How to seriously tarnish a 20yrs fantastic career

[Hawk]

fucking CAS, this is bullshit


now the championship is officially ruined thanks to that little prick.

Whom are you referring to exactly?

I would've thought the word "little" would've gave you a definite clue? 

Hawk.

[Boerenlater]

Anyway this is getting pathetic.
All of you!

Just stop moaning about the incident. Nothing you can do about it. You can browse the internet all day long for other riders' posts like Fonsi Nieto or view frame by frame.
Nothing will change. Rossi got his penalty the end. That's how race control ruled and we got to live with it.
Just hope for a good race Sunday without incidents.

If Vale wins all praise to him, if Jorge wins he is also a deserving champion. Give the titlewinner some respect regardless who you support.
I'm more of a 99 fan but that doesn't mean I don't want to see Vale win. Posting photoshopped pictures of Jorge being gay with Marc isn't mature and I think most people would look down on such behaviour.

Just shut the fuck up about this and enjoy the race. 

[Boerenlater]

fucking CAS, this is bullshit


now the championship is officially ruined thanks to that little prick.

Whom are you referring to exactly?

I would've thought the word "little" would've gave you a definite clue? 

Hawk.

Dani? He is quite small 

[Hawk]

Another weird thing I often hear (and read): Marquez helped Lorenzo (meaning this was his goal).

I don't think Marc wanted to help Jorge: they are not so close (to my knowledge) and the fact they are both from Spain means nothing: Biaggi was italian too ...
To me it's more that March had something against Vale (and vice versa). It's not the same thing.

I agree with you Max..... I think Marquez is just one of those guys that will fight like hell for the best position he can get not matter who is in front of him or the cost involved. His problem is that he just hasn't learned to use his head yet.

Whoever wins will not deserve it. In an ideal world, I'd give the title to Pedrosa: at least he stayed out of all this. But in an ideal world, we wouldn't be commenting all this

MaX.

That I disagree with you about.
I'll probably surprise you by saying that I think both Lorenzo and Rossi deserve to win the championship..... It's just a shame that they have both been put in the position they are now in because of the short sighted ruling of the authorities on the Rossi/Marquez incident. For that my sympathies go to Lorenzo because he's now in a no win situation in that if he wins(quite likely I'd say not withstanding a Rossi miracle) people will say he only won because Rossi was relegated to the back of the start grid and therefore is not the true champion. Bad situation. 

True. In an ideal world we certainly wouldn't have to be commenting on this sort of issue. 

Hawk

[Hawk]

fucking CAS, this is bullshit


now the championship is officially ruined thanks to that little prick.

Whom are you referring to exactly?

I would've thought the word "little" would've gave you a definite clue? 

Hawk.

Dani? He is quite small 

Nooo..... Dani is minute! Hehe 

Hawk.

[HornetMaX]

It's just a shame that they have both been put in the position they are now in because of the short sighted ruling of the authorities on the Rossi/Marquez incident.

Uh, what would have been a proper ruling ?

[Hawk]

It's just a shame that they have both been put in the position they are now in because of the short sighted ruling of the authorities on the Rossi/Marquez incident.

Uh, what would have been a proper ruling ?

Err.... Well what about taking the 3 Pts off Rossi as a penalty, as I think you were referring to in an earlier post? That would've allowed both riders to still battle-out the championship for the last race fair and square, right?
The fact that they cannot now do that is a fact and totally down to the wrong ruling of the authorities.... Taking pts off Rossi would've been a better decision for the sport as it would've still penalized Rossi for the incident but would not have virtually ruined what has been a great and close running championship up till now.

Edit: Maybe that decision was influenced by the mighty Honda Team? Oooow. Now that has poured water into the oil fire! Hehe 

Hawk.

[HornetMaX]

Err.... Well what about taking the 3 Pts off Rossi as a penalty, as I think you were referring to in an earlier post? That would've allowed both riders to still battle-out the championship for the last race fair and square, right?

A bit on the light side in terms of infraction vs penalty ratio (given the admittedly intentional character of what vale did). But it wouldn't have changed a lot:

• The moaning from "fans" would have been just as louder.
• After that penalty, no matter who would have lost the title would have been in a position to moan about it: jorge saying vale deserved a bigger penalty, vale saying he didn't deserve one at all.

The only situation in which the outcome would have been undebatable is: vale gets a DQ in Sepang but still wins the title. Any other situation has room for more or less arguing.

BTW: in the year of marc's 1st title he got a DQ in Phillip Island for a technicality (mandatory pit-stop for bike swap done 1 lap too late). Nobody said that was unfair.
It didn't matter that much (marc still had a comfortable 18pts lead after that), but the rule would have been applied even if he had no lead at all: because it's a rule.
And as some other riders have said: if you intentionally do what vale did, you get a DQ. Unless you're vale. And that's bad.

[Hawk]

Err.... Well what about taking the 3 Pts off Rossi as a penalty, as I think you were referring to in an earlier post? That would've allowed both riders to still battle-out the championship for the last race fair and square, right?

A bit on the light side in terms of infraction vs penalty ratio (given the admittedly intentional character of what vale did). But it wouldn't have changed a lot:

• The moaning from "fans" would have been just as louder.
• After that penalty, no matter who would have lost the title would have been in a position to moan about it: jorge saying vale deserved a bigger penalty, vale saying he didn't deserve one at all.

The only situation in which the outcome would have been undebatable is: vale gets a DQ in Sepang but still wins the title. Any other situation has room for more or less arguing.

BTW: in the year of marc's 1st title he got a DQ in Phillip Island for a technicality (mandatory pit-stop for bike swap done 1 lap too late). Nobody said that was unfair.
It didn't matter that much (marc still had a comfortable 18pts lead after that), but the rule would have been applied even if he had no lead at all: because it's a rule.
And as some other riders have said: if you intentionally do what vale did, you get a DQ. Unless you're vale. And that's bad.

Lol 
I think no matter what anyone says here, it comes down to an individuals point of view on the issues here. So no matter what one says, another will disagree because they are seeing it from a different point of view.
It's a difficult one and reminds me of what politics must be like when you have different cultures represented by their governments all arguing/debating their own points of view based on there cultural standings and ideals..... It's an absolute nightmare to resolve and something that will inevitably be debated and argued about for years to come with no clear common agreement/mandate on these issues.

My point of view is simple: Think about the good of the sport and have penalized Rossi in a way that would've still allowed him to run the last race fair and square for the championships with Lorenzo.
Others point of view seems to be that Rossi deserved a bigger punishment that would've and actually has(with the punishment he has been given) basically given the championship to Lorenzo(barring as I've said before, a miracle from Rossi for the race). That surely isn't good for the sport, and certainly isn't good for Lorenzo and the fans peace of mind should Lorenzo now take the championship because Lorenzo and the fans will always be asking whether Lorenzo could've won it had he had the chance to race Rossi fairly and squarely in the last race. I certainly wouldn't want to be in that situation if I was Lorenzo.

Hawk.

[Napalm Nick]

This thread needs some Spanish member input. Especially if they are a Spanish Rossi fan boy. Get this fire lit!

Come-on Cal!

[Stout Johnson]

I disagree: we've seen many races where a rider can overtake and put some gap in, ending the race with 5sec advantage: you can pass and go away even if you're less than 1sec per lap faster.
The problem is that vale was not faster than marc (quite the contrary probably).

Well I don't want to be stubborn about this, but really still disagree with you on this one. Of course you can only be 1-2 tenth faster and end up with a 5s gap. But normally the guy being a bit slower realizes it and accepts it, because he will be faster in the long run by accepting it. That is, if you are fighting ALL other riders as equal opponents. In the case between Rossi and Marquez, Marquez was pretty much battling only Rossi because he did not want to back down (I assume because of what Rossi said after AUS).

If the speed difference is reasonably low, one rider can almost always force himself in front of another rider, esp. someone with the braking skills like Marquez. All he had to do, was to remain in fighting distance until the next braking zone. He just needed to brake into the corner on the inside and the other one will be forced to get in line behind. If the other one chooses to counter this by riding the "fighting line" (e.g. a line on the inside so that the other one can't pull off his block pass) then he won't be overtaken, but he is losing time due to not being on the fastest line and will not be able to shake off the opponent easily. That is what happened between Rossi and Marquez. The reason why not everybody is doing this at all times is, that a race is not a race between 2 guys only. Even the guy doing the block pass is going slower than he would on his own and he would end up letting guys behind him catch up and might end up losing even more positions. Also, you have to be a very good rider to pull this off on many corners without braking too late on some corner and eventually losing so much time as to not be in fighting distance anymore.

But don't get me wrong, I don't wanna say Rossi was clearly faster than Marquez. I think they were not much apart in terms of lap times at that moment. Rossi was being a bit faster, it is being proven by the fact that Rossi was well behind Marquez in lap 1, but Rossi managed to close in on him, so he had to be faster by some margin at that point.

The natural behaviour of a rider in Marquez' position would have been to establish some reasonable lap times, let the tyres get optimally warm (Nakamoto acknowledged that Marquez was having troubles in early laps because of his tyres not being optimally warm), he should have tried to go with the pace of Rossi until his tyres are optimally working, maybe even let Rossi 'pull' him to Pedrosa and Lorenzo (if Rossi had the pace) and then overtake whoever he wants. He might even have had a shot at winning the race in the latter stages of the race.

That is how a rider reacts if he is looking for his own personal best result and he is fighting every rider equally. Just remember how Marquez did a wonderful strategic race at Misano. He pretty much sorted the driving style of Lorenzo and Rossi in the rain, he let them take the risk of driving in front. At one point it, he seemingly even let Rossi pass on purpose just to be able to observe him from behind and manage his tyres. And he did everything right in that race, being able to manage tyres and make the perfect stop strategy for swapping bikes. He won easily. He is well capable of running a strategic race (there are other examples as well). He just picked this situtation with Rossi to fight for the biggest balls in the paddock. A bit dirty thing to do to someone who is fighting for the championship, but again: Rossi pretty much has to blame himself after his comments, for that psychologic trick backfired on him badly.

[Abigor]

Well then Lorenzo dont deserve it too.....big help from Márquez in last race!!!......i will love to see Andre Lennone do the samme shit to Lorenzo this weekend!!!

Who?  Andrea Iannone!

Ohhh yeaa THANKS 

[HornetMaX]

Well I don't want to be stubborn about this, but really still disagree with you on this one. Of course you can only be 1-2 tenth faster and end up with a 5s gap. But normally the guy being a bit slower realizes it and accepts it, because he will be faster in the long run by accepting it.

There're only special situations in which this is true. I'm really not sure it was the case in Sepang. Fastest race laps in Sepang:

1. Jorge Lorenzo 2m 0.606s (lap 2)
2. Dani Pedrosa 2m 0.795s (lap 2)
3. Marc Marquez 2m 0.818s (lap 2)
4. Valentino Rossi 2m 1.127s (lap 4)

[Hawk]

Well I don't want to be stubborn about this, but really still disagree with you on this one. Of course you can only be 1-2 tenth faster and end up with a 5s gap. But normally the guy being a bit slower realizes it and accepts it, because he will be faster in the long run by accepting it.

There're only special situations in which this is true. I'm really not sure it was the case in Sepang. Fastest race laps in Sepang:

1. Jorge Lorenzo 2m 0.606s (lap 2)
2. Dani Pedrosa 2m 0.795s (lap 2)
3. Marc Marquez 2m 0.818s (lap 2)
4. Valentino Rossi 2m 1.127s (lap 4)

Fastest lap times don't mean a thing when your trying to build a gap....... It's the rider who can put in consistently faster lap times over the race distance. Something Rossi is very good at, hence the poor qualifying and bad starts yet good results on race day in comparision.

Hawk.

[Stout Johnson]

Err.... Well what about taking the 3 Pts off Rossi as a penalty, as I think you were referring to in an earlier post? That would've allowed both riders to still battle-out the championship for the last race fair and square, right?

A bit on the light side in terms of infraction vs penalty ratio (given the admittedly intentional character of what vale did).

As I said earlier: Rossi was penalized with 3 penalty points for his behaviour in Sepang. If Rossi would not have already received 1 penalty point for his obstruction in Qualifying in Misano, then he would not have been demoted to last place on the grid in Valencia. Would you also have said then that it would have been on the "light side in terms of infraction vs penalty ratio"?

Well I don't want to be stubborn about this, but really still disagree with you on this one. Of course you can only be 1-2 tenth faster and end up with a 5s gap. But normally the guy being a bit slower realizes it and accepts it, because he will be faster in the long run by accepting it.

There're only special situations in which this is true.

Whatever you say MaX...

Fastest lap times don't mean a thing when your trying to build a gap....... It's the rider who can put in consistently faster lap times over the race distance. Something Rossi is very good at, hence the poor qualifying and bad starts yet good results on race day in comparision.

Totally agree, I think MaX is well aware of that too.

It's just a shame that they have both been put in the position they are now in because of the short sighted ruling of the authorities on the Rossi/Marquez incident.

Uh, what would have been a proper ruling ?

A proper ruling imo would have been to subtract 3 race points from Rossi for gaining 3rd by running Marquez off. Given the circumstances (the very close battle in the championship) every point is very valuable and that penalty itself is hard enough imo. Of course they should have publicly condemned the behaviour in an official statement etc etc, maybe even threaten to hang a harsh penalty in case Rossi ever does sth like this again. But demoting him to back of grid kind of ruins this whole season because the championship is not being fought out on track. The ruling as it is, is acceptable, but it would have been a bit nicer to have less consequences for the championship battle imo.