Author Topic: eMotorsports?  (Read 3108 times)

Hawk

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5881
  • MOD Team: CAWS / GP-Team: Horizon GP #7
    • View Profile
Re: eMotorsports?
« Reply #30 on: May 19, 2017, 04:23:33 PM »
The main issue with eSports in Western culture they aren't deemed to be mainstream spectator sport. (Not like football/rugby/cricket/f1/motogp/etc. anyway) Go to Asia (mainly Japan, Korea, Tiwan) and you can move without seeing some sort of Game being shown as "sport" on the TV/Internet.

Things are catching up but not at the pace most people would probably like and certianlly not in the Motorsports genre. It is to neiche. 

Unless we see a massive shift in how and what people watch I don't think there is going to be a massive following soon. The community (for motorbike sims anyway) is to small the shout loud enough to get poeple to listen/watch and those who currently watch racing are most likley envolved in it in some way.

Totally agree with you Matty about eSport and gaming in general in the "East" is hugely popular and lucrative earnings can be made to over there in playing games for a living.

The only reason, in my opinion, eSports are not deemed as spectator sports on TV or whatever in the "West" is simply because no one in the west has the balls to invest in it.
But I don't see any reason eSport could not become as popular as mainstream sport coverage if realistic simulation software was being used in any particular genre of sport.

There has been a couple of attempts to bring gaming to TV in the west, but as I've pointed out in previous posts here: Gaming is great fun if your playing the game itself, but soon gets boring for anyone watching it, and it was typical cheap TV where they took a popular console game and thought just because a lot of people had bought it that a lot of people would watch it. WRONG!
This is were watching a realistic simulation  of a sport, especially motorsport, is different, it holds your interest similar to watching the real deal. It ends up not at all about how popular the game or simulation is but starts to become a sport in itself with fans, characters and teams to support and follow through the season.

It's something that will, "I'm sure", only come from the grass roots of enthusiasts like ourselves starting to promote eSport for MotoGP, and then once it gets to a certain stage of popularity the big sponsorship from the big companies and media will start to take serious interest and in a lot of ways take over it's future.

Hawk.

Hawk

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5881
  • MOD Team: CAWS / GP-Team: Horizon GP #7
    • View Profile
Re: eMotorsports?
« Reply #31 on: May 19, 2017, 04:44:28 PM »
We been saying this sort of thing will happen for years now Pib...... Do you still think online racing and championship facilities/utilities isn't a main priority for GPB?

If GPBikes was rock solid stable and V1.0 you could've stood a good chance being noticed for such an interest from these guys wanting to create online championships; still could in the future if you can speed up development of GPB.  :)

In the meantime that piece of crap(MotoGP from Milestone) is going to get all the glory and in a lot of respects ruin the foundation for realistic online motorcycle racing championships. Notice I said, "Realistic"? This is where your niche is and what you should concentrate on for the online championship capabilities and not the Gameboys that will use Milestones MotoGP. Keep it real!  ;D 8)

Hawk.

At the moment there isn't enough money around racing eSports to justify the creation of all the tracks and bikes for a full season.
So the only option for Dorna is to use a game that already has the license and all the needed content. Plus, console versions.

The real question is: how many will be interested in following that championship? Does it have a future?
eSports sustain themselves with viewers, that attract sponsors and media coverage.

What do you think?

I'll tell you what I think. Its almost down right dead and boring how many times I have mentioned to developers @   "later Climax"/Monumental/Milestone/Capcom. I practically wrote books on the success of the first 2 Climax MotoGP offerings netcode, by Shawn Hargreaves.  On GP1 (Climax) every night was like a Friday night out with your friends. The scoreboards were the carrot and the competition was insane!   

You can make the greatest simulation/game but the most important part is creating a robust netcode the way Shawn Hargreaves did. All the features where there and no one beyond Shawn capitalized on his work...

A server that runs all platforms be it pc/xbox/ps etc with resettable scoreboards. Its the drama of a collective interest and the micro social bubbles. Having your name at the top of a scoreboard is like being a mini Rossi. It allows those who take virtual racing serious to a level of competitiveness not found by simply racing on line and crashing into each other.

On NetworkChallenge.org we kept the Climax series alive for years on PC until Gamespy ended.

Even if this NEW thing they wanna do is brought to the table they will ruin it. They just don't understand that simple is best and looking back to the past is the key!   :(         

I agree with you on a lot of things you said there above WALKEN, but I'd also say that times move on and people expect more today than in yesteryears. Yes the netcode has to be rock-solid, but I think the simulation has to be realistic too and much more involved than from years gone by. Just keeping things very simple today just won't cut it in my opinion; it has to be more involved, more realistic than simple score tables to hold a viewers/spectators attention' and this is in a lot of ways now more about the spectators involvement and interest and holding their interest more than the actual competitors involvement; the more spectator involvement the more interest from sponsors and big companies, and the competitors and spectators both will reap the benefit from that involvement.

Hawk.

WALKEN

  • Global Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 271
    • View Profile
Re: eMotorsports?
« Reply #32 on: May 19, 2017, 05:12:54 PM »
Hawk,

I agree about advancement. Look at Iracing, don't they have it all figured out with commentary and spectator live streaming etc?

If you truly want a broad audience then there has to be a middle ground. Where a simulation falls short, no matter how realistic it becomes you still have to allow weekend warriors to enjoy spinning around without penalty, that is reality. Those are the ones allowing us to have a fighting chance in a niche genre.

Its sort of like- You need Metallica to find Napalm Death  ;D           
Help me, help you!

passerBy

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 164
    • View Profile
Re: eMotorsports?
« Reply #33 on: May 19, 2017, 05:22:12 PM »
Have to agree with Max on this one. The world is ruled by money. Sometimes it's the need, sometimes it's sheer greed.

After the WRC license was given to Kylotonn once, Mario Kart has a good chance of becoming the official sim for KWC. Simulators are only of interest to the enthusiasts. And there's not a whole lot of enthusiasts out there... So, when you create a sim, you should get used to the idea that only a handful of people will appreciate your work. The more serious you are about the sim scene, the more respect to you, though.

The point here is: "How to make a success of online eSports, and how many viewers do we think can be attracted to watch such events".

It's not at all about how many people will actually become competitors in eSport, it's about designing a product that attracts viewers to watch. That will generate the subsequent interest of the big sponsors and media and that in turn will generate even more interest to watch the events.
The developer of the actual simulation software will benefit a lot more from the licensing contracts to the big sponsors, media and viewing rights to the events than the money they'll make from actual sales of the simulation software; actual software sales will just be a bonus for the developer for people who dream of actually being able to compete in such events, and as the industry becomes more popular, those sales will naturally increase as time goes by.

This is a totally different type of market to raw game sales, and you can't apply the typical game sales logic to how well or how popular online eSport events will become in the future.

Hawk.
Talking about the enthusiasts I didn't mean the question of obtaining ownership of the object of interest. I meant that watching other people competing in simulators would only be interesting to enthusiasts of the simulators in question. Think about it, an average person watches a GPB feed. What do they see? "Just another game, except with horrendous graphics and sounds..." How would they know what it actually means to drive a sim if they never tried to? And if they never tried to, they will never have any respect for the sport. You can tell them all you want that it's a sim, but they'll just leave looking at you suspecting you have issues... Because it's "just a game". Even if they would give it a try, they'd most likely just shrug it off an move on.

And yes, Max is right. If car sims couldn't achieve this... If iRacing is hardly known outside of certain circles... if even RL MotoGP struggles to achieve popularity (!), how in the world do you expect GPB to suddenly become a sizable attraction for the viewers?

If you ask me, what GPB is really needing now is at least some publicity. And once Piboso is done putting KRP onto Steam, I think that will be the first step in the right direction. eSports? Well... Just show a replay of a typical GPB race to someone you know who is not a simmer, but might be remotely interested in bikes and racing, then ask them if they are interested in watching feeds like this on a regular basis.

I mean, personally I like any idea that helps GPB to achieve more popularity, but we just need to be a little more realistic on this. For me personally GP Bikes is THE sim. A lot of people out there don't even care about what is a sim and why is it a big deal.

passerBy

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 164
    • View Profile
Re: eMotorsports?
« Reply #34 on: May 19, 2017, 05:35:24 PM »
By the way, isn't the eSports broadcasting idea pretty ridiculous anyway? Not everybody can afford joining TT, WSBK or MotoGP, but almost anybody can get themselves a copy of GPB and start competing with other folks. What's the point in watching this as a broadcast when you could race yourself? Sounds like a waste of time and resources.

Hawk

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5881
  • MOD Team: CAWS / GP-Team: Horizon GP #7
    • View Profile
Re: eMotorsports?
« Reply #35 on: May 19, 2017, 05:56:29 PM »
By the way, isn't the eSports broadcasting idea pretty ridiculous anyway? Not everybody can afford joining TT, WSBK or MotoGP, but almost anybody can get themselves a copy of GPB and start competing with other folks. What's the point in watching this as a broadcast when you could race yourself? Sounds like a waste of time and resources.

Well, I totally respect your point of view on that, but you also have to understand that there are people who do enjoy watching eSport events on online live streams too.  :)

All I would say is that like many sports I like to enjoy participating in myself, I also really enjoy watching them on TV too; are you telling me that you don't do the same? Not everyone will be good enough to compete at the top events in live streamed eSport; does this mean they just won't be interested in watching eSport events they enjoy on a lesser basis? Same as I enjoy playing Tennis, but I know I'll never play at Wimbledon but I still avidly watch Wimbledon on TV.
Just because one doesn't actively participate in an event doesn't mean one won't be interested in watching an event on live-stream if your interested in the outcome or support a certain team or rider, surely?

Hawk.

HornetMaX

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5616
    • View Profile
Re: eMotorsports?
« Reply #36 on: May 19, 2017, 07:07:03 PM »
So as far as your concerned, all this vision of online eSport for MotoGP is total rubbish and would never work? Seems to me that is what your basically saying from your above replies?
What I think will fail is your vision of "let's kickstart it from fans, with an indie game developer and a true sim and the masses will come".
The Milestone/Dorna attempt stands better chances of course. Notice they didn't use kickstarter, they didin't involve the fans in the funding and they didn't pick a sim.

The Kickstarter for the laser scanned TT track(not sure what this has to do with MotoGP eSport, but anyway)
But the alternative and probably the best way to get this going, without Kickstarter, would be from what I was suggesting in my post here: http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=4971.msg75694#msg75694
It was here to show only that it's not enough to have a handful of passionate people (like you, me and other on this forum) to conclude "it will surely work".

"Mighty oaks grow from little acorns"
Yeah. And a marathon starts with a single step.
But doesn't mean a random guy can actually run a marathon under 2h10m just because he is motivated and optimistic about it. But if you wanna try, be my guest :)

passerBy

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 164
    • View Profile
Re: eMotorsports?
« Reply #37 on: May 19, 2017, 09:11:25 PM »
By the way, isn't the eSports broadcasting idea pretty ridiculous anyway? Not everybody can afford joining TT, WSBK or MotoGP, but almost anybody can get themselves a copy of GPB and start competing with other folks. What's the point in watching this as a broadcast when you could race yourself? Sounds like a waste of time and resources.
Well, I totally respect your point of view on that, but you also have to understand that there are people who do enjoy watching eSport events on online live streams too.  :)
Which makes me wondering what is it exactly that attracts them... I suppose that it's the element of a show. Maybe also the fact the eSports can be much more relatable to an average viewer. How are you going to achieve that with a bike sim? Just ask yourself. Realistically, how many viewers are going to watch a GP Bikes broadcast? How many will get out of their way, and not just click a curious YouTube link at their leisure, but will actually be waiting for the appointed time and will be watching you, guys, doing laps in GPB, rooting for someone in particular of whom they can only see the nickname.

Of course, the going of your local championships is important for you, because you are the participants. Also, you know each other pretty well (I, myself, was away from the forum for a long time, so many of the people here are new to me, and I have no intention to participate in anything but trackdays, hence "you" as opposed to "us"). But what the audience wants? Would Rossi have so many fans if the only things you could see of him were a nickname and liveries? Ok, maybe also an occasional shot in the studio and an obligatory interview.

If you want audience beyond the people of the special interest, you have to come up with something to appeal to them. And speaking from my experience being a simmer myself for a long time, I can say it's really hard to get people interested in hardcore simming. If at all possible...

Quote
All I would say is that like many sports I like to enjoy participating in myself, I also really enjoy watching them on TV too; are you telling me that you don't do the same?
I used to... But after getting a solid Internet connection I stopped seeing TV as anything more than just an annoyance. And I also stopped caring for following competitions. It's rather a waste to follow other people's lives when you have one of your own. At least, if you don't know them personally.
But at least watching RL stuff can be fun for one reason or for the other. Watching eSports? Well... I remember there was a record of a broadcast of two teams of DCS pilots flying missions against one another. That was the only thing I felt like I could actually be watching live. But then again, it still lacked something... After giving it a thought, if there was a real life competition like that, I'd rather watch that. Same with bikes, I'd rather go back to watching WSBK and MotoGP (not to mention TT).

Quote
Not everyone will be good enough to compete at the top events in live streamed eSport; does this mean they just won't be interested in watching eSport events they enjoy on a lesser basis? Same as I enjoy playing Tennis, but I know I'll never play at Wimbledon but I still avidly watch Wimbledon on TV.
You said that yourself. You don't watch people playing a tennis sim. You enjoy watching Wimbledon on TV. And if you have a choice of different real life motorcycling events, why in the world would you opt to choose watching GP Bikes instead? Of course, let's pretend you don't belong to the forum and have no attachment to the community... What would make you watch GPB over real life motosports?

That said, I think I have an idea what would make me watch it... If the winner would have a chance at a spot in an RL MotoGP team (or at least Moto2). But I have a vested interest :) I want simulators to get rid of their "gaming" past and to be accepted as a full fledged training tool. Games are games, sims are sims.

Quote
Just because one doesn't actively participate in an event doesn't mean one won't be interested in watching an event on live-stream if your interested in the outcome or support a certain team or rider, surely?
For that, the one in question needs to develop a certain attachment to that team or rider first. With eSports and sims in particular, not sure how that is going to happen.

vali_grad

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 78
    • View Profile
Re: eMotorsports?
« Reply #38 on: May 20, 2017, 02:39:47 PM »
personally I can compare the learning curve & experience of gp bikes with fsx
Rather, with DCS :)
FSX' physics is close to nonexistent... And when you go direct steering, it becomes "DCS with helicopters" (which is great, if you ask me)
I brought the Fsx in discussion because of its steep start , and I thought many can relate because even today, 11 years after release you can download the trial version :)
for me DCS (not LockOn series) is easier than FSX, a mega ton of fun after some control/graphics tweak  :)
I hate the helicopters in the game as role/design/versatility (DCS), was hyphed about Gazelle but they messed it up and abandoned it .
new sim in town ? ping me !

loinen

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 43
    • View Profile
Re: eMotorsports?
« Reply #39 on: May 21, 2017, 12:44:12 AM »
Quite disappointing news because of game selected and mode (i would watch full races if they happen). PS only format doesn't make me glad as well but.. finally some big guys pay attention to virtual moto racing and this is great and their choice seems very reasonable: as far as i see PS moto guys are very active at many games, MvA, MXGP, Ride, MotoGP, while on PC i dunno any game which have no problem with finding who to compete except MX Simulator. Hopefully with more attention and promotion of any bike racing game situation in whole will get better.

RaDiCaL

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 69
    • View Profile
Re: eMotorsports?
« Reply #40 on: May 21, 2017, 01:03:25 AM »
GPbikes should be included in the iracing.com Lobby with official Servers and licenses and many Players would notice and finally Play that awesome game.
Its not for the casual Players but iracing isnt too and it is great.
GPbikes is the only bike Simulation and i think many Players are looking for something like that...BUT...not for empty Servers and a few Players sometimes on it.
My two Cents..

-Michael
« Last Edit: May 21, 2017, 01:09:27 AM by RaDiCaL »

passerBy

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 164
    • View Profile
Re: eMotorsports?
« Reply #41 on: May 22, 2017, 03:27:45 AM »
personally I can compare the learning curve & experience of gp bikes with fsx
Rather, with DCS :)
FSX' physics is close to nonexistent... And when you go direct steering, it becomes "DCS with helicopters" (which is great, if you ask me)
I brought the Fsx in discussion because of its steep start , and I thought many can relate because even today, 11 years after release you can download the trial version :)
Not sure what you mean by the steep start... Probably the interactions with ATC?

Quote
for me DCS (not LockOn series) is easier than FSX, a mega ton of fun after some control/graphics tweak  :)
Easier? Only in that the physics involved feels more natural, not just "following the rails" of FSX. And if you want more avionics complexity, try the Viggen or the Warthog.

Quote
I hate the helicopters in the game as role/design/versatility (DCS), was hyphed about Gazelle but they messed it up and abandoned it .
Have you tried the Gazelle yourself? They abandoned it for sure, but it's not in such a bad shape, actually. Still miles better than any other helicopter in any other sim. My personal fav is the Huey, however. That thing is just THE helicopter to have.

PiBoSo

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2243
    • View Profile
Re: eMotorsports?
« Reply #42 on: August 07, 2017, 02:46:15 PM »

The fastest lap of the first MotoGP eSport round:
http://www.motogp.com/en/videos/2017/08/07/challenge-1-best-lap-winners/236001

Almost 6 seconds faster than the pole time  ::)
The bike "dynamics" is painful to watch  :(

Warlock

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1124
    • View Profile
Re: eMotorsports?
« Reply #43 on: August 07, 2017, 03:03:36 PM »
It's just ridiculous.

Hope at silverstone they can watch some real physics in action on onboard view

Sim UK

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 73
  • Wannabe Road Racer
    • View Profile
    • Sim UK
Re: eMotorsports?
« Reply #44 on: August 07, 2017, 04:34:49 PM »
It's just ridiculous.

Hope at silverstone they can watch some real physics in action on onboard view

Oh you know they will !! (as long as I don't have to ride :-) )
Mind the furniture.