(WIP)Test - Tyre Grip Tuning for the 500cc Varase....

[BOBR6 84]

Just asking, but do you guys powerslide with an unloaded rear or an overloaded one? Because when I push hard with the 500cc on a fully loaded rear I tend to have some very nice slides.
If I accelerate with an unloaded rear too hard I am immeditely down, so I actually think the standard physics are pretty decent from what I have seen and heard of the 500cc.

I love you 

[Desteban]

hehe 

[BOBR6 84]

Another thread from janaucarre ''rpm changing from the lean angle of the bike''

I wonder if this will have an efect too..? 

[girlracerTracey]

Just asking, but do you guys powerslide with an unloaded rear or an overloaded one? Because when I push hard with the 500cc on a fully loaded rear I tend to have some very nice slides.
If I accelerate with an unloaded rear too hard I am immeditely down, so I actually think the standard physics are pretty decent from what I have seen and heard of the 500cc.

Hmmm..that makes interesting reading. I do often feel that I am not able to load-up the rear end enough. I'm trying but I can't quite get reliably close enough to that point where I begin to break traction. I don't seem to be cornering quickly enough to put enough force from the engine onto the back wheel. Not in a progressive enough manner. I think you have a point. I think this ties in to what Bob is talking about also..

I suspect the "block" here, if indeed there is a block (..and I fully understand that some people do not even perceive that there is an issue with 500s) is a combination of different aspects of physics and how they interrelate with each other. Including tyre grip, tyre "dynamics", cornering speed and suspension settings.

But look, I am not really qualified to comment as I am a "newbie". So I had better shut-up now! 

I am going to carry on listening..

grT

[girlracerTracey]

Just asking, but do you guys powerslide with an unloaded rear or an overloaded one? Because when I push hard with the 500cc on a fully loaded rear I tend to have some very nice slides.
If I accelerate with an unloaded rear too hard I am immeditely down, so I actually think the standard physics are pretty decent from what I have seen and heard of the 500cc.

I love you 

I think I love you too..

Do you have video recording equipment? If you do and you really don't mind doing so could you record a few slides..from the rear chase view if possible?

I would love to see this properly in action. Hope you don't mind me asking..

grT

P.S. I have to say though I did like Hawk's looser rear end that I tried last night..if you'll pardon the expression..

[Hawk]

Hi Guys.... Thanks for all your feedback and comments.....

This is interesting reading all the differing points of view.

In my personal opinion, the 500 2 stroke bikes in GPB should be able to perform a controlled power slide for a well practiced GPB rider, but the reality is that despite the very high class riders of the likes of Desteban, Jamoz, iVolution, Ali, Warlock, Arvoss, Hawk(cough, splutter!! Hehe), too many to mention all of you.( ), I bet no one can show me a replay of controlled power sliding performed at will on a 500cc GPB Bike without either loading up the rear suspension to a ridiculous amount that wouldn't be used in an actual race, or putting on slippery boots. So something is not quite right somewhere... Hopefully when Piboso has finished the physics model to his final specifications we will see this real capability from the 500 GP bikes, but until that time, I see no reason we shouldn't try and find a work around to try and mimic this kind of performance, but at the same time try and keep it real by not turning GPB into an arcade bike drifting game. Power sliding in a controlled manner should be something, as in real life, that only the very talented and/or well practiced can do well. I hope that will be the same for GPB.

One thing that has occurred to me about getting the bike to power slide - As I understand it, the virtual rider will intervene to try and stop any lack of grip, particularly with the lean angles. If this is true then how can a true power slide ever be properly performed while the virtual rider is allowed to interfere in such a way? Maybe we'll all need to convert to riding totally manual like Klax to be able to perform a controlled power slide?

For those who think the old classic 500 bikes were not capable of performing power slides at will, I can vividly remember when Freddie Spencer joined the Honda team and I watched him racing around Donington Park power sliding around Coppice and exiting onto Starkey's Straight, absolutely beautiful to watch the throttle control that guy had. You could literally see him controlling that slide with his weight shift and throttle hand, so no one can ever say to me that the old 500cc GP bikes just didn't have the ability and power to perform a continually controlled rear wheel power slide, and that was all without any electronic aids or traction control that these MOTOGP guys have today. Those guys were the real hero's as far as I'm concerned. 

But anyway... lets continue the testing and see what we can acheive.

Thank you for all your comments.... keep them coming guys! 

Hawk.

[BOBR6 84]

Another thread from janaucarre ''rpm changing from the lean angle of the bike''

I wonder if this will have an efect too..? 

This could have a positive effect!
Will help keep the revs up when cornering!
When you tip into a fast corner on the throttle the revs should increase helping initiate rear wheel steering!
Sounds logical to me anyway lol.

This could potentially transform gpbikes!

At the moment the revs stay the same even when cranked over.. So we are trying to force a slide by adding more throttle..

[C21]

Just an example of the lean angles of the 1991 bikes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HXqZh5oTK0

Don´t think that GPB needs more lean angle on the tyres (someone spoke about it).....and all in all they did not slide much....
At 1:09 you see a small slide of Doohan.

The younger the bikes (1996 or 2000) the more slides were produced due to the horsepower increase and better throttle control.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tqxykKDck0  (Don´t think that this is possible with the 500cc in GPB?)

Best example: (1999 race).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fi3DfBMV1e4
Only Mccoy slides much because it´s his way to tame the beast and to wring the heart out of the YZR500 against the NSR and RGV.

Maybe we should not exaggerate the possibility to slide that much....looking into older race videos....only some riders slide and they are doing it not that much....

@Hawk
Sorry could not get you more infos on the tyres, did not test that much with it due to lack of time and other projects.

[girlracerTracey]

I bet no one can show me a replay of controlled power sliding performed at will on a 500cc GPB Bike without either loading up the rear suspension to a ridiculous amount that wouldn't be used in an actual race, or putting on slippery boots. So something is not quite right somewhere... Hopefully when Piboso has finished the physics model to his final specifications we will see this real capability from the 500 GP bikes, but until that time, I see no reason we shouldn't try and find a work around to try and mimic this kind of performance, but at the same time try and keep it real by not turning GPB into an arcade bike drifting game. Power sliding in a controlled manner should be something, as in real life, that only the very talented and/or well practiced can do well. I hope that will be the same for GPB.

I have to say I personally agree with that. Whether you actually choose to use it or not the ability to powerslide should at least be available in gpbikes on the 500s. Rather like the ability to do power-wheelies. As in real life some players will choose not to use rear wheel steering (i.e. they will avoid powersliding) and will keep their wheels in line and by doing so achieve, for them, faster lap-times. Other players who prefer to square off bends and rear wheel steer a bit would at least have the ability to access a degree of powersliding. Maybe that would assist them a bit in shaving their lap-times? But I agree rear wheel steering, as it was/is in real life, should be a highly challenging skill to develop and use in gpbikes on the 500s. It should not be an easy skill to master and it should catch you out big time if you get it wrong and highside you..

In this way I think it would arguably mimic real life a little more accurately if somehow a small revision to the physics of the 500cc bikes in gpbikes was made. But I do agree that this has to be done very carefully so as not to ruin what we have already.

My own take on this is that on the 500s in gpbikes to initiate a rear wheel slide you have to load up the rear end of the bike to an unrealistic degree. You have to load it up too much in my opinion. Under such a considerable loading it will I think slide but this to me is not like real life. Too much loading is required in gpbikes in my opinion. Also I have noticed that if you hit a bump or a track imperfection in gpbikes whilst exiting a bend with the power hard on and the rear end loaded this will set the rear end off into a slide. Which is fine but with that degree of loading it should arguably be sliding a bit already..

Just my thoughts. I guess at the end of the day this is just an experiment but it is I think worth investigating.

grT 

[Vini]

Ok, a different question: Can anybody show me a long, consistent powerslide with a 4T in GPB?
I think we are not on the same definition of "consistent powerslide".


The 500 lean angle in GPB is quite accurate, I agree with you after looking at it again but the corner speed is way too low which means that the bike is too heavy.


But, to repeat myself, rear wheel steering is not the top priority at the moment in my opinion. Maybe we are all just not as good at GPB as we think we are. I mean, who of the ones who ride in real-life can do powerslides without traction control?

[HornetMaX]

Just an example of the lean angles of the 1991 bikes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HXqZh5oTK0

Don´t think that GPB needs more lean angle on the tyres (someone spoke about it).....and all in all they did not slide much....
At 1:09 you see a small slide of Doohan.

The younger the bikes (1996 or 2000) the more slides were produced due to the horsepower increase and better throttle control.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tqxykKDck0  (Don´t think that this is possible with the 500cc in GPB?)

Best example: (1999 race).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fi3DfBMV1e4
Only Mccoy slides much because it´s his way to tame the beast and to wring the heart out of the YZR500 against the NSR and RGV.

Maybe we should not exaggerate the possibility to slide that much....looking into older race videos....only some riders slide and they are doing it not that much....

Good post C21 ! I subscribe to at least 100% of the above.

I'd condense it in: No, the 500cc bikes did not powerslide easily and No the 500cc bikes did not lean much more than what we have in GPB (no need to add a No we don't need to make the 500cc lighter as this has already been proved wrong).

@Hawk: what you're trying to do is interesting anyway. I just don't think it goes in the "more realistic" (or closer to reality) direction the supporters of the thing seem to be claiming.

MaX.

P.S.
Don't get a wrong impression: I love the 500cc era, races were abfab. Doohan is probably the #1 rider I'd mention in terms of personal preference of all the riders I've witnessed (#2 at worst, still have to decide if I liked Casey more than him).

This could have a positive effect!
Will help keep the revs up when cornering!
When you tip into a fast corner on the throttle the revs should increase helping initiate rear wheel steering!
Sounds logical to me anyway lol.

Not really: the rpm increase comes from the bike inertia making the smaller radius wheel spin faster, if the bike speed is kept constant.
But the engine braking torque will work against the RPM increase, slowing the bike down.
Once on the angle, it is like having a shorter gear. If I've done the calculation correctly, on the 990 tire @ 60 degrees lean, your tire radius is 20% smaller than at 0 degrees. That seems a lot to me, but note that GPB assumes a circular profile for the tire, hence the numbers can be different in real life.

The 500 lean angle in GPB is quite accurate, I agree with you after looking at it again but the corner speed is way too low which means that the bike is too heavy.

Even assuming the corner speed is too low, that could come from other factors. The bike weight is right, it has been checked (http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=1164.msg13831#msg13831).

MaX.

[Vini]

Then it's maybe the weight distribution.
Fact is: They are way too slow in corners.
The 500 on Jerez is a nightmare.
They should at least be as fast as the superbikes through corners.

[HornetMaX]

Fact is: They are way too slow in corners.
The 500 on Jerez is a nightmare.
They should at least be as fast as the superbikes through corners.

Comparing lap times is not as easy as it seems (track changes, weather conditions etc), but :

1996 500cc pole (Doohan): 1:43.866 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Spanish_motorcycle_Grand_Prix)

2013 WSS pole: (Lowes) : 1:43.118 (http://www.crash.net/wss/results/197222/1/jerez-qualifying-times-2.html)

2013 SBK pole (Laverty): 1:40.620 (http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/laverty-wins-world-superbike-superpole-at-jerez/)

We are talking about almost 20 years back man ... technology and knowledge move forward: for Jerez, plenty of (motoGP) info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_motorcycle_Grand_Prix

MaX.

[girlracerTracey]

I think you make a very valid point Max regarding lap times. Just to bring it slightly more up to date however in 2001 (the last grand prix year with a full grid of 2-strokes) Valentino Rossi's pole position for the 500cc race on the NSR500 Honda was 1:42.739

So I think with improvements in tyre technology and overall motorcycle technology that were available in 2001 the gap to the current World Superbike lap times is narrowed down by just a bit.

I guess with the "varese" physics we are talking about mototorcycle performance figures that were based on the Cagiva grand prix bike from 1992/3 however?   

grT

[Vini]

This is becoming the same discussion all over again.
The 500 is shit around corners and it's terrible on small tracks. I want a bike that is fun to ride even if that means that it is a second faster than the real record.

But since you want to stick to the numbers and keep the outdated tyre and frame technology, how about somebody makes a Suter 500 which has up-to-date Moto2 chassis, brakes, suspension, tyres and a 200hp V4 (at 129 kg fully fueled) so that we can have WSS corner speeds (even faster actually) without interferring with the numbers.
To me this is unnecessary, just copy the NSR with higher corner speed and call it Suter 500.