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My Adventures with Direct Steer w/ Torque

Started by Klax75, May 24, 2014, 11:30:21 PM

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loinen

May 18, 2017, 09:15:35 PM #210 Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 03:46:27 AM by loinen
Quote from: passerBy on May 18, 2017, 05:37:30 PM
You have missed my point. Castor angle is what makes the front wheels want to go in line with the skidding. Yes, you could just saw at the wheel frantically, but having the steering mostly doing this work for you sounds better, or doesn't it? Especially when you are left with "Degrees Of Rotation" far greater than 900.

i said the wheels are good enough. you probably said they are not good enough because... and then i said that i think they are good enough because of my RL exp. if you cant go in line with the skidding this is almost certainly not a problem of your wheel.

Quote from: passerBy on May 18, 2017, 05:37:30 PM
Again, my point wasn't that the aforementioned controllers are useless when it comes to dealing with reality. In fact, if what you said above is true, that only proves the theory that simming is not at all useless.
i didnt think that you said they are useless.

Quote from: passerBy on May 18, 2017, 05:37:30 PM
My point was that if you are ok with the level of abstraction either your X52 or the G25 forces you to deal with (not to mention an XBox controller), I see no reason why the same G25 would magically throw your suspension of disbelief off when it comes to the controller feel, once applied to GPB with DS.
because DS training is a waste of time at the end.

Quote from: passerBy on May 18, 2017, 05:37:30 PM
Quote
Quote from: passerBy on May 14, 2017, 06:43:06 PM
Using a wheel with default steering in GPB makes absolutely no sense to me. The biggest asset of a force feedback wheel controller is, well, the force feedback itself. With the default steering FFB makes no sense whatsoever: you'll be getting something completely unrelated to your input.
at least after getting used to it i easily undestand what happens to my bike, especially to the rear end.
That sounds more in the vein of your own statement about people adopting weird techniques because they refuse to know any better, honestly...
no, it doesn't. you're trying to see what you would like to see here.

Quote from: passerBy on May 18, 2017, 05:37:30 PM
Quoteseems that we are talking about different things all the time. all my words are coming from the thoughts about learning handling technique
Oh, and mine aren't? Steering is quite a big part of the handling... Some would even argue, the biggest part of it.
seems that you are mostly worrying about steering technique. from a bike's point of view :D

Quote from: passerBy on May 18, 2017, 05:37:30 PM
Quotevehicle behavior with control methods which are easy to get accustomed and do not fall in total contradiction with my perception
Why should they follow your perception in particular? Between a perception of someone on the net and the perception that comes as a result of mathematical modelling, I'd rather go with the latter. Especially when it's a facility provided by the sim author himself.
they should not follow my perception. i just said that i'm okay with them due to my RL exp. DS is shit as it is but you can go with whatever you want ofc.

Quote from: passerBy on May 18, 2017, 05:37:30 PM
Quotefor the record, if you havent watched this video by SimUK, maybe you'll find it interesting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_Vh_vsRYWs
But take a closer look at his brother. He's obviously having problems in the beginning with the default steering... Now I wonder... If DD's bars had some direct drive wheel level FFB and they tried running GPB with DS2... How that would change the outcome? Something tells me he would actually have much less problem getting the thing going right from the start.
ofc he must get used to the controls (or rather to GPB and high speeds in virtual env), i'm sure he would have even more problems with DS. i don't think that direct drive wheel will change much for DS and GPB.

Quote from: passerBy on May 18, 2017, 05:37:30 PM
Autopilots in DCS (excluding the 'hold' ones, like altitude hold, heading hold, etc.) do even less than the GPB's one does. And I already described why.
i don't think so.

Quote from: passerBy on May 18, 2017, 05:37:30 PM
Quote
Quote from: passerBy on May 14, 2017, 06:43:06 PM
What do you want then? Podiums? Prizes? That stuff is only good for boosting one's ego. Having fun is much more important. And challenging fun is the proper kind of fun. It also helps you to become a better person, whereas beating others works the other way around.
there is nothing about ego. even podiums are not important. i love competition for the beauty of the battle of masterhood, for emotions, for personal improvement during the process of learning how to fight, it's some kind of philosophy. you seem to look like a single player mode user, me - not, so i think we should stop the discussion coz now things are clear and there is no reason to continue.
If I was a competitive type, I'd be much more ashamed of using a helper, to be honest, especially calling it a battle of masterhood like that... But if you insist on using it nonetheless, there's nothing I can do about that. But it would be best if you'd abstain from calling DS "unrealistic".  And if it is, how exactly is having an AI layer between you and DS makes it more realistic?
it's okay coz it doesn't steal physics, bike behaviour from me, it helps with bars in wobbles or limits my lean angle but not a big deal for me coz i often stop my leaning even before the limit. DS feels as if i myself should lick my HD drive's disk to make my win7 running. and yes, it's a battle of masterhood even with def steering, if you ever tried to compete hard you'd see that.

passerBy

Quote from: loinen on May 18, 2017, 09:15:35 PM
Quote from: passerBy on May 18, 2017, 05:37:30 PM
You have missed my point. Castor angle is what makes the front wheels want to go in line with the skidding. Yes, you could just saw at the wheel frantically, but having the steering mostly doing this work for you sounds better, or doesn't it? Especially when you are left with "Degrees Of Rotation" far greater than 900.
i said the wheels are good enough. you probably said they are not good enough because... and then i said that i think they are good enough because of my RL exp. if you cant go in line with the skidding this is almost certainly not a problem of your wheel.
And all you say is "my RL exp this, my RL exp that". You don't even provide any proof you actually have that RL experience (or any proof of your competitive "glory days"), but even if you did, there is always the possibility of you simply being dishonest for the reason of not being able to cope with the fact that simulation is harder than reality. In your perception simulators are "games", and you can't accept being beaten by a game. Therefore, you go into denial, you come up with excuses... But you can't really provide any meaningful explanation to why you consider DS to be "unrealistic". "I feel it this way and I have RL exp", that's not a constructive feedback, nor that is any close to being a proof. I'm not even sure why you decided to post here. You could opt to ignore DS if you dislike it that much.

I can go in line with the skidding. In fact, I have videos regarding that too (unlike you). It's just that in RL the wheel doesn't lag behind. "Direct steering", if you will.

Quote
Quote from: passerBy on May 18, 2017, 05:37:30 PM
My point was that if you are ok with the level of abstraction either your X52 or the G25 forces you to deal with (not to mention an XBox controller), I see no reason why the same G25 would magically throw your suspension of disbelief off when it comes to the controller feel, once applied to GPB with DS.
because DS training is a waste of time at the end.
As I said, you are in denial. Either provide a logical explanation, or simply don't bother making statements. Bare statements don't bear any evidence to them.

Quote
Quote from: passerBy on May 18, 2017, 05:37:30 PM
Quote
Quote from: passerBy on May 14, 2017, 06:43:06 PM
Using a wheel with default steering in GPB makes absolutely no sense to me. The biggest asset of a force feedback wheel controller is, well, the force feedback itself. With the default steering FFB makes no sense whatsoever: you'll be getting something completely unrelated to your input.
at least after getting used to it i easily undestand what happens to my bike, especially to the rear end.
That sounds more in the vein of your own statement about people adopting weird techniques because they refuse to know any better, honestly...
no, it doesn't. you're trying to see what you would like to see here.
Because you said so, apparently? :) Learn to back your statements up with something... Well, with at least something.

Quote
Quote from: passerBy on May 18, 2017, 05:37:30 PM
Quoteseems that we are talking about different things all the time. all my words are coming from the thoughts about learning handling technique
Oh, and mine aren't? Steering is quite a big part of the handling... Some would even argue, the biggest part of it.
seems that you are mostly worrying about steering technique. from a bike's point of view :D
Just a while ago I used to think that the throttle is the most important part of controlling a motorcycle. After starting my DS endeavor, I can't really say I'm giving priority to either of them anymore. But the steering, especially coupled with FFB, is very important.

Quote
Quote from: passerBy on May 18, 2017, 05:37:30 PM
Quotevehicle behavior with control methods which are easy to get accustomed and do not fall in total contradiction with my perception
Why should they follow your perception in particular? Between a perception of someone on the net and the perception that comes as a result of mathematical modelling, I'd rather go with the latter. Especially when it's a facility provided by the sim author himself.
they should not follow my perception. i just said that i'm okay with them due to my RL exp. DS is shit as it is but you can go with whatever you want ofc.
Well, that's your personal opinion that matters only to you. Also, you should refrain from using such words... DS was coded by the very same person who gave you the sim. Be a little more respectful. Nobody forces you to use DS. You came here on your own.

Quote
Quote from: passerBy on May 18, 2017, 05:37:30 PM
Quotefor the record, if you havent watched this video by SimUK, maybe you'll find it interesting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_Vh_vsRYWs
But take a closer look at his brother. He's obviously having problems in the beginning with the default steering... Now I wonder... If DD's bars had some direct drive wheel level FFB and they tried running GPB with DS2... How that would change the outcome? Something tells me he would actually have much less problem getting the thing going right from the start.
ofc he must get used to the controls (or rather to GPB and high speeds in virtual env), i'm sure he would have even more problems with DS. i don't think that direct drive wheel will change much for DS and GPB.
I guess we could do this all day :) "-I think it is! -No, I think it is not!"

Quote
Quote from: passerBy on May 18, 2017, 05:37:30 PM
Autopilots in DCS (excluding the 'hold' ones, like altitude hold, heading hold, etc.) do even less than the GPB's one does. And I already described why.
i don't think so.
Based on what exactly?

Quote
Quote from: passerBy on May 18, 2017, 05:37:30 PM
Quote
Quote from: passerBy on May 14, 2017, 06:43:06 PM
What do you want then? Podiums? Prizes? That stuff is only good for boosting one's ego. Having fun is much more important. And challenging fun is the proper kind of fun. It also helps you to become a better person, whereas beating others works the other way around.
there is nothing about ego. even podiums are not important. i love competition for the beauty of the battle of masterhood, for emotions, for personal improvement during the process of learning how to fight, it's some kind of philosophy. you seem to look like a single player mode user, me - not, so i think we should stop the discussion coz now things are clear and there is no reason to continue.
If I was a competitive type, I'd be much more ashamed of using a helper, to be honest, especially calling it a battle of masterhood like that... But if you insist on using it nonetheless, there's nothing I can do about that. But it would be best if you'd abstain from calling DS "unrealistic".  And if it is, how exactly is having an AI layer between you and DS makes it more realistic?
it's okay coz it doesn't steal physics, bike behaviour from me, it helps with bars in wobbles or limits my lean angle but not a big deal for me coz i often stop my leaning even before the limit.
Or rather doesn't steal the developed comfort zone from you? Direct steering is not just about dropping the bike past the limit. It's about proper application of torque onto the bars and reading the resulting torque back via FFB. You feel the road. You feel what the front (and the rear!) is doing. This all is kinda big deal after all.

QuoteDS feels as if i myself should lick my HD drive's disk to make my win7 running.
Some obscure Russian humor? I don't know what either your HDD or your Win7 have to do with DS.

Quoteand yes, it's a battle of masterhood even with def steering, if you ever tried to compete hard you'd see that.
Well, at the moment your competing hard is just words anyway. I've never heard of you before. Anybody can come up with "I'm a real RL cyclist, DS is crap". Also, on a higher level there's a possibility of different companies hiring actual race drivers/riders to say their particular game is "just like real life". The only thing that matters is some solid proof, not someone's words. Especially, not just words of a random someone on the Internet.

loinen

May 20, 2017, 10:06:41 AM #212 Last Edit: May 20, 2017, 10:33:09 AM by loinen
Quote from: passerBy on May 19, 2017, 12:19:37 PM
And all you say is "my RL exp this, my RL exp that".
actually i said a lot of different words about different things. strange to read that for you all comes to this only.

Quote from: passerBy on May 19, 2017, 12:19:37 PM
You don't even provide any proof you actually have that RL experience (or any proof of your competitive "glory days")
glory days? seems that something have gone wrong about me in your head. i said i like competition in sims, i tried bikes irl, i tried car racing irl and so on.. i do compete in sims, not an all time champion but not bad (for my not very reqular training days), won some races against some people (not noobs like you), did some quite fast laps, took some podiums.
here is result table of online fun championship, my name in the table is Br Hr. events took place on rFactor, different class every track - LMP1, LMP2, touring, GT3, classic GT1, i'm not a pro but  4-5 pros participated in every race and other guys were not shit at all as well.
https://pp.userapi.com/c639729/v639729047/a4b8/QhqCBjgJoNA.jpg
short vid done by one of our guys - comparing two best laps in qualify. Alexey Kutsak is kind of a pro, very experienced and very fast.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1wbv1TNhkI

here is the table of fastest laps of Victoria on 990. i'm not the fastest, 14th in the table but moto sims were not my 1st priority in racing, however 4-5 months back i decided to pay constant attention to motos.
http://stats.gp-bikes.com/records.php?trackid=59&bikeid=4

same table for mx bikes
forest track (1st place here, quite surprised)
http://stats.mx-bikes.com/records.php?trackid=4&bikeid=1
winchester track (table of 4 ppl but those two guys are ones of the fastest i've seen on servers in mxb)
http://stats.mx-bikes.com/records.php?trackid=24&bikeid=2

more vids if you need. old short records of me training gpb and mxb
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdTzgF8q55A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCjwi5BOd88

Quote from: passerBy on May 19, 2017, 12:19:37 PM
but even if you did, there is always the possibility of you simply being dishonest for the reason of not being able to cope with the fact that simulation is harder than reality. In your perception simulators are "games", and you can't accept being beaten by a game. Therefore, you go into denial, you come up with excuses...

reminds me of your words about ego and all that stuff you wrote about why people want to compete. i would call this 'wise monkey pshychoanalisys' - sounds smart but stupid in its core and totally wrong.
simulators are not games, i know, but i like to play simulators with people.

Quote from: passerBy on May 19, 2017, 12:19:37 PM
But you can't really provide any meaningful explanation to why you consider DS to be "unrealistic". "I feel it this way and I have RL exp", that's not a constructive feedback, nor that is any close to being a proof. I'm not even sure why you decided to post here. You could opt to ignore DS if you dislike it that much.
representing all my words with such kind of essenses makes me think that you missed everything just because you don't need anything except confirming that DS is the best way to control bike. i said a lot about why i think DS is unrealistic. to speak shortly: i never did such a hard work when ride a bike IRL and bike never tried to fall so hard as it does with DS.

Quote from: passerBy on May 19, 2017, 12:19:37 PM
It's just that in RL the wheel doesn't lag behind. "Direct steering", if you will.

lag? so, for you it lags with def steering. lol.

Quote from: passerBy on May 19, 2017, 12:19:37 PM
As I said, you are in denial. Either provide a logical explanation, or simply don't bother making statements. Bare statements don't bear any evidence to them.
so, at the end of discussion you decided to call for the most true proofs of every word i said. we talked so much, everything was looking logical and all, but now you woke up with the feeling that someone tried to fool you.

Quote from: passerBy on May 19, 2017, 12:19:37 PM
Because you said so, apparently? :) Learn to back your statements up with something... Well, with at least something.
don't learn me, dude. seems that yourself needs learning as you miss so much in what people say.

Quote from: passerBy on May 19, 2017, 12:19:37 PM
Just a while ago I used to think that the throttle is the most important part of controlling a motorcycle. After starting my DS endeavor, I can't really say I'm giving priority to either of them anymore. But the steering, especially coupled with FFB, is very important.
yeah, looks like you are at the very beginning of the path :D

Quote from: passerBy on May 19, 2017, 12:19:37 PM
I guess we could do this all day :) "-I think it is! -No, I think it is not!"
no. using your own words, you are in such a hard denial of default steering that it seems to you that the guy in the vid is struggling with def steering.

Quote from: passerBy on May 19, 2017, 12:19:37 PM
Or rather doesn't steal the developed comfort zone from you?
another piece of dumb psychology?

Quote from: passerBy on May 19, 2017, 12:19:37 PM
Direct steering is not just about dropping the bike past the limit. It's about proper application of torque onto the bars and reading the resulting torque back via FFB. You feel the road. You feel what the front (and the rear!) is doing. This all is kinda big deal after all.
yes, i feel the road and all even with def steering. i also feel that it's more natural than DS. at least with G25 and even gamepad (yes, i tried both devices).

Quote from: passerBy on May 19, 2017, 12:19:37 PM
QuoteDS feels as if i myself should lick my HD drive's disk to make my win7 running.
Some obscure Russian humor? I don't know what either your HDD or your Win7 have to do with DS.
why Russian exactly? i'm IT engineer, that hardware-software figural expression was kind of allusion about DS being like some low level control method, it's like i'm not the user of handlebars, i'm the handlebars.

Quoteand yes, it's a battle of masterhood even with def steering, if you ever tried to compete hard you'd see that.
Well, at the moment your competing hard is just words anyway. I've never heard of you before.
so what now?