable g-force related 'damage-system' which might result in a DNF. 

@Wimp: If you are too worried about every crash causing DNF's, then you should be able to adjust the g-force to a high enough value so that only high-impact (=high level of recklessness/risky behaviour) crashes result in a DNF.

I would even welcome options Š la SBK X and SBK 2011 as having calculated repair times for the bike, possible injuries to the rider calculated which might prevent finishing the race event, having to drive into pits all the time instead of just clicking 'go to pits' etc.  8) that would totally add to the sim experience and to the level of immersion.

Take damage away from any of the top level car racing games abd they could decend into a demolition derby if allowed to by its community.
Good point. Totally agree.

15
General Discussion / Re: My personal valuation of GPBikes
« on: March 29, 2018, 09:14:21 AM »
@Wimp:
First of all, I can follow you arguments. They seem logic and than in itself is something that should be applauded. :) But I have a different view on some of your remarks.

If we would implement a damage system it could cause that pace to drop even more to a point where people are riding just in fear of crashing and not flowing on the track.
I have done many races where I did not crash and I had a pace that was in a realistic relation to my qualifying times. It is doable in GPB as it doable irl. It would be even easier to do with some physics flaws out of the way (which we all agree on should be the prerequisite). But I agree with you, that irl you have much more feedback from the bike. So to be able to do it in GPB, you need much more practice in GPB than irl. All has to be automatic. The braking points, the downshifts, the amount of leaning. All has to be automatic. And I disagree that real life riders don't have a fear for crashing.

In real life you don't "fear" crashing when you are racing especially not when you feel comfortable.
Not sure whether "fear" is the right word. But a risk-reward-relation is always part of racing. You can clearly see that real life riders often could be faster, but they don't try to push it in order to be able to finish the race. Just look at Dovizioso last year. He was a master at this. He could hold off for the 3/4 of a race, not doing more than he needed to do. Then he would do a push within the last laps to seperate himself from the pack. Real life racing is always not only about all out racing but also about risk management. And those guys we see on TV are the absolute best of the best. Many of those you see in a GPB server are just casuals at best.

Making a damage system will make people much slower than they are right now. Which would actually get us further from the realistic pace simulation...
That would only be true if you did not have to care about crashes in qualifying and would not have to care about crashing in racing. Irl, riders very rarely go at 100% risk, even in practices or qualifyings. Because you always have to take into consideration, that you would totally demolish your bike, you would lose ~15mins to go back to the pits to be able to go out again (if you have a second bike), you might injure yourself which hurts, you might injure yourself long-term which might cost your championship aspirations, you might ruin the engine if it runs in the sand pit etc. etc. There's a thousand reasons to take into consideration. And those apply for all riders.

That is why the lap times irl would also be much faster if players could never be injured, had unlimited amount of bikes available if they crash. They would risk so much more. So your argument concerning the difference between realistic gap between Q and Race times does not apply. We would have the exact same as irl, if we could not go all out at all times in GPB.

So your argument is to not have realistic damage because the difference between Q and Race times would be too big? If we had simulation of rider injuries and limited bikes to crash we would have the same difference. I think in the SBK X title there were realism settings which allowed for player injuries and also took bike repair times into consideration. That was pretty awesome. I don't necessarily say we need that (although I would love to have that). But you have to see why your argumentation is not based on the correct assumptions.

The whole point is to make people drive less reckless, a penalty system should be designed, not a damage system.
So I should be penalized if I lowside on my own without anyone else involved? I guess you don't mean that. You probably mean only for crashes between riders? But how do you implement that? This is hard/impossible to code in order not to penalize the rider that was the victim. It would need real players to act as race stewards. That would be possible. But probably not too many volunteers to do that.

But it would still not take away the unfair and unrealistic advantage that players that crash often should have much less chances to win. Being slower without crashing should always be promoted. It is realistic. And if we had a general approach to avoid crashing first, I think we might see much more realistic races. From my observation the way it is at the moment, people always try to go all out, try to hammer a time and go up there on the time sheet. They crash 20times until they finally manage to get 1 complete lap and then applaud themselves for their time. They condition themselves to drive recklessly. Then those people struggle in the race because after 2-3 laps max they crash, then get nervous, crash even more and finally are frustrated with the result because they feel they under-achieved ("well I had 3rd fastest time in Q, but I only finished 9th ... I deserve to be 3rd in the race."). Or they rage-quit in the race.

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