Author Topic: CAWS MOD Team - Beta 11 - GP500 92 Bike Set Release.  (Read 3962 times)

vini97

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Re: CAWS MOD Team - GP500 92 Bike Set Release.
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2016, 11:42:04 AM »
ah, i have a hard time explaining how it feels exactly but it's not the front or the rear of the bike alone, it's how the forces travel through the chassis from front to rear or vice-versa.
it's actually very easy to spot (maybe easier with Direct Lean 100%). some good examples are the earlier versions of Manu's MotoGP bikes (I remember the suzuki and rcv initially being very stiff) and the 2001 nsr (where a last minute update with a too stiff chassis kind of ruined that one race).
« Last Edit: September 24, 2016, 11:52:32 AM by vin97 »
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Hawk

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Re: CAWS MOD Team - GP500 92 Bike Set Release.
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2016, 07:33:21 AM »
@Hawk: cool!
sorry for just finding out about these bikes now lol
great work!

are there plans on improving the sound? more dynamics would be great.

in general, i think that the exhaust note needs to be more of a sawtooth wave.
for the last ~2k rpm (where the expansion chambers are "in tune") it can get smoother (more like a sine wave but still not as 'clean' as the current sound).
treble (overtones/harmonics) should be (gradually) rolled off a bit and from around max-power-rpm onwards, (almost) only the fundamental should be left to get the typical 90 screamer sound of that era.
example 1 & 2.
i hope you understand what i mean.

lastly, it would be awesome if you could recreate the stutter at partial throttle.

Hi Vin.

We studied those very videos many times in the past wishing we could recreate those beautiful 2 stroke engine tones, but obtaining good enough sound samples of usable length from the real bikes to create those engine sounds is very difficult if not nigh on impossible to do from a scratch basis....
But in answer to your question, if the possibility of creating the highly detailed 2 stroke engine sound files presented itself in the future then we would definitely want to do that, yes.  ;D
In the meantime we have to make do with the best we have. But at the same time we are always open and searching for a way to do this.  ;)

And yes, that characteristic 2 stroke engine stutter when riders feather their throttle is an AWSOME sound!  ;D 8)

Hawk.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2016, 07:34:57 AM by Hawk »

vini97

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Re: CAWS MOD Team - GP500 92 Bike Set Release.
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2016, 08:45:14 AM »
yeah, a shame the mics were not quite as good back then as today.
you'd have to reconstruct the exhaust note by getting the measuremnts of the exhaust pipes and then working out the math (helmholtz resonance).
there are many papers on this topic, it's pretty interesting IMO. here are two PDFs that include concrete examples, in case you are interested.


but the stutter at partial throttle is not really related to all that more advanced stuff.
is it possible to do something like that with the GPB sound engine? doesn't seem too complicated to me.
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Hawk

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Re: CAWS MOD Team - GP500 92 Bike Set Release.
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2016, 12:57:16 PM »
yeah, a shame the mics were not quite as good back then as today.
you'd have to reconstruct the exhaust note by getting the measuremnts of the exhaust pipes and then working out the math (helmholtz resonance).
there are many papers on this topic, it's pretty interesting IMO. here are two PDFs that include concrete examples, in case you are interested.


but the stutter at partial throttle is not really related to all that more advanced stuff.
is it possible to do something like that with the GPB sound engine? doesn't seem too complicated to me.

Thanks for the info Vin, that could come in very useful.  ;) 8)

As far as I understand, it would be possible to create that 2 stroke engine "Stutter" sound because as I understand it GPB sound is created via layers, therefore it should be possible as far as I know to build up layers of sound to accomplish what is required?
What I don't know is whether several layers can be played back at once(on different sound channels) or if only one layer at a time can be played?

Warlock is our main man who understands the GPB sound creation workflow, he's our team sound engineer as well as a bloody good 3d modeller/artist.  ;)

Hawk.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2016, 01:44:01 PM by Hawk »

HornetMaX

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Re: CAWS MOD Team - GP500 92 Bike Set Release.
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2016, 01:32:29 PM »
What I don't know is whether several layers can be played back at once(on different sound channels) or if only one layer at a time can be played?
Multiple layers can be played at once of course: you have an OFF layer and and ON layer mixed together depending on throttle position (and something else likely), plus inside each layer you can have multiple samples active (i.e. played) at the same time. I'm sure Warlock is more than aware of all this.

Warlock

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Re: CAWS MOD Team - GP500 92 Bike Set Release.
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2016, 01:39:51 PM »

The problem is sound is not related to throttle but to rpms, so it's not possible to recognize half throttle or full throttle. You will hear the sttuter even on fully open, the sample will just loop and stutter at weird and unjustified moments, half straight when fully open, for example
Only onthrottle or offthrottle is possible

Warlock

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Re: CAWS MOD Team - GP500 92 Bike Set Release.
« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2016, 01:49:20 PM »
Yes Max ,  at half throttle both get mixed , but if you try to do that stutter thing will get it at weird moments. Same with backfires, you get them at undesired moments when onthrottle, corners where you keep a bit of throttle during the corner . And backfires should only sound offthrottle

HornetMaX

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Re: CAWS MOD Team - GP500 92 Bike Set Release.
« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2016, 01:51:28 PM »
The problem is sound is not related to throttle but to rpms, so it's not possible to recognize half throttle or full throttle. You will hear the sttuter even on fully open, the sample will just loop and stutter at weird and unjustified moments, half straight when fully open, for example
Only onthrottle or offthrottle is possible
I see what you mean: GPB mixes your ON and OFF layers and we have no way to change the way it does this.
So if you put a rattle sound on the OFF layer, you will hear it when throttle is OFF (and that's OK) but also when the throttle is partially ON (even if you'll hear it at a lower volume).

But vin seems to want a "stutter" at partial throttle, this is definitely possible (with the right samples, of course).

Hawk

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Re: CAWS MOD Team - GP500 92 Bike Set Release.
« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2016, 01:52:43 PM »
Also noticed from the vids you posted Vin, that the engine sound when the bike is coming toward you is mainly that strong carburetted induction sound, and only when the bike has passed do you hear more of the strong tinny rasping sound of the 2 stroke rear exhausts. I'm just wondering how the sound engine would deal with that? Because as I understand the sound engine in GPB it works off the dolby *doppler(thanks for the correction Max. Lol) effect, but could it differentiate between the two sounds and present them as is reality? All these sort of things could do with being tested out to see what results come out of it.  :)

Hawk.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2016, 02:07:35 PM by Hawk »

HornetMaX

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Re: CAWS MOD Team - GP500 92 Bike Set Release.
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2016, 02:00:33 PM »
Also noticed from the vids you posted Vin, that the engine sound when the bike is coming toward you is mainly that strong carburetted induction sound, and only when the bike has passed do you hear more of the strong tinny rasping sound of the 2 stroke rear exhausts. I'm just wondering how the sound engine would deal with that? Because as I understand the sound engine in GPB it works off the dolby effect, but could it differentiate between the two sounds and present them as is reality? All these sort of things could do with being tested out to see what results come out of it.  :)
I guess you mean the doppler effect (and not the dolby effect).

If on top you mean that with a bike standing still, a listener standing 20m in front of the bike should hear a different sound compared to a listener standing 20m behind the bike (more airbox in front, more exhaust back), this would need:
  • 2 sources attached to the bike: one for the airbox, one for the exhaust. Easy, in principle.
  • The 2 sources should be somehow diectional: airbos emitting more forward, exhaust more backward.  Easy, in pricinple.
  • Modders would need to have 2 .scl, one for each source. Hard in practice: we already have plenty of problems with a single one :)

Warlock

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Re: CAWS MOD Team - GP500 92 Bike Set Release.
« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2016, 02:08:12 PM »
Same for onboard and 3rdp view sound, so add another scl lol.
And if we are picky enoungh, another one for when you look back when onboard  ;D
« Last Edit: September 25, 2016, 02:13:38 PM by Hawk »

Hawk

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Re: CAWS MOD Team - GP500 92 Bike Set Release.
« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2016, 02:13:54 PM »
Same for onboard and 3rdp view sound, so add another scl lol.
And if we are picky enoungh, another one for when you look back when onboard  ;D


That is very true Warlock.... But if the sound engine was detailed enough then the sounds would automatically sound as they should according to the position your hearing them from, yes?  :)

Hawk.

vini97

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Re: CAWS MOD Team - GP500 92 Bike Set Release.
« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2016, 02:26:27 PM »
Also noticed from the vids you posted Vin, that the engine sound when the bike is coming toward you is mainly that strong carburetted induction sound, and only when the bike has passed do you hear more of the strong tinny rasping sound of the 2 stroke rear exhausts. I'm just wondering how the sound engine would deal with that? Because as I understand the sound engine in GPB it works off the dolby *doppler(thanks for the correction Max. Lol) effect, but could it differentiate between the two sounds and present them as is reality? All these sort of things could do with being tested out to see what results come out of it.  :)

Hawk.

true but it's not just the induction sound. in the other onboard video you can clearly hear how the sound characteristic changes (when the crankcase is resonating in tune with the expansion chambers).
this very distinct feature of two-strokes is not really taken into account in gpb.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2016, 02:27:59 PM by vin97 »
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HornetMaX

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Re: CAWS MOD Team - GP500 92 Bike Set Release.
« Reply #28 on: September 25, 2016, 02:27:01 PM »
Same for onboard and 3rdp view sound, so add another scl lol.
Don't know, once you have 2 sources, then onboard and 3rd person should already see fairly different sounds even with the same .scl thanks to different position of the "virtual ears" :)
Onboard may have some sort of filter to take into account the effect of the helmet and earplugs: that would allow to have a single .scl for both 3rd person and onboard. It may even be already the case.

And if we are picky enoungh, another one for when you look back when onboard  ;D
No, that would be unnecessary: the "virtual ears" should just rotate as the head/camera do when looking back. OpenAL will do the rest.

Warlock

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Re: CAWS MOD Team - GP500 92 Bike Set Release.
« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2016, 02:35:31 PM »



That is very true Warlock.... But if the sound engine was detailed enough then the sounds would automatically sound as they should according to the position your hearing them from, yes?  :)

Hawk.

That would be the king of sound engines hehehe.
No sound engine would simulate an airbox sound if you dont provide it with a sample

Edit : Ram Air  i meant to say :P
« Last Edit: September 25, 2016, 02:41:14 PM by Warlock »