Constructive feedback about the game and its future direction

[WALKEN]

How about a physics engineer? 

[HornetMaX]

Yes I heard the same thing. Even senior Dunlop factory tyre technicians were involved from what I understand which I think may account for the very advanced tyre grip/wear model (for its time) seen in the game. Nothing else in the m/c racing game spectrum has matched the tyre model since.

What makes you think that the gp500 tire model was that accurate ?! That just beats me.

At the time, decent tire models were barely appearing in research papers ... and still many thinks what was coded in gp500 was a good model.

It's not because it feels good (to some) that it is indeed good. Otherwise bike riders would be designing and engineering bikes. But that's not the way it works.

MaX.

[girlracerTracey]

What makes you think that the gp500 tire model was that accurate ?! That just beats me.

I did say for its time Max.  Compared to other m/c racing games (not including gpbikes which is a simulator) it is, in relative terms, very advanced. Compared to say SBK2001 or dare I say it motogp14..

If you were to do a full distance race on gp500 Max (say 35 minutes of racing) I think you would appreciate what I am saying. On the 1st lap or so you have to be really careful not to lose the front end on the brakes through it tucking or the rear end on the power through a high-side.  Until you get some heat into the tyres.. Likewise towards the end of a long race the tyres will start to go off. You have to adjust your riding style accordingly. Tyre selection and tyre management is quite crucial to winning in gp500. As I say for its time gp500 was in the opinion of many, including real life racers, quite an achievement in terms of its tyre wear/grip model. I think this probably accounts for the popularity of the game. I am judging this in terms of the on track feel and experience of playing the game.  In simple terms that's why Max. Exact basis of the physics model notwithstanding. Surely the most important aspect in judging the tyre wear/grip model in a game like gp500 is how it feels on track compared to how it feels in real life? In that respect to many people it felt & still feels pretty good.

Why does that beat you Max? In the context of when it was designed and made and in the context of a simulation game gp500 delivers a first rate tyre model in my opinion. Compared to real life. It is possible to judge something like this from the seat of one's pants as well as from a slide-rule Max. 

grT

[HornetMaX]

Usually a model is not "accurate for its time", either it's accurate (for its purpose) or it is not. If it is accurate (for its purpose) today, it will be accurate in 10 years too.

I have no idea of what is implemented in gp500: if somebody cared to explain as much as Piboso has explained his own model, then one could compare.
But that aside, do you realise that tire wear  is relatively easy to implement in a manner that feel satisfactory for gamers and even riders ?
On the other hand, physically accurate tire wear is so freakin' hard that nobody has it today (not even in F1, where, despite the gazillion of $ put into simulators, you still see pilot struggling with tire wear in the middle of a race).

To me it is pretty clear that there are two "schools": Piboso starts from the physics and builds up from that. Others starts from the "feeling" and tweaks whatever is tweakable in order to have the 'feeling' they want to have. There are overlap areas between the two approaches (Piboso does consider some feedback, some tweaking is done), but the line separating the two philosophies is very clear.

MaX.

[girlracerTracey]

If I am honest Max one of the things I do not feel sufficiently connected with when I play gpbikes are the tyres.. the feedback from the tyres has always felt rather vague and imprecise to me. Granted I have only been playing gpbikes since beta 4b but in none of the beta versions I have sampled am I getting much feedback from the tyres. I fully accept you are running an advanced tyre model in gpbikes but I am just not feeling it very much on track. I am hoping that the feedback from the tyres will improve as the base physics model is enhanced and progressively fine tuned. But at the moment, if I am honest, no I am not feeling much..

I am just being honest and in making these comments I do accept that I am hardly a veteran on gpbikes.

grT   

[girlracerTracey]

Usually a model is not "accurate for its time", either it's accurate (for its purpose) or it is not. If it is accurate (for its purpose) today, it will be accurate in 10 years too.

Your words not mine Max. I used the phrase advanced for its time. 

To me it is pretty clear that there are two "schools": Piboso starts from the physics and builds up from that. Others starts from the "feeling" and tweaks whatever is tweakable in order to have the 'feeling' they want to have. There are overlap areas between the two approaches (Piboso does consider some feedback, some tweaking is done), but the line separating the two philosophies is very clear.

I agree in essence with what you are saying. However, to get the right feel on track at the end of the exercise is also imo vitally important. Physics models might be to all intents & purposes correct but if the end result on the track simply doesn't feel quite right then something arguably would be missing in the simulator. This is why in F1 simulators I think the input of the F1 drivers can & does play an important part. I think it needs to be a subtle marriage of the two schools of thought with the engineers leading the way..

grT

[Klax75]

Again sadly we are years away from a "real" controller. 

The only instant remedy/solution is to write the code for a RC controller  http://www.futaba-rc.com/systems/futk9200-10j/index.html   This might be the in between solution at best?

That's pretty much what I'm doing with DST. Both sticks are working together and opposite of one another.

[HornetMaX]

Again sadly we are years away from a "real" controller. 

The only instant remedy/solution is to write the code for a RC controller  http://www.futaba-rc.com/systems/futk9200-10j/index.html   This might be the in between solution at best?

That's pretty much what I'm doing with DST. Both sticks are working together and opposite of one another.

Not sure the r/c controller have any relationship to DST, it's just two sticks with (far) better quality.
Also, no need to write the code: you can get a Walkera Devo radio and use the custom DeviationX firmware (http://www.deviationtx.com/), as it allows you to use your radio as an usb input device.

MaX.

[WALKEN]

I think its safe to point out that if one wants to give feedback and have a deeper understanding of the void then KRP and a good wheel and a lot of hours will bring to light what is missing.

You can debate about this game that game all day long but the one major thing they all have in common is the controls. The difference is GPBikes physics might not translate as friendly as all the other "arcade" offerings which where designed to be used with a game pad including GP500, where in comparison to Climax GP1 concerning tire to tarmac isn't even close.  And that was just Shawn Hargreaves idea of what feels real but isn't even close to reality.

Also feedback should be taken from first person view only or it is no longer valid as now we are back to RC racing again.       

[Hawk]

Probably not    Hence the point at hand.

Any real riders involvement concerning a game would be IMO for marketing purposes and a tip here and there, not where PIboso is going. Besides GP500 is only as realistic as it can be with a game pad. Fastest means nothing as you can manipulate setting in a strange way to achieve faster laps, I have done this for years.

Then to consider feedback from us (virtual riders) who do you trust? 

The mention of RC controls is only to bridge the gap. Meaning even with a PS3 pad GPBikes can be coded to act as a RC simulation which in turn would be more realistic as you are granted the  tools, until a proper controller is compiled.   

Secrets? Do tell.... Hehe 

Hawk.

[WALKEN]

Again sadly we are years away from a "real" controller. 

The only instant remedy/solution is to write the code for a RC controller  http://www.futaba-rc.com/systems/futk9200-10j/index.html   This might be the in between solution at best?

That's pretty much what I'm doing with DST. Both sticks are working together and opposite of one another.

One idea I was working on Klax was sixaxis for rider lean using Motion in Joy. Very hard to do but made for a different adventure altogether   Also Mx vs atv had separate thumbstick controls on one offering I think it was "reflex"

But again our feed back will mostly point out what Piboso already knows to an extent until someone clever enough bridges the gap.

[rodney007]

I understand previous comments in regards to the fact that you cant just grab a bike rider and hand him a controller to test a bike game as it is significantly different to a race driver siting in a simulator and being able to get fully into things.

I think in order to get the correct feedback you need to assign a small group of riders in real life who actively play this game
and are confident re the physics behind forum walls to be allowed to work without distractions.

I am willing to help on this front and have spent hours upon hours tweaking lines of settings to get the most feedback and true-to life experience and immersion from this game.

However as some may agree - through a process of delegation and changes through community feedback I feel we were able to get the KTM RC8 mod to a very VERY good place ,although there was alot of negative feedback most likely fueled by hatred towards me more so than genuine feedback.

I benefited hugely from the input and feedback others riders through the forum and as you could see would make changes and tried to find the balance although a challenge seemed to work great.

Some community members could not grasp the idea of simply bouncing changes off comment to comment however the process worked and is how many games such as PROJECT CARS has been handled.

So, for what its worth I am keen to put my hand up and help develop some prototype physics adjustments incorporating what I have learned from experimentation and hours of testing
alongside my skills with working on 3D to benefit the community with others members here.

Just to quickly reflect on some of the changes we made to the KTM RC8 bike was:

-Bike wobble reduced / nearly gone
-Front end stability and feedback
-Braking realism, strong on straight, ease off into corner
-Realistic tire heating values for front/rear
-Weight balance to help control the wheelie issue
-On-throttle steering and rear tire feedback

In my opinion these changes were not perfect and of course need fine tuning however I feel that these changes are what could benefit the new patch significantly.

By improving the base physics it also provides a base-line for new bike mods which means more time can be spent adjusting them to be unique to the geometry
in contrast to time being spent simply trying to fix the many problems first OR only releasing 3D mods as most are which seem quite pointless as this game is a simulator.

[Hawk]

@Rodney: Does this mean you'll consider releasing your TZ750? 

Hawk.

[yoshimura]

@Rodney,Very good news,for your work

[rodney007]

@Rodney: Does this mean you'll consider releasing your TZ750? 

Hawk.

Lets see what Piboso's stance is on the recent ideas of a team of guys working together to help him first. Then.... we can have many mod bikes each with
unique physics not only TZR....