Author Topic: General netcode/physics debate.  (Read 4633 times)

doubledragoncc

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Re: General netcode/physics debate.
« Reply #30 on: February 25, 2016, 08:35:32 PM »
Hey Grooveski, long time dude. Even I went online and raced for the first time since 2010 and it was great. I am not fast as I am learning new tracks and the new beta but it is so much better than riding alone and you learn a lot from the others.

Hope to see you online sometime

DD
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Stout Johnson

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Re: General netcode/physics debate.
« Reply #31 on: February 25, 2016, 10:12:05 PM »
I love racing online but i must admit with GPB i would be alot happier to see a serious simulator at the end of it all.. even if it meant multiplayer took the back seat.. so im kinda happy reading this thread  ;D

Guess my point is that I wasn't even close to going online(and I'm as big a fan of online racing as the next guy). 
For me the time has been spent on the right issues. 

With all due respect to your opinions, I think you do not fully understand what I (and several others like Hawk and MaX ...) are referring to. Of course realistic physics is the no.1 prerequisite. But GPB's physics is probably far ahead of anything else since the early alpha-versions. My fear is, that if Piboso furthermore ignores the importance of a working netcode and strives to get the physics simulation perfect ('perfect' in that respect is an illusion anyhow) before tackling netcode with all powers he has, then GPB will be overtaken sooner or later - in all likeliness ending the development of the greatest motorcycle simulation in the process. What good will it be then, that beta_x+1 felt better than the beta_x?

Let me make it more evident: Let's assume Piboso continues developing like he did. GPB beta9 will probably arrive some time around late 2016 or early 2017, with small physics improvements (but still some things that need to be adressed in terms of physics and virtual rider), supposedly some improvements in terms of netcode (but still core.exe being very numerous in crowded dynamic track servers). So then just imagine one of the numerous car sim developers happens to make up his mind to use his knowledge in tyre and suspension simulation etc. to publish a bike simulation with next gen graphics. Or if RIDE 2 should all of a sudden be developed by a team with more ambitious aspirations in terms of physics simulation. As sad as it is, GPB would be history in no time then  :-\  The development of a rival title could be much less dramatic though, if netcode was working in the mean-time. THEN the community would be growing in no time, mods would be developed left and right and another title would be much less of a threat, better graphics or not.

I know I am repeating myself here, but only because I feel my point is either not fully understood (or just being ignored). And I just can't help myself to wiggle the 'finger of sanity'... with the slim hope of being heard, and more importantly being understood.

No one would be here supporting the project if it was just another bike game.
If you want to just race online, there's plenty of Milestone games.
So of course physics always took the top spot, because it's what makes GP Bikes unique.
I am part of the GPB community since the early days, and you should know I am one of the rather hardcore sim supporters. That's is why I always try to contribute in the discussions on GPB physics. But as stated above, GPB is beyond 'just another bike game' for many many years. You already have that unique selling proposition since a long time and it is not even scratched by any title. For you there is no reason whatsoever to push physics at this point. What you need is to cover the market asap. A situation like you are experiencing with KRP concerning KK should be a warning sign. You drew the right conclusion by assuming that you need to be ahead in terms of mods. But you fail to realize that the motivation for developing mods needs a big community, and a growing community will only come with working online competition.

Before you feel like I am a real pain in the ass bothering you: I do not want to bother you, I know it is your project and you have every right to develop it whichever way you feel. BUT, I love GPB and I want it to be a success. And from numerous remarks from you I know that you not only want your projects to be the best sims, you also need them to be financially successful to some degree.Yet, you fail to act accordingly. The way you develop your projects atm, resembles more or less the way of a financially independent dev, who is just doing it for the cause. If that was your situation, then you just would not have to bother whether you are succesfull in terms of sales, you could be content to know you have the best physics sims. But unless I totally misunderstood your posts concerning the need for sales, this is not your situation. But if you continue to develop like you do, then you have to live with the possible consequences ... And if you were in fact not concerned about that though, then I would not understand why you would freak out if a new dev announces threatening competition (like KK). In that respect, you do not seem to act logically consistent.

That will be my final remarks on that matter, though I pretty much assume my efforts are in vain anyhow... 
« Last Edit: February 25, 2016, 10:31:37 PM by Stout Johnson »
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doubledragoncc

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Re: General netcode/physics debate.
« Reply #32 on: February 25, 2016, 10:23:36 PM »
I dont know about anyone else but surely the core crashes should be a priority as it dont matter if online works or the physics are perfect if you get 4 core crashes in 20 mins as you cant do a bloody thing and just get pissed off. Yes I have full clean install, 990 on different tracks, also before I even selected to ride etc etc. If the game itself is permanently crashing what good is online and physics?

Just sayin

DD
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BOBR6 84

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Re: General netcode/physics debate.
« Reply #33 on: February 26, 2016, 07:59:53 AM »
@Stout

hey man your opinion is a great one! (always is  ;)) and i pretty much agree with most of what you said above.. The difference for me personally is that i play all kinds of bike games.. for online bike racing i don't just stick to GPB. i can play motogp, ride, trials, whatever..

What keeps me coming back to GPB is the physics.. and the fact that it strives for realism. I don't consider myself to be a sim racer in general but i do like simulation.. (i ride and race bikes and im always comparing games/sim to my own experiences) So if piboso carries on improving the physics and tidying some things up, sticking to the hardcore simulator route.. then that is my realism ''fix'' sorted!  ;)

i will still play other bike ''games'' BUT would/will always support GPB!

What annoys me about other bike games is that they are ALL dumbed down to suit the casual player.. Whereas Piboso sticks two fingers up to all of that, which is awesome!!  8)

Another view is that alot of people just want to play/race multiplayer with a stable, user friendly bike.. like i said, i already play lots of bike games online.. with GPB i would like to see the bike physics complete and polished, instead of ''quick fixes'' just to be able to race online.. (although i agree the physics already are very advanced!)

Also.. don't get me wrong, i find the core.exe problems EXTREMELY frustrating..... and i think when everything comes together at the end, GPB will be an incredible online bike racing simulator! hopefully  8) :)




HornetMaX

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Re: General netcode/physics debate.
« Reply #34 on: February 26, 2016, 11:25:38 AM »
Not trying to convince whoever, I know it's wasted time (and I guess Stout feels the same), but what's the point of having the ultimate modafukka physics simulation if one can't actually use it ?

Nobody is asking to dumb-down GPB physics: physics is what makes GPB good. But the stability/online issues are what makes GPB bad.

I could have in my garage a beautiful 1290 SuperDukeR with its stock exhaust and totally fucked up tyres: putting an aftermarket exhaust would make it even more bad-ass, but changing the tyres would allow me to actually use it. I could spend the money for the exhaust right now and then wait to pile up the quids for the tyres: in the while, I can't use it. Or I could swap the tyres now and wait to pile up for the exhaust: in the while I can use it. Between the two, I know what I'd pick. It's just that simple.

teeds

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Re: General netcode/physics debate.
« Reply #35 on: February 26, 2016, 11:59:01 AM »
Is it possible to buy off the shelf netcode for games?

HornetMaX

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Re: General netcode/physics debate.
« Reply #36 on: February 26, 2016, 12:04:03 PM »
Is it possible to buy off the shelf netcode for games?
Unlikely. And it's not even sure it would solve our issues. The reasons of the crashes are not necessarily located in the netcode.

Boerenlater

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Re: General netcode/physics debate.
« Reply #37 on: February 26, 2016, 12:08:21 PM »
I wonder if our Piboso actually might know what exactly causes it.
Dutch rider

doubledragoncc

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Re: General netcode/physics debate.
« Reply #38 on: February 26, 2016, 12:10:14 PM »
It never gets put in the daily update that it is actually being worked on!!!

DD
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HornetMaX

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Re: General netcode/physics debate.
« Reply #39 on: February 26, 2016, 12:11:29 PM »
It never gets put in the daily update that it is actually being worked on!!!
Because it's not being worked on. That's the whole point some of us have been trying to push forward in the last 3 or more years.

h106frp

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Re: General netcode/physics debate.
« Reply #40 on: February 26, 2016, 12:12:11 PM »
I am not sure that the existing netcode is really that bad it just seems to handle exceptions badly. Part of the problem seems to be that the result of an error is very inconvenient for the end user as it just dumps the game for that connection rather than catching the error and handling it gracefully.

As the game scenario has not changed for the other clients still running connections (i.e. server side is still happy) i do not see why the currently corrupt data cycle causing the fatal error cannot be refreshed on the next cycle from the server. I would rather have a millisecond refresh 'stutter' rather than a core.exe desktop crash.

HornetMaX

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Re: General netcode/physics debate.
« Reply #41 on: February 26, 2016, 12:21:01 PM »
But there's more: sometimes the server itself goes nuts, not the clients. And we do have offline crashes (no netcode or server involved).
It's not even sure it's a matter of just "handling exceptions nicely". Some errors just do not allow you to carry on.

Hawk

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Re: General netcode/physics debate.
« Reply #42 on: February 26, 2016, 12:24:18 PM »
Is it possible to buy off the shelf netcode for games?
Unlikely. And it's not even sure it would solve our issues. The reasons of the crashes are not necessarily located in the netcode.

Try this..... It's called, "RAKNET":

http://www.jenkinssoftware.com/index.old.html

I believe this is "The" FREE multi-player code solution for the games industry. It used to have a $2,000 dollar license fee but since Occulus bought it they now license it for free to developers.
Whether it could be used efficiently with Pibos's code? Only Piboso can know that, but it's there if he wants to try it.   ;)

Hawk.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2016, 02:36:01 PM by Hawk »

BOBR6 84

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Re: General netcode/physics debate.
« Reply #43 on: February 26, 2016, 07:44:33 PM »
Not trying to convince whoever, I know it's wasted time (and I guess Stout feels the same), but what's the point of having the ultimate modafukka physics simulation if one can't actually use it ?

I do understand what you are saying, but that's not entirely true.. Not had much time to play so far this year but the past couple of years before christmas i was playing quite often.. even long periods of playing every single day! As you can see from most of my basic shitty video's, most of it is riding alone in testing, amusing myself with the bike physics!

Sure, some big issues when you venture online, but even that doesn't stop people..

Personally i think the number of players is low because not everybody wants full on simulation. I bought a PS4  :P if i go online on motogp there is literally hundreds of players (sometimes) and thousands on the leaderboards.

The people that want a bike sim will find their way here (i did) and will stick around regardless..

Hawk

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Re: General netcode/physics debate.
« Reply #44 on: February 26, 2016, 09:32:44 PM »
Not trying to convince whoever, I know it's wasted time (and I guess Stout feels the same), but what's the point of having the ultimate modafukka physics simulation if one can't actually use it ?

I do understand what you are saying, but that's not entirely true.. Not had much time to play so far this year but the past couple of years before christmas i was playing quite often.. even long periods of playing every single day! As you can see from most of my basic shitty video's, most of it is riding alone in testing, amusing myself with the bike physics!

Sure, some big issues when you venture online, but even that doesn't stop people..

Personally i think the number of players is low because not everybody wants full on simulation. I bought a PS4  :P if i go online on motogp there is literally hundreds of players (sometimes) and thousands on the leaderboards.

The people that want a bike sim will find their way here (i did) and will stick around regardless..

A question Bob: Would you have bought GPBikes if you knew it didn't have multi-player capability and all you could do was ride around tracks all on your own?

I think the physics is very important and something that puts GPBikes at the top of the racing bike simulation category, but I also think that a stable network/multiplayer capability is just as important for the large market sales I believe GPB could have if the multi-player was stable..... I mean the more people who played in events online the more self-generating the sales would become from others who see it and hear about it and want to be part of it. Multiplayer is MASSIVE nowadays!  ;D

Food for thought:
Riding around on your own is okay for a bit of practice and to initially get used to riding a bike in GPB, but you'll never get that feeling of striving to be the best and win races without participating in online events. Plus you'll never become proficient at racing close in with other riders by riding on your own, so you'll never know what your real skills are in GPB without riding online amongst other riders, so any fast times you do alone on track are pretty irrelevant if your incapable of riding fast in the heat of battle too, don't you think?  ;)

This is why for me personally, hotlapping for the fastest lap time is a totally senseless pursuit...... I mean how many times do you see someone put in a shit-hot lap time and yet come race day they end up down the field because they can't race? I've seen it many times, and recently too. The reality is that they concentrate SO much on hot-lapping that they forget how to race.  :)

Anyway, I'll get off my soap-box before I start sounding like an old man. Hehe  ;D

Hawk.