Author Topic: For Those Of You...  (Read 789 times)

Hawk

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Re: For Those Of You...
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2018, 12:05:40 PM »
Why do you talk about electronic aids in motorsport ?!

Whether it's electronic aids for road or track bikes, one usually ends up being used by the other, especially track to road aids used for road bike sales and product promotional purposes.  :P

Clearly, this stuff is for road bikes where, no matter how good you are (or you think you are), shit can happen. Otherwise, why are we all wearing an helmet ?
Okay Max... Let me give an example of a situation that a rider, "On the road" could find themselves in:

Your riding your bike fast into an unfamiliar corner and you suddenly realise that you've overcooked your speed into that corner way too much and your bike is heading towards a wall or some other nasty life threatening obstacle, and you know as a rider that if you don't lay the bike down that chances are your going to kill yourself...... This so called safety system would try and keep your bike upright automatically and force you to hit the wall unless you have enough time and the balls to then realise this device isn't going to let you lay your bike down to then decide to jump off the bike(even so, jumping off the bike doesn't have the same effect as laying the bike and yourself down before hitting the obstacle as far as energy absorption is concerned)..... So do you still think this safety device is a good idea in this OR similar situations where a rider needs to lay the bike down to try and avoid more serious injuries?
As far as I'm concerned, I would rather have the choice to make my own decisions during any dangerous incident rather than putting my life in the hands of a cold computer that can't adapt to differing circumstances properly for any given situation the same as a human mind can.

It's always the same with "Do-Gooders" and implementing devices or rules/restrictions in the name of safety..... They are so sure they are doing the right thing that they don't think that what they do can actually end up killing someone rather than saving someone too. :P

Sometimes I really wonder if you Hawk do actually have / have had a bike.

ROFL!! ;D
That quote is not even worth an answer Max. Lol! :)



I agree that safety equipment on bikes and cars has, in general, allowed operators to lessen their skills [in the US fatalities continue to increase as bikes and cars get safer].

From a business perspective, safety equipment allows the stars to keep on drawing in the fee paying spectators when they [the competitors] get a bit exuberant and end up on the ground. I was a bit disappointed when Doohan didn't return to the San Marino GP Paddock at Imola [he retired instead and I had to settle with watching Criville win] after his horrendous crash at Jerez a number of rounds earlier. With the current level of safety equipment Doohan probably would have bounced back in a matter of hours.

Where building safety into riders leathers is concerned, I'm all for it because that doesn't affect the bike rider skill levels and abilities as a rider. Totally agree with you mate. ;)





HornetMaX

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Re: For Those Of You...
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2018, 12:26:35 PM »
Why do you talk about electronic aids in motorsport ?!

Whether it's electronic aids for road or track bikes, one usually ends up being used by the other, especially track to road aids used for road bike sales and product promotional purposes.  :P
This is not track to road. This is road. You made the "track" part out of your immagination.

Clearly, this stuff is for road bikes where, no matter how good you are (or you think you are), shit can happen. Otherwise, why are we all wearing an helmet ?
Okay Max... Let me give an example of a situation that a rider, "On the road" could find themselves in:

Your riding your bike fast into an unfamiliar corner and you suddenly realise that you've overcooked your speed into that corner way too much and your bike is heading towards a wall or some other nasty life threatening obstacle, and you know as a rider that if you don't lay the bike down that chances are your going to kill yourself...... This so called safety system would try and keep your bike upright automatically and force you to hit the wall unless you have enough time and the balls to then realise this device isn't going to let you lay your bike down to then decide to jump off the bike(even so, jumping off the bike doesn't have the same effect as laying the bike and yourself down before hitting the obstacle as far as energy absorption is concerned)..... So do you still think this safety device is a good idea in this OR similar situations where a rider needs to lay the bike down to try and avoid more serious injuries?
Your example has little to do with what is shown.
The situation shown is clearly one a rider can't predict (sudden loss of grip due to surface change).
This kind of stuff cannot be handled by an amazing rider most of the time. An amateur/regular/casual/noob rider is of course down even before he realizes what happened.
It's not a matter of balls, knowledge or whatever you think was great in the past era.

As far as I'm concerned, I would rather have the choice to make my own decisions during any dangerous incident rather than putting my life in the hands of a cold computer that can't adapt to differing circumstances properly for any given situation the same as a human mind can.
As far as I'm concerned, you're free to get killed the way you want. That doesn't mean the others should follow you.

BTW, for what is worth, I had a quick chat with a friend that was there at the presentation of the system: it seems to have some important limitations and drawbacks. But that does not mean the intent is bad.

It's always the same with "Do-Gooders" and implementing devices or rules/restrictions in the name of safety..... They are so sure they are doing the right thing that they don't think that what they do can actually end up killing someone rather than saving someone too. :P
Yeah Hawk, it's all hidden agenda by some obscure organization to take control of our brains and whatnot.

Sometimes I really wonder if you Hawk do actually have / have had a bike.

ROFL!! ;D
That quote is not even worth an answer Max. Lol! :)
Fine, but in that case I will still have the doubt.

Hawk

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Re: For Those Of You...
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2018, 01:09:43 PM »
@Max.... I didn't see hardly any relevance in your answers to what I posted there Max.... Just mostly misunderstood antagonistic unrelated nonsense.... Seems to be getting a habit lately mate? Lol!  ;D

Limitations in that device?? HA! As if anyone with any common sense and a spark of understanding couldn't see that from afar! Haha! Don't ever trust and worse believe in such a device Max; you'd be a fool to do so...... It'll never make the market for sure! It's an idea and invention on par with the Sinclair C5 and just as deluded by it's supporters.  :P :)

HornetMaX

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Re: For Those Of You...
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2018, 04:48:29 PM »
@Max.... I didn't see hardly any relevance in your answers to what I posted there Max.... Just mostly misunderstood antagonistic unrelated nonsense.... Seems to be getting a habit lately mate? Lol!  ;D
Right, cause your post on the other hand was full of insight.

Limitations in that device?? HA! As if anyone with any common sense and a spark of understanding couldn't see that from afar! Haha! Don't ever trust and worse believe in such a device Max; you'd be a fool to do so...... It'll never make the market for sure! It's an idea and invention on par with the Sinclair C5 and just as deluded by it's supporters.  :P :)
In your opinion, nothing ever should make the market.

speedfr

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Re: For Those Of You...
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2018, 05:35:38 PM »
Onthe racing side, we could remains "integrist" and want to ban all the electronics or safety improvment (avoiding highside is a good thing no ?) but two things comes right away after your "discussion".
1. obviously, what runs into races is between our hands few years after, safety, gaz mileage, tcs or other "stupid" things that makes probably less accident or wounded guys even if they are silly on the open road and...
2. if this guy is your son or daughter and ABS or this side-fart saved his life, i'm almost sure you gonna thank Bosch for his ABS or Magneti-Marelli for the TCS included in his/her bike.

I'm an old guy so i've been through 2 stroke and didn't like the coming of 4 strokes, specially on MotoGP etc, but i have to admit that it's better safety and as most of the people, the day i had my bike licence, right after i turned 18 (it's like that in France), i did what i shouldn't have done, i bought a 750 Yam with genesis frame, 5 valve, fabulous... except i almost killed myself two times on highways so i went back to the store,gave back the FZR and took a DTMX 125 instead.
But many guys didn't had my chance to stay alive.
That's why i understand this "progress" and even if it like kills the race a little bit.(ABS is off, TCS is there for highside mostly so maybe the EB is too much but hey, it's a 4 stroke so it naturally brakes a lot more than a 2 stroke).

I don't like the fact that the today racer has "just" the gaz to turn on to the max and the electronics does the rest but that progress, it has less charm, i agree but i guess this is something we can't avoid.
Aren't you guys sad each TT when we count the missing ones after ? TT is great but it's from another time, the time of the Crusades or Gladiators, it's great for us, great for sensation but ask the family of the pilot that didn't came back...

It's like beaching after E-Bike, we're not gonna be able to avoid it, and when you try one (i played with a ZeroMotorcycle for 2 days) it's great sensation despite the engine sound but you still have vibrations to know where your engine is.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2018, 05:37:32 PM by speedfr »
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HornetMaX

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Re: For Those Of You...
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2018, 08:56:56 PM »
That's why i understand this "progress" and even if it like kills the race a little bit.(ABS is off, TCS is there for highside mostly so maybe the EB is too much but hey, it's a 4 stroke so it naturally brakes a lot more than a 2 stroke).
Funny enough, TCS in MotoGP is primarily not a safety feature: it's something that allows to go faster because it avoids the tyre getting too hot by sliding too much (even on straights) any time you open the throttle and unleash the demential power todays bikes have. Take TCS away and they would have to limit the displacement by a lot, or tyres would last 5 laps (or have grip levels of 15 years ago).

Aren't you guys sad each TT when we count the missing ones after ?
I fear the answer it's gonna come from some ...

speedfr

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Re: For Those Of You...
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2018, 09:29:24 PM »
@HornetMax : i don't know for sure what means "funny enough" in here so i'll wait to know before answering deeper.

Anyway, the end of the highsides on GP (and everywhere) came with the traction control following the angle the bike takes (gyroscope+accelerometer). At first TCS was there to avoid burning tyres on re-acceleration but today, if you move that out the MotoGP and Moto3, highsides are back right away. And they are waiting for the Triumph engine to be able to implement it on Moto2.
So i'm sorry for the integrist  ;D but it's a must have today and yes, that allow the riders to put gaz max "without thinking", the electronics wiill do the job. Sad but "modern"...

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BOBR6 84

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Re: For Those Of You...
« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2018, 07:47:13 AM »
BSB  8) no electronic aids.

The TT... the biggest danger is the track itself.. you make a mistake the consequences are usually bad.

In my opinion TC hasnt stopped highsides etc.. better tyre technology, engine power delivery, suspension and everything else is far better than it used to be.. it all helps to make the bike better and faster. Also TCS is adjustable to suit any bike/rider soooo.... it takes nothing away from a talented rider.


HornetMaX

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Re: For Those Of You...
« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2018, 08:10:33 AM »
@HornetMax : i don't know for sure what means "funny enough" in here so i'll wait to know before answering deeper.
Nothing special, I thought it was funny because the TCS is probablt the feature that people (in general, not necessarily you) associoate most with safety and, while this is true for road bikes, in motogp bikes it's something that allows the rider to go faster. In motogp safety was (and likely isn't) the TCS "raison d'etre" . FIrstly, it allows to avoid overheating the tyre (which in turn allow for a better tyre, hence faster laps).

Anyway, the end of the highsides on GP (and everywhere) came with the traction control following the angle the bike takes (gyroscope+accelerometer). At first TCS was there to avoid burning tyres on re-acceleration but today, if you move that out the MotoGP and Moto3, highsides are back right away. And they are waiting for the Triumph engine to be able to implement it on Moto2.
So i'm sorry for the integrist  ;D but it's a must have today and yes, that allow the riders to put gaz max "without thinking", the electronics wiill do the job. Sad but "modern"...
I still see a fair share of highsides, like Crutchlow last saturday, Pedrosa in COTA, ... it is true that there are less than a long time ago but as bobr6 said, this also comes due to other reasons.

davidboda46

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Re: For Those Of You...
« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2018, 01:34:35 PM »

I still see a fair share of highsides, like Crutchlow last saturday, Pedrosa in COTA, ... it is true that there are less than a long time ago but as bobr6 said, this also comes due to other reasons.
[/quote]

The reason for the many highsides at Le Mans is down to the resurfaced track. Very high grip levels, but that comes with the drawback of less progressive loss of the grip. So, basically, Lots of grip, lots of grip, no grip and no warning ahead of it, lots of grip, superman rider... pain...

On greasier tracks the slides, both front and rear, are not so sudden.

Cheers,

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speedfr

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Re: For Those Of You...
« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2018, 02:47:07 PM »
Yep, still too much highsides but they are rares today. Which is great.

@HornetMax : sorry, i didn't want takes and answer things the wrong way, thank you for your reply.

And about TT, i agree it's not a TCS or a anti-wheelie that's gonna make the race safer, the place itself is a dangerous track. Beautiful but dangerous.

Iannone, Dovi and Zarco will probably love the side-fart "loosing the front" saver  ;D
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IronHorse

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Re: For Those Of You...
« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2018, 06:45:32 AM »
Forgive if someone has brought this up, but...


Imagine someone is riding around a corner, and the road (as all roads are) gets a bit bumpy and the gas accidentally goes off which stands the bike up to the surprise of the rider and he goes flying off a cliff only to get impaled on a gothic style spike statue in the garden of a wealthy businessman?

Ok he could have landed anywhere ;D... But i think electronics are not perfect and this system has too much power imo. You are riding with a side rocket waiting to blast and you trust it will know when to fire it? Still cool though
« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 06:47:09 AM by IronHorse »