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A new two-stroke 500cc Ronax

Started by Ian, June 10, 2014, 07:41:45 PM

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RiccoChicco

When you see how much the bike costs and you realize that you'll never ride it:





Alby46

nobody of us, but it's still a great bike. electronic direct injection? sounds good, looks like direct injection is on the way... maybe a rise of 2 stroke engines
Still riding a 50cc, but enjoying it :)

C21

June 13, 2014, 06:47:11 AM #3 Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 07:58:05 AM by C21
There will never be a rise of fuel injected 2 stroke engines again!
All the big manufacturers (Honda especially) undertake an agreement not to invest in 2 strokes anmyore.

If i should pay 100000€ for this bike i would like to have many more informations!
The website did not have any usefull information imho.....besides nice pics of the bike.
I don´t think that 46 bikes will be produced and sold.

AND: This bike is not street legal in many european countries although the homepage says different!

There is no new or inovative technique/engineering in this bike.
It looks like a NSR500 and ihmo it looks a bit outdated today.
It´s a bike for collectors.

I don´t wan´t to blame about it but just list the facts!
# Member of the CAWS Racing Team #


HornetMaX

It's a bike for deep-pocketed 2-strike lovers that likes it just to have something rare.

For the same (ridiculous) amount of money (actually even less, depending on the version), I'd definitely buy this instead: https://www.mission-motorcycles.com/r
At least there's some serious innovation inside (and I do like the aesthetics more, but that's personal).

And yes, their (ronax) website is a bit of a joke.

MaX.

Vini

June 13, 2014, 09:51:54 AM #5 Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 09:59:20 AM by vin97
It certainly looks better than all the new ugly superbikes with sharp edges everywhere like the RSV4.

It just uses regular electronic fuel injection, that's why it's not road legal (damn emission legislations!). It's still very good that somebody finally made a properly working injected two stroke and this is probably one of the reasons the bike is so expensive.

Yes, if it weren't for Honda, direct fuel ijnected 2 strokes would already be on the road and MotoGP would still be called 500cc world championship....

I agree that 100k is too much and 160 hp is not enough in my opinion (tuned Gamma engines can almost reach that power) but you have to understand that it was built to be reliable and be an "easy-package". That is why maxiumum power is achieved at only 11500 rpm and that is also why it has a completely new frame and swingarm that even beat Moto2 chassis.
It has a lot more potential but even now it will beat any home-made GP500 replica bike.

They alread have orders for 24 bikes, I think there are enough collectors or ex-racers who would buy one of these (so would I if I had enough money :D).

Since the big manufacturers have stopped developing two strokes the only chance for a small company to bring them back would be, to build a new V4 500-600cc engine with modern technology (DFI and some more exotic things like 24/7 reed valve intake, FOS cylinder, variable exhaust pipe and water injection) that complies with emission legislations and has at least 180 hp. You could then bring them your 600cc supersport bike and have the engine replaced for a reasonable price (max 10,000 €).
That is the only way people would think about getting a big two stroke instead of buying a superbike.

HornetMaX

Quote from: vin97 on June 13, 2014, 09:51:54 AM
Yes, if it weren't for Honda, direct fuel ijnected 2 strokes would already be on the road and MotoGP would still be called 500cc world championship....
Hmmm, sounds a bit like the big conspiracy theory ... I don't see any manufacturer having a preference for 2 or 4 strikes (if anything, at one time they may have been more knowledgeable in 2 strokes). They just want to make money selling bikes. 2, 3 or 4 strokes they probably don't care a lot.

Quote from: vin97 on June 13, 2014, 09:51:54 AM
Since the big manufacturers have stopped developing two strokes the only chance for a small company to bring them back would be, to build a new V4 500-600cc engine with modern technology (DFI and some more exotic things like 24/7 reed valve intake, FOS cylinder, variable exhaust pipe and water injection) that complies with emission legislations and has at least 180 hp. You could then bring them your 600cc supersport bike and have the engine replaced for a reasonable price (max 10,000 €).
That is the only way people would think about getting a big two stroke instead of buying a superbike.

But to what purpose ? What would be the advantage over a modern 4 strokes ?
Every time I hear two strokes fans they just say "It's a 2 strokes. It's fantastic !". No further explanation of why it is so.

MaX.

Vini

If you talk to guys who were involved in GP racing, they will all tell you that Honda were the ones who tried as hard as possible to get rid of the two strokes (even later in the 250/125cc class).
There is a reason they came up with the oval piston NR bikes....
Well, at least they now have their own class...
You should read this interview, it's in german though so you might want to use google translator:
http://www.motorradonline.de/vergleichstest/tracktest-ktm-viertakt-racer-als-125er-nachfolger-interview-mit-ktm-grand-prix-konstrukteur-harald-bartol/264161?seite=5


A well designed 500 or 600cc V4 2T engine can easily reach the power of a superbike while being a lot lighter and smaller (and having a lower COG).
There are a lot of guys who put an RD or RG 500 engine in a RGV 250 or RS 250 (these bikes are not bigger than a YZF-R125) and it fits nicely and only weighs 130 kg dry.
It will basically handle like a 125 but at 180-200 hp.

HornetMaX

Quote from: vin97 on June 13, 2014, 11:59:25 AM
If you talk to guys who were involved in GP racing, they will all tell you that Honda were the ones who tried as hard as possible to get rid of the two strokes (even later in the 250/125cc class).
Not even necessary to do that, Honda retired for a while, not happy about the 2-strokes only policy. So it's common knowledge.

Quote from: vin97 on June 13, 2014, 11:59:25 AM
There is a reason they came up with the oval piston NR bikes....
Yes, the reason is that if you have 4 cyl max, then you have to be very creative to b eon par in terms of power with a 4 strokes 4-cyl 500cc vs a 2 strokes 4 cyl 500cc.
By the way, they failed: oval pistons and 8 valves are both a curiosity more than anything else.

Quote from: vin97 on June 13, 2014, 11:59:25 AM
You should read this interview, it's in german though so you might want to use google translator:
http://www.motorradonline.de/vergleichstest/tracktest-ktm-viertakt-racer-als-125er-nachfolger-interview-mit-ktm-grand-prix-konstrukteur-harald-bartol/264161?seite=5
Hard to read once translated by google, but the guy is arguing essentially the cost justification of moving the lower classes to 4 strokes.

Quote from: vin97 on June 13, 2014, 11:59:25 AM
A well designed 500 or 600cc V4 2T engine can easily reach the power of a superbike while being a lot lighter and smaller (and having a lower COG).
That's true. Now talk to me about the disadvantages of 2 strokes.

MaX.

Ian

I thought exhaust emission was the reason they stopped the 2-strokes?

Vini

Yes, he says that the 125 bikes were better, cheaper, simpler and faster and that Honda tried to stop every new development like DFI to switch to four strokes.


Oh yes, the emissions.....
But Diesel, planes, fossil-fuel power stations, FCKW production in China and India, ... is ok.
BTW with direct injection and oil injection the emissions are on 4T level, just look at snowmobiles.


I don't want to start the 2T vs 4T discussion again.
Currently two stroke engines are designed for race bikes and not really suitable for use in a daily commuter bike that has to be reliable and have low fuel consumption.
But that's only logical: The development of two strokes stopped some 30 years ago. The only thing that improved was power which also makes sense because you don't care about fuel consumption or emissions when building a race bike.
But as I said above, to see what's already possible look at two-stroke outboard or snowmobile engines.

HornetMaX

For sure 2 strokes can do better than the 500cc race engines in terms of emissions and duration, but then the engine won't be as simple (maybe not even as lightweight) nor as cheap.

Let's assume you are right: Honda is the big evil and they prevent us from getting wonderful 2 strokes engines that are so much better than 4 strokes.

Now tell me: what prevents Yamaha, Suzuki or even KTM (as in the interview you were referring to) to sell us road bikes using 2 strokes engines ?
They should be cheaper, more powerful, lighter. They should blow Honda silly 4 strokes out of the water. Honda will run out of business in no time.

Where's the catch ?

MaX.

Vini

Because they are already selling a lot of bikes.
Why should they take the risk of spending a lot of money on developing new technology if the current one is selling well enough?
That's just business.


They won't be as simple of course since the aim is to have modern, complex electronics with a lot of functions but they will still be very very light (it's not like there will be a camshaft added and you can rid of the carbs for example).

Alby46

athena is developing somethig with ktm, a 2 stroke mx i think, but it's all secret
Still riding a 50cc, but enjoying it :)

HornetMaX

Quote from: vin97 on June 14, 2014, 10:52:01 PM
Because they are already selling a lot of bikes.
Are you sure ? The last years have been an absolute catastrophe in terms of bike sales.
If a cheaper and better engine was on the table, they would literally kill to have it.

Quote from: vin97 on June 14, 2014, 10:52:01 PM
Why should they take the risk of spending a lot of money on developing new technology if the current one is selling well enough?
That's just business.
If it was worth, they would take the risk, trust me. For sure some smaller player (ktm ? bmw ? ducati ? you name it) would be more than tempted to outsmart the japs with a better, lighter and cheaper 2 stroke engine. But at the moment it seems just not possible.

The KTM guy in the interview you referenced is so sure, why doesn't KTM give us a 600cc two strokes instead of a (absolutely fantastic) 2-cyl 2 strokes 1290cc engine ?

Modern 2 strokes do exist, are good and do have applications, but for motorbikes they do not seem to bring that much more than a good 4 strokes.

Quote from: vin97 on June 14, 2014, 10:52:01 PM
They won't be as simple of course since the aim is to have modern, complex electronics with a lot of functions but they will still be very very light (it's not like there will be a camshaft added and you can rid of the carbs for example).

Carbs ?  :o

MaX.