Author Topic: No TC/AW on modern bikes when riding aids are disabled server-side  (Read 480 times)

vini97

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No TC/AW on modern bikes when riding aids are disabled server-side
« on: September 04, 2017, 09:45:54 AM »
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Hawk

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Re: No TC/AW on modern bikes when riding aids are disabled server-side
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2017, 09:49:25 AM »

matty0l215

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Re: No TC/AW on modern bikes when riding aids are disabled server-side
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2017, 10:04:55 AM »
That would surley be down to the bike.

If the bike has a TC or AW or EB settings in the ECU then it will be available reguardless. The real way to do  it would be to only race the bikes without the option (a championship could use a modified bike if needs be)

vini97

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Re: No TC/AW on modern bikes when riding aids are disabled server-side
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2017, 10:11:11 AM »
Yes, at the moment that would be the way to do it, which is why I suggest PiBoSo includes some code that bypasses those bike parameters.
Having two versions of all the modern bikes would be a very ugly solution IMO.
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matty0l215

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Re: No TC/AW on modern bikes when riding aids are disabled server-side
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2017, 10:16:11 AM »
Fair point

Should be easy to implement (just disable ECU inputs)

Napalm Nick

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Re: No TC/AW on modern bikes when riding aids are disabled server-side
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2017, 10:19:09 AM »
Fair point

Should be easy to implement (just disable ECU inputs)

2 different server settings I would suggest. Disabling bike electronics and stopping people using 'Best Line', 'Auto Gears' etc are two very separate things IMO.

And what we discussed before about having each aid individually selectable on the server would still be the best solution. Electronics could be another choice.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 10:27:03 AM by Napalm Nick »
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HornetMaX

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Re: No TC/AW on modern bikes when riding aids are disabled server-side
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2017, 07:09:32 PM »
Don't get it: what's the point in disabling bike electronics on a, let's say, 2017 motogp bike ?!
These bikes come with an ECU : there's no such a thing as "the same bike, but without the ECU".

Rider aids are one thing (brake help, traction help, best line, shift help) but the bike's TC and AW are not rider aids, they are part of the bike.
Even from a sim-integrist point of view it just sounds wrong.

I do get that some may be after the thrill to ride with all/most electronics off, but making it a server option ... no thanks.



vini97

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Re: No TC/AW on modern bikes when riding aids are disabled server-side
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2017, 07:42:27 PM »
Rider aids are one thing (brake help, traction help, best line, shift help) but the bike's TC and AW are not rider aids, they are part of the bike.
What's the difference? Both are fiddling around with player inputs in real-time to keep the bike under control and in doing so, taking away skill from the player.
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PiBoSo

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Re: No TC/AW on modern bikes when riding aids are disabled server-side
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2017, 08:04:50 PM »
Don't get it: what's the point in disabling bike electronics on a, let's say, 2017 motogp bike ?!
These bikes come with an ECU : there's no such a thing as "the same bike, but without the ECU".

Rider aids are one thing (brake help, traction help, best line, shift help) but the bike's TC and AW are not rider aids, they are part of the bike.
Even from a sim-integrist point of view it just sounds wrong.

I do get that some may be after the thrill to ride with all/most electronics off, but making it a server option ... no thanks.

+1

matty0l215

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Re: No TC/AW on modern bikes when riding aids are disabled server-side
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2017, 08:25:15 PM »
Driver aids (In the settings) can apply to all bikes

Bike Aids (in the ECU) are optional and only apply to the bikes that have them.

Personally, If a bike was designed to have TC/ABS/EB/AW etc then let it have it. Like I said, if it was for a championship then just modifiy the bike to suit the needs.

Stout Johnson

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Re: No TC/AW on modern bikes when riding aids are disabled server-side
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2017, 10:07:01 AM »
From a realism point of view I can only second MaX' thoughts. One thing are the rider helps, the other things are bike ECU parameters and it would feel weird to have the bikes altered through server settings.

On the other hand from a general point of view, I can also see where Vin is coming from. The allowance of ECU is sort of part of the rules. And why not let the rules be changed via server settings (e.g. hypothetically in MotoGP ECU could also be banned ... hypothetically). Or let's just assume someone wants to hold an event banning all qualifying tyres for the Murasama because he feels in the qualifying practice there should only be tyres allowed which are practically an option for the race. This is similar to what Dorna did a couple of years ago. In my opinion it could be discussed to allow even alterations which somehow change the ruleset concerning the bikes.

Rider aids are one thing (brake help, traction help, best line, shift help) but the bike's TC and AW are not rider aids, they are part of the bike.
What's the difference? Both are fiddling around with player inputs in real-time to keep the bike under control and in doing so, taking away skill from the player.
Just to make it clear, if there was a realistic simulation of a modern MotoGP bike (and realistic simulation of tyre physics), riding a modern MotoGP bike without any TC competitively (at least for a whole race distance) would not really be an option. It would be a slide-n-slip highsider festival, especially with worn tyres it should not really be possible (unless you ride with wet mapping in dry conditions and take +10s per lap).
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vini97

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Re: No TC/AW on modern bikes when riding aids are disabled server-side
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2017, 10:52:01 AM »
nicely said, stout.

although I think if MotoGP riders could crash as often as they like without any consequences they would (eventually) be able to ride without any aids over a whole race distance at similar pace.
the main function of tc/aw in MotoGP is tyre/fuel management, not compensating for lack of rider skill in regards to finding the limit. after all, they were doing that for years with the 500s. sure, they had ~25% less power but also ~20% less weight, worse suspension, chassis and tyres and a very peaky powerband.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2017, 11:01:58 AM by vini97 »
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Stout Johnson

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Re: No TC/AW on modern bikes when riding aids are disabled server-side
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2017, 12:40:11 PM »
although I think if MotoGP riders could crash as often as they like without any consequences they would (eventually) be able to ride without any aids over a whole race distance at similar pace.
Interesting idea... I would agree that they probably could be similarly fast for up to ~5 laps with fresh tyres. After that I would challenge your statement. I am pretty sure, they would either crash 99% of the time when trying to keep the pace or would have to be considerably slower. You would just eat up your tyre by trying to keep a pace similar to the pace riding with TC.

the main function of tc/aw in MotoGP is tyre/fuel management, not compensating for lack of rider skill in regards to finding the limit. after all, they were doing that for years with the 500s. sure, they had ~25% less power but also ~20% less weight, worse suspension, chassis and tyres and a very peaky powerband.
For tyre and fuel management there are different engine mappings than can be used. The TC itself (traction control) is there and has been developed in order to prevent uncontrollable situations due to excessive tyre slip. And of course it was and per se is still possible to have MotoGP without TC.
We can only guess how difficult it would be. I think both of us have ridden modern 1000cc street bikes. As they are they are scary as shit and riding fast, I would not trust 200hp without TC. And those MotoGP bikes are still a whole different animal, so for us proclaiming to be able to assess whether they are rideable without TC or not is presumptuous. Here is what motogp riders said concerning TC. They are the only ones that can be trusted to answer this question. Unfortunately, there is no unanimous view on that subject. But given the fact that not one of the MotoGP riders is really lobbying for a ban of TC tells me a lot to be honest ; ) talk is cheap...

Edit: Obviously Mr Rossi has more in-depth thoughts on it when really pushed to evaluate on that matter  :P
http://tractioncontrolinmotogp.weebly.com/valentino-rossi.html
« Last Edit: September 05, 2017, 12:47:39 PM by Stout Johnson »
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poumpouny

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Re: No TC/AW on modern bikes when riding aids are disabled server-side
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2017, 01:00:24 PM »
Thx guys, just realized why after 1 years of GP Bikes i'm still not able to make 3 laps without crashing  ;D, DST/moto GP Bikes without TC and AW i'm close to suicide now hahahaha  ;D, switched back to Normal Steering (just to avoid eventual suicide temporarily)and enabled TC and AW on 2017 moto gp bike yesterday and even the Laguna Seca's Corkscrew seems easy  :P

HornetMaX

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Re: No TC/AW on modern bikes when riding aids are disabled server-side
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2017, 08:11:26 PM »
One one point I agree with vin, TC is also used to preserve tyres (in particular, to avoid spinning them too much and hence heating them). It's partly because of TC that we have better tyres now in MotoGP.

On the server option I still don't know: you want to ride a fantasy bike (e.g. a MotoGP without ECU), then you create one in its own category so that on the server only that category can be allowed. I'm sure it would take Manu 10min to do that (and it would take PiBoSo zero minutes as he has nothing to do). Also that would only be needed for races/hotlappin gon servers as for practice you can do it today (pick a bike, set TC = AW = EB = 0 and you have it, no ECU).

P.S.
I routinely use the murasama with TC 0 or 1 and AW 0 or 1.

P.P.S.
Funny to see how Rossi's opinion on TC has evolved between the two interviews.