Author Topic: Counter steering with FFB controller prototype WIP  (Read 807 times)

doubledragoncc

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Re: Counter steering with FFB controller prototype WIP
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2017, 12:14:01 PM »
Set rotation to 40 degrees to start with and work from there

Have fun

DD
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vini97

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Re: Counter steering with FFB controller prototype WIP
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2017, 01:45:13 PM »
I was simply talking about the steering requiring more force the faster you go, Max. I called it "gyroscopic steering resistance" because the gyro forces of the wheels are the cause for the bike resisting your steering inputs.
This effect can only be replicated/simulated/felt/whatever by a controller with a separate steering axis (independet from lean axis) equipped with FFB (actual torque output, not rumble). ...Just like (temporary) misalignment of the front wheel (either due to the front tucking or the rear stepping out).
Just to be sure, What do you mean with " a controller with a separate steering axis (independet from lean axis)" ?

Because a g27 with DST 1 (torque) does exactly what you want, but there's no lean axis (unless you mean rider lean).
yes, sorry, should've clarified that.
a controller without a bike lean axis would be overall less immersive IMO.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2017, 04:39:57 PM by vini97 »
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poumpouny

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Re: Counter steering with FFB controller prototype WIP
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2017, 07:04:11 AM »
Hi guys,

So i've experienced the G29 Wheel with DST and after almost 1 week of pain and frustration (yes it is very frustrating no being able to even get out of the pit hahahaha) i fanally managed to get a full lap without crashing in victoria.
I have my "Directsteer maxtorque setting to -120 (note the negative value to get real contersteering) and maxtorque 2 to default 0.5. I'm controlling rider lean with my phone on my head (i think DST is unusable without manual rider lean controll).

After the whole week with DST, my admiration and respect to Klax increase exponentially, lol, how the hell can he ride like he does in DST and with just a Gamepad O_o. So i think the concept of DST with FFB and headtracker to controll rider lean is working for a counter steering controller, no need of a 2axis steering hardware(steer and lean). Sure it need lot of practice but once you get the setting you feel good with and get used to it, it becomes natural, like real bike IRL !

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/bnINhTu9B_Q&amp;feature=youtu.be" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/bnINhTu9B_Q&amp;feature=youtu.be</a>

HornetMaX

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Re: Counter steering with FFB controller prototype WIP
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2017, 08:17:40 AM »
Hi guys,

So i've experienced the G29 Wheel with DST and after almost 1 week of pain and frustration (yes it is very frustrating no being able to even get out of the pit hahahaha) i fanally managed to get a full lap without crashing in victoria.
I have my "Directsteer maxtorque setting to -120 (note the negative value to get real contersteering) and maxtorque 2 to default 0.5. I'm controlling rider lean with my phone on my head (i think DST is unusable without manual rider lean controll).

Did you try DSA instead of DST ? On the paper it should be the closest thing to the real deal.

poumpouny

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Re: Counter steering with FFB controller prototype WIP
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2017, 08:28:50 AM »
Hornet max, i tryed DSA but there is 2 major problem with DSA :

First i don't know if it's a bike geometrie problem (i'm Using Manu's 2017 moto 2) but the bike keep woobling all the way, i think it's not a problem but it just work as it is supposed to be (match the Virtual handle bar with my Wheel). With DST, only the torque (force generated by the bike steering and the bike Weight) is sent to your Wheel, not every microscopic angle change in the steering, like DSA does, also with DSA when changing direction quickly, like in  a chicane, you really feel the force you need to apply to the bike to change direction.

Second Throtle doesn't help to keep the bike up when leaning (DST does, as IRL also).

doubledragoncc

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Re: Counter steering with FFB controller prototype WIP
« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2017, 08:37:38 AM »
Great work PP

Just started using EdTracker on the shoulder for body movement and will be trying with another on head for look. EdTracker is so good to setup and use.

DD
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HornetMaX

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Re: Counter steering with FFB controller prototype WIP
« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2017, 09:01:50 AM »
Hornet max, i tryed DSA but there is 2 major problem with DSA :

First i don't know if it's a bike geometrie problem (i'm Using Manu's 2017 moto 2) but the bike keep woobling all the way, i think it's not a problem but it just work as it is supposed to be (match the Virtual handle bar with my Wheel).
Could come from other things too. At speed, the useful steering range is very small, a few degrees. Is this the problem ?

With DST, only the torque (force generated by the bike steering and the bike Weight) is sent to your Wheel, not every microscopic angle change in the steering, like DSA does,
Well, with DST, you send evey microscopic change to the torque.
What's the problem ? DSA too sensitive ?

also with DSA when changing direction quickly, like in  a chicane, you really feel the force you need to apply to the bike to change direction.
You meant DSA or DST ?
Anyway, you should feel the same force with DST and DSA as they have the same FFB.

Second Throtle doesn't help to keep the bike up when leaning (DST does, as IRL also).
Hmm that depends on the bike geometry (and with DSA you'll have to let the wheel a bit loose to allow that).

poumpouny

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Re: Counter steering with FFB controller prototype WIP
« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2017, 09:39:24 AM »
HornetMax :

Quote
Quote from: poumpouny on Today at 08:28:50 AM
Hornet max, i tryed DSA but there is 2 major problem with DSA :

First i don't know if it's a bike geometrie problem (i'm Using Manu's 2017 moto 2) but the bike keep woobling all the way, i think it's not a problem but it just work as it is supposed to be (match the Virtual handle bar with my Wheel).

Could come from other things too. At speed, the useful steering range is very small, a few degrees. Is this the problem ?

The problem is that the Wheel never get stable, even on the Mugello long straigh, it is woobling, you have to counter this all the way, wich does'n happen in DST, in DST the bike only wooble when you hit to high kerb, to much acceleration on corner out, hard braking etc .... tonight, i'll try other bike to be sure it's not the bike

Quote
Quote from: poumpouny on Today at 08:28:50 AM
With DST, only the torque (force generated by the bike steering and the bike Weight) is sent to your Wheel, not every microscopic angle change in the steering, like DSA does,

Well, with DST, you send evey microscopic change to the torque.
What's the problem ? DSA too sensitive

Yes but microscopic torque you don't even notice, but microscopic angle, because of the very small steering angle at high speed, it influence your driving a lot,


Quote from: poumpouny on Today at 08:28:50 AM
also with DSA when changing direction quickly, like in  a chicane, you really feel the force you need to apply to the bike to change direction.

You meant DSA or DST ?
Anyway, you should feel the same force with DST and DSA as they have the same FFB.
Quote

Sorry i mean DST

Quote
Second Throtle doesn't help to keep the bike up when leaning (DST does, as IRL also).

Hmm that depends on the bike geometry (and with DSA you'll have to let the wheel a bit loose to allow that).

in my case whatever acceleration i give, it doesnt affect the bike balance at all !

DD, yes it is really a game changer to controll the rider lean with you own body ! on your CBR frame it could be excellent !


HornetMaX

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Re: Counter steering with FFB controller prototype WIP
« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2017, 01:07:07 PM »
The problem is that the Wheel never get stable, even on the Mugello long straigh, it is woobling, you have to counter this all the way
Does this happen with FFB off ?
If with FFB off it doesn't happen, then it's something for PiBoSo to have a look to (assuming it doesn't come from the bike, of course).

Drz

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Re: Counter steering with FFB controller prototype WIP
« Reply #24 on: October 05, 2017, 03:12:55 PM »
Hello,
I am new on this forum. Before buying the GP bikes game I tried the demo.
I want to built a motorbike rig with real commands as counter steer, clutch, up/down shift, twisted throttle, front and rear brake.
The counter steering is the most important thing that able to feel as real motorbike.

But I have a problem with counter steer and need your help.
The bike is very unballanced when I am playing on "hardcore" mode at low speed. I am not able to drive it, the biker always fall what ever I do.

What could be the problem?
I watched the video below, and I know that it is not easy to drive it at low speed but it seems to me that it is impossible.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcQEJG_0mrs&t=107s

Is there a solution? a setup? or am I missing something?

I am playing with G27 and I added the hardcore mode in the profile.
[hardcore]
directsteer=2
directsteer_maxangle=20

Another question:
What is DSA and DST (sorry if it is a stupid question)

poumpouny

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Re: Counter steering with FFB controller prototype WIP
« Reply #25 on: October 06, 2017, 06:26:46 AM »
Hi DRZ !

when i play in DST/DSA mode, at very low speed, i just center my steering and balance the bike with rider lean (controlled by a DIY headtracker) very difficult to handle the bike in low speed with steering.

DST = Direct Steer with Torque, wich mean, GPB convert your input signal (no matter gamepad, wheel or real torque input) into a torque, then apply it to the virtual handle bar, then handle bar "turn" depending on how much torque you"re applying (on a wheel the torque depend on how far you turn the wheel). then gp bikes calculate the lean angle resulting from the handle bar angle that is resulting the torque.

DSA = Direct Steer with Angle, it just match the virtual handlebar rotation to you're input rotation, then calculate the resulting bike lean from that.

In all case, there is no "leaning limit" you have to find the lean limit of the bike your self, and of course you'll fall if you exceed the lean angle limit of a bike (depend on bike, tyre grip, COG etcc ....)
« Last Edit: October 06, 2017, 06:30:20 AM by poumpouny »

Drz

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Re: Counter steering with FFB controller prototype WIP
« Reply #26 on: October 06, 2017, 03:13:05 PM »
Poumpouny, thank you for your reply.

I have more question :) I will be pleased if you can answer them.

How do you activate the DST or DSA mode? (I am using the demo of GPBikes)
Which one do you use and prefer?
Which one would be better for G27 steering?
Did you try to balance the bike without rider lean input? May be the main reason of my "impossible to ride" issue?

Thank you

poumpouny

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Re: Counter steering with FFB controller prototype WIP
« Reply #27 on: October 09, 2017, 07:01:08 AM »
Here is the link to activate Direct Steer Hardcore mode :

http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=28.0

You'll find the prifile files in : Documents>Piboso>Gpbikes>Username>profile.ini

you put the code in the .inin file then save it, and restart Gpbikes

Concerning DST and DSA, I still didn't choose between the two, in my opinion DSA is more suitable for rapid direction change an is more natural becaus the steering angle match you wheel angle, so i think it is more suitable for wheel. DST in the other side seems to be more precise on small input, and accelleration help you more keep the bike up in DST tha DSA.

Yes i Tryed to balance the bike without rider lean input but the only way i could get out of the pit is use the "low speed" to make the bike straight to the road, and then make a hard acceleration start, wich will be no suitable in race cause you will lose too much time if you fall.