Author Topic: Rider weight!  (Read 425 times)

HornetMaX

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Re: Rider weight!
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2017, 08:27:00 PM »
Pedrosa 1m58 51kg
Marquez 1m68 59kg
Rossi 1m82 67kg

I do like dani but 8kg extra weight can't explain even a quarter of the gap between him and marquez.
If the problem was simply that, just strap 8 extra kg on dani's ass and the problem would solved. It can't be that.

Also, remember that from some points of view, being lighter gives you an advantage.

Serge Dagher

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Re: Rider weight!
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2017, 04:01:55 AM »
Yes i agree it can't be just his weight,  am thinking it's a combination of weight and a couple of things like his height. ...Marquez is a good 10cm taller and 9kg heavier. My thinking is (and i am no expert; but simply out of my riding experience and what i read), the height gives you advantage of better weight distribution over the bike.
These guys fight at the top for 0.1 of a second, so let's say Marquez has the advantage of 1kg/cm of mass to be distributed over a "longer and wider" area of the bike.

And i think (from observation) that extra weight and height gives Marquez the "freedom" (for lack of better term) to manhandle the bike - and that's maybe part of why they have different riding styles - Dani being smoother than a surgeon! Lol

...maybe next year when they are back at lusail circuit I'll ask dani what's his opinion about adding 10kg ballast! 😆😆😆😆

HornetMaX

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Re: Rider weight!
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2017, 06:31:51 AM »
Yes i agree it can't be just his weight,  am thinking it's a combination of weight and a couple of things like his height. ...Marquez is a good 10cm taller and 9kg heavier. My thinking is (and i am no expert; but simply out of my riding experience and what i read), the height gives you advantage of better weight distribution over the bike.
Maybe (even if I still think it's marginal at best), but that comes at the price of having to accelerate 9 extra kg every time you twist the throttle.

And i think (from observation) that extra weight and height gives Marquez the "freedom" (for lack of better term) to manhandle the bike - and that's maybe part of why they have different riding styles - Dani being smoother than a surgeon! Lol
Despite what people think, these bikes are very agile. I'm not sure you actually need to manhandle them.

...maybe next year when they are back at lusail circuit I'll ask dani what's his opinion about adding 10kg ballast! 😆😆😆😆
I guess a polite "thanks but no thanks" will be the answer.
And I guess if you ask Marc or Vale if they'd like to have some 10kg less on them (like an ultra light suit+helmet+boots) they'd be ready to pay big money for that.

Serge Dagher

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Re: Rider weight!
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2017, 07:20:47 AM »
Yes i agree it can't be just his weight,  am thinking it's a combination of weight and a couple of things like his height. ...Marquez is a good 10cm taller and 9kg heavier. My thinking is (and i am no expert; but simply out of my riding experience and what i read), the height gives you advantage of better weight distribution over the bike.

Quote
Maybe (even if I still think it's marginal at best), but that comes at the price of having to accelerate 9 extra kg every time you twist the throttle.


yes and i think that would be more "felt" accelerating out of a turn.

And i think (from observation) that extra weight and height gives Marquez the "freedom" (for lack of better term) to manhandle the bike - and that's maybe part of why they have different riding styles - Dani being smoother than a surgeon! Lol
Quote
Despite what people think, these bikes are very agile. I'm not sure you actually need to manhandle them.

They are indeed, but (again personal observation - no expert opinion) handling that much horse power (250+) is a lot, and one would be fighting against gyroscopic effect, that's where the higher COG and bigger Mass of Marquez allows him to trash around the bike and pick it up on his knees (sometimes elbows) and basically play with it like a toy (literally), and i think this is why they attribute Marquez with an aggressive riding style, while on the other hand Dani has to be smooth, and again (personal observation with some riding experience - no expert opinion) the smoothness comes handing for him to react at a "lesser resistance rate" from gyroscopic effects. plus the rear of the seat (the almost upright section) is used to hold the rider in place while accelerating hard, Dani can't reach it so he has to smooth his acceleration to "literally stay on the bike".
here is where height comes at a disadvantage - keep your self stable on the bike - also down the straights some riders put their butt slightly higher on that seat upright section creating a "wing" on the back end of the bike forcing the rear suspension down for better grip from rear... again Dani can't do that...

...maybe next year when they are back at lusail circuit I'll ask dani what's his opinion about adding 10kg ballast! 😆😆😆😆
I guess a polite "thanks but no thanks" will be the answer.
And I guess if you ask Marc or Vale if they'd like to have some 10kg less on them (like an ultra light suit+helmet+boots) they'd be ready to pay big money for that.

Vale is on a "severe" diet, he's a ghost of the man he was last year.  ;D
« Last Edit: October 12, 2017, 07:25:52 AM by Serge Dagher »

HornetMaX

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Re: Rider weight!
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2017, 07:32:36 AM »
Vale is on a "severe" diet, he's a ghost of the man he was last year.  ;D
Which proves that Dani, if anything, has an advantage, not a disadvantage :)

Stout Johnson

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Re: Rider weight!
« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2017, 07:45:20 AM »
A bit old, but spot on the discussion: https://motomatters.com/analysis/2011/04/13/number_crunching_how_much_of_a_factor_is.html
It is not 'spot on' as it does not take weather conditions into account. Mind you, I was talking about Dani having problems under certain weather conditions with the recent Michelin tires. So your article does not bear much relevance (in addition to its poor use of statistical methods).

...maybe next year when they are back at lusail circuit I'll ask dani what's his opinion about adding 10kg ballast! 😆😆😆😆
I guess a polite "thanks but no thanks" will be the answer.
And I guess if you ask Marc or Vale if they'd like to have some 10kg less on them (like an ultra light suit+helmet+boots) they'd be ready to pay big money for that.
I totally agree with Marc and Vale, they try to be light for sure. But that is because they are not in danger of hitting 51kg like Pedrosa. ; ) I bet if Pedrosa could gain 10cm and 8kg he would gladly take it. You always have to keep in mind it is not only the weight but also the height that is an advantage in bad weather conditions. Guys like Redding, Rossi and Baz can change the center of gravity of a bike considerably just by sticking their long legs out and moving their upper body a bit to the inside. Pedrosa would need a complete hanging-off to generate similar weight changes. And that is not easy to do in rainy weather conditions.

In case you misunderstood, the argument raised is not that Dani in general is at a disadvantage (it could be argued that he is having an advantage, especially in hot weather). The argument is that in cold and rainy conditions he is struggling to get the tires warm enough (the current Michelin seem to be especially hard to get there in cold conditions).

I found an article where Dani himself relates to the matter.
https://www.motorsport.com/motogp/news/pedrosa-explains-root-cause-of-nightmare-misano-race-951708/
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HornetMaX

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Re: Rider weight!
« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2017, 07:58:07 AM »
@Stout: I may agree with you, but others here seems to think that Dani is at disadvantage in other situations (e.g. braking, fast direction changes etc).

By the way, gaining 10cm is not possible of course, but gaining 8kg is really doable. I guess he could easily do that if that was an advantage *overall*.
But of course if it only brings an advantage in rainy races and a disadvantage in dry ones, the decision is quickly taken.
Isn't that confirmed by the article you linked ? (they have added weight for wet races but definitely not for dry ones).

It is not 'spot on' as it does not take weather conditions into account. Mind you, I was talking about Dani having problems under certain weather conditions with the recent Michelin tires. So your article does not bear much relevance (in addition to its poor use of statistical methods).
Come on man, it was meant to be readable by the average biker :)

Stout Johnson

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Re: Rider weight!
« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2017, 08:33:39 AM »
By the way, gaining 10cm is not possible of course, but gaining 8kg is really doable. I guess he could easily do that if that was an advantage *overall*.
But of course if it only brings an advantage in rainy races and a disadvantage in dry ones, the decision is quickly taken.
Isn't that confirmed by the article you linked ? (they have added weight for wet races but definitely not for dry ones).
To be honest, I wouldn't be too surprised if Dani decided to go on a Donut diet  ;D Just kidding, if he would only gain weight he would probably sacrifice his stamina and conditioning. He would need to be lifting weights heavily in order to gain mass overall and not only around his belly which would not help center-of-gravity-wise (or should I say center-of-gravy-wise :P) And he would still lack the height, so it would only be of marginal benefit anyhow. And as you said, it would also only benefit him for the the few cold/wet races. It would be interesting though to see where he would stand championship-wise without those cold/wet races where he is struggling. He could be more of a danger then, so maybe he will consider one of those bone-stretching operations (http://images.gizmag.com/inline/bone-3.jpg) and then go on steroids to gain weight and we might have another Marquez on our hands :P

Concerning the additional weight experiments, I could not really understand what Pedrosa meant with "to the minimum of the tyre".
“We put weight on the bike today from warm-up to the race, to simulate [that] I was heavier, but you need to go to the minimum of the tyre,” added Pedrosa.

The english of those spanish riders (and of the italian also) is mostly bad, or if he was giving this interview in Spanish then it was poorly translated. Anyhow, it seems as they added the weight to the bike, so that may not be the most useful way.

It is not 'spot on' as it does not take weather conditions into account. Mind you, I was talking about Dani having problems under certain weather conditions with the recent Michelin tires. So your article does not bear much relevance (in addition to its poor use of statistical methods).
Come on man, it was meant to be readable by the average biker :)
Not so sure about that, the whole 'analysis' in that article seems to be really really dilettanteish. I may be overly sensitive in that aspect though (I specialized in statistics during my studies). ;)
« Last Edit: October 12, 2017, 08:43:59 AM by Stout Johnson »
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HornetMaX

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Re: Rider weight!
« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2017, 09:49:20 AM »
Not so sure about that, the whole 'analysis' in that article seems to be really really dilettanteish.
It was for sure. But I'm not sure about the proportion of bikers that can grasp anything more complex than the notion of average :)

Serge Dagher

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Re: Rider weight!
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2017, 10:13:42 AM »
Max my reply is in the Quotes, Stout Johnson you mentioned same points as i did... COG and mass positiong!

i tried to quote back your quotes Max but somehow am not getting it right! excuse my ignorance... noob to forums in general!

HornetMaX

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Re: Rider weight!
« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2017, 10:40:00 AM »
Max my reply is in the Quotes, Stout Johnson you mentioned same points as i did... COG and mass positiong!
I've seen it. But in what I linked (set aside the questionable 'statistical' analysis) there was a fact (back in 2011 but I think it's still valid):

Quote
Marco Simoncelli and Valentino Rossi had submitted an informal proposal to the Safety Commission to examine having a combined minimum weight for both bike and rider in MotoGP, just as there currently is in the 125cc class. Their argument was that lighter riders had an unfair advantage, and that by setting a minimum weight, the larger riders would have a better chance of competing.

That's not me saying it, it comes from a couple of pretty competent chaps :)

So yes, in very specific conditions (wet + weird tyres) a lighter rider may have a disadvantage, but overall ...
And even with that, I don't think heavier riders have an advantage when braking or when "manhandling the bike around".
Most of the seat problems can be solved too: unless you require for Dani to be able to put both feet down while on the bike, of course :)

Serge Dagher

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Re: Rider weight!
« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2017, 10:45:14 AM »
yes totally agree, but keep in mind that they can also play somewhat of a "mind game" to "over exaggerate" things to gain or eliminate the slightest advantage!

Serge Dagher

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Re: Rider weight!
« Reply #27 on: October 12, 2017, 10:48:32 AM »
Max does your nickname mean that you have a honda hornet?

...and back to the suggestion part of this topic, so would it make sense to have an option in the game to choose rider weight and height(with certain limitations to the parameters allowed)?


Serge Dagher

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Re: Rider weight!
« Reply #28 on: October 12, 2017, 10:54:38 AM »

HornetMaX

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Re: Rider weight!
« Reply #29 on: October 12, 2017, 10:56:21 AM »
Max does your nickname mean that you have a honda hornet?

...and back to the suggestion part of this topic, so would it make sense to have an option in the game to choose rider weight and height(with certain limitations to the parameters allowed)?
Has been my first (and second) bike. I'm on a cb1000r at the moment.

Concerning the suggestion: it's probably very easy to implement but (personally) I think it doesn't bring anything worth.

I could eventually vote for something like 3 rider types (a Dani, a Marc and a Cal) with their own weight and their own 3d rider model: I don't think it will make any measurable difference physics-wise, but at least we wouldn't see a grid full of physically identical riders. But of course that is a bit trickier (you'd need 3 3d rider models).