Author Topic: Counter steering with FFB controller prototype WIP  (Read 817 times)

poumpouny

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Counter steering with FFB controller prototype WIP
« on: July 27, 2017, 03:09:54 PM »
Hi guys,
i'm working on a serious controller prototype for a counter steering with FFB experience for GPbikes. But to avoid complex engeneering with servo motor etc and keep the cost viable for an eventual commercial plan etc.... i'll be making an "attacheable" system to a Logitech G25/27/29 Wheel for the FFB. of course if the prototype is good enough, i'll be planning to sale it but for now it's just a prototype.

As DD, i'll be using real motorcycle part for handlebar, lever, etc ... and 3D printed for specific parts.

I cannot say yet how the counter steering will work, but it will be a very simple but efficient way to controll gpbikes (no load cell, no complex axes .....)

I'm still on the mechanical engeenering (waiting for my 3D printer to be delivered) for the linear to radial movement translation for potentiometer.

Here i'm now

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/xPCt1UOyZ7E" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/xPCt1UOyZ7E</a>

vini97

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Re: Counter steering with FFB controller prototype WIP
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2017, 03:23:25 PM »
yesss, somebody is finally doing it!!

so this will (theoretically) give proper feedback from the wheels and simulate "gyroscopic steering resistance" at high speed?
es gibt nur ein gas

poumpouny

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Re: Counter steering with FFB controller prototype WIP
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2017, 04:09:59 PM »
for the ffd it will work with your own logotech wheel ffb, the gyro res is much dependant of  gpbikes itself, irl the fastest you go the lighter the bar is, gpbikes seems to do the oposite know with ffb . the controller will have an input for steering and another for leaning. complete analog handlebar controll and foot control.

doubledragoncc

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Re: Counter steering with FFB controller prototype WIP
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2017, 04:37:40 PM »
Best of luck with the project PP

Reminds me of an old system back in 2010 using the G27, found the deadzone at center of Logitaech wheels ruined it though so think about another wheel than the G series maybe

Here my worst video eva of it lol

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/JDhvXkO_vZA" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/JDhvXkO_vZA</a>

Look forward to first pics and videos m8

DD
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poumpouny

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Re: Counter steering with FFB controller prototype WIP
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2017, 05:31:51 PM »
thx DD, i didnt know about logitech center dead zone, is this really from the wheel or from game that are developped for gamepad ? i see you dismounted the wheel to place the handlebar,im aiming not to dismount the wheel but directly plug the handle bar on top of the wheel, for praticity and to not dedicate the wheel for bike game only. the g wheel is i think my only choice if i want ffd wich is a must have for a counter steering controller and the most viable choice if i want to make the commercial step cause of the larger user database they have compared to thrustmaster or fanatec.

doubledragoncc

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Re: Counter steering with FFB controller prototype WIP
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2017, 06:02:16 PM »
It is a Logitech wheel problem and bad for bikes lol

I used it only as a test unit. I did design a clamp on handlebar for ANY wheel system but never bothered doing more with it.

Thrustmaster make better wheel base units and you can get them without a wheel too

DD
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HornetMaX

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Re: Counter steering with FFB controller prototype WIP
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2017, 06:59:29 PM »
yesss, somebody is finally doing it!!

so this will (theoretically) give proper feedback from the wheels and simulate "gyroscopic steering resistance" at high speed?
Dunno why, but bikers seems to have a real fetish for "gyroscopic forces" (that seems to be true for MXB too).

Gyro forces are in GPB/MXB, as it uses an implicit representation (multi-body model, describing the bike "parts" and how they are allowed to move/rotate with respect to each others), unless you tell GPB that your wheel has zero inertia. There's no explicit "gyroscopic code" or "effect", there's nothing a FFB controller could do about that.

the controller will have an input for steering and another for leaning. complete analog handlebar controll and foot control.
By lean input you mean rider lean, right ?
If the steering input is the g27 steering, where do you put the lean input ?

vini97

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Re: Counter steering with FFB controller prototype WIP
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2017, 08:39:11 PM »
yesss, somebody is finally doing it!!

so this will (theoretically) give proper feedback from the wheels and simulate "gyroscopic steering resistance" at high speed?
Dunno why, but bikers seems to have a real fetish for "gyroscopic forces" (that seems to be true for MXB too).

Gyro forces are in GPB/MXB, as it uses an implicit representation (multi-body model, describing the bike "parts" and how they are allowed to move/rotate with respect to each others), unless you tell GPB that your wheel has zero inertia. There's no explicit "gyroscopic code" or "effect", there's nothing a FFB controller could do about that.
I was simply talking about the steering requiring more force the faster you go, Max. I called it "gyroscopic steering resistance" because the gyro forces of the wheels are the cause for the bike resisting your steering inputs.
This effect can only be replicated/simulated/felt/whatever by a controller with a separate steering axis (independet from lean axis) equipped with FFB (actual torque output, not rumble). ...Just like (temporary) misalignment of the front wheel (either due to the front tucking or the rear stepping out).
« Last Edit: July 27, 2017, 09:19:17 PM by vini97 »
es gibt nur ein gas

HornetMaX

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Re: Counter steering with FFB controller prototype WIP
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2017, 10:02:46 PM »
I was simply talking about the steering requiring more force the faster you go, Max. I called it "gyroscopic steering resistance" because the gyro forces of the wheels are the cause for the bike resisting your steering inputs.
This effect can only be replicated/simulated/felt/whatever by a controller with a separate steering axis (independet from lean axis) equipped with FFB (actual torque output, not rumble). ...Just like (temporary) misalignment of the front wheel (either due to the front tucking or the rear stepping out).
Just to be sure, What do you mean with " a controller with a separate steering axis (independet from lean axis)" ?

Because a g27 with DST 1 (torque) does exactly what you want, but there's no lean axis (unless you mean rider lean).

poumpouny

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Re: Counter steering with FFB controller prototype WIP
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2017, 05:33:08 AM »
IRL 80% of the bike lean come from the steering input an 20% from the rider lean, the g wheel will input the Steering and a traking hardware will track rider movement. The ultimate controller would be : a g wheel for steer an edtracker for rider lean and a motion system to lean a frame feedbacking the bike lean. so gp bikes will receive steer and rider lean input from the controller and the send back the resulting bike lean angle into the motion system.
but motion system is too much expensive and i dont have nor the money neither the knowledge to build such a system.
 so it will be a simple fixed frame with a g wheel plus the handle bar and an edtracker attacher to rider head.

To use it you have to counter steer  with handlebar and lean your body like irl using the help of the ffd and the rider leaning to keep rider not falling in dst mode.


HornetMaX

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Re: Counter steering with FFB controller prototype WIP
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2017, 06:45:11 AM »
IRL 80% of the bike lean come from the steering input an 20% from the rider lean
Uh ? Not sure what you mean here (but OK for the edtracker for rider lean).

doubledragoncc

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Re: Counter steering with FFB controller prototype WIP
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2017, 09:26:33 AM »
Starting to feel my designs and ideas are getting used more and more

Patents are pending so please respect that

DD
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poumpouny

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Re: Counter steering with FFB controller prototype WIP
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2017, 09:52:48 AM »
Just order a G29 Wheel to be delivered tommorow, lol lets hope they fixed the dead zone on G29 Wheel i'm super exited to test FFD and finnaly test WRS  :o, this was first step to do if i want to test my prototype on G Wheel of cours i need a GWheel :) hard to convice my wife of the utility to buying a G29 Wheel but an help from my 9 years old son (wich is an huge fan of car racing ) finally bring my wife into reason   ;D

Edit : DD what design ary you talking about ? the way to controll rider lean with ed tracker ? I'don't think it's patentable lol, and with the huge respect i have for you i've been using it since one year now take a look at my thread on my  Diy controller with me being ridiculous with phone on my hand http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=3878.0 Wich is very patentable and witch you could really deposit as soos as possible is your SPSS system, your work on controller is just awesome and i respect you sincerelly, if i wanted to copy your work i could just replicate your MTE unit wich you post all technical picture on this forum, but as you can see, i've redesigned mine inspired by your of course but i didn't copy it i totaly redesigned it !

I'm not pretending to be your concurent, and couldn't even if i want compared to you're background and skill into building controllers. I'm just a geek guy wich love building thing on my garage and share it on internet.

So please don't think i'm copying or pirating your concept.

Poumpouny

doubledragoncc

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Re: Counter steering with FFB controller prototype WIP
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2017, 11:48:11 AM »
just bustin ya balls m8

I dont care if anything I do gets copied it shows people like it lol. I just want as many to enjoy bike games as much as possible but yes my SPSS is my baby lol.

I might be able to help you with some stuff but by PM only ok

DD
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poumpouny

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Re: Counter steering with FFB controller prototype WIP
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2017, 11:57:25 AM »
Thanx DD, i think my 2-3 next day will be playing with G29  :P i'll surelly ask you when i go deep Inside that, thanx for your generosity  :D