Author Topic: My thoughts on the ArgentinaGP and its consequences.  (Read 613 times)

davidboda46

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My thoughts on the ArgentinaGP and its consequences.
« on: April 13, 2018, 12:59:03 PM »
Total chaos
My thoughts on the #ArgentinaGP and its consequences.
https://mythoughtsabout2wheels.blogspot.se/2018/04/total-chaos.html
#MotoGP #contactandhandbags

It's a long one... maybe some weekend reading?  ;)

Cheers,

/David "Gonzo" Boda #46
"THE EDGE... THERE IS NO HONEST WAY TO EXPLAIN IT BECAUSE THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO REALLY KNOW WHERE IT IS ARE THE ONES WHO HAVE GONE OVER"

Hawk

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Re: My thoughts on the ArgentinaGP and its consequences.
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2018, 01:27:42 PM »
Nice read David.... Totally agree on your thoughts mate.  ;)

Napalm Nick

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Re: My thoughts on the ArgentinaGP and its consequences.
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2018, 01:52:47 PM »
Yes I enjoyed reading that. All fair comments I think, and fresh to hear a journalists personal view in an article, louder than the usual media steam-train-whistle-din.
I cant give you a sure-fire formula for success, but I can give you a formula for failure: try to please everybody all the time.

davidboda46

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Re: My thoughts on the ArgentinaGP and its consequences.
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2018, 03:17:00 PM »
Thanks guys. Nice to hear that you enjoyed the read.

Cheers,

/David
"THE EDGE... THERE IS NO HONEST WAY TO EXPLAIN IT BECAUSE THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO REALLY KNOW WHERE IT IS ARE THE ONES WHO HAVE GONE OVER"

matty0l215

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Re: My thoughts on the ArgentinaGP and its consequences.
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2018, 03:19:02 PM »
Excellent read David!

Spot on with all of your points. :D

speedfr

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Re: My thoughts on the ArgentinaGP and its consequences.
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2018, 05:52:10 PM »
Trying to Google Translate it but it doesn't work on your page, so its only 5000 character by 5000 characters... So, i guess i won't read it.

but i can notice a very good side of your paper and its not something to ignore : Matty and Hawk agreeing for the first time on this Argentina's GP argue !!!
So, just for that part, i would say that your paper is perfectly good !!!

Black flag was my idea too after Rossi colision, one more time not because it was Rossi but because when a kid becomes too wild, he goes to his room...
"An error may become true depending on whether the person who made it was wrong or not." P.DAC.


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Syd

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Re: My thoughts on the ArgentinaGP and its consequences.
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2018, 06:01:35 PM »
Thank you David, a very excellent and enjoyable read!
I also agree, should have been a black flag. I even shouted it when it happened, a shocking moment.

janaucarre

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Re: My thoughts on the ArgentinaGP and its consequences.
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2018, 11:58:57 AM »
Thank you david.
Not finished to read.
About the tyre changing, two things:
First, they all have done one lap before the warmup and the start, so they have been able to know wich tyres they need
Second, in a same case, all the driver should not be autorised to come back at pit and change tyres, they sould start and come to pit after one lap or more. It's my best reflection on this story. Miller took a risk and perhaps be punished if rain was coming, so the other who didn't take risk (all), must be punished because they choose bad.

poumpouny

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Re: My thoughts on the ArgentinaGP and its consequences.
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2018, 01:54:57 PM »
if starting from pit is dangerous why didn't they first let Miller to start and after say 10 sec all other rider got a second start on the grid ? they just stolen Miller what should be he's best race ever. 2 sec of advantage is just so unfair for Miller.

HornetMaX

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Re: My thoughts on the ArgentinaGP and its consequences.
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2018, 08:02:41 PM »
Nice write up, even if I disagree on a few things, that in particular:
Quote
Im not sure. Did he take less care because it was Valentino Rossi ahead of him? Definitely.
He did more or less the same thing with Espargaro and, probably, he would have done the same thing with anybody.
Saying he did it because it was Rossi is just feeding the "football hooligans".

I still don't think MM deserved a black flag (even if, in practice, he got an equivalent penalty).
Given the aftermath, I now thikng it would be better if MM got a black flag, just to sedate all the ones screaming even if I'm sure that if he got a black, they would be asking for 1 race suspension, and if he got a 1 race suspension they will be asking for 2. Or radiation. And lifetime in prison. Plus pubblic tarring & feathering in Mugello. :)

I wouldn't blame race direction to much for the start mess with Miller: to me what is lacking is a proper rule for this kind of situations in the rule book.
As a race director, would you go with a never-tried-before race start procedure like the one you propose ?
And what if a serious crash happens due to that ? The one that takes the decision to go "off the book" may even be legally responsible.

I agree Jack got stuffed, but race start is a touchy thing, no place for experiments. Maybe what poumpony is suggesting, but even that has problems (e.g. the race timing software that is not expecting this at all).
To me the only thing would have been giving Miller a 10sec (or whatever) bonus at the arrival, but this is terribly ugly in terms of racing.

Stout Johnson

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Re: My thoughts on the ArgentinaGP and its consequences.
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2018, 05:07:18 AM »
Nice write up, even if I disagree on a few things, that in particular:
Quote
Im not sure. Did he take less care because it was Valentino Rossi ahead of him? Definitely.
He did more or less the same thing with Espargaro and, probably, he would have done the same thing with anybody.
Overall great read David!

But I agree with MaX on the point with Rossi (well except for that "Hooligan" stuff ... too dramatic wording, but we get used to it  ;) ). You can ask the question whether Marquez might have been extra ruthless with Rossi. But you cannot positively substantiate that he did it. So your "Definitely" should have been a "Possibly" at the most. I think not even Marquez could really answer that question to you. He was just in a sort of a tunnel and trying to get through the pack of riders (who were all considerably slower than him) at the fastest way possible. He did it to an extent that it became very ruthless and dangerous and treated other riders as objects. He might have still thought that he had a chance to win, so he took extra risks maybe to achieve sth extraordinary and still win. And in doing that he obviously lost control over the risk/reward ratio. And he didn't care about other rider's health and race. That alone tells you a lot about the character Marquez is.  :(

But there is no way, you can argue that he took even less care against Rossi. Sure, the impact with Rossi was the most severe. But it could just be a coincidence.

I wouldn't blame race direction to much for the start mess with Miller: to me what is lacking is a proper rule for this kind of situations in the rule book.
The rules concerning this situation was outlined by Janaucarre above. The riders have the sighting lap to finally decide on which tyres they intend to use.
First, they all have done one lap before the warmup and the start, so they have been able to know wich tyres they need
Second, in a same case, all the driver should not be autorised to come back at pit and change tyres, they sould start and come to pit after one lap or more. It's my best reflection on this story. Miller took a risk and perhaps be punished if rain was coming, so the other who didn't take risk (all), must be punished because they choose bad.

As a race director, would you go with a never-tried-before race start procedure like the one you propose ?
The correct procedure according to the rules would have had all riders except for Miller to start from the pit lane. It has been done before on Sachsenring 2014 where almost the whole field started from the pit after changing tyres last second. It was chaotic, yes. But every start is chaotic and it was not signficantly more dangerous than a regular start. Also the pit-lane in Argentina is less narrow than it was on Sachsenring. But the most important thing: It is the correct way according to the rules and it would have been in compliance with what was rules back in 2014 on Sachsenring. Riders need consistency from the race commission. And riders that take a risk and that would have had to deal with the consequences if his strategy would not pay off, should not be defrauded off their advantage if their strategy does pay off.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2018, 05:25:18 AM by Stout Johnson »
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Docfumi

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Re: My thoughts on the ArgentinaGP and its consequences.
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2018, 06:46:14 AM »
My 2 bits. Let us look back to the 2015 Argentine Race where VR46 had the advantage over MM93 and how he went about overtaking slower riders closed a big gap without taking anyone out, granted the circumstances were very different indeed but fair play to VR46 for keeping it clean. I rarely see MM93 keep such a cool head and MM93 has the bike and knows how to do so.  ;)
« Last Edit: April 15, 2018, 06:48:26 AM by Docfumi »
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HornetMaX

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Re: My thoughts on the ArgentinaGP and its consequences.
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2018, 02:14:15 PM »
He might have still thought that he had a chance to win, so he took extra risks maybe to achieve sth extraordinary and still win.
+1, my opinion too. Did he really have a chance ? Hard to say, he being him.
 
I wouldn't blame race direction to much for the start mess with Miller: to me what is lacking is a proper rule for this kind of situations in the rule book.
The correct procedure according to the rules would have had all riders except for Miller to start from the pit lane. It has been done before on Sachsenring 2014 where almost the whole field started from the pit after changing tyres last second. It was chaotic, yes. But every start is chaotic and it was not signficantly more dangerous than a regular start. Also the pit-lane in Argentina is less narrow than it was on Sachsenring. But the most important thing: It is the correct way according to the rules and it would have been in compliance with what was rules back in 2014 on Sachsenring. Riders need consistency from the race commission. And riders that take a risk and that would have had to deal with the consequences if his strategy would not pay off, should not be defrauded off their advantage if their strategy does pay off.
I know, but it is my understanding they didn't like the prospect of redoing a pit-lane mass start.
That's why I'm saying that the fault is in the book: 1-2 riders from pit lane is OK, 20+ not really.
It is also my understanding that the decision was taken after discussion with the teams bosses (guess Miller's team was not in favor though :) ).