Author Topic: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs  (Read 3061 times)

HornetMaX

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Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2016, 10:31:04 AM »
But still the bike doesn't seem to handle as it should on any ribbed type kerbs and I think that is maybe because of the lack of detail in the tyre deformity model?
Surely. The problem is that the solution for that may be very complex.

Unless Piboso plans to work on the issue, I'd advise to stick to "flat" kerbs (non ribbed).

Hawk

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Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2016, 12:12:17 PM »
But still the bike doesn't seem to handle as it should on any ribbed type kerbs and I think that is maybe because of the lack of detail in the tyre deformity model?
Surely. The problem is that the solution for that may be very complex.

Unless Piboso plans to work on the issue, I'd advise to stick to "flat" kerbs (non ribbed).

Oh indeed I agree it probably would be a very complex issue to sort out, but this is a simulation right? A word and meaning that Piboso himself supports big time, so even though it maybe complex it should be simulated properly to get the correct reactions when tyres travel over ribbed kerbs.... If rfactor can put a high detail tyres model into their sim then I'm sure Piboso is well capable of doing the same type of thing, though the complexity of a bike tyre in such situations is probably 10X as complex I don't know? But I'd say yes! Go for it Pib!  ;D

Besides, it's detail like that, that makes the difference between being a great sim and a run of the mill sim.... Surely a great sim is the thing to aim for.  :)

Advising to stick to flat kerbs is as good as saying lets put in any data that works into the bikes physics instead of real data.... Yes you'll get apparently good results, but those results will never have all those subtle differences and depth in handling and feel that you get from using real world data and modelling in a sim; you'd might as well tell people to stick to milestone games.  :P

Hawk.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2016, 06:29:47 PM by Hawk »

HornetMaX

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Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2016, 01:23:41 PM »
Advising to stick to flat kerbs is as good as saying lets put in any data that works into the bikes physics instead of real data.... Yes you'll get apparently good results, but those results will never have all those subtle differences and depth in handling and feel that you get from using real world data and modelling in a sim; you'd might as well tell people to stick to milestone games.  :P

I don't see how using flat kerbs is any different from what you do every time: smoothing tracks and creating NDS tracks ... should I point you towards Milestone's games ?

Also, keep in mind that extra complexity sometimes comes at a price for modders too: take for example the new rear suspension; is there anybody that managed to actually use it ? I don't think so.

Anyway, I'd be with you if GPB was functioning fine right now. But as it clearly isn't, I'd much prefer key pain points to be worked on before ribbed kerbs.
Especially as the changes necessary to handle properly ribbed kerbs are likely very important (i.e. they could take a lot of time).

Warlock

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Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2016, 01:39:16 PM »
If rfactor can put a high detail tyres model into their sim then I'm sure Piboso is well capable of doing the same type of thing, though the complexity of a bike tyre in such situations is probably 10X as complex I don't know? But I'd say yes! Go for it Pib!  ;D


Probably you would need a NASA microprocessor to play GPB   ;D  to simulate such a detailed tyre deformation.

These kerbs are usually modeled with a single edge to keep it low poly, but we haven't tried a more detailed kerb edge as far as i know. Maybe a bit more beveled poly can help...  it will have quite a hit in polycount for sure, but....who knows

Hawk

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Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2016, 06:28:49 PM »
Advising to stick to flat kerbs is as good as saying lets put in any data that works into the bikes physics instead of real data.... Yes you'll get apparently good results, but those results will never have all those subtle differences and depth in handling and feel that you get from using real world data and modelling in a sim; you'd might as well tell people to stick to milestone games.  :P

I don't see how using flat kerbs is any different from what you do every time: smoothing tracks and creating NDS tracks ... should I point you towards Milestone's games ?

Also, keep in mind that extra complexity sometimes comes at a price for modders too: take for example the new rear suspension; is there anybody that managed to actually use it ? I don't think so.

Anyway, I'd be with you if GPB was functioning fine right now. But as it clearly isn't, I'd much prefer key pain points to be worked on before ribbed kerbs.
Especially as the changes necessary to handle properly ribbed kerbs are likely very important (i.e. they could take a lot of time).


Just to correct you Max and anyone else who presumes what I do with tracks: I DO NOT SMOOTH TRACKS and never have done.  ::)
I replace badly created track topology and modelling and then only with track surfaces up to now. That's apart from the odd track conversion that I've done for people who ask me to do it, but that's not mainly my modelling work anyway, it's mainly from the original authors. :P ::)
The lie of the track is exactly the same as the one I replace, no difference at all. The only difference is that the toplogy is good for the use it's designed for. Any bumps in the old tracks are not design, they are bad modelling practices, so the fact that those bad bumps are not there anymore after I rebuild the track surfaces isn't due to me smoothing anything, I just rebuild the track surfaces correctly. Hope that finally gets through not just to you Max but to everyone else who keeps saying from time to time that I smooth the track surfaces... I don't.  ::)

As far as creating NDS version tracks; you know full well the reason NDS tracks are used so I find that a very strange thing you say about that Max..... You getting old mate? Lol   ;D

Plus you know full well that if track authors start to build flat kerb surfaces into their tracks then they are not then going to go back and put in the very much harder and longer work to build realistic kerbs to scale at different parts of the tracks to replace those later, so better Piboso sort out this problem if it is that problem than track modellers just building flat kerb surfaces that will never get replaced with realistic ones in future.

Dynamic tracks are already there and waiting for when Piboso sorts that problem out so that is not a problem; NDS tracks are and have always been just a temporary solution to a long standing problem and you know that too.

So yeah... Big difference between just building in flat kerb surfaces instead of sorting out the root issue in GPB so we can enjoy the real reactions and feel in handling when a rider uses the kerbs.


Hawk.

HornetMaX

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Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2016, 08:29:19 PM »
NDS is compromise. Flat kerbs are a compromise.

Hawk

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Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2016, 09:20:48 PM »
NDS is compromise. Flat kerbs are a compromise.

Too simplistic to just say flat kerbs are a compromise the same as NDS..... If you cannot see the difference without taking things out of context then we'll just agree to disagree.  ;) 8)

As we usually do anyway. Lol!  ;D 8)

Hawk.

Corrie

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Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2016, 01:20:07 AM »
NDS = No Dynamic Surface? Sorry for not knowing, but what's the problem with dynamic surfaces in GPB? I am going to put out two versions - with saw-toothed kerbs and one with all flat kerbs. It's not a pain if I add them in from the start, so might as well put in the effort. Not many people like fantasy tracks in KRP, so I don't think many of the GPB/WRS community will like them, just the trend that seems to be happening. Any trackmaking rules I need to look for (aside from the basics) to integrate the track into GPB?

HornetMaX

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Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2016, 07:08:25 AM »
After a bunch of tests, it seems that racing online on a track with Dynamic Surface leads to more troubles (client crashing, server going nuts) than when racing online on a track without dynamic surface.

Hawk

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Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2016, 11:23:59 AM »
NDS = No Dynamic Surface? Sorry for not knowing, but what's the problem with dynamic surfaces in GPB? I am going to put out two versions - with saw-toothed kerbs and one with all flat kerbs. It's not a pain if I add them in from the start, so might as well put in the effort. Not many people like fantasy tracks in KRP, so I don't think many of the GPB/WRS community will like them, just the trend that seems to be happening. Any trackmaking rules I need to look for (aside from the basics) to integrate the track into GPB?

If your going to start making different version tracks for kerbs as well then you need to name the track appropriately for inclusion in the track download database so that people looking for your tracks know which one is NDS, Dynamic, Flat kerbs, and ribbed kerbs....
Look at the track name conventions for NDS and Dynamic tracks in the database to guide you, but as far as different real world track versions for flat kerbs are concerned, maybe just add a suffix of "_FK" at the end of the current track naming conventions, but all these different same version will be deleted from the database(real world tracks) once Piboso has fixed any issues that would mean proper tracks(Dynamic with real kerb designs) are stable in their use.

But to be honest with you, for real-world tracks I would just create the kerbs as they are in reality(to real scale) and lets wait for the update fix from Piboso.

For pure fantasy tracks then obviously you can design whatever you want for them but please stick to the track name suffix naming convention for NDS tracks, but with it being a fantasy track then no need to include a suffix for the kerb type design. Thank you.  ;) 8)

Hawk.

Corrie

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Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
« Reply #25 on: July 31, 2016, 04:22:29 PM »
These photos are an update on it all. It's progressed much more than the photos show - they are just elevation profiles (250% z-axis scale) and to show the main pit building.

The main pit building/garages


Elevation profile of car/bike track


Elevation profile of kart track

More updates to come.

Alby46

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Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2016, 08:11:01 AM »
that looks awesome! what track is that?
Still riding a 50cc, but enjoying it :)

Corrie

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Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
« Reply #27 on: August 17, 2016, 12:35:27 AM »
Both are fantasty tracks (the original layout was not created by me) Just a fun little project!

Alby46

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Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
« Reply #28 on: August 17, 2016, 10:41:12 AM »
nice!
Still riding a 50cc, but enjoying it :)

doNico

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Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
« Reply #29 on: August 17, 2016, 08:24:17 PM »
just to push this aswell ... Sachsenring needs a big redo with the curbs ... they are slippery as hell

~doN