Through hours of testing I have found how to basically completely reduce any front end wobble on 5B, and also simulate
corner exit throttle steering by reversing the effect of throttle to the suspension. Currently application of throttle
widens your line (suspension extends instead of contract) meaning you cant use the friction of the tyre to grap and push you around which is what you do in real life.
The only problem is -> CORES CRASHING as a result sometimes if you crash the bike
This is partly why I am hesitating to release my TZ750 because my physics are completely unique and feel very nice but the game crashes due to CORE fail.
FML
I 'll be pleasant to beta test you're physic cause i haven't so much core...
Have played a little too with the physic and reduced the wobble a little (not 80%)
I think you have seen this but in case of Mr Piboso give good directions here:
http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=1313.msg17104#msg17104 (http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=1313.msg17104#msg17104)
Quote from: rodney007 on July 19, 2014, 10:56:40 PM
Through hours of testing I have found how to basically completely reduce any front end wobble on 5B, and also simulate
corner exit throttle steering by reversing the effect of throttle to the suspension. Currently application of throttle
widens your line (suspension extends instead of contract) meaning you cant use the friction of the tyre to grap and push you around which is what you do in real life.
The only problem is -> CORES CRASHING as a result sometimes if you crash the bike
This is partly why I am hesitating to release my TZ750 because my physics are completely unique and feel very nice but the game crashes due to CORE fail.
FML
hey rodney..
do you mean the rear shock extends instead of compressing when accelerating?
if that is what you mean.. that explains what i see when i watch a replay.. if i use rear facing camera you can see the gap between the tail unit and the tyre increase when accelerating but the shock should compress and the gap should decrease..
right??
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on July 19, 2014, 11:25:42 PM
Quote from: rodney007 on July 19, 2014, 10:56:40 PM
Through hours of testing I have found how to basically completely reduce any front end wobble on 5B, and also simulate
corner exit throttle steering by reversing the effect of throttle to the suspension. Currently application of throttle
widens your line (suspension extends instead of contract) meaning you cant use the friction of the tyre to grap and push you around which is what you do in real life.
The only problem is -> CORES CRASHING as a result sometimes if you crash the bike
This is partly why I am hesitating to release my TZ750 because my physics are completely unique and feel very nice but the game crashes due to CORE fail.
FML
hey rodney..
do you mean the rear shock extends instead of compressing when accelerating?
if that is what you mean.. that explains what i see when i watch a replay.. if i use rear facing camera you can see the gap between the tail unit and the tyre increase when accelerating but the shock should compress and the gap should decrease..
right??
is not so simple, depends on the geometry of the bike (forks, chain pull, etc..), some bikes extend some bikes compress. However, sorry but i don't think that Mr.Rodney has to solve the problems on the front but Piboso in the next beta, and as we read already knows how to work.
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on July 19, 2014, 11:25:42 PM
Quote from: rodney007 on July 19, 2014, 10:56:40 PM
Through hours of testing I have found how to basically completely reduce any front end wobble on 5B, and also simulate
corner exit throttle steering by reversing the effect of throttle to the suspension. Currently application of throttle
widens your line (suspension extends instead of contract) meaning you cant use the friction of the tyre to grap and push you around which is what you do in real life.
The only problem is -> CORES CRASHING as a result sometimes if you crash the bike
This is partly why I am hesitating to release my TZ750 because my physics are completely unique and feel very nice but the game crashes due to CORE fail.
FML
hey rodney..
do you mean the rear shock extends instead of compressing when accelerating?
if that is what you mean.. that explains what i see when i watch a replay.. if i use rear facing camera you can see the gap between the tail unit and the tyre increase when accelerating but the shock should compress and the gap should decrease..
right??
Yes, the gap opens rather than squeeze and your exit line widens meaning you have to wait until you are deeper into the corner, in real life (i race bikes) you get on the throttle as early as possible and it smashes the tire into the ground and allows you to go around the corner quick and keep a tighter line. This had always frustrated me because the rear tyre in all GP bikes versions was never being used enough on exit.
Now you see and instant compression and slight line tightening - as a result tires wear faster but feels very rewarding gassing out of corners. I have had another racer in GP bikes test it and he said it felt amazing.
see here how the throttle changes the corner line:
http://youtu.be/AiAR-NaOcto
See at: 1:33, 1:52 are good examples.
Can you make a little video on gpbikes with you're physics?
I agree with what FastFreddie said: in general, it depends. There's a chapter in the book "Motorcycle Dynamics" (Cossalter) that explains this in detail (and it's not hard to understand).
On race bikes (at least very powerful ones) I even think that most of the time the rear extends when opening the throttle as if it extends it means it counters the tendency to wheelie (while if it compress it will help it).
Last remark: it is already possible in GPB to alter the swingarm pivot position (I mean editing the bike.cfg file). This will change the bike's squat ratio and hence the fact the the rear compress or extends when accelerating. It's even available in the garage, but for the standard bikes (125, 500, 990) changing it has no effect as the min and max swingarm pivot position are set to the same point (so whichever value you set in the garage 0,1,2 will lead to the same swingarm joint position).
If you want to play with it, allow the swingarm pivot position to vary vertically: you should see an effect on the rear suspension (i.e. compressing/extending when accelerating) and on the tendency to wheelie. Higher swingarm pivot = less tendency to squat. Chnages should be of the order of a few mm.
If you google "motorbike squat ratio" you can find a lot of easy explanations on the web, e.g.:
http://www.insidemotorcycles.com/component/k2/item/1576-trevitt%E2%80%99s-blog-anti-squat-and-thrust.html?tmpl=component&print=1 (http://www.insidemotorcycles.com/component/k2/item/1576-trevitt%E2%80%99s-blog-anti-squat-and-thrust.html?tmpl=component&print=1)
http://www.sportrider.com/more-fun-geometry/?image=0 (http://www.sportrider.com/more-fun-geometry/?image=0)
In the 1st link, there's an incredible comment at the end:
QuoteAnti-squat is so important on a powerful bike that teams at the World Superbike and MotoGP level will change primary gearing inside the engine rather than final gearing for fear of upsetting that delicate balance.
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on July 20, 2014, 08:12:42 AM
I agree with what FastFreddie said: in general, it depends. There's a chapter in the book "Motorcycle Dynamics" (Cossalter) that explains this in detail (and it's not hard to understand).
On race bikes (at least very powerful ones) I even think that most of the time the rear extends when opening the throttle as if it extends it means it counters the tendency to wheelie (while if it compress it will help it).
Last remark: it is already possible in GPB to alter the swingarm pivot position (I mean editing the bike.cfg file). This will change the bike's squat ratio and hence the fact the the rear compress or extends when accelerating. It's even available in the garage, but for the standard bikes (125, 500, 990) changing it has no effect as the min and max swingarm pivot position are set to the same point (so whichever value you set in the garage 0,1,2 will lead to the same swingarm joint position).
If you want to play with it, allow the swingarm pivot position to vary vertically: you should see an effect on the rear suspension (i.e. compressing/extending when accelerating) and on the tendency to wheelie. Higher swingarm pivot = less tendency to squat. Chnages should be of the order of a few mm.
If you google "motorbike squat ratio" you can find a lot of easy explanations on the web, e.g.:
http://www.insidemotorcycles.com/component/k2/item/1576-trevitt%E2%80%99s-blog-anti-squat-and-thrust.html?tmpl=component&print=1 (http://www.insidemotorcycles.com/component/k2/item/1576-trevitt%E2%80%99s-blog-anti-squat-and-thrust.html?tmpl=component&print=1)
http://www.sportrider.com/more-fun-geometry/?image=0 (http://www.sportrider.com/more-fun-geometry/?image=0)
In the 1st link, there's an incredible comment at the end:
QuoteAnti-squat is so important on a powerful bike that teams at the World Superbike and MotoGP level will change primary gearing inside the engine rather than final gearing for fear of upsetting that delicate balance.
MaX.
Sorry to burst your bubble but the squat that I'm talking about (in GPB) has nothing to do with adjusting the suspension - its in the tire file.
Quote from: rodney007 on July 20, 2014, 08:55:06 AM
Sorry to burst your bubble but the squat that I'm talking about (in GPB) has nothing to do with adjusting the suspension - its in the tire file.
The you didn't explain yourself correctly:
Quote from: rodney007 on July 19, 2014, 10:56:40 PM
Through hours of testing I have found how to basically completely reduce any front end wobble on 5B, and also simulate
corner exit throttle steering by reversing the effect of throttle to the suspension. Currently application of throttle
widens your line (suspension extends instead of contract) meaning you cant use the friction of the tyre to grap and push you around which is what you do in real life.
If you can explain what you did modify in the .tire file then we can maybe understand.
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on July 20, 2014, 09:01:38 AM
Quote from: rodney007 on July 20, 2014, 08:55:06 AM
Sorry to burst your bubble but the squat that I'm talking about (in GPB) has nothing to do with adjusting the suspension - its in the tire file.
The you didn't explain yourself correctly:
Quote from: rodney007 on July 19, 2014, 10:56:40 PM
Through hours of testing I have found how to basically completely reduce any front end wobble on 5B, and also simulate
corner exit throttle steering by reversing the effect of throttle to the suspension. Currently application of throttle
widens your line (suspension extends instead of contract) meaning you cant use the friction of the tyre to grap and push you around which is what you do in real life.
If you can explain what you did modify in the .tire file then we can maybe understand.
MaX.
in the rear tire file find this line:
p_Cy2 =This is very sensitive... start here:
p_Cy2 = 0.40000Then if your loosing too much grip find these lines:
r_By1 =
r_By2 = Bit down on By1, bit up on By2:
r_By1 = 6.000000
r_By2 = 5.000000If your going to change this and try, I suggest you prepare a file, do 3 laps - swap the file and try immediately after.
Takes getting used to but feels good. If you find raising the bike slightly unstable you can increase the "dampening rate" in the steering (bike.cfg)
This part ^^^ is for the squat, for the wobble open the bike .cfg file, scroll down to steering and adjust to this:
Damper = 4.7
DamperPower = 3
spg0 = -320
spg1 = -3
sdg0 = -80
sdg1 = 0.5
sig0 = 0
sig1 = 0
KYaw = 30
KDamping0 = 0
KDamping1 = 0.4[/color][/b]
Take close note when on the down hill hairpin on Victoria circuit and see if you get less wobble
well this is just another head pickle..
i see the point of both sides so to speak.
iv felt so far on gpbikes that in general the bikes understeer a tad too much..
feels more like the front end doesnt track properly to me though (like the bike pushes at an angle through the corner).
on my race bike.. (stock R6) when accelerating hard through or out of a corner it deffinately squats at the rear and helps me turn through it on the gas!
again though this is gpbikes.. based on 2003 motogp!
not a club racing R6 lol
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on July 20, 2014, 02:05:29 PM
on my race bike.. (stock R6) when accelerating hard through or out of a corner it deffinately squats at the rear and helps me turn through it on the gas!
same here
@rodney007: just to be sure, do you actually know what the parameters you've modified are ?
Changing the bike squatting behavior changing what you have changed sounds very suspect.
The part relative to the wobble makes more sense, but I only know what Damper and DamperPower are, the rest is relative to the virtual rider and I don't think Piboso as ever explained what they do exactly.
@BOBR6 84: it can be that your stock R6 squats accelerating hard. As I said, big power race bikes (MotoGP, SBK) tends to avoid that because given their power, their #1 difficulty is to keep the nose down.
MaX.
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on July 20, 2014, 02:05:29 PM
iv felt so far on gpbikes that in general the bikes understeer a tad too much..
feels more like the front end doesnt track properly to me though (like the bike pushes at an angle through the corner).
Thank you sir! I have always felt that way and even tried to make a case that this is a bug (http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=665.msg6249#msg6249), but obviously not many seemed to not see a problem there (or maybe didn't understand what I meant). I still see this problem, mostly when accelerating on high lean angles...
Right! Fast corners.. Its hi-lighted mainly on up and downhill turns too..
True that its probably a track surface problem but for me I see this front end ''issue'' everywhere to a degree..
Quote from: Stout Johnson on July 20, 2014, 07:36:35 PM
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on July 20, 2014, 02:05:29 PM
iv felt so far on gpbikes that in general the bikes understeer a tad too much..
feels more like the front end doesnt track properly to me though (like the bike pushes at an angle through the corner).
Thank you sir! I have always felt that way and even tried to make a case that this is a bug (http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=665.msg6249#msg6249), but obviously not many seemed to not see a problem there (or maybe didn't understand what I meant). I still see this problem, mostly when accelerating on high lean angles...
Yep, I remember that discussion. Recently, reading the book that describes the tire model used for GPB, I've found this:
QuoteA draw-back of the adapted formulae is the fact that at a given large value of alpha or gamma the asymptotic level of the side force that is approached at increasing large value of gamma or alpha respectively may (unintentionally) become (much) too low.
In the above, alpha is the sideslip angle of the tire while gamma is the camber angle. What the above means is that when both alpha and gamma are large, the formula used may underestimate the lateral force the tire generates. In practice, on a turn with the bike leaning significantly and the front tire "not pointing in the direction of motion" (i.e. significant sideslip angle), the front tire could generate less lateral force than it should. That could be the "poor tracking" bob is referring too (and somehow related to what we discussed Stout).
As the above applies to the rear tire too, I was also wondering if the fact that the asymptotic side force in such situations is too low could also play a role in the fact that powersliding is so difficult to control properly.
It's mostly speculation though, as we really can't investigate this properly, only Piboso can.
MaX.
I know what you mean.
For example on Mugello (turn 8 and 9) it looks weird.
Quote from: HornetMaX on July 20, 2014, 09:07:06 PM
Yep, I remember that discussion. Recently, reading the book that describes the tire model used for GPB, I've found this:
QuoteA draw-back of the adapted formulae is the fact that at a given large value of alpha or gamma the asymptotic level of the side force that is approached at increasing large value of gamma or alpha respectively may (unintentionally) become (much) too low.
In the above, alpha is the sideslip angle of the tire while gamma is the camber angle. What the above means is that when both alpha and gamma are large, the formula used may underestimate the lateral force the tire generates. In practice, on a turn with the bike leaning significantly and the front tire "not pointing in the direction of motion" (i.e. significant sideslip angle), the front tire could generate less lateral force than it should. That could be the "poor tracking" bob is referring too (and somehow related to what we discussed Stout).
As the above applies to the rear tire too, I was also wondering if the fact that the asymptotic side force in such situations is too low could also play a role in the fact that powersliding is so difficult to control properly.
It's mostly speculation though, as we really can't investigate this properly, only Piboso can.
MaX.
OOOh nice info there MaX! (I guess it is a nice positive side effect that comes with you not having a gaming PC at the moment - you have plenty of time to read :P) If I understand correctly, there is this formula to estimate the lateral forces of a tire (and this forumla is used in GPB) - and at high lean angles this formula may underestimate the forces right? This could indeed be the a cause of the "not pointing in the direction of motion"-problem.
But as for the powersliding control - you rarely have large lean angles when powersliding. At least they are very very hard to control anyway and mostly end in a high-sider irl. My assumption for the cause that powersliding is so hard to control, imo seems to be that the virtual rider seems to need a fine-tuning for such on-the-edge situations. It is the same when you try to get trail-braking to work... The initiation works, but then the virtual rider always seems to make a counter-steer which counterfeits a long powerslide/trail-brake. If one continues with the applied acceleration/brake it seems to build up due to the reaction/counter-reaction of the virtual-rider (it is very visible in slo-mo replay - the rider goes left/right/left/... although I have steering/leaning constant [using auto rider lean ofc]) and ends in a high-sider/crashes. If one adapts and releases throttle/brake a bit you can save it but only have minor powerslides or trail-braking situations.
Quote from: Stout Johnson on July 20, 2014, 09:55:09 PM
OOOh nice info there MaX! (I guess it is a nice positive side effect that comes with you not having a gaming PC at the moment - you have plenty of time to read :P)
Actually I read it before moving from scotland, but it's true it was at a time where I had a lot of time.
I didn't want to discuss it here immediately because I wanted to do some tests before (and also because I'd need Piboso to at least have a look at the curves I get to confirm I've implemented the formula correctly, didn't seem quite the right moment for that), but then the discussion re-surfaced so here it is :)
Quote from: Stout Johnson on July 20, 2014, 09:55:09 PM
If I understand correctly, there is this formula to estimate the lateral forces of a tire (and this forumla is used in GPB) - and at high lean angles this formula may underestimate the forces right? This could indeed be the a cause of the "not pointing in the direction of motion"-problem.
The formula may be wrong for high lean
and high sideslip
at the same time. High lean only is not enough (nor is high sideslip only).
Quote from: Stout Johnson on July 20, 2014, 09:55:09 PM
But as for the powersliding control - you rarely have large lean angles when powersliding.
One thing that I'm not sure is what "high" means in this context. I'm under the impression (from the usage of "high" done in the book) that in the book "high lean" could be even something as low as 20 degrees (and maybe even less). It's "high" compared to "no lean at all", meaning the behavior is significantly different from the no lean situation. This means you don't need motogp-like leaning of 60deg to be in trouble.
MaX.
Its interesting listen to you guys woffle on about so much stuff.
No-one is yet to even try what I have suggested to edit.
For the record, The throttle effect doesn't matter if you have a R6 club bike or a 2014 motogp bike. The physics are the same,
The compression is barley noticeable on a GPbike because of there space-technology suspension that must resist such power and
torque.
Here is a short clip of me testing my new suspension some years ago: (managed to shave 5 secs off these laps later)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxbjR3Era_E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxbjR3Era_E)
See: 0:22, 0:45, 1:28 are few good examples.
Same thing happens with any bike... now before we go talking about other stuff again just try my
file edits to the tyre and see what you think!
Lol ;D
Im not gonna mess about with files etc.. That would end in tears..
If you can upload a file to download im intrested to try it out for sure!!
Quote from: rodney007 on July 21, 2014, 03:25:29 AM
Its interesting listen to you guys woffle on about so much stuff.
No-one is yet to even try what I have suggested to edit.
For the record, The throttle effect doesn't matter if you have a R6 club bike or a 2014 motogp bike. The physics are the same,
The compression is barley noticeable on a GPbike because of there space-technology suspension that must resist such power and
torque.
Here is a short clip of me testing my new suspension some years ago: (managed to shave 5 secs off these laps later)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxbjR3Era_E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxbjR3Era_E)
See: 0:22, 0:45, 1:28 are few good examples.
Same thing happens with any bike... now before we go talking about other stuff again just try my
file edits to the tyre and see what you think!
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on July 21, 2014, 03:58:25 AM
Lol ;D
Im not gonna mess about with files etc.. That would end in tears..
If you can upload a file to download im intrested to try it out for sure!!
Hi Rodney.
Bob is right. Most people can't get their head around messing about with the physics files. If you want people to try your theory/results it's best to just provide a download link for an altered physics file so that others can just copy past it into the bike file required, then you'll get people testing what you have done. ;) 8)
This does sound very interesting..... Hope you'll give us a download link so we can try. ;D
Hawk.
Quote from: rodney007 on July 21, 2014, 03:25:29 AM
Its interesting listen to you guys woffle on about so much stuff.
No-one is yet to even try what I have suggested to edit.
For the record, The throttle effect doesn't matter if you have a R6 club bike or a 2014 motogp bike. The physics are the same,
The compression is barley noticeable on a GPbike because of there space-technology suspension that must resist such power and
torque.
Here is a short clip of me testing my new suspension some years ago: (managed to shave 5 secs off these laps later)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxbjR3Era_E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxbjR3Era_E)
See: 0:22, 0:45, 1:28 are few good examples.
Same thing happens with any bike... now before we go talking about other stuff again just try my
file edits to the tyre and see what you think!
I would try them, but at the moment I can't (no PC available for a few more weeks).
However, you are wrong: squatting when accelerating doesn't happen for
any bike. I may trust you it happens on your, but that's not the case for any bike. I have books with world-known researchers and bike experts stating this (I mean, it's not my word you should take for granted). A less technical explanation, click on the link and search for the paragraph "Does the rear actually RISE under acceleration?": http://www.promecha.com.au/myths_misconceptions.htm (http://www.promecha.com.au/myths_misconceptions.htm)
BTW, you didn't answer my question: do you actually know what are the parameters you changed, what they mean physically ?
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on July 21, 2014, 07:29:12 AM
Quote from: rodney007 on July 21, 2014, 03:25:29 AM
Its interesting listen to you guys woffle on about so much stuff.
No-one is yet to even try what I have suggested to edit.
For the record, The throttle effect doesn't matter if you have a R6 club bike or a 2014 motogp bike. The physics are the same,
The compression is barley noticeable on a GPbike because of there space-technology suspension that must resist such power and
torque.
Here is a short clip of me testing my new suspension some years ago: (managed to shave 5 secs off these laps later)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxbjR3Era_E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxbjR3Era_E)
See: 0:22, 0:45, 1:28 are few good examples.
Same thing happens with any bike... now before we go talking about other stuff again just try my
file edits to the tyre and see what you think!
I would try them, but at the moment I can't (no PC available for a few more weeks).
However, you are wrong: squatting when accelerating doesn't happen for any bike. I may trust you it happens on your, but that's not the case for any bike. I have books with world-known researchers and bike experts stating this (I mean, it's not my word you should take for granted). A less technical explanation, click on the link and search for the paragraph "Does the rear actually RISE under acceleration?": http://www.promecha.com.au/myths_misconceptions.htm (http://www.promecha.com.au/myths_misconceptions.htm)
BTW, you didn't answer my question: do you actually know what are the parameters you changed, what they mean physically ?
MaX.
I know what the parameter does to effect the bike, in terms of puting a name to it no. I went through each line with positive and negative values then tested.
In-terms of your research. Sure it makes complete sense - though the games result on suspension will not equal "real lifes" effect on the line radius.
Motogp bikes suspension compresses in corner and on a straight. If you don't know this watch some onboard footage.
QuoteHi Rodney.
Bob is right. Most people can't get their head around messing about with the physics files. If you want people to try your theory/results it's best to just provide a download link for an altered physics file so that others can just copy past it into the bike file required, then you'll get people testing what you have done. ;) 8)
This does sound very interesting..... Hope you'll give us a download link so we can try. ;D
Hawk.
Download the Yamaha M1 for 5b,
Unzip these files into the bike folder (backup)
As I said race some laps first so you can feel the change best.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3ktq7z2n4epl63q/Yamaha%20YZR-M1.zip (https://www.dropbox.com/s/3ktq7z2n4epl63q/Yamaha%20YZR-M1.zip)
Please just try it, motorbike physics are a science on their own... I have been caught up in arguments in real life and there is never a winner.
Quote from: rodney007 on July 21, 2014, 07:38:57 AM
I know what the parameter does to effect the bike, in terms of puting a name to it no. I went through each line with positive and negative values then tested.
In-terms of your research. Sure it makes complete sense - though the games result on suspension will not equal "real lifes" effect on the line radius.
Motogp bikes suspension compresses in corner and on a straight. If you don't know this watch some onboard footage.
Hmm ... OK then. Good luck.
MaX.
just tested it.. thanks!
it has to be said.. feels awesome!!!
front end has bags of feel and grip.. no wobbles only nice wobbles.
bike turns alot better.. generally feels great! lol
weather its right or wrong i have no idea but i like it alot lol
only thing is... do not crash because the game crashes in a nasty way..
Quote from: rodney007 on July 21, 2014, 07:38:57 AM
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3ktq7z2n4epl63q/Yamaha%20YZR-M1.zip (https://www.dropbox.com/s/3ktq7z2n4epl63q/Yamaha%20YZR-M1.zip)
Bad irrealistic feeling. Change some numbers at random will not make better gp bikes. Even in this case.
Quote from: FastFreddy on July 21, 2014, 08:22:21 AM
Quote from: rodney007 on July 21, 2014, 07:38:57 AM
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3ktq7z2n4epl63q/Yamaha%20YZR-M1.zip (https://www.dropbox.com/s/3ktq7z2n4epl63q/Yamaha%20YZR-M1.zip)
Bad irrealistic feeling. Change some numbers at random will not make better gp bikes. Even in this case.
This is why I was hesitant to offer my findings
Quote from: rodney007 on July 21, 2014, 09:36:42 AM
Quote from: FastFreddy on July 21, 2014, 08:22:21 AM
Quote from: rodney007 on July 21, 2014, 07:38:57 AM
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3ktq7z2n4epl63q/Yamaha%20YZR-M1.zip (https://www.dropbox.com/s/3ktq7z2n4epl63q/Yamaha%20YZR-M1.zip)
Bad irrealistic feeling. Change some numbers at random will not make better gp bikes. Even in this case.
This is why I was hesitant to offer my findings
It is the easiest thing in the world to post undiplomatic comments on a forum of this type. We can all do that. If we choose to..
Rodney, please do not be dissuaded. Experimentation of this type is in my opinion a worthwhile exercise. For it is only experimentation. What is the harm in that? You never know experimentation of this nature might provide some of the answers we are searching for..
I will try your modification for myself later on today.
Furthermore your bike mods are I have to say a very worthwhile contribution to the gpbikes community. I for one cannot wait to sample your TZ750 and its physics model.
grT ;)
Quote from: rodney007 on July 21, 2014, 09:36:42 AM
Quote from: FastFreddy on July 21, 2014, 08:22:21 AM
Quote from: rodney007 on July 21, 2014, 07:38:57 AM
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3ktq7z2n4epl63q/Yamaha%20YZR-M1.zip (https://www.dropbox.com/s/3ktq7z2n4epl63q/Yamaha%20YZR-M1.zip)
Bad irrealistic feeling. Change some numbers at random will not make better gp bikes. Even in this case.
This is why I was hesitant to offer my findings
Hi Rodney.
Don't worry about it.... You'll always get those who will denigrate your findings or think they know better. Same you will get others who think your changes are great.... Others like Max will try to look at your findings and work things through with you to fully understand what you have done and it's effects. So just make your tests and post the results/files(like you now have done.) for everyone to give it a good test. If people don't like it then so be it, no problem at all. If you get a community consensus and the backing of the bike MOD authors then who knows, your changes may even be added to the bike MOD/s.
So really, don't worry about what others think, it's just part and parcel of what forums are about(debate and differences of opinion), and this is a great forum. At least your giving it a go and testing things and trying to improve things.... Good on you mate I say! ;) 8)
Hawk.
Its ok, I am working with some bike moders to release bikes that feel like new ones, rather than 3d and skins for visual appearance.
this is off topic but roodney nice riding man :)
Quote from: Hawk_UK on July 21, 2014, 10:12:48 AM
Others like Max will try to look at your findings and work things through with you to fully understand what you have done and it's effects.
That's what I usually do, but in that specific case I'm not gonna push it any further as rodney007 (despite creating great 3d models and spending a lot of time on this physics tests, which is great) won't listen to some basic remarks. Fine to me.
I can't try his results right now so I won't judge it. What I can say with absolute certainty is that not all the bikes squat at acceleration (powerful sport bikes in particular) and that changing the Pacejka coefficients of the tire as he has done should have zero impact on the fact the rear compresses or extends when the gas is open. That's for the benefit of the others, as rodney007 doesn't seem to care (which is his right, no problem with that).
MaX.
(https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/8254500864/h49B874B7/)
Quote from: Warlock on July 21, 2014, 01:58:05 PM
(https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/8254500864/h49B874B7/)
LOL
still laughing
hahaahahah ;D
Has anybody else tried it yet?
I think its nice..
From what you wanted to acheive with it rodney I think u got it!
I cant comment on whether or not its the correct way to change stuff but from a brief 10laps it felt good to me.. Just seemed to get alot more purchase from the tyre..
I tried it, and although the front wheel stays in line alot better and so it reduces the wobbles significantly, it also has something unnatural about it. It looks like the bike has a slight moment where it looks like it wants to turn around it`s center pivot ( like the rotating cheeseburger effect ) before the front wheel grabs it`s line and starts cornering. I also felt that corner entry speed was also reduced a little, but that can also be due to wrong setup, as i feel this tweak might need a special or different suspension setup than the default ones.
All in all it`s a step in the right way, but it`s not quite there yet.
But hey, who am i...
Yes I've tried it. It does seem to improve (i.e. lessen) the tendency for the front end of the bike to "wobble" quite noticeably.
Tbh though beta 5b with this modification still doesn't feel right to me. The bike still doesn't feel "neutral" on the front end to me. But yes it is improved..
grT
everytime i fall i got a crash dunno if everyone is getting the same or if its only me
Quote from: valentinik46 on July 21, 2014, 12:24:51 PM
this is off topic but rodney nice riding man :)
Cheers dude
Quote from: HornetMaX on July 21, 2014, 12:50:06 PM
That's what I usually do, but in that specific case I'm not gonna push it any further as rodney007 (despite creating great 3d models and spending a lot of time on this physics tests, which is great) won't listen to some basic remarks. Fine to me.
I can't try his results right now so I won't judge it. What I can say with absolute certainty is that not all the bikes squat at acceleration (powerful sport bikes in particular) and that changing the Pacejka coefficients of the tire as he has done should have zero impact on the fact the rear compresses or extends when the gas is open. That's for the benefit of the others, as rodney007 doesn't seem to care (which is his right, no problem with that).
MaX.
Um...you crack me up MaX, they did warn me about you :P - I tried answering your questions but you seem to .... I
am just going to leave it I am too busy to get caught up in something with you no offense.
Quote from: girlracerTracey on July 21, 2014, 09:10:22 PM
Yes I've tried it. It does seem to improve (i.e. lessen) the tendency for the front end of the bike to "wobble" quite noticeably.
Tbh though beta 5b with this modification still doesn't feel right to me. The bike still doesn't feel "neutral" on the front end to me. But yes it is improved..
grT
Great to hear... a step in the right direction!, You can try it on 4B it feels much nicer
Quote from: JamoZ on July 21, 2014, 08:33:52 PM
I tried it, and although the front wheel stays in line alot better and so it reduces the wobbles significantly, it also has something unnatural about it. It looks like the bike has a slight moment where it looks like it wants to turn around it`s center pivot ( like the rotating cheeseburger effect ) before the front wheel grabs it`s line and starts cornering. I also felt that corner entry speed was also reduced a little, but that can also be due to wrong setup, as i feel this tweak might need a special or different suspension setup than the default ones.
All in all it`s a step in the right way, but it`s not quite there yet.
But hey, who am i...
Great feedback man thanks! If this is too much the tire setting can be adjusted so there is less compression when on throttle in the corner. Am happy to revise some files and
let you try again if you want?
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on July 21, 2014, 07:38:30 PM
Has anybody else tried it yet?
I think its nice..
From what you wanted to achieve with it rodney I think u got it!
I cant comment on whether or not its the correct way to change stuff but from a brief 10laps it felt good to me.. Just seemed to get alot more purchase from the tyre..
Yes the rear tire works alot more... thanks for your feed back
Quote from: rodney007 on July 22, 2014, 03:29:30 AM
Um...you crack me up MaX, they did warn me about you :P - I tried answering your questions but you seem to .... I
am just going to leave it I am too busy to get caught up in something with you no offense.
None taken.
All my willingness to explain to people on this forum why things work the way they work is gone. From now on I'll just warn when somebody says something very wrong (e.g. "all the bikes squat at acceleration"), without bothering to explain. The ones who care to know why could always reach me by PM.
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on July 22, 2014, 07:45:56 AM
Quote from: rodney007 on July 22, 2014, 03:29:30 AM
Um...you crack me up MaX, they did warn me about you :P - I tried answering your questions but you seem to .... I
am just going to leave it I am too busy to get caught up in something with you no offense.
None taken.
All my willingness to explain to people on this forum why things work the way they work is gone. From now on I'll just warn when somebody says something very wrong (e.g. "all the bikes squat at acceleration"), without bothering to explain. The ones who care to know why could always reach me by PM.
MaX.
MaX I answered your questions, what more do you want ?
Quote from: HornetMaX on July 22, 2014, 07:45:56 AM
Quote from: rodney007 on July 22, 2014, 03:29:30 AM
Um...you crack me up MaX, they did warn me about you :P - I tried answering your questions but you seem to .... I
am just going to leave it I am too busy to get caught up in something with you no offense.
None taken.
All my willingness to explain to people on this forum why things work the way they work is gone. From now on I'll just warn when somebody says something very wrong (e.g. "all the bikes squat at acceleration"), without bothering to explain. The ones who care to know why could always reach me by PM.
MaX.
you shouldnt stop MaX! you are extremely helpful on this forum!
i appriciate your efforts anyway.
as you know sometimes easier to agree to dissagree ;)
Rodney i have tried it.
It feel nice and has some new problems too like when braking hard and go in undo position the bike wooble too much and fall
Other thant that i like it and have core exe only if i fall.
Maybe have you put a false value in sphere collision?
And you right try the positive and negative value are a good way to fully understand/test the gpb physic it's not reality it's a game in beta phase so all the process are good keep up you' re works thx for the "beta" testing :)
And Max has good arguments even if is really to much "ingenior" oriented in his answer ;he try to help you.
The others in this tread are just too lazy.Grt have right.
I need to test a little more for to have really a precise idea...
Quote from: HornetMaX on July 22, 2014, 07:45:56 AM
Quote from: rodney007 on July 22, 2014, 03:29:30 AM
Um...you crack me up MaX, they did warn me about you :P - I tried answering your questions but you seem to .... I
am just going to leave it I am too busy to get caught up in something with you no offense.
None taken.
All my willingness to explain to people on this forum why things work the way they work is gone. From now on I'll just warn when somebody says something very wrong (e.g. "all the bikes squat at acceleration"), without bothering to explain. The ones who care to know why could always reach me by PM.
MaX.
Hi Max.
I've always found your willingness to work on your plugins, help and explain subjects in detail very informative, educational and helpful. It would be a real shame if you stopped doing what you do here on the forum; I for one would be very much poorer if you stopped.
This is obviously just a clash of personalities, opinions and points of view which you always get on forums at some stages(as I've known in the past, and I'm sure you know too). Just don't let this event stop you from informing us all of how things work. You've always done a great job in the past and I hope long may it continue! ;)
Hawk.
Hawk just say it better than my poor English so keep it up ^^
Guys there's no issue, I'll still explain to the ones who want to listen and understand. I'll just stop trying to explain things to the ones that don't want to even try to understand.
@rodney007: really, I do appreciate your work on bikes and even your tests on physics (and btw congrats for your real life riding skills). It's just that facing hundreds of parameters, blindly trying to change some of them with no idea about what they are supposed to do is surely not a reasonable way to go (unless it's really the only doable thing).
MaX.
MaX, maybe this will help you understand where I am coming from:
Your question:
QuoteIf you can explain what you did modify in the .tire file then we can maybe understand.
My Answer:
Quotein the rear tire file find this line:
p_Cy2 =
This is very sensitive... start here:
p_Cy2 = 0.40000........
You:
Quote click on the link and search for the paragraph "Does the rear actually RISE under acceleration?": http://www.promecha.com.au/myths_misconceptions.htm
Me:
QuoteIn-terms of your research. Sure it makes complete sense - though the games result on suspension will not equal "real lifes" effect on the line radius.
You:
Quotebut in that specific case I'm not gonna push it any further as rodney007 (despite creating great 3d models and spending a lot of time on this physics tests, which is great) won't listen to some basic remarks. Fine to me.
You:
Quoteas rodney007 doesn't seem to care (which is his right, no problem with that).
MaX... please I don't have time for this - I have answered your questions and have tried to be civil... take a chill pill
Quote from: HornetMaX on July 22, 2014, 09:58:16 AM
Guys there's no issue, I'll still explain to the ones who want to listen and understand. I'll just stop trying to explain things to the ones that don't want to even try to understand.
@rodney007: really, I do appreciate your work on bikes and even your tests on physics (and btw congrats for your real life riding skills). It's just that facing hundreds of parameters, blindly trying to change some of them with no idea about what they are supposed to do is surely not a reasonable way to go (unless it's really the only doable thing).
MaX.
I changed each line and tested them... I made notes on different parameters. I specifically was looking for on-throttle suspension compression. Based on
the Beta 500GP physics test thread in regards to throttle steering.
I almost fell off my chair when I found what Cy2 does in the tire file! I could feel it instantly
and could not stop riding the bike! For me this is what GP-bikes was missing. When I was racing competitively I
read a fantastic book called "a twist of the wrist" which is talks so much about rear suspension compression and how
it makes your rear tIre work and how much grip your tire can give.
At first I knew I found it when I increased it from
0.60000 to
1.0000 the rear suspension extended so much
that the bike was going so wide on corner exit - at this moment I knew that if I lowered it I would have the opposite effect.
0.6000 is right on the neutral range yet needs to be lower to offer a slight compression and tighten your line *slightly* when working
your rear tire which is what happens with racing bikes. It seems to affect only when in leaning angles... to low of a setting and the bike slides too much.
There other two lines effected the wheel grip from spinning - i.e you can full throttle anywhere and it wont spin the tire. Combining CY2 on-throttle compression
and the other two counteracted the rear wheel spinning to much and gave me the desired effect. This is the logic.
In regards to the wobble - I figured by increasing the steering dampening settings it may defuse it slightly and it did. I know its not relative but
this is what I did on my race bike so my front end was more stable accelerating out from corners.
Quote from: rodney007 on July 22, 2014, 10:05:05 AM
read a fantastic book called "a twist of the wrist"
I have the exact same book inherited from my father. Also "Twist of the Wrist 2" amongst many others..
It's still very much a worthy read imo.
grT
This "Twist of the Wrist" thing sometimes annoys me to be honest.
No doubt Keith Code is probably a good instructor, and his book is probably good (I haven't read it yet), but by no means is he the only good instructor and also there are some much better racers that provide instruction as well.
I'm not talking about what you and rodney are saying (you guys are probably right), it's just that I felt like expressing what I feel about the cult-like attitude of some riders (not you) with the Keith Code thing.
I'm really reluctant to learn things from someone who has not been part of the very best riders of the world.
I think having a good weekend of riding school with a former GP500 racer is probably better than going to his Superbike School.
I've been lucky enough to share track time (not at the same pace!) with former world GP racers at classic events and they have something I've never seen in any other riders. It's just a different class, a different level of riding, even compared to a national Superbike champion or world endurance champion. There is so much to learn from them.
Keith Code is not a world GP racer so if I were given choice between him and Freddie Spencer for example, I would go to Freddie Spencer without hesitation. I know some people who would do differently :(
Sorry for the off topic. Sorry :P
Quote from: EdouardB on July 22, 2014, 12:35:23 PM
This "Twist of the Wrist" thing sometimes annoys me to be honest.
No doubt Keith Code is probably a good instructor, and his book is probably good (I haven't read it yet), but by no means is he the only good instructor and also there are some much better racers that provide instruction as well.
I'm not talking about what you and rodney are saying (you guys are probably right), it's just that I felt like expressing what I feel about the cult-like attitude of some riders (not you) with the Keith Code thing.
I'm really reluctant to learn things from someone who has not been part of the very best riders of the world.
I think having a good weekend of riding school with a former GP500 racer is probably better than going to his Superbike School.
I've been lucky enough to share track time (not at the same pace!) with former world GP racers at classic events and they have something I've never seen in any other riders. It's just a different class, a different level of riding, even compared to a national Superbike champion or world endurance champion. There is so much to learn from them.
Keith Code is not a world GP racer so if I were given choice between him and Freddie Spencer for example, I would go to Freddie Spencer without hesitation. I know some people who would do differently :(
Sorry for the off topic. Sorry :P
Interestingly Keith Code and Freddie Spencer disagree subtly on certain aspects of motorcycle racing physics and theory. Including that of rear wheel steering and two wheel drifting..
Essentially I think I agree with you Edouard. I also think Keith Code's counter steering video is a bit too self assuming in its theory in some ways.. But that's another story!
grT
The book is OK, now a bit outdated and a few parts are controversial (read it a few years ago, not even sure I still have it).
However, most of the information it has is correct and if half the riders were half aware of half of the book content, it would already be a big improvement.
One thing I've liked about it is the idea of busting some of the myths hanging around.
I can't judge how good an instructor he is, but I have to admit his work has provided practical, useful info to many riders (and I'm sure it cleared up some ideas even for some very experienced riders).
MaX.
Like I said, the book is probably good :P But I like how GP riders think "outside the box" in a lot of ways and have techniques that you would never think of.
A good example is when I went to riding school with Didier de Radigues (highly recommend if you're in France or Belgium) and he explained to us how to test the grip on the wet (the track was really wet) and how to manage the power on the bike.
Your instinct would tell you to ride at a slightly lower RPM than on the dry, that way you're not surprised by the power, right?
Well basically he told us to keep riding at high RPM all the time (even higher than on the dry sometimes), never at low RPM, that way the only changes in power delivery comes from the throttle(which is predictable) and not from the power curve (less predictable).
This kind of stuff is not natural at first but once you do it, it makes complete sense.
I could go on and on about examples like this but really, these guys' minds work in a special way.
yeah Edouard, it's the torgue that kills you in the wet not the power, keep it above or well below for wet weather.
Simon crafer.. he's the man! ;)
explains his techniques very well for people like me..
in corners surely the rear has to squat even if just slightly, to load up the rear for grip..
i can see the logic in the rear rising on the straights.. infact i think that happens on my bike on the straights in the higher gears.. to a degree.
it would make more sense to me if you said the swingarm pivot counteracts the bike squatting.. gp bikes are very stiff but have a very long wheelbase, so that would make sense to me.
http://youtu.be/ndU65pUKn9k?t=7m20s
Quote from: EdouardB on July 22, 2014, 01:12:42 PM
Like I said, the book is probably good :P But I like how GP riders think "outside the box" in a lot of ways and have techniques that you would never think of.
A good example is when I went to riding school with Didier de Radigues (highly recommend if you're in France or Belgium) and he explained to us how to test the grip on the wet (the track was really wet) and how to manage the power on the bike.
Your instinct would tell you to ride at a slightly lower RPM than on the dry, that way you're not surprised by the power, right?
Well basically he told us to keep riding at high RPM all the time (even higher than on the dry sometimes), never at low RPM, that way the only changes in power delivery comes from the throttle(which is predictable) and not from the power curve (less predictable).
This kind of stuff is not natural at first but once you do it, it makes complete sense.
I could go on and on about examples like this but really, these guys' minds work in a special way.
Exactly.. lots of crazy tips from riders!
In the wet I go a tooth higher for more accelleration!
Purely because you cannot be as hard on the throttle when the bike is leant over.. So as soon as I get the bike up out of the turn I need the extra acceleration.
Other tips.. At darley moor circuit there is a fast chicane and straight after it a sharp left hand bend going into a hairpin!
Some people exit the chicane and roll off the throttle for the left hander and still struggle to stop for the hairpin.
Best way is to apply some throttle going around left turn.. Even though you go a little faster, when you come to brake.. You have more travel left on front suspension. So I can enter faster and brake later with no probs..