Author Topic: Suggestions and wishlist recap  (Read 33078 times)

Warlock

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Re: Suggestions and wishlist recap
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2014, 12:02:57 AM »
 "respawn off the track an under your responsibility"     \m/  :)

Also respawn at the point you are, not at the point you fell

Only hoping we can 'teach' people to be responsible about entering the track again.


iVolution

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Re: Suggestions and wishlist recap
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2014, 12:13:05 AM »
if you can't make it without falling, just walk the bike.
Yes that's true, but I doubt if anybody is going to try that in a race since everybody will be trying to cut their losses.

That's the very reasons why you enjoy racing with your RTH guys: you know they are educated riders :)
Yes, some of us are  ;) :D

Please don't misunderstand me: I'm arguing the thing here, but if it does not gather enough consensus I will not push it to the wishlist thread.
And I am trying to objectively see what could go wrong by implementing it. I am still very much in favour of your idea, as long as  Piboso makes sure that all the issues have been taken care of. If he thinks that it might be a bit too much work to properly implement it, I think it would be better to leave it just as it is. Although difficult, the best way to prevent respawn issues, is not to fall off in the first place  ;D.

HornetMaX

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Re: Suggestions and wishlist recap
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2014, 12:22:10 AM »
Also respawn at the point you are, not at the point you fell
You mean where the bike stops after sliding ? This has been removed (it was in beta3 and previous betas) because it can cause troubles: if you fall right before a checkpoint and your bike slides after the checkpoint without crossing it, you have will have a penalty or a DNF as you missed a checkpoint.

MaX.

Hawk

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Re: Suggestions and wishlist recap
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2014, 01:01:19 AM »
That's exactly the point I do't get: respawning ON the track is arcady. Not being able to respawn when you want (but only when GPB decides you are allowed to) is arcady.
IRL you respawn (admittedly, when you can) OFF the track and when you want, no ?
No, you've got the point, Max. Respawning is arcady. I probably don't explain myself very well, but my overall thoughts on this matter would be to leave respawn as it is now for practice/test and qualy sessions, but for races, if you fall then your race is over, no respawn. At least then people could practice as much as they want with the respawn to get some track continuity while learning/practicing.
I only argue for other solutions above simply because I know that a radical change now would not be a viable option(People have got too used to the respawn feature in races, arcady as it is)

I would tend to think that "hardcore" sim supporters would be more for "respawn off the track an under your responsibility" than for "respawn on the track and when GPB decides it is OK for you to get back on track 'cause no other rider is around".

Where's the catch ?

Hardcore simmers would surely not want respawn at all? If you fall, then you fall and start back in the garage or pits; this would be hardcore,

In fact I think it was Ian I saw suggest to have an option in the settings to turn on and off the respawn function? Quite a good idea, I think. ;D Though it would also be good for an option to just have respawn in practice and qualy also, or just for practice. Could be done via a menue options list in the settings. Surely this would satisfy everyone about this respawn feature?

HornetMaX

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Re: Suggestions and wishlist recap
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2014, 01:07:25 AM »
OK understood. I personally think that the "fall = pits/DNF" should be an option in GPB.

However I fear that it would be used rarely (which is not a problem at all, as the feature is really easy to implement): you were concerned about noobs getting back on track without being careful and trashing your race, how much concerned you should be about noobs just hitting you and ending your race ? That will happen much more often than the "back on track" situation ...

But again, I'm for the "fall = pits/DNF" option, it makes sense. It's when this option is set to off that I'd like to see the respawn thing changed.

MaX.

Warlock

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Re: Suggestions and wishlist recap
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2014, 01:09:29 AM »
Hardcore simmers would surely not want respawn at all? If you fall, then you fall and start back in the garage or pits; this would be hardcore,

This is hardcore but unreallistic, many times you can go back to the track after a fall, IRL. If the bike is broken or rider injured then you must go to pits.

You mean where the bike stops after sliding ? This has been removed (it was in beta3 and previous betas) because it can cause troubles: if you fall right before a checkpoint and your bike slides after the checkpoint without crossing it, you have will have a penalty or a DNF as you missed a checkpoint.

Yes i know, but if we are talking about realism..... maybe the checkpoint stuff should somehow be fixed or redesigned (i don't know how it works, just a thought)
I dont like how it is now, but i can live with it.

HornetMaX

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Re: Suggestions and wishlist recap
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2014, 01:24:27 AM »
Hardcore simmers would surely not want respawn at all? If you fall, then you fall and start back in the garage or pits; this would be hardcore,

This is hardcore but unreallistic, many times you can go back to the track after a fall, IRL. If the bike is broken or rider injured then you must go to pits.
That could be taken into account if a simplified crash damage model is introduced as suggested by Stout: big crash = to pit, small crash = respawn. Seems easy enough.


Yes i know, but if we are talking about realism..... maybe the checkpoint stuff should somehow be fixed or redesigned (i don't know how it works, just a thought)
I dont like how it is now, but i can live with it.
It could be made smarter: you fall before the checkpoint and the bikes ends up after it --> you're not penalized.
There's a tiny chance people will use that for cheating, but no big deal I think, especially if you respawn off track.

MaX.

Hawk

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Re: Suggestions and wishlist recap
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2014, 01:42:39 AM »
OK understood. I personally think that the "fall = pits/DNF" should be an option in GPB.

However I fear that it would be used rarely (which is not a problem at all, as the feature is really easy to implement): you were concerned about noobs getting back on track without being careful and trashing your race, how much concerned you should be about noobs just hitting you and ending your race ? That will happen much more often than the "back on track" situation ...

But again, I'm for the "fall = pits/DNF" option, it makes sense. It's when this option is set to off that I'd like to see the respawn thing changed.

MaX.

Yes. Noobs hitting you would be a concern, but it would be a case of just being very careful when approaching a inexperienced rider and making sure that you overtake them in a sensible place rather than rushing into a corner together knowing that the inexperienced rider could well take you out simply because of their lack of skill and experience. When people know that there is no respawn feature to rely on, I think you would see a whole new attitude to the racing style of riders, knowing that if they fall then it's race over.
It will help greatly when the rider/bike collision model has been sorted better, so that when you just touch another rider you don't automatically fall off the bike as it is now.

Warlock

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Re: Suggestions and wishlist recap
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2014, 02:28:07 AM »
Yes. Noobs hitting you would be a concern, but it would be a case of just being very careful when approaching a inexperienced rider and making sure that you overtake them in a sensible place rather than rushing into a corner together knowing that the inexperienced rider could well take you out simply because of their lack of skill and experience.

Thats exactly how i already do it, despite the lost distance with the riders ahead of them, i prefer not to crash the noobie, who can feel like he is bothering (bad for get new people to races). Most times they crash themselves due the pressure of a fast rider behind, then i have free room  ;)

nuovaic

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Re: Suggestions and wishlist recap
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2014, 08:46:21 AM »
I would be for respawn as it is in practice - a lot of fun in GP bikes is meeting new riders in a practice session and having an impromptu 'race', where if one goes down most other guys will wait to resume battle.
But in qualifying and race, ideally I would be for realism. That means crash in qualifying = respawn in pits. Crash in race and your out. A year or 2 ago they implemented this rule in BSB - no return to track. Yet I suspect this could take a lot of fun out of it and make every race stressful! Imagine starting a race of noobs, race over at the first corner...
Or at the very least, crash and respawn in pits.
However, until Piboso finishes this sim and we can finally see how difficult completing a race without crashing is, it's going to be hard to decide and probably best left as is.


Warlock

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Re: Suggestions and wishlist recap
« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2014, 09:53:04 AM »
Agree, the system could have levels of realism,

1 supercrash= pit , else respawn
2 big crash=pit,  else respawn
3  crash=pit,  slow corner lowside= resp

HornetMaX

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Re: Suggestions and wishlist recap
« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2014, 11:22:44 AM »
Yes. Noobs hitting you would be a concern, but it would be a case of just being very careful when approaching a inexperienced rider and making sure that you overtake them in a sensible place
Except often it will be them crashing into you trying to overtake you, not the opposite. And in these cases there's not a lot you can do.

However, until Piboso finishes this sim and we can finally see how difficult completing a race without crashing is, it's going to be hard to decide and probably best left as is.

That's a very valid remark. However, if we wait for it to be finished then we're a bit late ;) Anyway, if there's an option, we can keep it switched off if necessary.

So, just to recap what we've all said:
  • Softcore (lol) riders: respawn allowed, eventually improved (off track, no wait or fixed delay wait in races + respawn at bike's point if the checkpoint issue can be solved)
  • Hardcore riders: option  for crash = back to pit (in practice, qualify and warm-up) or DNF (in races). Also, distinguish between "small/big" crashes and allow respawn for small ones (same logic than softcore: off track, no wait/fixed delay)

That looks like just 2 new parameters in a server .ini:
  • respawn type: always, not in races, never
  • big crash threshold: whichever scale (or maybe crash threshold in gs)

Does this summarize it ?

MaX.

PeterV

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Re: Suggestions and wishlist recap
« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2014, 11:44:09 AM »
I think so yes, it doesn't have to be more complicated  ;D

Hawk

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Re: Suggestions and wishlist recap
« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2014, 12:14:33 PM »
Sounds good to me, Max. ;D

Stout Johnson

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Re: Suggestions and wishlist recap
« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2014, 12:17:20 PM »
yeah pretty much MaX. I especially like the idea of bike reset off the track please - it has 2 major advantages:
 - that way instant reset would be no problem as you couldnt obstruct people on track
 - way more realistic (you would lose more time by crashing as irl where you lose time by setting up the bike, restarting dead engine etc...)

But I would like to propose 1 modification to your proposal:

I would like to see  crashes that clearly would result in a "DNF"  (e.g. hitting a wall head-on at high-speed) to be handled that way in GPB - hitting a wall straight-on with high speed and reset just a split-second later and resume the race as if nothing happened is just plain arcade-ish and does not fit the overall sim approach. I feel that this would reach an almost 100% consensus among GPB riders as they are seeking at least a minimal amount of realism (otherwise they would be playing the famous arcade games we all know ;) )

so I would propose it mandatory to have respawn turned off in Race Events (for practice or hotlapping I dont care) - in order to not make it not too hard, just make the impact threshold VERY High... so only crashes that clearly would result in a "DNF" irl will be handled that way in GPB ("DNF" / "Respawn in pits"). If no g-force levels are computed then an impact threshold based on speed of the crash could be used. This would be the standard setting. To satisfy hardcore sim seekers (like me :P) make it optional to allow lower threshold limits for "DNF" / "Respawn in pits".

I strongly recommend this as this would add to the overall sim feeling without leaving anyone behind as only high-speed crashes are excluded to race-on.
What do you guys think?
« Last Edit: January 26, 2014, 12:21:24 PM by Stout Johnson »
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