Messages

I missed the race, do you have a video showing the Miller/Marquez thing ?

https://twitter.com/i/status/1038760231566757888

Hard but normal racing overtake imho.

First and foremost: Fenati should just be banned for life. He is a dangerous a..hole who does not have his emotions in check. He had some unacceptable behaviour before (kicking other riders). He is a tool, he should be dumped.

If there is no problem, then why not doing the handshake and prove it ?
Saying "I have no problem with MM but I won't shake his hand" is contradictory.
Obviously, there is a problem. And that's fine, unless one declares "I have no problem".

Strange logic. Just imagine someone asking Pedrosa and Dovizioso to shake hands. If Pedrosa said "there is no need to, we are fine" you would assume he is having a problem with Dovizioso?!

You are assuming he would be fine in doing it behind the scene ...

You are assuming he isn't. Based on what? Because you know him personally? Because you can read his mind?

You are imputing things. You obviously do not like Rossi - which is perfectly fine. But don't try to argue things which are clearly only your subjective interpretation.

People are making too much of a fuss about it now. It was just plain stupid by the reporters to ask about it. There was no need for hand-shaking, so why ask about it? Rossi for sure still disdains Marquez' behaviour in Argentina. But that is a 'cold case' now. Many riders expressed their concerns regarding MM dangerous riding in Argentina and that was it. Since then MM has ridden mostly conservatively, so all is good. If MM and Rossi should happen to have clean nice battles on track again, they will be shaking hands after a nice battle like in Barcelona 2016. But out of nowhere, after some stupid questions of sensationalist reporters, why shake hands if there is no need to?

Quite an interesting read on why Lorenzo is so fast lately. The article is in german, so I google-translated it below for anybody who likes to read it.
https://www.motorsport-magazin.com/motogp/news-248051-motogp-deshalb-macht-jorge-lorenzo-sein-neuer-tank-so-schnell/


It's always the same factors that determine whether a MotoGP machine is fast or not: a powerful engine, sophisticated aerodynamics, a good frame. A component like the tank is attracting comparatively little attention, and yet it is this who made the fastest rider in the field on the last two race weekends from a struggling Jorge Lorenzo.

How is that possible? The reason lies in the driving style that the Michelin tires demand from the MotoGP riders. In the Bridgestone era, they were able to brake in an angle deep into the curve, the front tire offered even then enough grip, so as not to crash. The Michelin tires have a different characteristic, so they work differently. They offer excellent grip when braking in an upright position, but little grip when braking in an inclined position. As a result, the driver must accomplish virtually the entire deceleration before the machine is turned.
This, in turn, means that there is only a limited amount of time available to brake in, without losing unnecessary milliseconds, hundredths or even tenths of a second. That's why the pilots now take a particularly brave approach to the brakes at this stage, the MotoGP machines' carbon systems provide an incomparable  deceleration. Initially, Lorenzo could not cope with those forces on the Ducati in the long term. After a few laps, he lost his strength, as he explained himself. The new tank - although on a MotoGP bike a dummy-tank, while the tank itself is mostly under the seat - has been laterally widened with additional covers that allow Lorenzo to better resist to withstand the acting forces whilst braking.

Since then, Lorenzo can not only use the good braking behavior of the Ducati when the motorcycle is set up, as in the past over a lap, but over a whole race distance. None of his Desmosedici colleagues can currently brake as hard as Lorenzo, Pramac man Jack Miller explains: "Jorge actually lets the tire collapse all the time, but he feels safe, the rest of us - or especially me - deforms the tires hardly, because I'm used to being thrown in the air if I do that. "

Lorenzo himself confirms the importance of the new tank for him: "We've taken a lot of steps in the right direction over the last few months, we've found the speed, so all we had to do was keep up the pace the last part that was still missing, now I feel comfortable throughout the race, before I had to tear down towards the end, because I was too tired. "


Edit: also interesting, covering similar topic...
https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/899111/1/miller-lorenzo-confident-collapsing-front

Nice write up, even if I disagree on a few things, that in particular:

I'm not sure. Did he take less care because it was Valentino Rossi ahead of him? Definitely.

He did more or less the same thing with Espargaro and, probably, he would have done the same thing with anybody.

Overall great read David!

But I agree with MaX on the point with Rossi (well except for that "Hooligan" stuff ... too dramatic wording, but we get used to it  ). You can ask the question whether Marquez might have been extra ruthless with Rossi. But you cannot positively substantiate that he did it. So your "Definitely" should have been a "Possibly" at the most. I think not even Marquez could really answer that question to you. He was just in a sort of a tunnel and trying to get through the pack of riders (who were all considerably slower than him) at the fastest way possible. He did it to an extent that it became very ruthless and dangerous and treated other riders as objects. He might have still thought that he had a chance to win, so he took extra risks maybe to achieve sth extraordinary and still win. And in doing that he obviously lost control over the risk/reward ratio. And he didn't care about other rider's health and race. That alone tells you a lot about the character Marquez is. 

But there is no way, you can argue that he took even less care against Rossi. Sure, the impact with Rossi was the most severe. But it could just be a coincidence.

I wouldn't blame race direction to much for the start mess with Miller: to me what is lacking is a proper rule for this kind of situations in the rule book.

The rules concerning this situation was outlined by Janaucarre above. The riders have the sighting lap to finally decide on which tyres they intend to use.

First, they all have done one lap before the warmup and the start, so they have been able to know wich tyres they need
Second, in a same case, all the driver should not be autorised to come back at pit and change tyres, they sould start and come to pit after one lap or more. It's my best reflection on this story. Miller took a risk and perhaps be punished if rain was coming, so the other who didn't take risk (all), must be punished because they choose bad.

As a race director, would you go with a never-tried-before race start procedure like the one you propose ?

The correct procedure according to the rules would have had all riders except for Miller to start from the pit lane. It has been done before on Sachsenring 2014 where almost the whole field started from the pit after changing tyres last second. It was chaotic, yes. But every start is chaotic and it was not signficantly more dangerous than a regular start. Also the pit-lane in Argentina is less narrow than it was on Sachsenring. But the most important thing: It is the correct way according to the rules and it would have been in compliance with what was rules back in 2014 on Sachsenring. Riders need consistency from the race commission. And riders that take a risk and that would have had to deal with the consequences if his strategy would not pay off, should not be defrauded off their advantage if their strategy does pay off.

Hehe no I am careful not to read too much. As far as I can tell 2 strokes are back in this race? Lol 

LOL    one would get the impression...

Jack I feel sorry for - that start decision?

Crutchlow is winning championship - Boom! As an 'Icelandic' Brit this is fantastic.

Yes. That Miller-topic also fell short, because of all the other drama. Race commission screwed up big-time and in all likelihood robbed him off a win. Those bold decisions need to be rewarded. But I think those officials didn't want to have too much scuffle there for the championship top-contenders and wanted to not have all start from the pit-lane. But it would have been the correct way according to the rules. Miller was robbed.
And Crutchlow is in good shape this year. Seems to be very wise. This may help. I see him in the top5 for the championship.

I still haven't seen this goddamn race yet. I look forward to reading this whole thread after tho. Must be a good race to kick-start such a long discussion 

Hope you haven't spoilered it too much for yourself by sniffing in here. 

Max. I didn't at all say, "Nah, I remember it right, it was fair"; I wish you wouldn't quote statements I didn't make..... You'd make a very good newspaper-journalist mate. Lol! 

indeed, he has a tendency. I remember similar things from the discussion after Sepang Clash.

[...] they seem to think behaviour like that is to be expected and the normal thing to do to win races.... There is just no honour in the sport these days....

I think that for sure is a generalization. The majority of riders does have honor and respects the ethics of sports. Just look at all the statements after last sunday's race. The vast majority was very very critical of MM's actions. Or look at how the 4 guys in front bravely but respectfully fought for the win (Zarco didn't do any stupid moves after the Pedrosa incident).

I think the whole discussion concerning the old days does not lead anywhere. Whether or not there was unsportsmanlike behaviour back in the days, whether it was equal, worse or better... I think there will never be a consensus. This discussion would only be fruitful if there was a similar situation of excessive aggressiveness of 1 or 2 riders and if rule changes or actions by the race commission ended up making riders ride safely and respectful again. Then we could argue for certain actions on how to get rid of reckless and dangerous behaviour we have seen recently. Other than that I am afraid, this discussion will be a waste of time.

[That]

Hope we don't get side-tracked in the discussion here. From my point of view it could very well be the case, that we had similar aggressive behaviour in the old times. I don't know those old times.

For me it is important to look at the current era, because the past is the past. I just see that the current way of fighting for the win, which has been established by Marquez, and also seems to be used by Zarco and Iannone (not lately though) to some degree would be really detrimental to the sport. As much drama as it had, I did not really enjoy the last race. It left an awful taste in my mouth because of the antics of Marquez. Last time I felt similarly, was after the Sepang Clash.

And all this despite the fact that the four guys battling for the win (Crutchlow, Zarco, Rins, Miller) were having an awesome and totally fair battle for the win (Zarco's maneouver towards Pedrosa excluded). That was fun to watch and inspring. And all that seemed to be less important because of what happend with a guy trying to battle for 5th place. If MM would have just ridden with normal aggressiveness, he still would have been by far the fastest guy. He would have been able to finish 5th, without risking his health and the health of others, without risking his race and that of Espargaro and Rossi, gain important points for the championship and would not have made a fool of himself.

It is a bright spot to see guys like Rins have so much success. He may look like a donkey, but I truly have become a fan of him. He is the prototype of a perfect racer. Similar to Dovizioso and Pedrosa. Be fast, but always race fair and respect your fellow competitors. I just hope that the bad behaviour does not become accepted behaviour. Imo the race commission has to ensure that by penalizing dangerous behaviour more strictly.

He was trying (too much) to win, not to crash whoever else.

I agree with that. But I did not say anything else. He intended to bounce off the other riders, hoping they can ride on too of course. Anything else would be sociopathical, which he is not. But his plan was to bounce off of other riders if they do not concede and run wide on their own.

If we are sure he intentionally went for contact/crashed the other rider, black flag or 1 race suspension is not enough. But we aren't.

I agree, we cannot be sure about this. But this is an immanent problem with all motives. I work in the law segment and there is a similar problem with sanctions in penal law where the motive of a person is part of what is viewed condemnable behaviour. If we cannot look inside the brain, then we have to resort to the fact that actions are the outer representation of one's motives. So e.g. if a court assumes a murder is premeditated, then it is due to some verifiable actions which are in accordance with planned behaviour (e.g. buying a murder weapon before the murder). I would argue that the fact that MM has made the exact same move the whole weekend should have had a learning effect on such a skilled rider over the course of the weekend. To the effect that such behaviour should have been avoidable. And if it is not avoided it can be considered intentional or at least highly negligent which is considered almost as condemnable and should request similar sanctions.

My 2 cents on this. I accept your view.

Racing is not about epic moves to boast about. Racing is about seeing who is fastest plus respecting each other's equal chances and rules of safety.

Oh come on ... racing history is 95% made of epic moves and battles. And sometimes they just end with one (or two) in the gravel.

Of course what is remembered are moments that stand out. But epic moves should not be the goal of one's actions. Then the risk/reward ratio is biased if the move itself is part of the reward. Great moves come by themselves if racing happens, they cannot/should not be aimed at.

I stand by my opinion that respecting each other's equal chances and rules of safety are the basis for any sports.

I haven't seen a lot of people saying MM was borderline OK. Almost everybody agrees the sanction(s) were fair.
Then you have some saying black flags + race ban are needed. This is where I disagree. Strongly.

That is what I mean with borderline ok. Sorry I was not really clear about that. Rossi should have seen the black Flag in Sepang Clash, Marquez should have seen black flag after he made the exact same stupid move for the 3rd time in the same fooking race!!! One time with Espargaro can happen, but one should be more cautious after that. He was not at all, seemed even more aggressive. Then he had another incident with Rabat I think (?), where he was ordered to drop one place, then several other overtakes which were questionable (but maybe ok), then the incident with Rossi where he was totally off the charts. That's just too much. He did not show in any way that he did not mean to do that. He raced like he could ride through other riders (is he playing too much Milestone games in his free time?) or as if he made a habit of bouncing off other riders, so he can take the corner while other's not. It happened many times, many riders were endangered by him, in two incidents the riders even had to take a DNF (Espargaro, Rossi - well Rossi had 0 points).

Imho, it should be a black flag. It can be argued differently, I see that and I respect you opinion. But please respect other's opinion on this matter.

Maybe the rule book should change. One incident during a race which is deemed dangerous/irresponsible should automatically be flagged with a sort of a yellow card. Any further incident which is deemed dangerous/irresponsible should automatically be a black flag? I am not really in favor of such hard rules. I prefer to leave the decision to the stewards and let them assess it according to the whole circumstances. But if we have flexible rules, we need stewards which really have the balls to take action if someone disregards fairness and safety blatantly. And MM did that in Argentina. The stewards lately try not to take too hard sanctions in order to let the riders battle it out on track. The thinking in general is ok, but rules of safety and fairplay ethics stand higher imho. Otherwise the behaviour on track will change by all riders.

The line between a gutsy overtake and a too dangerous one is very thin: a bit less of contact, MM not going so wide (pushing VR out) and it would have been an epic move, one that VR could boast about in the aftermath if done by himself. MM took a risk, overdid it, things went wrong, got a penalty. All fine and sorry for VR, shit happens.

That's where I strongly disagree. That is the exact thinking by MM - which results in such behaviour. If MM had had only one such incident, I would agree with you. It can happen. But he made a habit of this dangerous move during the whole weekend. Corner 13 in Argentina allows to brake late if the rider lifts the bike up a bit, then run from the inside towards the outside, run the other rider off a bit, then accelerate hard from the inside. To a certain degree this can be seen a race overtake. But MM made a habit of braking so late that contact was unavoidable. He anticipated the contact and knew he would make contact. It was part of his plan. That is where it is not a fair race overtake. In Rossi's case he was braking so late that in fact he would have had trouble to make the corner even if he would have been on his own. This driving is simply unacceptable. I am sorry, imho there is no other opinion to this. Otherwise we would allow carnage on track.

Racing is not about epic moves to boast about. Racing is about seeing who is fastest plus respecting each other's equal chances and rules of safety.

But how does it come nobody complains about Zarco ?!
He did essetially the same thing and it's not exactly the 1st time ... still, nobody cares. Weird ...

If people are even argueing that MM behaviour is borderline ok, it does not make sense to talk about Zarco. That's why. Zarco's behaviour also was a very bad move and he has a history of it. Race commission needs to keep him in check as well. But it was one reckless move by Zarco the whole weekend. For the whole weekend Marquez had many reckless moves. I remember seeing him reckless in practice sessions even this weekend. To be quite honest, if Dovizioso was not so well prepared mentally, we would have seen the great last corner overtakes from Marquez not being countered my Dovi, but we would have seen Marquez run into Dovi in the last corner of Qatar 2018 and Austria 2017, maybe even crashing Dovi. Dovi had attitude, skills and plan to counter it. But he could anticipate it since it was the last corner in the last lap. Espargaro and Rossi did not have much of a chance.

And I do not agree with all things Mr Rossi says. But he is right with one thing. Reckless behaviour like we have seen could very well raise the bar of how aggressive overtaking will take place in general. Not every rider has the genetically aggressive style like Marquez. But every rider wants to win and some might adapt. I am even worried at the moment that Rossi may make a stupid move again á la Sepang 2015 in the upcoming races. He seems to think he is the council of elders and has to keep MM in check himself.

I want race commission to take care of this so we won't see any stupid moves, neither initiated by guys like Marquez, Zarco or Iannone nor any even more stupid retaliation moves from Rossi.

We say this as if it is the first time this is happening.

Okay the dominance of a single rider is newish to this era but each generation of new riders is faster than the last and that is just how the sport develops. What shouldnt be happening is letting riders get away with reckless and unessecerry actions.

Totally agree. Marquez is riding irl like he was riding in a video game. As if crashing could not end fatal. Race commission needs to step in with harsh sanctions to enforce a certain behaviour / penalize unacceptable behaviour. This is not about Rossi, this is about safety and fair-play. Aleix Espargaro's race was also totally destroyed by MM. He does not seem to care.

And let's not forget he almost killed Wilairot in Moto2. 

https://www.youtube.com/v/UVbK3cqTr7c

Just curious if there are any regular race meets ? anyone running races even a season ?

Not yet as far as know. I am planning on doing some RX races, maybe even a championship. But imho, the tire physics don't really allow for competitve racing at the moment. The RX cars for example have a tendency to bounce high in the air off curbs. Also there are some overheating tendencies with tires of some cars.

I've recently been to some "comptetitive" judo tournament for kids aged 8-14: the number of parents (fathers *and* mothers) I would have immediately terminated is just amazing.
No way these people could transmit any sort of respect to a kid. So the kid will grow up and become an asshole. Not his fault. But the problem is that he will have kids too one day ...

I see that too. And I am under the impression that those parents which are assholes seem to have a higher reproduction rates. So this asshole behaviour seems to become the norm.