Author Topic: First person simulator server  (Read 2096 times)

HornetMaX

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Re: First person simulator server
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2017, 06:50:10 AM »
if you cannot operate a fully manual clutch because of controller issues(lack of convenient triggers and/or buttons) then you need to use "Shift Help" as an aid
You can just hammer the gears without the clutch. Not realistic but that is neither the player's nor the modder's fault. You will of course be slightly slower than someone who has invested the time to master the manual clutch but that is only fair IMO.

Have to agree with vin on this one. Can't make a lot of fuss about 1st person view / hardcore and then chicken out saying "I'd like shift help cause I can't use manual clutch".


Plus remember that semi-auto gearboxes on modern bikes are an aid too;
Not really. Seamless gearboxes are purely mechanical. Of course the slipper clutch is controlled electronically nowadays but that is an area GP Bikes could use some improvement in anyhow.
Hmm, the seamless gearbox itself is purely mechanical but I'm pretty convinced that a lot goes on electronically too to allow this buttersmooth up and down shifting.

BTW, your comment is interesting: it seems to imply that if something is mechanical, then it's not / it should not considered as a help.

Boerenlater

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Re: First person simulator server
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2017, 08:43:11 AM »
A quickshifter is not cheating is it :P
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Hawk

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Re: First person simulator server
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2017, 10:08:05 AM »
Okay. As devils advocate here: If your going to start talking about using an aid like "Shift Help" as cheating for someone who is using a controller that makes it impractical to be able to use a fully manual clutch, then why not lets go the whole hog and say that any aid is cheating and we all should be using the DST/DSA control in GPB. That's the only realistic form of controlling a bike.... So in effect we are all cheating. The only reason 99.99% of riders never use DSA/DST control is simply down to a lack of a controller type that will allow it to be controlled realistically for the rider. And that is all I'm saying about certain aids being used simply because they have to use one or two aids due to controller issues.
But what the "no-aids" advocates here seem to want, is to alter the playing field to their own benefit? They want no-aids but then again they want to keep the aids that allow them to ride well(ie, the virtual rider).... When you break this debate down, it's just all a little hypocritical don't you think?  :P

All I'm saying is guys, that there are bikes, particularly classic bikes, that unless you have a controller of the likes of DD's controller, then it's almost impossible to control everything manually without one or two aids(as I say, particularly on the classic bikes). With no aids, a classic bike needs for instance throttle blipping to allow for a smooth transition of gear changes and be able to handle the bike well; who can honestly tell me that they use a fully manual clutch and throttle-blipping action when they change gears? I doubt anyone can honestly say they do that. So I just think that until proper controllers are easily available to everyone that some sensible allowances need to be made, particularly for the "Shift Help" option.

BTW: Who here actually knows what "Shift Help" actually does as and aid?".

Hawk.
PS: I wish Piboso would simulate gearbox failures, so that riders who abuse a gearbox(like changing down gears without throttle blipping or clutch operation, especially on the classic bikes) would result in an eventual gearbox failure. I also think the slipper clutch simulation needs tweaking/tuning because I'm pretty sure that doesn't work as it should in reality either?
« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 10:22:48 AM by Hawk »

tchemi

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Re: First person simulator server
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2017, 10:32:19 AM »
Funny, I'm faster in 1st P than in 3rd P. And I think the same apply to a lot of riders.

The idea is good, but the best is to be faster in 1P than other people in 3rdp, no ??

HornetMaX

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Re: First person simulator server
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2017, 10:33:20 AM »
But what the "no-aids" advocates here seem to want, is to alter the playing field to their own benefit? They want no-aids but then again they want to keep the aids that allow them to ride well(ie, the virtual rider).... When you break this debate down, it's just all a little hypocritical don't you think?  :P
One could say the same about you: you want no aids except shift help because you cannot use full manual clutch.

All I'm saying is guys, that there are bikes, particularly classic bikes, that unless you have a controller of the likes of DD's controller, then it's almost impossible to control everything manually without one or two aids(as I say, particularly on the classic bikes). With no aids, a classic bike needs for instance throttle blipping to allow for a smooth transition of gear changes and be able to handle the bike well; who can honestly tell me that they use a fully manual clutch and throttle-blipping action when they change gears? I doubt anyone can honestly say they do that. So I just think that until proper controllers are easily available to everyone that some sensible allowances need to be made, particularly for the "Shift Help" option.

Especially on classic bikes, you should be obliged to use the clutch to shift down (blipping or not is then up to you, on 2 strokes it may be less necessary).
Shifting up, just lifting the throttle a bit should be enough.

Manual shift is not too hard on a joypad: you just have to put the clutch control somewhere and coordinate your fingers.

BTW: Who here actually knows what "Shift Help" actually does as and aid?".
If I recall correctly, it lifts the throttle a bit to allow you to shift up without using the clutch, which is the proper way to shift up for (race) bikes without seamless gearboxes or shifters.

PS: I wish Piboso would simulate gearbox failures, so that riders who abuse a gearbox(like changing down gears without throttle blipping or clutch operation, especially on the classic bikes).
I wish it too, but I don't get your reasoning: if he does that then you will need shift help even more (actually he would probably need to improve shift help to also help shifting down).
So you would like people using no shift help to be punished when they abuse the gearbox while you, with shift help, you will have no problem at all ?

Hawk

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Re: First person simulator server
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2017, 10:34:12 AM »
Funny, I'm faster in 1st P than in 3rd P. And I think the same apply to a lot of riders.

The idea is good, but the best is to be faster in 1P than other people in 3rdp, no ??

I definitely agree with you mate, but what aids do you use?  :)


Napalm Nick

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Re: First person simulator server
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2017, 10:42:36 AM »
At the moment we are restricted to what limitations can be set in the server anyway. More control of which assists can be selected on the server has been asked (many) times before and i like to believe it is on the to-do list tho obviously there are more pressing multiplayer issues higher up that list.

Setting hardcore servers has been done before and guess what....hardly anyone uses them. If a DST only server was even possible it would need calling 'Ghosttown' lol.

Personally i am still waiting for a 1st person only championship that more than about 3 people would take part in. Then we can all be amazed at Warlocks outstanding ability. #Hero  :)
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Stout Johnson

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Re: First person simulator server
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2017, 11:17:30 AM »
Personally i am still waiting for a 1st person only championship that more than about 3 people would take part in.
When PeterV and myself organized the Skeet Skeet onboard only events 'back in the days', there were more than 3 people participating ; ) so I think it could be possible. There are a few riders that can race onboard and 3rd person but choose to ride mainly 3rd person in order to be on equal terms with the 3rd person riders. The good thing about the onboard only events was, that it seemed to minimize the differences between riders, we had pretty similar paces among the riders, which made for more interesting riding imo.
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Hawk

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Re: First person simulator server
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2017, 11:37:29 AM »
@Max: Your misunderstanding me Max. I'm not here to say that aids should or shouldn't be used, and I'm all for a hardcore server being setup for those that want and are able to practice the hardcore element of riding in GPB, I'm all for it 100%!  ;D 8)

What I am saying to those who consider aids in GPB a cheat is that there are riders who due to controller limitations cannot ride in GPB without at least one rider aid, namely the "Shift Help" aid if they are riding the classic bikes that need a manual throttle and clutch action when changing down gears.

BTW: Your wrong partly about "Shift Help" action in GPB: it also operates a clutch action too during a gear change.
Also anyone who downshifts gears on the classic bikes without throttle blipping and a clutch action, even racing bikes, is in great danger of abusing the gearbox and risking a gearbox failure as well as issues with engine braking, etc.
Also, if I'm not mistaken, the modern bikes also have clutch and throttle blip programmed into the electronic action of a gear downshift change in modern racing bikes? The throttle blip is required to help smooth out that downshift transition so that the engine speed doesn't cause issues with engine braking and locking the rear wheel; this also helps greatly in the bikes handling of downshifts so that it doesn't unbalance the bikes handling during that action.

It's true that with shift help a gearbox failure should be unlikely, but if a rider has mastered the manual use of the clutch and throttle then the same is true for that rider too in using a manual operation; if that rider decides to try and gain a speed of operation factor by abusing the gearbox and not properly operating his manual clutch and throttle actions then that's their decision and risk they take.... that is a risk the "Shift Help" users cannot take advantage of. Plus there are many advantages for a rider who can use a manual clutch to control, like controlling the application of power and rear wheel slides, etc, etc that a rider using "Shift Help" alone cannot do.... so any advantages/disadvantages even out in my opinion, though modern riders probably wouldn't know anything about that with relying on computers to operate their modern machines. Lol! Sorry! I just couldn't resist a little dig at the modern riders and their electronic controlled bikes!  ;D ;D

But yeah let's go for it - a hardcore server with no-aids allowed, even no virtual rider aid and see who has really been using no aids at all..... I believe the answer would be no one. So come on guys, let's not be hypocrites.... like it or not, we all use riding aids in GPB. That's all I'm saying as a devils advocate here. No disrespect intended to anyone, but let's all at least be honest about who uses riding aids and who doesn't instead of riders thinking they ride without rider aids when in fact they do use rider aids in GPB, eh. ;D



vini97

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Re: First person simulator server
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2017, 11:41:09 AM »
What I am saying to those who consider aids in GPB a cheat is that there are riders who due to controller limitations cannot ride in GPB without at least one rider aid, namely the "Shift Help" aid if they are riding the classic bikes that need a manual throttle and clutch action when changing down gears.
But they don't require that currently.

edit:
if that rider decides to try and gain a speed of operation factor by abusing the gearbox and not properly operating his manual clutch and throttle actions
You don't gain any speed, though. Shifting on the classic bikes without cutting or blipping the throttle will usually send the rear tyre into a (small) slide and cost you time. That was the reason I started doing it manually in the first place...
« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 11:47:12 AM by vini97 »
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Napalm Nick

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Re: First person simulator server
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2017, 11:43:16 AM »
Personally i am still waiting for a 1st person only championship that more than about 3 people would take part in.
When PeterV and myself organized the Skeet Skeet onboard only events 'back in the days', there were more than 3 people participating ; ) so I think it could be possible. There are a few riders that can race onboard and 3rd person but choose to ride mainly 3rd person in order to be on equal terms with the 3rd person riders. The good thing about the onboard only events was, that it seemed to minimize the differences between riders, we had pretty similar paces among the riders, which made for more interesting riding imo.

When i organised it last year we had about 3 or 4. Admittedly PETER is better looking though.

Exactly the reason i started 3rd person riding after struggling through the M3 championship a long time ago - to get on even terms quicker.

But i still get more enjoyment and thrill riding 1p.
 
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Hawk

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Re: First person simulator server
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2017, 11:45:29 AM »
At the moment we are restricted to what limitations can be set in the server anyway. More control of which assists can be selected on the server has been asked (many) times before and i like to believe it is on the to-do list tho obviously there are more pressing multiplayer issues higher up that list.

Setting hardcore servers has been done before and guess what....hardly anyone uses them. If a DST only server was even possible it would need calling 'Ghosttown' lol.

Personally i am still waiting for a 1st person only championship that more than about 3 people would take part in. Then we can all be amazed at Warlocks outstanding ability. #Hero  :)

+1  ;) 8)

Grooveski

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Re: First person simulator server
« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2017, 12:12:34 PM »
But yeah let's go for it - a hardcore server with no-aids allowed, even no virtual rider aid and see who has really been using no aids at all.....

Now we're talking. 
...he says - seeing the tiniest glimmer of hope.   ;D

Funnily enough my rider control goes all to pot when I go 1st person.  When we done Knockhill it took half a dozen laps before I stopped making the rider errors that I'd already ironed out ages before in 3rd person.  Brain overload!
Once I got more used to the onboard view I could concentrate more on the rider and by the end it was starting to come together but at first is was chaos.
Harder than riding a real bike - that's for sure  ;) - more like patting your head - rubbing your tummy - dancing a jig and whistling dixie...
...while riding a bike.   :P
« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 12:18:45 PM by Grooveski »

Hawk

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Re: First person simulator server
« Reply #28 on: August 22, 2017, 12:14:06 PM »
What I am saying to those who consider aids in GPB a cheat is that there are riders who due to controller limitations cannot ride in GPB without at least one rider aid, namely the "Shift Help" aid if they are riding the classic bikes that need a manual throttle and clutch action when changing down gears.
But they don't require that currently.

True. But as a rider your aim is to ride the bikes in GPB as you would in reality, yes?  :)
Also if you don't ride bikes as they should be rode in reality then as a simulation something should break or you shouldn't be able to ride fast, or you should crash..... Basically something adverse should happen to stifle your performance if you're not riding a bike how it should be ridden.  :)

Do you use a fully manual clutch and throttle-blipping action when downshifting on the Classic bikes? If not then your not riding those bikes as they should be ridden. This is why I'd like to see a gearbox failure for abuse of gearbox downshift changes for the classic bikes, as would happen in reality.
Yes you can currently get away with abusing the gearbox downshifts in the classic category in GPB, but in reality the gearbox would very likely break, besides the fact that your operating the bike in error and something you wouldn't be able to get away with in reality.  :)


Hawk

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Re: First person simulator server
« Reply #29 on: August 22, 2017, 12:27:47 PM »
But yeah let's go for it - a hardcore server with no-aids allowed, even no virtual rider aid and see who has really been using no aids at all.....

Now we're talking. 
...he says - seeing the tiniest glimmer of hope.   ;D

Funnily enough my rider control goes all to pot when I go 1st person.  When we done Knockhill it took half a dozen laps before I stopped making the rider errors that I'd already ironed out ages before in 3rd person.  Brain overload!
Once I got more used to the onboard view I could concentrate more on the rider and by the end it was starting to come together but at first is was chaos.
Harder than riding a real bike - that's for sure  ;) - more like patting your head - rubbing your tummy - dancing a jig and whistling dixie...
...while riding a bike.   :P

Brings back memories of when I was trying 1st person riding for the first time Groove. Lol!  ;D

I'd love for us all to ride in 1st person only, and especially with no aids at all if and when current restrictions with certain controllers allow that to happen.  :)
Currently I use a joystick to control GPB bikes, and I find it impossible to use a fully manual clutch and throttle blip action when changing down through the gears..... Manual control of the rider would just be about possible at the risk of major cramps in my hands due to the way I would have to hold the joystick(OH my! I can see all the dirty jokes coming now! Hehe!).  ;D

But I think GPB Beta 11 is probably the best version so far for anyone who wants to give 1st person riding a try for sure!  ;D 8)