Author Topic: New here, have a few questions!  (Read 858 times)

woodsracer

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New here, have a few questions!
« on: November 14, 2018, 06:57:37 PM »
This is a very cool simulator, thanks to everyone who has helped/is helping its development. I am a suspension tuning enthusiast, used to race a Ducati 996 a while back and currently race a Daytona 675 in the local series in the southwest USA, so very happy to have found this available to play with. Just a few questions after a few days of playing.

1. I have tested different spring rates and damping values and I am not seeing much of a change on track. I am not consistent with lap times yet so I know this will help a lot as I get better with the controls, but I have read others say they have not seen much of a change either. My question is whether this is dependent on the bike? Do some bikes have their adjustment ranges set so they end up being more effective than others? Can you change the adjustment range (make wider)? Do some adjustments (like rebound damping) just not work for certain bikes? If this is bike dependent, what is the most adjustable bike that you can tell each small change the easiest?

2. Where are the standard bike settings coming from? Like how is the standard fork offset determined (when it is set to 0) when the range is -10 to +10? Where are the default spring rates coming from, a particular rider's race bike? I ask because the standard springs on the Daytona 675R as it comes when you download it seem (to me) to be too stiff in the front and too soft in the rear - from my personal experience and other racers I know who race that bike. What is the "modern" rider's weight? Is there a database or a way to check the bike file to see what all the geometry specs are? For example, for some range given to us of -5mm to +5mm, what is zero, the stock bike's setting? Does it depend on the guys who made each bike or is it more consistent?

3. Mid-Ohio track works good, but the chicane version (which is what I have raced in real life, so is most interesting) isn't working for me. The game crashed a few times and then I copied files over from the standard track that were not in the chicane folder, thinking something was missing as there are less files in chicane folder. Now it loads but is all black. The bike is there but the track/background is not visible.

4. I downloaded the Ducati 916 (road bike) as well as the road tyre file and put it in the folder, but the bike causes game to crash. Is there a specific tire for that bike that I didn't see?

5. How do I monitor tire wear, gas level, etc while on track?

Thanks!

uberslug

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Re: New here, have a few questions!
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2018, 07:17:42 PM »
As far a Number Five goes, if you add the following to your c:\program files (86)\GP Bikes\gpbikes\gpbikes.ini file you will be able to watch tire temperature, tire wear, control positions, etc. while in Training Mode [offline single rider mode].

[debug]
physics=1

If you install the MaxHUD Plug In you will be have a number of metrics on screen.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2018, 07:19:26 PM by uberslug »

matty0l215

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Re: New here, have a few questions!
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2018, 07:21:58 PM »
Firstly, Hello!

And welcome to the commuity :)

To awnser your questions-

1) Each bike has it's own physics parameters and as such can be made to do just about anything. The game is designed as such that it simulates real life (we don't just work from arbitrary numbers, every value does have a real-world equivalent) All of the bikes values should be close to that of the bike it is based on or "close assumption" based on in game testing (i.e. We don't have access to the exact data used by moto GP teams, so the moto gp bikes are most likely based on what the bikes "Should" be right) So Yes, they are completly customisable to almost any extent

2) Like I have said above, in game data should be refrenced from real world sources or close as possible (sometimes real world data just doesn't work in game so we tweek acordingly) also we only currently have access to the bike peramaters, not the riders and havent been told much about him so we don't even know his weight :P

3) Apart from Victoria (Philip Island), All tracks are made by Modders and as such may not be accurate or even working. They may have been made a long time ago and no longer work properly if you mix and match files. Best thing to do is to delete any files you currently have for Mid-Ohio, Re-download them from the Track Database, Put those into your Tracks folder and try again, If that doesn't then load we can look at reasons why.

4)The Ducati 916 uses the duc_916_h106frp.pkz tyres. The best way to currently find the correct tyres for a bike is to find the latest relase on the BikeMOD and download from there if you only want one Bike. Or message me and i can point you in the right direction (I host the BikeMOD Database which has all the currently working bikes and tyres)

5)Get the MaxHUD plugin, that will give you a lot of information. Tyre wear is done the same way as in real life. Ride the bike, go back into the pit :P You can't currently check while on track.

Hope this helps

Matty

Hawk

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Re: New here, have a few questions!
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2018, 07:49:01 PM »
Welcome aboard woodsracer.  ;) 8)

woodsracer

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Re: New here, have a few questions!
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2018, 08:33:04 PM »
Thanks for the replies! I will try all that was suggested.

I don't really understand the response about the bike physics though. If the bike is not responding any differently to rebound damping changes across the whole range, is it possible to modify the code to allow a larger range of adjustment? Is there any info on this? Can I find out specifically what fork offsets are accessible for a particular bike by changing from the low end to high end of adjustment (ie. what is the actual offset value on bike when adjustment is set to zero, not +/- anything?) Any way to find out how much trail you have, fork length, wheelbase, etc? Maybe I'm asking for too much.

Did I understand correctly that the Moto GP bikes are most sensitive to changes in chassis settings?

There is a standard rider you get when you install the game, is his weight unknown?

matty0l215

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Re: New here, have a few questions!
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2018, 08:47:26 PM »
I don't really understand the response about the bike physics though. If the bike is not responding any differently to rebound damping changes across the whole range, is it possible to modify the code to allow a larger range of adjustment? Is there any info on this? Can I find out specifically what fork offsets are accessible for a particular bike by changing from the low end to high end of adjustment (ie. what is the actual offset value on bike when adjustment is set to zero, not +/- anything?) Any way to find out how much trail you have, fork length, wheelbase, etc? Maybe I'm asking for too much.

Ahh sorry, I see what you mean now. Yes, the range can be adjusted but there will be an issue where the bike would no longer work if you went online (incompatibility with other users with the same bike etc).

All of the suspension data for any of the bikes are in the .cfg file (found inside the .pkz file, which is just a .zip file)

The game is still in Beta so a lot of things still are being worked on by Piboso. The changes you make in the garage will be making changes in game but it may not be coming across because of something to do with the bike that is not actually making it seem like it has made any difference.

Did I understand correctly that the Moto GP bikes are most sensitive to changes in chassis settings?

What I meant by the Moto GP is that because we do not have any real world data on the measurements/ranges of the suspension components. The values and ranges in game are best guesses as to what they should be.

There is a standard rider you get when you install the game, is his weight unknown?
There is only one "Rider". There are currently 4 models but they all use the same physics parameters (they all have the same effect on the bike when it comes to physics) but if you are considering a riders weight/height when it comes to setting up a bike like you would in real life, then we do not have that Data

Hope this helps :)

h106frp

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Re: New here, have a few questions!
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2018, 08:50:43 PM »
Welcome woodsracer,

The basic bike geometry is defined using BikeEd - a graphical app available from the main site downloads. offsets/rake/trail/CoG etc   

The bits you can adjust are defined by 'bikename' .cfg in the bike folder (.pkz will need expanding to view files)

In .cfg, rates, damping, brakes, weight, stiffness etc are defined for the ranges available in the garage.

Tyre parameters are in the tyres .cfg file

You can experiment with any bikes physics for off-line use but bikes used on-line must be identical to the bikeMOD or a mis-match occurs.

Some mod bikes have better .cfg definitions than others, some are just copies of the default bikes.

Debug mode displays the effects of changes much more effectively - particularly useful for damping/spring rate curves and sag indications.

Probably worth mentioning that beta14 had a big (mainly negative) impact on the behaviour of bikes developed for beta13 and many bikes have not been updated as modders wait for beta15. Check b14 release thread for more info  :)
« Last Edit: November 14, 2018, 08:57:50 PM by h106frp »

Gibbon

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Re: New here, have a few questions!
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2018, 07:11:43 AM »
Welcome.
I am a suspension tuning enthusiast
Great. It could be very interesting if someday, you can write a post about "Suspension Tuning Basics".
Mostly, how each parameters affects the behaviour of the bike and what your experience taught you.
Thank you.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2018, 07:18:17 AM by Gibbon »

woodsracer

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Re: New here, have a few questions!
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2018, 04:05:02 AM »
Great. It could be very interesting if someday, you can write a post about "Suspension Tuning Basics".
Mostly, how each parameters affects the behaviour of the bike and what your experience taught you.
Thank you.

If this forum is interested in a amateur racer/race bike builder's take on setup I'd be happy to post.
I started writing this document tonight, but there is so much to cover I'm not sure how "basic" to leave it.
I'm currently at about 3 pages in Word. Thanks for the motivation at least! Fun to write about.
How much detail on bike setup is useful on this forum? I will post accordingly!

Gibbon

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Re: New here, have a few questions!
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2018, 07:36:46 AM »
Thank you.
I copy here what has been done by HornetMax back in 2014. ->see http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=431.msg3628#msg3628

Quote from: HornetMax
  • Spring: this is the spring stiffness, i.e. how much force you have to put in order to change the suspension length by a given length. Units are Newton per millimeter (N/mm). In case somebody cares, for the front fork GPB considers that there are two springs (so the total stiffness is the double of the value you set).
  • Bump and Rebound: these are parameters of the damper, in charge of attenuating the oscillations due to the spring. There are no units (in practice), on a real bike you typically have a rotating dial and you count the number of clicks. Bump acts when the suspension is compressed while Rebound acts when the suspension is extended. A high Bump will make the suspension compress slower compared to a low Bump. A high Rebound will make the suspension extend slower compared to a low Rebound.
  • Preload: typically, the spring is compressed by a given amount even when the suspension is fully extended. The Preload allows you to change that amount and can be useful to avoid the suspension hitting its limits when riding (bottoming out, topping out), as the preload effectively changes the sag (i.e. the difference between the fully extended length of the suspension and the length compressed by the weight of the motorcycle and rider).

Front fork also allow to set the Oil level (in millimeters): in the fork you have some oil  and some air. The air is compressible and hence acts as a spring, but as a non-linear one: the more you compress it, the more its stiffness increases (in general, this is labelled as "progressive" behavior, while the opposite is "degressive"). This effect depends on the initial volume of air: more oil (so less air) and the effect will be greater (i.e. the stiffness will increase more when you compress the fork). Typically the impact of this is sensible only for large compression of the fork.

Speaking for myself, I'd like to have an insight in term of riding.
Example:
  • Component: quick description of what it does (see HornetMax post)
  • Motorcycle behaviour: What is going to happen if I increase or decrease the value
  • Warning: What will be the problems if the value I set is wrong -> How it will interact with other components.
  • Guideline: Rough idea on how to set the parameter