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Is Modern MotoGP better than the 500cc GP Championships of the 70's/80's ?

Started by Hawk_UK, November 09, 2013, 03:41:28 PM

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grimm

Having been a young gun at the end of "Steady Eddie" Lawson's career as a rider, watching the greatest of the greats retire, and lusting after bikes such as the RGV500, NSR500, and Cagiva's, I am proud to state that era is gone, the new MotoGP is a different breed and a different era, not much to compare. My personal opinion of current motorcycle racing is about equal to my opinion of F1 racing. 500's and the F1 Turbo era are the cream of the crop for me, the best of the best, the fastest of the fast. Back when men were men and the boys stayed home and played with the idea of racing a motorcycle.


The greatest riders of all time lived in the 500GP era, NOT to say that current riders are not as talented, they probably are more talented, but the sheer courage it took to ride a 500GP machine is so far removed from current motorcycle racing. I guarantee you put Rossi on Lawsons old Cagiva and he would come back totally disgusted with the way it behaves.


This is the 3rd of three parts, skip to 5:15 for the take on a 500 world champ telling a current MotoGP rider what it's about.  ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Vw_xRy-u-g


It was a common occurrence for a newcomer to 500's to take some practice laps, mark a horrible time, and nearly hang up their leathers because they felt that the bike was far beyond anything they could control or handle. Lawson himself as well as Roberts both often lament on the fact they struggled at great lengths to adapt to the incredible behavior of the 500's.




Kenny's take on 500 versus current MotoGP was that the 500's had a limit you could find with enough skill, current MotoGP has a limit you ride and if you are off the pace it is still manageable, you just are not as fast as the next man. If you can ride the edge of a current GP machine you are world class, if you could win on a 500 you had a true gift as a rider. Simple statements from a man who has a few lifetimes worth of experience.


Current MotoGP, to me, just like current F1, looks like spec racing. Battles are won by milliseconds and setup rather than true grit and endurance as a rider hammering out the limit corner after corner. Honestly the current breed of GP machines is getting BACK to the 500 era's attitude and demeanor with the added flavor of technological development. Racing has become safer, but with that safety comes what feels and looks so watered down I only care to see the highlight reels at the end of a race rather than the actual lap after lap grinding they do. What happened to the massive wobbles? The wheelies? The tire smoking power slides? Without that life and death lightswitch at the limit there is no real reason to watch racing for me, better off watching Irish Road Racing to get my kicks.  ::)

HornetMaX

Quote from: grimm on March 05, 2014, 11:05:06 PM
What happened to the massive wobbles? The wheelies? The tire smoking power slides?
They all disappeared, because they make you slower.

But as already said, I'm OK to say that racing at the time required more courage.

Notice however that when Ben says he'd like to ride a 500 ("all the power and no electronics")  Eddie says "you wouldn't like to ride a 500" adding "because tires were crap, suspensions were crap".

This should tell you two things:

  • Most blame everything on electronics, but there are plenty of other reasons, just as important.
  • Today's bikes are better bikes, even according to Eddie :)

MaX.

Hawk

@grimm: Nice video to explain what we're debating here from a former great 500cc champ, the night and day comparisons of riding MotoGP today than in 500cc GP of yesteryears, and I absolutely agree with everything you said above...... Beautifully said mate ;) ;D

@Max: Yes, I agree in that your saying that todays bikes are far better, I wholeheartedly agree, but what makes them better is what is making them dull to watch compared to the GP 500 era; the sheer excitement of watching todays MotoGP's is not the same. But the knowledge that the 500cc GP bikes took an incredible amount of skill to ride and win GP's compared to todays MotoGP bikes means that the inevitable comparisons were bound to raise their heads in the very same sense as it has in modern F1 compared to years ago.

Don't get me wrong guys.... I'm certainly not saying that I don't like modern MotoGP, in fact I love it! All I'm saying is that it is just missing that special something in riders, personalities and bikes that the great years of 500cc GP racing certainly had in bucket loads. Maybe it's become far too professional? I don't know, but something is certainly missing.

HornetMaX

Quote from: Hawk_UK on March 06, 2014, 12:31:12 AM
@Max: Yes, I agree in that your saying that todays bikes are far better, I wholeheartedly agree, but what makes them better is what is making them dull to watch compared to the GP 500 era; the sheer excitement of watching todays MotoGP's is not the same. But the knowledge that the 500cc GP bikes took an incredible amount of skill to ride and win GP's compared to todays MotoGP bikes means that the inevitable comparisons were bound to raise their heads in the very same sense as it has in modern F1 compared to years ago.
Last season wasn't exactly dull in my opinion.
The problem of F1 is different: they just can't overtake any longer. No overtake, no fun. They know it and they try to do something about it (KERS, DRS). Not sure they are succeeding though.

Quote from: Hawk_UK on March 06, 2014, 12:31:12 AM
Maybe it's become far too professional? I don't know, but something is certainly missing.
That's surely part of it. Usually the ones that say "500cc were a better show than MotoGP" have what I call a romantic vision of the sport: they like the though man, jumping on his unrideable bike (eventually after smoking some illegal substance just before the start, there are videos to prove that, no kidding), taking the triple of the risks of the second best, risking his life every weekend and ending his career with more broken bones than untouched ones. That's the 'cowboy' approach.

Also, they tend to admire more the human "performance" than the technical performance (the rider more than the bike): this is a totally respectable point of view, but if you really want this you have to have same bike for everybody and do a pure riders championship (instead of the usual "riders + constructors").

The problem with all that is that it is not economically sustainable. And if it's not sustainable, it's gonna die. Which, bottom line, is bad.

Overall I'm not in favor of unlimited electronic assist (or whichever technological development). For example, I'm pretty much against launch control and any form of "automatic" control that uses the GPS position of the bike (i.e. the bike knows the track and change engine/suspension parameters depending on where it is on the track). I barely tolerate anti-wheeling, but only because it's something useful on street bikes (but as it is not extra-hard to make one, I'd prefer if there was none on motogp bikes). Traction control is however very necessary with todays powers and very important for street bikes.

But things have to move forward, otherwise it lacks interest.

MaX.

KLJ#14

I used to absolutely love watching the 500cc races because you could see how difficult they where to ride. Constantly trying to throw the riders into orbit.
Then they started using the 4 stroke bikes. And it was spectacular to watch them slider the rear around like mad men in the first few seasons before they really started using electronic aids.
After that I started to loose interest the racing became kinda dull to watch.
Then they introduced moto2 and woohoo! Some of the old wildness and craziness was back from what I used to love to see.
The last few seasons of moto2 has been such good fun to watch. I look forward to seeing the young guys in moto2 race a lot more than I do the motogp class.

Hawk

@Max: There is probably some romantic vision of the past, as there always is when you look back, but in this case I would have to say it is very small a romantic vision. Progress for progress sake is not always a good thing for a sport(Golf is a good example of the governing body banning so many so called advances in club technology to save the essence of what golf is all about, and the sport has continued to thrive because of their protection.), and in my opinion the very real progress in bike technology in MotoGP has ruined the very essence of what used to be called the blue ribbon event of road racing which was the "World Motorcycle 500cc GP championships"; it was the very pinnacle of motorcycle road racing until they decided to change to the four stroke machines. I mean, the MotoGP championships is no more interesting these days than watching the Super Bike Champs, or even club racing(well that's probably going too far there. LOL)
But basically what I'm saying is that MotoGP  has lost it's "Mojo" from what it used to be.
Huff! They even stopped push starts for christ sakes.... I mean what was that all about? Some twisted sense of safety creeping into racing? Lets wrap them all up in cotton wool, eh?! But then again, can you imagine poor little Danny Pedrosa trying to push start that Honda of his? Hehehe! ;D

HornetMaX

@Hawk: notice that romantic did not have any negative sense in my intentions, it was just a way to describe the point of view.

The golf comparison is interesting, but there's one major difference: golf is a golfers only championship, not a golf + club maker (or balls maker, or gloves maker) championship. You said that they took measures to protect it, but they did not take the one and single measure that would have ensured perfect competition: same clubs for all the players. Why they didn't is obvious.
And, to be honest, research and innovation in golf clubs is not really useful (mind, it could be technically interesting). Same for the UK-loved curling :)

MotoGP is supposed to be the technological top (just as F1 for cars): you can't limit technology too much (like in Nascar) otherwise other series will fill the gap.
If MotoGP becomes too restricted, SBK will become less and constructors will go to SBK for technology showdown.

The debate is endless, but we all know what will happen: progress will come and old dogs like you and me will discuss if it was or not better before :) :)
Anyway, what else do we have to do ? It rains 110% of the time in this bloody country of yours (and mine, at least for a few extra months) !!

MaX.

grimm

Quote from: HornetMaX on March 05, 2014, 11:18:07 PM
Quote from: grimm on March 05, 2014, 11:05:06 PM
What happened to the massive wobbles? The wheelies? The tire smoking power slides?
They all disappeared, because they make you slower.

*snipped out a bit of the reply there*

MaX.



Indeed they can make you slower, but the point I was making is that the current limit doesn't look like the limit until there is a shower of sparks, same thing Kenny was stating in the original video. I guarantee the front and rear end slides of a current MotoGP machine feel far more under control, but it is the same slides that the old 500's had as well, physically bikes haven't changed much at all since the days of the 500's, sure you can account for carbon fiber and titanium being massive effects on how rideable the machines are, but in a sense of pure performance they run at a parallel.

My point of my reply to begin with, and ended with it as well, stated that there really isn't much to compare aside from how interesting it is to watch.



My unprofessional, unsolicited, and unprovoked opinion shining through in the next bit of this, so take it with a grain of salt. No need to poke this part full of holes although some will strongly disagree I'm sure. lol

I'm a die hard vintage bike guy, KZ1000's, CB T's and F's, GS's, the lot of 'em I've owned and flogged pretty hard. My interest in Honda CBR900RR's is solely based on the 893cc models with 16" front wheel dating to the era of the amazing (and last iteration before the 4 stroke revolution) NSR500, and my love for everything Suzuki air/oil 1127 and 1157 is surrounded by the feedback from the bike. When you ride a 900RR or a GSXR1100 to the limit it "speaks to you" in a way that a '05 CBR1000RR or a '07 GSXR1000 just can't. Tire technology is far from what is solely to blame as well.

Swingarms got longer as engine cases shrunk and transmissions were stacked vertically, engines shoved as close to the front axle as possible, and seating positions forcing you into the race tuck regardless of your skill levels on a sport bike (or more aptly known when I began my infatuation with riding, a "race replica"), for the kiddo's reading this, that is where all your funky pirate sounding bike names comes from, CBR----"RR" as in, "Race Replica" ;)). Always laughed at the sight of a bike with a bazillion R's in the name as if to say to the unknowing, "this thing is serious". LOL

I know I am drifting a bit off topic here, but bear with me, and keep in mind, the ones of us who watched the technological evolution of motorcycle racing don't prefer to watch 500's because they were "better" by any measure, or even faster, but it was the courageous riders that picked up a wheelie at the end of a corner and didn't set it down until the braking zone of the next that made us stand up from our seats and cheer them on. Mr. Roberts himself has said time and again in interviews he caught hell for his behavior on (and at times off) the track due to his enjoyment of everything hooligan on two wheels. For bloody sake the man rode a TZ flat tracker to a stunning victory on a few occasions when Harley owned the dirt miles for years prior... I agree with him when he said "MotoGP is far removed from what the 500 era was.". But I have to say it's not that different at all, only us older guys feel so. :)

HornetMaX

Quote from: grimm on March 06, 2014, 11:12:03 AM
I guarantee the front and rear end slides of a current MotoGP machine feel far more under control, but it is the same slides that the old 500's had as well
Right, this seems to be another common pattern. No longer than a few months back, on another forum a user criticized MotoGP saying "where are the rear wheels sliding out of a corner like in the 500 era ?". It didn't took long to another user (not me) to post him a shitload of MotoGP super slo-mo replays (from youtube) showing today's guys are sliding as hell. And not only out of a corner, but also getting in the corner and well in the middle of it. But somehow, the 500 fans don't see that ... kind of selective sliding eye sensitivity ;)

I do admire the courage of past riders (and F1 drivers, and rally drivers), but courage can't be the #1 motivation, otherwise we'd be all watching the youtube videos of that russian guy doing single arm pull-ups from the top of a crane with 200m of void below him (and no safety net). Wait, ... we're all watching that, ain't we ? :)

Now if we want funnier races, I'm all in favor of that: just don't ask to go back to a crazy era. It won't happen anyway.

MaX.

Hawk

@Max: I don't know who that guy was who was talking about were the rear wheel slides are today like with the old 500cc GP bikes, but in my opinion he has got it very wrong. Modern MotoGP riders spin that rear wheel up all the time, it's standard practice nowadays.
In the old days of 500cc GP bikes(and I'm talking about the 1970's - mid 80's) only a very few talented guys could slide the rear wheel like they do today. I think it was Freddie Spencer who really started it all off in that era with his incredible throttle control for the bikes of those days, and it became increasingly more so when the 500cc bikes started to get their big bang engines which I heard it reported that those engines upped the BHP from around 130bhp to 180-190BHP(Is this true?). In those days it took very real throttle control with that very narrow power band on the 2 stroke bikes. Today every rider is doing it; don't know if it's because of all that extra power at their wrist, or whether it's down to being able to set traction control to allow for some rear wheel slide but not enough to over do it? I believe it gives a modern MotoGP rider a greater range for errors before the bike will chew you up and spit you out, is that correct? I've never used traction control so I wouldn't really know.  :)

grimm

Geometry of the bikes has relaxed a great deal allowing for not only a far easier to ride bike, but allowing the wheel slip to be regulated alot better as well. Tire technology makes up for the "relaxed" geometry numbers and there by reduces head shakes and rear end slides to what is given as a rider input rather than just a character of the bike's behavior.

Early 500GP (a rather accurate scale model, but none the less a good example):





Late era 500GP (you can see the clear difference in suspension design, not much else changes all that drastically though):





Current era MotoGP (Vastly longer in the suspension department, shorter frame and engine distance between the wheels, the list goes on and on with the ways the engineers centralized the mass of the bike, a Honda trade term was coined by this sort of development, and with it came an ability to expirement with smaller diameter tires, different levels of suspension travel, swingarm pivot location could be changed for a far more drastic effect with a longer swingarm, fork rake and trail could be completely modified to suit tire compound and track surface in a way the 500's could only dream of in the late 80's and early 90's):


HornetMaX

That was exactly one of my points: electronics surely contribute to the difference between today and the 500 period, but it's only one of the differences.

Like Eddie (lol, sounds like I know him) said in the video, tires are very different, suspensions are very different. I'd personally also add that chassis are very different too: due to progress in technology (materials, processes etc) and in understanding of bike dynamic behavior (through simulation and theory).

If we were to build a 500cc bike today (under the rules of that period), I'm not sure it would be very very similar to the 500cc bikes at the time. It was a long time ago ...

Today it would probably be possible to intentionally give these MotoGP bikes a very narrow power band 9thanks to ... uh, electronics) similar to the one of a 500: but why in hell one would want to do that ? Because it is more "spectacular" ? Not sure anybody can defend that argument ...

MaX.

grimm

I think I am seeing a common theme here, the GP Bikes community is small because we are very like minded. Can be a good thing and can surely cause some pretty strong arguments as well, but one thing is for sure, we are loyal to our cause of top end motorcycle technology and control.  8)

Alby46

my idea is that the riders, whether of the past or the modern era, are and have been brave and spectacular in different ways, we just can't find a reason why today's riders are spectacular.
Still riding a 50cc, but enjoying it :)