Author Topic: FIM MotoGP/Moto2/Moto3 2018  (Read 11708 times)

Hawk

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6242
  • MOD Team: CAWS / GP-Team: Horizon GP #7
    • View Profile
Re: FIM MotoGP/Moto2/Moto3 2018
« Reply #240 on: July 09, 2018, 01:32:37 PM »
Totally agree with you Meyer, and also to some extent JohnnoNinja.....

I think throttle control used to be the main talent developed back in the day, also a feel for body weight placement I think was more important back in those GP500 era events and I think it is those talents that have become lazy nowadays simply due to the electronics doing a lot of that sort of work for the modern riders these days....

Having said all that and don't get me wrong with what I've said in previous posts; I totally agree with JohnnoNinja that the modern riders, given the time to and practice to adjust, could no doubt ride one of the old GP500 bikes fast..... What is in question is just how fast/competitive could they eventually ride those bikes in anger(compared to a guy like Rossi who has already proved himself in the GP500 era); have the top modern riders, like MM, the talent to ride as fast as they relatively do with their modern MotoGP bikes with all the aids they have today? Do the modern electronics today give a somewhat false indication of rider talent and how good a modern rider would be compared to if they had to ride a bike purely with the seat of their pants rather than with the aid of electronics? It used to make a tremendous difference between the great riders with bags of talent compared to the also-rans of the GP500 years. This is why we tend to see such close racing throughout the field nowadays instead of just the two or three very talented riders fighting for the front spot... We 've let sponsors, and in particular bike manufacturers, media and profits take too much control of how MotoGP should be run these days instead of keeping the soul of the sport alive. Dorna should be totally ashamed of themselves for letting Motorcycle racing drop to such a disgraceful state in my opinion.  :)

poumpouny

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 294
    • View Profile
Re: FIM MotoGP/Moto2/Moto3 2018
« Reply #241 on: July 09, 2018, 02:20:43 PM »
Hawk > you seems to forget why manufacturer is engaged to moto gp. first for advertising, and second for Research and Developpement. So they need to test electronic thing (and lot other thing) that will be adapted to stock bike they will sell to you next year .....so i don't thing holding non electronic bike does make sens for them and also don't think they are there to make you happy, they are there to make money  ;D.

You also seems to forget that the riding limits have significantly increase since GP 500. More HP, Greater lean Angle, Greater speed, Greater Opponent (rider and Team). So the question is also, Would GP 500 era rider (or the modern rider) be able to control and race with the modern Moto GP bikes (i'm asking if it is either possible without highsiding each corner exit) without the electronics ....

Hawk

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6242
  • MOD Team: CAWS / GP-Team: Horizon GP #7
    • View Profile
Re: FIM MotoGP/Moto2/Moto3 2018
« Reply #242 on: July 09, 2018, 07:54:54 PM »
Hawk > you seems to forget why manufacturer is engaged to moto gp. first for advertising, and second for Research and Developpement. So they need to test electronic thing (and lot other thing) that will be adapted to stock bike they will sell to you next year .....so i don't thing holding non electronic bike does make sens for them and also don't think they are there to make you happy, they are there to make money  ;D.

You also seems to forget that the riding limits have significantly increase since GP 500. More HP, Greater lean Angle, Greater speed, Greater Opponent (rider and Team). So the question is also, Would GP 500 era rider (or the modern rider) be able to control and race with the modern Moto GP bikes (i'm asking if it is either possible without highsiding each corner exit) without the electronics ....

Yep.... Totally agree and understand what your saying there Poumpouny. But that is exactly the manufacturers attitude which Dorna has let dominate motorcycle sports now to the extent where the sport is now a right mess as an actual bonafide sport, ie: a pure marriage between man and machine and the mans ability/talent to control that machine directly.

I would say that modern MotoGP is more or less as bad as F1 was, with all the additional electronic aids, back in the late 80's and 90's when a driver virtually just had to floor the throttle and the computers would decide how much power to apply according to the conditions fed back from all the vehicles sensors so they'd get the best grip whatever they did(That's exaggerated to put it mildly, but within reason of course. Lol).... That to me, like F1 at the time, is not a true sport at all anymore but just, as you say, a medium for selling and making as much money as possible... In other words a twisted consumer gimmick to con riders into buying the latest road-bikes full of electronics and technology they don't need at all to ride a bike safely on the roads, but they certainly con people into thinking that it's an advancement that you absolutely need so that you feel compelled to buy it. Lol.  ;D

Yes the tyre technology has increased so that bikes can lean further in this modern era, and horsepower has increased also but only because the electronics allow a rider to use that extra horsepower effectively. Indeed I agree also that the modern MotoGP bike probably couldn't be rode without the electronic aids but doesn't that itself tell you something is very wrong with the sport to allow that to happen? You don't need that kind of horsepower to race bikes and you certainly don't need that kind of insane horsepower on a road-bike....

Back in the GP500 era the manufacturers had about got to the maximum direct useable rider limit of horsepower output for the 2 stroke GP500 engines..... Rossi even lowered his horsepower on his GP500 bike because he felt he could use that lower horsepower more effectively, and he was correct.

Having said all this, the biggest safety factor on a road-bike is the rider himself.... Any device the manufacturers say makes your riding safer is just quite frankly bull-shit these days; non of their bikes are any safer nowadays than they were 30 years ago in my opinion, but they are definitely more full of gimmicks and gadgets these days they say make your riding better and safer to con riders into buying their bikes.... As you said, it's all about making money.....

There was a time when the performance, look and design of a bike was the most important thing in selling a bike, and yes that is still the case to a great extent, but the addition of electronic controls have in a great way bastardized that format to the extent that now they feel they cannot produce a model without electronic control aids that are just not needed at all on a road bike or any motorcycle.... It's just all very sad to see and sadder, no even tragic, to see manufactures controlling and destroying the very soul of a great sport purely by their own greed and Dorna thinking the more money they can pull into the sport the better so they ignore what is and has happened probably, like many modern MotoGP era fans who are too young to have not experienced anything different, in thinking the sport is better now than it has ever been.... All very sad and tragic for what was once a great sport full of riders of whom you could truly appreciate their skills and heroism.  :(

So I would throw back a question to you or anyone else here: Do you really need all that fancy technology on a road bike that the manufacturers say they need to keep researching technologies in their racing bikes for and what benefit does it have compared to a bike of 20, 30 or even 40 years ago without it, for road and race?

HornetMaX

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5939
    • View Profile
Re: FIM MotoGP/Moto2/Moto3 2018
« Reply #243 on: July 09, 2018, 08:39:55 PM »
Really not entering the discussion (I'm done since long time ago), just to rectify this:
Back in the GP500 era the manufacturers had about got to the maximum direct useable rider limit of horsepower output for the 2 stroke GP500 engines..... Rossi even lowered his horsepower on his GP500 bike because he felt he could use that lower horsepower more effectively, and he was correct.
Honda did it first, way before Rossi even tried a gp500.

Hawk

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6242
  • MOD Team: CAWS / GP-Team: Horizon GP #7
    • View Profile
Re: FIM MotoGP/Moto2/Moto3 2018
« Reply #244 on: July 09, 2018, 11:52:56 PM »
Really not entering the discussion (I'm done since long time ago), just to rectify this:
Back in the GP500 era the manufacturers had about got to the maximum direct useable rider limit of horsepower output for the 2 stroke GP500 engines..... Rossi even lowered his horsepower on his GP500 bike because he felt he could use that lower horsepower more effectively, and he was correct.
Honda did it first, way before Rossi even tried a gp500.

Lol! Love the way some people say they are not going to do or say something, only then to do just that which they say they are not going to do. Nice one Max! Prime example! Haha!  ;D

But anyway, what are you saying Honda did first before Rossi even tried a GP500 bike? I'm interested in what you felt needed rectifying as I didn't mention any time-frame? :)

"Resistance is futile". ;D
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 11:58:25 PM by Hawk »


Hawk

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6242
  • MOD Team: CAWS / GP-Team: Horizon GP #7
    • View Profile
Re: FIM MotoGP/Moto2/Moto3 2018
« Reply #246 on: July 10, 2018, 06:08:00 PM »
https://www.gpone.com/it/2018/07/10/motogp/stoner-rossi-e-come-me-senza-elettronica-sarebbe-il-ndeg1.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=gponedotcom

Very interesting interview with Casey there Davide..... Just goes to show that the riders with real talent(and Casey was the only rider in my opinion ever to come close to Rossi's natural talent) do tell it how it really is when they've no organisation restricting what they say about the current state of MotoGP.


" He(Rossi) is like me(Casey Stoner): if there were not all this electronics to manage the bike, if the power was only controlled by the pilot's wrist, Rossi would still be the number 1 on the track. "


PS: Anyone who knows what a truly natural talent Casey Stoner was, having this opinion on the current state of MotoGP, then I rest my case..... For now.  :P ;D ;D 8)
« Last Edit: July 10, 2018, 06:18:09 PM by Hawk »

uberslug

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 361
    • View Profile
Re: FIM MotoGP/Moto2/Moto3 2018
« Reply #247 on: July 10, 2018, 06:47:59 PM »
https://www.gpone.com/it/2018/07/10/motogp/stoner-rossi-e-come-me-senza-elettronica-sarebbe-il-ndeg1.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=gponedotcom

Very interesting interview with Casey there Davide..... Just goes to show that the riders with real talent(and Casey was the only rider in my opinion ever to come close to Rossi's natural talent) do tell it how it really is when they've no organisation restricting what they say about the current state of MotoGP.


" He(Rossi) is like me(Casey Stoner): if there were not all this electronics to manage the bike, if the power was only controlled by the pilot's wrist, Rossi would still be the number 1 on the track. "


PS: Anyone who knows what a truly natural talent Casey Stoner was, having this opinion on the current state of MotoGP, then I rest my case..... For now.  :P ;D ;D 8)

Isn't he the same person who once told Rossi his ambition outweighed his talent? Perhaps he was just pandering to the Italian Press with the above comment...

Meyer#12

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1099
  • Danish roadracer
    • View Profile
    • Fuld-rulle
Re: FIM MotoGP/Moto2/Moto3 2018
« Reply #248 on: July 10, 2018, 07:01:13 PM »
https://www.gpone.com/it/2018/07/10/motogp/stoner-rossi-e-come-me-senza-elettronica-sarebbe-il-ndeg1.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=gponedotcom

Very interesting interview with Casey there Davide..... Just goes to show that the riders with real talent(and Casey was the only rider in my opinion ever to come close to Rossi's natural talent) do tell it how it really is when they've no organisation restricting what they say about the current state of MotoGP.


" He(Rossi) is like me(Casey Stoner): if there were not all this electronics to manage the bike, if the power was only controlled by the pilot's wrist, Rossi would still be the number 1 on the track. "


PS: Anyone who knows what a truly natural talent Casey Stoner was, having this opinion on the current state of MotoGP, then I rest my case..... For now.  :P ;D ;D 8)

Isn't he the same person who once told Rossi his ambition outweighed his talent? Perhaps he was just pandering to the Italian Press with the above comment...

Casey seem to have two personalities in my opinion, never like him when he was racing, but appreciated his talent and speed, he was an amazing rider! Now he have calmed down and grown up snd his comments is much more mature and respectful, i like him now.

Only one around 2000-2010 to come close to the talent of Rossi of that time. He had a bike control no one else had at the time, the way he used the rear brake to force the bike to turn and the way he forced the bike to “highside” himsel from one side to the other in “s”’s and chicanes was absolutely insane! Nobody could make the ducati go as fast as he could at a time when ducati was a bad handling bike with a crazy fast engine.
Meyer#12

Hawk

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6242
  • MOD Team: CAWS / GP-Team: Horizon GP #7
    • View Profile
Re: FIM MotoGP/Moto2/Moto3 2018
« Reply #249 on: July 10, 2018, 07:38:48 PM »

+1 Meyer.  ;)

@uberslug: Casey said that in the heat of the moment after a clash with Rossi on track..... Nothing to take seriously. Lol!  ;D

uberslug

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 361
    • View Profile
Re: FIM MotoGP/Moto2/Moto3 2018
« Reply #250 on: July 10, 2018, 09:08:01 PM »

+1 Meyer.  ;)

@uberslug: Casey said that in the heat of the moment after a clash with Rossi on track..... Nothing to take seriously. Lol!  ;D

Having watched that particular 'clash' many times over, I pretty much agree with Casey.  ;D

HornetMaX

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5939
    • View Profile
Re: FIM MotoGP/Moto2/Moto3 2018
« Reply #251 on: July 10, 2018, 11:21:31 PM »
But anyway, what are you saying Honda did first before Rossi even tried a GP500 bike? I'm interested in what you felt needed rectifying as I didn't mention any time-frame? :)
You stated that:
Quote
Rossi even lowered his horsepower on his GP500 bike because he felt he could use that lower horsepower more effectively, and he was correct.
Honda did the above (lowering the power to have a more usable bike) way before Rossi did it.
And in both cases I doubt we know if the request/intuition came for the rider (Doohan or Rossi) or from the engineers.

Still not entering a discussion with you, that would be indeed futile.

Cheers.
Feel free to inset how many "haha" you want here and there.

Hawk

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6242
  • MOD Team: CAWS / GP-Team: Horizon GP #7
    • View Profile
Re: FIM MotoGP/Moto2/Moto3 2018
« Reply #252 on: July 11, 2018, 11:54:15 AM »
But anyway, what are you saying Honda did first before Rossi even tried a GP500 bike? I'm interested in what you felt needed rectifying as I didn't mention any time-frame? :)
You stated that:
Quote
Rossi even lowered his horsepower on his GP500 bike because he felt he could use that lower horsepower more effectively, and he was correct.
Honda did the above (lowering the power to have a more usable bike) way before Rossi did it.
And in both cases I doubt we know if the request/intuition came for the rider (Doohan or Rossi) or from the engineers.

Still not entering a discussion with you, that would be indeed futile.

Cheers.
Feel free to inset how many "haha" you want here and there.

You missed the whole point of the discussion Max...... It doesn't matter who or what manufacturer lowered the BHP of their bike for a more manageable performance in that era - I only mentioned Rossi as an example to prove that it was actually done(what do you want me to do? Post a list of all manufacturers and riders that did it?) I didn't mention Rossi out of some sense of fan-worship trying to say that Rossi was the only rider that did that or that Rossi personally lowered the BHP of his bike himself.

The point was that there is no point in creating bikes that have such massive power to weight ratio that they are unmanageable to ride as a racing bike needs to be ridden, ie: under direct rider control; therefore why on earth did the powers that be decide to introduce, or even allow, crazy power to weight ratio's that the rider couldn't manage under direct rider control and then decide to use electronics to counter that unridablility and therefore take away from the rider any true rider talent and control of the bike... Surely direct control is what true sport is all about in this case - the ability of the rider to use what talent they have to "DIRECTLY" control the machine.... In other words a true marriage between man and machine and not a bastardized control system that doesn't show any true rider talent at all in reality in comparison to when electronic control didn't exist on racing bikes.

There you go Max.... Straight to the point with no "Haha" or emoticons... Just for you mate.

Your welcome.

HornetMaX

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5939
    • View Profile
Re: FIM MotoGP/Moto2/Moto3 2018
« Reply #253 on: July 14, 2018, 12:54:57 PM »
Marquez, last minute of quali, turn 3 (the lap that put him in 2nd place, before his last lap for the pole).

I'm not even sure if it's worth reporting this kind of things ... he just does that every freakin' weekend ...