https://motomatters.com/news/2015/04/25/marc_marquez_breaks_little_finger_in_tra.html
I think the truth is that Marquez has been riding his luck.... Now he needs to get a brain and start to ride with some intelligence if he's to become one of the all time greats. That performance last Sunday was just sheer idiocy on his part.. What a plonker! ::)
Marquez still has a lot to learn to beat the "Doctor" at his best. :P
Hawk.
I don't think his rookie championship and then defending it with 10 straight wins can be called 'luck' in any form whatsoever. He's on the limit every race weekend. Sure, that means that sooner or later something will happen, and it did in Argentina. But that's how he rides. Granted, he should have known that Rossi would swing out on the throttle. Too aggressive that time. And as the commentators said last week, Marquez has been involved in a few of those incidents in the premier class the other way around (with Marquez 'capitalising' you could say). Jerez 2013, Aragon 2013, and recently taking out Bautista in Qatar.
That qualifying performance in Texas was absolutely amazing. He's arguably the best rider on the grid at the moment. He has room for improvement, but you can't discount his accomplishments so far and attribute them to luck.
To me it is true Marquez has been lucky, but not in the sense that his results are due to luck, more in the sense that on some occasion he went horribly close to a catastrophe (and in most of the occasion, the risk was not justified).
Now, from that to say that he has a lot to learn from Rossi ... well, something maybe, a lot I'm not so sure. And the opposite is also true, Rossi has something to learn from Marquez too. Actually, I think that Rossi has indeed been learning from Marquez and that explains (at least partially) his comeback. Even if I'm not the ultimate Rossi supporter, I do admire the fact that at his age and with all his trophies at home, he's still open to learn from others. That's remarkable.
MaX.
Firstly I didn't say anything about Marquez learning anything from the Doctor. Secondly I certainly didn't say Marquez's achievements have been down to total luck either. :P
Basically what I'm saying, in my opinion, is that Marquez rides like a guy who doesn't believe he'll hurt himself if he makes a mistake... He's reckless and very much riding his luck in that way. Hopefully now Rossi is on a machine that can compete, he'll teach him a few important lessons about racing, like he did last time out. That was an absolute CLASSIC!! ;D ;D
This season will hopefully teach Marquez that he cannot ride 10/10ths of his ability all the time and get away with it anymore like he has been doing. Only when he learns that lesson will he have the potential to become one of the all time greats. :)
Hawk.
Quote from: Hawk UK on April 26, 2015, 03:24:15 PM
.... Marquez rides like a guy who doesn't believe he'll hurt himself if he makes a mistake... .
I remember saying the same thing to my dear old Dad two seasons ago. Fortunately I think/hope his skills have replaced his luck! ;)
Quote from: Hawk UK on April 26, 2015, 03:24:15 PM
Basically what I'm saying, in my opinion, is that Marquez rides like a guy who doesn't believe he'll hurt himself if he makes a mistake... He's reckless and very much riding his luck in that way.
Well, given how much you love the 500cc era (which was pretty dense in terms of reckless riders), you should love him too :)
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 26, 2015, 08:01:48 PM
Quote from: Hawk UK on April 26, 2015, 03:24:15 PM
Basically what I'm saying, in my opinion, is that Marquez rides like a guy who doesn't believe he'll hurt himself if he makes a mistake... He's reckless and very much riding his luck in that way.
Well, given how much you love the 500cc era (which was pretty dense in terms of reckless riders), you should love him too :)
MaX.
If Marquez could ride a Classic 500cc GP bike(which I doubt) to the same standard he rides these modern MotoGP micky mouse bikes then I have to agree with you Max. But I guess we'll never find that out because the factories will never let these guys race each other in a Classic GP500 race, even if it was only a one off exhibition race for the fans. :P
Don't get me wrong.... I think Marquez is a rare "modern" talent. I just think he still needs to temper that talent before he shows his true potential to become one of the all time greats like Rossi has already proved himself to be. But he can never be regarded as good a rider as Rossi is simply because Rossi has 9 world titles through both 2 stroke and 4 stroke era's; Marquez will never be able to surpass that achievement. Rossi is probably the greatest Motorcycle Grand Prix rider there has ever been and has the record to prove it. :P :)
Hawk.
When Valentino retires so does the passion in my heart! There will never be another Rossi for my era, impossible.
I am saddened by the death of Marco Simoncelli as he brought life to a stagnate sport which use to be more exciting in the 500cc era. Marc is great for the modern sport! Every rider is important to the sport, even Clutchblow.
Love'em or hate'em deep down we love them all.
Quote from: WALKEN on April 26, 2015, 10:28:07 PM
Every rider is important to the sport, even Clutchblow.
You leave crutchblow, im mean low, alone :P
He made good a crap situation at Ducati and he's not doing terrible at LCR ;D
lol, hey almost, coulda, woulda, shoulda ;)
Quote from: Hawk UK on April 26, 2015, 03:24:15 PM
Basically what I'm saying, in my opinion, is that Marquez rides like a guy who doesn't believe he'll hurt himself if he makes a mistake... He's reckless and very much riding his luck in that way.
You could be right, but in any case it has paid off for him so far, at least for the last two years. Maybe he has finally found the absolute limit to his craziness that will yield him results. Will he tone it down from here, considering his injury? We'll find out this weekend. Can't wait :)
Quote from: Hawk UK on April 26, 2015, 10:15:49 PM
If Marquez could ride a Classic 500cc GP bike(which I doubt) to the same standard he rides these modern MotoGP micky mouse bikes then I have to agree with you Max. But I guess we'll never find that out because the factories will never let these guys race each other in a Classic GP500 race, even if it was only a one off exhibition race for the fans. :P
Don't get me wrong.... I think Marquez is a rare "modern" talent. I just think he still needs to temper that talent before he shows his true potential to become one of the all time greats like Rossi has already proved himself to be. But he can never be regarded as good a rider as Rossi is simply because Rossi has 9 world titles through both 2 stroke and 4 stroke era's; Marquez will never be able to surpass that achievement. Rossi is probably the greatest Motorcycle Grand Prix rider there has ever been and has the record to prove it. :P :)
Good point. Rossi has 500cc, 800cc, 990cc under his belt not to mention riding for Honda, Yamaha and Ducati in the modern era.
Quote from: matty0l215 on April 26, 2015, 10:40:19 PM
Quote from: WALKEN on April 26, 2015, 10:28:07 PM
Every rider is important to the sport, even Clutchblow.
You leave crutchblow, im mean low, alone :P
He made good a crap situation at Ducati and he's not doing terrible at LCR ;D
Quote from: WALKEN on April 26, 2015, 11:08:10 PM
lol, hey almost, coulda, woulda, shoulda ;)
LOL!! ;D
Quote from: VR46nz on April 26, 2015, 11:09:30 PM
Quote from: Hawk UK on April 26, 2015, 03:24:15 PM
Basically what I'm saying, in my opinion, is that Marquez rides like a guy who doesn't believe he'll hurt himself if he makes a mistake... He's reckless and very much riding his luck in that way.
You could be right, but in any case it has paid off for him so far, at least for the last two years. Maybe he has finally found the absolute limit to his craziness that will yield him results. Will he tone it down from here, considering his injury? We'll find out this weekend. Can't wait :)
Quote from: Hawk UK on April 26, 2015, 10:15:49 PM
If Marquez could ride a Classic 500cc GP bike(which I doubt) to the same standard he rides these modern MotoGP micky mouse bikes then I have to agree with you Max. But I guess we'll never find that out because the factories will never let these guys race each other in a Classic GP500 race, even if it was only a one off exhibition race for the fans. :P
Don't get me wrong.... I think Marquez is a rare "modern" talent. I just think he still needs to temper that talent before he shows his true potential to become one of the all time greats like Rossi has already proved himself to be. But he can never be regarded as good a rider as Rossi is simply because Rossi has 9 world titles through both 2 stroke and 4 stroke era's; Marquez will never be able to surpass that achievement. Rossi is probably the greatest Motorcycle Grand Prix rider there has ever been and has the record to prove it. :P :)
Good point. Rossi has 500cc, 800cc, 990cc under his belt not to mention riding for Honda, Yamaha and Ducati in the modern era.
Yeah, can't wait to see this coming weekends race also.... Should be another classic if Marquez can get himself fit enough. But I would suspect it'll take another two races before Marquez will be able to ride without any hindrance from his finger injury unless the doctor numbs his finger for the race? :)
Hawk.
PS: Not forgetting the 125cc and 250cc world champs Rossi has also won in 1997 and 1999 respectively I believe? ;) ;D
Quote from: Hawk UK on April 26, 2015, 10:15:49 PM
If Marquez could ride a Classic 500cc GP bike(which I doubt) to the same standard he rides these modern MotoGP micky mouse bikes then I have to agree with you Max. But I guess we'll never find that out because the factories will never let these guys race each other in a Classic GP500 race, even if it was only a one off exhibition race for the fans. :P
Classical argument. First you doubt he could, then you said anyway we'll never find out.
I'm more open, who knows. 500cc riders were not an alien breed, at least no more than others that came later.
Mickey mouse bikes ... yeah sure ... come on man, you're smarter than that ...
Quote from: Hawk UK on April 26, 2015, 10:15:49 PM
Marquez will never be able to surpass that achievement.
That's exactly what others were saying about Rossi when he started, or Schumacher when he started ...
Time moves forward (and only forward), but some people seem to have a problem with that. I call them the "romantic".
Quote from: WALKEN on April 26, 2015, 10:28:07 PM
When Valentino retires so does the passion in my heart! There will never be another Rossi for my era, impossible.
Same as above :)
Quote from: Hawk UK on April 26, 2015, 10:15:49 PM
Rossi is probably the greatest Motorcycle Grand Prix rider there has ever been and has the record to prove it. :P :)
I can agree no problem on that, especially from the results point of view. But surely the fact he also won on 500cc is not a factor for me.
He's good because he's good, not bacause he won on 500cc bikes. Plenty of less good riders did it.
MaX.
P.S.
Nobody aged 70 or more saying that 500cc rider were sissies riding with silly helmets, while previous era riders were real men with no helmet at all ?
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 27, 2015, 12:01:54 AM
Quote from: Hawk UK on April 26, 2015, 10:15:49 PM
If Marquez could ride a Classic 500cc GP bike(which I doubt) to the same standard he rides these modern MotoGP micky mouse bikes then I have to agree with you Max. But I guess we'll never find that out because the factories will never let these guys race each other in a Classic GP500 race, even if it was only a one off exhibition race for the fans. :P
Classical argument. First you doubt he could, then you said anyway we'll never find out.
I'm more open, who knows. 500cc riders were not an alien breed, at least no more than others that came later.
Mickey mouse bikes ... yeah sure ... come on man, you're smarter than that ...
You should know by now how much I like to wind-up modern 4 stroke fans, Max. Hehe ;D
Yes it is what it is today and I doubt it will change back for the better, but by riding with so many computer controlled aids these days MotoGP leaves itself well open for taking the micky out of in my opinion when comparing to the classic 500GP era.
It's just the same for modern F1 compared to the classic era; but even F1 have realised that too many computer aids were destroying the sport and have now cut down a lot from what it was before. A big step in the right direction in my opinion. ;)
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 27, 2015, 12:01:54 AM
Quote from: Hawk UK on April 26, 2015, 10:15:49 PM
Marquez will never be able to surpass that achievement.
That's exactly what others were saying about Rossi when he started, or Schumacher when he started ...
Time moves forward (and only forward), but some people seem to have a problem with that. I call them the "romantic".
I do have a problem with bike aids that takes away the skill of a rider to govern and better his own performance. In my opinion, yes they have moved forward, but at the same time have destroyed a riders ability to use his own raw talents to control a bike. This has resulted in so many riders with lesser talents being able to compete at the same level(given the same bike).
Take away the throttle, suspension, and TC computer control systems on these modern 4 strokes and I would have just the same respect for MotoGP as I have for 500GP. Even Rossi has stated that the MotoGP bikes are easier to ride than the 500cc GP bikes were and that because of that he found the 500GP bikes more exciting to ride.
Romantic? Yes. But for good reasons in my opinion. :P :)
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 27, 2015, 12:01:54 AM
Quote from: WALKEN on April 26, 2015, 10:28:07 PM
When Valentino retires so does the passion in my heart! There will never be another Rossi for my era, impossible.
Same as above :)
@WALKEN: I must admit that's what happened to me when "Sheene", "Roberts", and then "Spencer" retired, but then we had the great era's of the 1990's - 2001 with many great riders coming through.
But I would add that riders in the modern era don't hold that extra awe and heroism for me simply because of all the riding aids that are in operation today. Raw talent goes a long way in making a sportsman a hero in peoples minds, and unfortunately(at no fault to the riders), modern MotoGP riders can never have that unless FIM ban computer controlled riding aids.
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 27, 2015, 12:01:54 AM
Quote from: Hawk UK on April 26, 2015, 10:15:49 PM
Rossi is probably the greatest Motorcycle Grand Prix rider there has ever been and has the record to prove it. :P :)
I can agree no problem on that, especially from the results point of view. But surely the fact he also won on 500cc is not a factor for me.
He's good because he's good, not bacause he won on 500cc bikes. Plenty of less good riders did it.
MaX.
P.S.
Nobody aged 70 or more saying that 500cc rider were sissies riding with silly helmets, while previous era riders were real men with no helmet at all ?
Well I guess this comes back to the fact that the 500cc GP bikes were harder to ride and therefore required greater skills to ride than modern Moto GP bikes, and there's the reason for my huge respect for riders of that era compared to the riders of today, also why Rossi is so respected and regarded as the greatest there's ever been, because he has proved himself in both era's.
In reply to your "Post Script" Max: I don't believe GP riders have ever ridden without helmets in one form or another(the old "Piss-pots" for example)?
But I'm sure if helmets had become computer controlled(eg. possibly by changing their shape according to air flow for example) then older riders would surely be taking the piss out of modern riders helmets too. Lol :P ;D
Hawk.
PS: I am glad that riders have stopped using inflating air bags inside their leather suits. That was just taking things to an even greater "Micky Mouse" level! Lol ;D
Quote from: Hawk UK on April 27, 2015, 07:57:40 AM
Well I guess this comes back to the fact that the 500cc GP bikes were harder to ride and therefore required greater skills to ride than modern Moto GP bikes, and there's the reason for my huge respect for riders of that era compared to the riders of today, also why Rossi is so respected and regarded as the greatest there's ever been, because he has proved himself in both era's.
Are you aware that somebody could jump in and argue that Sheene/Roberts/Spencer's bikes were easier to ride than whatever came before them ?
The farther you go back in time, the harder the bikes were to ride: this is close to be the very definition of a good bike (for sure, from a manufacturer point of view).
And luckily (for us), bikes tend to get better over time.
I'm very in favor of dropping *some* electronics, but the position "electronics is bad" is silly, for both bikes and cars.
It would be no different from saying "suspensions are for kids, real men ride with rigid frames, because suspensions helps you too much in taking that bumpy corner at crazy speeds".
And let's not forget the tires: let's all run on 60's tires, modern ones are so much better that it's too easy ... why not saying "I'm sure Rossi would suck on 60's tires, but we'll never know because of the conspiracy of tire makers (or honda)" :)
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 27, 2015, 08:32:52 AM
Quote from: Hawk UK on April 27, 2015, 07:57:40 AM
Well I guess this comes back to the fact that the 500cc GP bikes were harder to ride and therefore required greater skills to ride than modern Moto GP bikes, and there's the reason for my huge respect for riders of that era compared to the riders of today, also why Rossi is so respected and regarded as the greatest there's ever been, because he has proved himself in both era's.
Are you aware that somebody could jump in and argue that Sheene/Roberts/Spencer's bikes were easier to ride than whatever came before them ?
The farther you go back in time, the harder the bikes were to ride: this is close to be the very definition of a good bike (for sure, from a manufacturer point of view).
And luckily (for us), bikes tend to get better over time.
I'm very in favor of dropping *some* electronics, but the position "electronics is bad" is silly, for both bikes and cars.
It would be no different from saying "suspensions are for kids, real men ride with rigid frames, because suspensions helps you too much in taking that bumpy corner at crazy speeds".
And let's not forget the tires: let's all run on 60's tires, modern ones are so much better that it's too easy ... why not saying "I'm sure Rossi would suck on 60's tires, but we'll never know because of the conspiracy of tire makers (or honda)" :)
MaX.
LOL! I like your style of argument Max! Hehe ;D
But seriously, you cannot be comparing the advantages of computer controlled systems on a modern MotoGP bike with the total non computer controlled advances made in the past classic era's? Surely not?? Lol ;D
The point is that in past era's prior to MotoGP it was the combination of rider talent and bike, now it's getting to the stage were a lot(
but I stress not all) of a riders skills are being replaced by what the computer systems deem possible while riding the bike. That is wrong! It should be purely the riders skill to use the bike without any computer interference or computer aids to ride that bike to it's limits. This is not the case in the modern MotoGP era. This is really the only argument I'm making here; that it should be totally rider skill on a bike without any computer related/controlled aids. That is what real racing is all about...... Simple as that. :)
Hawk.
its like unprotected sex, the stakes are higher and no one knows the exact limit but its more exciting.
Quote from: Hawk UK on April 27, 2015, 09:10:58 PM
LOL! I like your style of argument Max! Hehe ;D
But seriously, you cannot be comparing the advantages of computer controlled systems on a modern MotoGP bike with the total non computer controlled advances made in the past classic era's? Surely not?? Lol ;D
Well, according to your reasoning, yes I can.
Riding a bike with bad suspensions at he same pace than a bike with good suspensions requires more skill (no matter if the two suspensions have or not any electronics associated). So you're in favour of giving crap suspensions to everybody just for the sake of it ?
Some electronics is bad, some is debatable. Saying everything must go is nonsense.
Many keep forgetting that this is a constructor championship too (and primarily, despite the fact the public falls in love with the riders more, and rightly so).
No constructor would like to run in a championship with rules from 20yrs ago. They have simply no interest.
Again, top-classes like motoGP and F1 are all about technological challenge. By definition. Want something simpler ? Go SBK, STK, cb500 cup, ...
Quote from: WALKEN on April 27, 2015, 09:46:15 PM
its like unprotected sex, the stakes are higher and no one knows the exact limit but its more exciting.
Right, this is what I think the "old-schoolers" love: the adrenaline of riding something that is not rideable. But even in the 500cc era (towards the end) somebody realised that a bike with less power but a better power-curve was a better bike. An guess what ... it was Honda :) Damn these pragmatic guys ...
MaX.
P.S.
Hope beta7 is coming out soon, so that we can stop talking crap just for lack of anything better to do :)
There's only one talking crap Max.
In fact if all your posts are removed from this thread, it becomes an enjoyable read!
Quote from: nuovaic on April 28, 2015, 06:43:00 AM
There's only one talking crap Max.
In fact if all your posts are removed from this thread, it becomes an enjoyable read!
Now that's a post that truly goes miles into making the thread enjoyable. Thanks Nouvaic !
MaX.
P.S.
I'm ready to bet hard on the fact Hawk has read no offense in the "talking crap" above, as he can see that I said "we" (which includes myself in "the crap"). And as he's a grown up.
(http://www.racing4fun.de/download/file.php?id=5460&mode=view)(https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xtf1/v/t1.0-9/10382624_1036141143066278_7622015845743246944_n.jpg?oh=2019958f220b0880cb0a0597213789f5&oe=55A1D112&__gda__=1440313786_b93ec51b5d16d291730f91e931a001d0)
ohh thats not nice jan... 8)
hehehe great pics JJ ;D
Lol.... Nooooo.... Absolutely no offence taken at all by Max's comments! ;D 8)
Me, Max and some others have had these debates many times before over the years. Some things we agree on, others we don't. Max is a 4 stroke fan, I'm a hard 2 stroke fan and never the twain shall meet on this subject. Just the way it is.... But I do enjoy these debates from time to time in my efforts to try and convince others of, what I see in my opinion, as the insanity of the way Motorcycle GP Racing has gone since the demise of the 2 stroke era. But that is not to say that as a huge Motorcycle GP fan since I was 9 years old back in 1973, that I do not still enjoy watching and following modern MotoGP. This season in particular is gearing up to be one of the all time great seasons! Let's hope it continues to be as exciting as it's been so far this year. ;D
Basically all I'm saying is to ban all computer controlled aid devices on bikes to allow the riders to show their true skills in riding a GP motorcycle.
Motorcycle racing is and should rightly be all about man and machine working in unity together to get the best performance possible, and the introduction of computer aids has to me been like taking an artists masterpiece and then pissing all over it for the sake of commercial gain. Let's take a step back towards a true sporting spirit. But yes, this is surely one of those situations were a step back in time would do the sport the world of good in the true fans eyes?
As far as the factories are concerned: The biggest mistake FIM made was to allow the factories to dictate the way the sport should develop. The factories are purely interested in sales and development to that end; they don't really give a dam about the riders so long as they have the best riders available at any particular given period in time. In fact I'd certainly say that it is the fans that care more about the riders than the factories ever will..... But if FIM continue to allow the bike factories to dictate the on-going direction of MotoGP then the factories will continue to develop whatever they think will give them an edge over their opponents no matter what the effect on the sport as a whole.
The fine line between true sport and commercial gain is a delicate one to balance for the benefit of both parties..... I personally think that since the demise of the 2 stroke era, MotoGP has crossed that line by a large margin for the worse.
Basically MotoGP has sold it's soul in my opinion. :P
Hawk.
Love those pics JJ!! Hehe! ;D 8)
Hawk.
Let me in big boys, I want my two pennerth! ;D
Quote from: Hawk UK on April 28, 2015, 11:23:20 AM
Basically all I'm saying is to ban all computer controlled aid devices on bikes to allow the riders to show their true skills in riding a GP motorcycle.
Hawk.
Generally speaking I would agree because I also have romantic memory tendencies. :D
And we all remember Dani P falling immediately once Marquez took out his 'traction control sensor'. But then I read Dani's quote:
"Marc always rides at the limit – it seems like he's crashing all the time but he's not crashing." and it made me think that 'rider assists or not' as long as the bike is being ridden at the limit of its capabilities, and this is only achievable by a select few, then nothing has changed really:
Quote from: Hawk UK on April 28, 2015, 11:23:20 AM
man and machine working in unity together to get the best performance possible
On the flip side I am also an F1 fan getting disappointed that the limit is perhaps easily reachable by any 'Joe', and the Joe that drives is the one with the fattest cheque book, not the best one.
Another reason I am a 'Cup' race fan - all the machinery the same, let the best man win.
Quote from: Hawk UK on April 28, 2015, 11:23:20 AM
Me, Max and some others have had these debates many times before over the years. Some things we agree on, others we don't. Max is a 4 stroke fan, I'm a hard 2 stroke fan
Slightly inaccurate: give me a 2s that is a better engine than a 4s, and I'll take the 2s. Give me an electric engine better than a 4s, and I jump on the electric engine (*). Give me an engine that runs with cola + mentos and is better than a 4s, and I'm in for it. I just don't think that is doable within today's rules (except the cola+mentos, which may be ok). But that's another debate :)
(*)
btw: http://video.corriere.it/prodigi-dell-energia-pulita-moto-elettrica-batte-ferrari-bmw/a333e8f6-e500-11e4-845e-5bcd794907be (http://video.corriere.it/prodigi-dell-energia-pulita-moto-elettrica-batte-ferrari-bmw/a333e8f6-e500-11e4-845e-5bcd794907be)
Quote from: Napalm Nick on April 28, 2015, 01:17:41 PM
Let me in big boys, I want my two pennerth! ;D
Please join, it's an open discussion (well, for most definitely).
Quote from: Napalm Nick on April 28, 2015, 01:17:41 PM
Generally speaking I would agree because I also have romantic memory tendencies. :D
And we all remember Dani P falling immediately once Marquez took out his 'traction control sensor'. But then I read Dani's quote:
"Marc always rides at the limit – it seems like he's crashing all the time but he's not crashing." and it made me think that 'rider assists or not' as long as the bike is being ridden at the limit of its capabilities, and this is only achievable by a select few, then nothing has changed really:
Exactly. Another argument: Rossi was good with 2s and good with 4s. He said "modern" bikes are easier to ride (which is true): but this means that riders can push harder on them. And it seems he can push them a tad harder than the average motogp rider, even today.
As far as a bike allows you to reach the edge, skill will always be needed. Do the current bikes allow the riders to reach the edge ? I guess so, given the number of accidents.
The Pedrosa crash has also led to a ton of hilarious comments like "Look what happens when a modern rider has no TC". I hope anybody sees why this reasoning is wrong.
OK, just in case some don't get it: TC being switched off instantly and without the rider knowing would be like changing your max engine power from 200hp to 400hp (or changing from a warmed up tire to a cold one), instantly and without the rider knowing. The 1st time he pins the throttle exiting a turn, he will fall the same. Pedrosa (and all the others) are capable of riding that bike with no TC. It would just be more dangerous and they would lap slower. Not even sure it would be more spectacular to watch.
Quote from: Hawk UK on April 28, 2015, 11:23:20 AM
On the flip side I am also an F1 fan getting disappointed that the limit is perhaps easily reachable by any 'Joe', and the Joe that drives is the one with the fattest cheque book, not the best one.
F1 is a total mess, I agree no problem on that: way too much money involved. Used to follow pretty closely, now if the race is before 11am I don't even bother to wake up. Yawn ...
MaX.
Yes I agree with the Dani/TCS reasoning. I mean if Marquez had emailed him saying he would be switching off TCS at that corner then Dani wouldn't of banged open the throttle I'm sure!
I love the Electric bikes. I surprise myself sometimes that I'm so keen to embrace them considering my romantic old-days-were-the-best general attitude. Maybe I am young after all.
I think it was at last years TT that the electric bikes matched the same Average Lap times as the 80's petrol bikes yet no-one hardly raises an eyebrow. To me that's amazing!. And they are improving much faster than petrol bikes ever advanced.
I quite like the electric bikes! Downside is the weight and lack of noise haha. Id have to tape a ghetto blaster on the thing and ask Warlock to make me some sounds 8) ;D
They have potential to be very fast and im sure they will be hopefully sometime before we run out of fuel :D
That is just one of the big points I'm making..... The fact that Dani says that Marc is riding on the limit all the time...... That would not be possible if there were no computer controlled aids.
Kenny Roberts stated that he usually rode at 95% most of the time and only rode to the limit when he felt he definitely had to take the risk of doing it, but then only rode at 100% for a maximum of 1 or 2 laps at most because sooner or later the bikes would kick you down the road, so it was a big risk in the Classic GP era, and certainly not a tactic that would win you a world title.
This is just another part of riding skills that you need to know just how far and for how long you could ride a classic bike on or near it's limits, a skill that yes is also needed on MotoGP, but not to the same level by any means it seems.
Also it has been stated by MotoGP riders that the current computer controls do allow lesser talented riders to race at a greater level than they would otherwise have the talent to do so; okay yes, this does lead to closer racing throughout the field, but at what expense? As I said above: MotoGP has lost it's soul. :P :)
Hawk.
PS: Max. I had a feeling you'd say that, as I also know you are of a technical mind and therefore it follows that you would admire any engine that you feel is the best for the job in hand. But the best for the job isn't always the best for the environment or bike sales, politics or whatever, but is the best for motorcycle GP's. I guess you know what kind of engine I'm talking about. Lol ;D
Hawk.
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on April 28, 2015, 03:26:03 PM
I quite like the electric bikes! Downside is the weight and lack of noise haha. Id have to tape a ghetto blaster on the thing and ask Warlock to make me some sounds 8) ;D
They have potential to be very fast and im sure they will be hopefully sometime before we run out of fuel :D
I agree.... Electric bikes would potentially be very quick, but to replace a real engine with an electric engine, especially in GP's? I would be whole heartedly against that for sure. Just look how lame the electric car GP's sound and look..... No atmosphere at all... it is very boring to watch. Just goes to show how much sound goes towards the spectacle of motor sports. Hence I Warlock and others have been saying about the sound in GPB needs eventually to be looked into to give the best immersion possible. :)
Hawk.
would be interesting to put a motogp racer on a roadracing track from IRRC, Southern 100, NW200, armory, scarborough or ulster gp.
there you can see how comfortable rider are with their machines or not.
yea its dangerous and that why you NEVER can go over the edge of your skills like marc does, he would be simply dead if would ride all the time on "his" 105%.
a track is closed and in comparison to rr its not dangerous at all to race there above your personal limits.
btw. roadracing happens at present time with modern bikes.
Quote from: Hawk UK on April 28, 2015, 03:36:16 PM
That is just one of the big points I'm making..... The fact that Dani says that Marc is riding on the limit all the time...... That would not be possible if there were no computer controlled aids.
Totally understand where you are coming from Hawkster but this begs my next question:
So why doesn't everyone do it? Don't they have the
skill required? Getting away with it can't be down to all luck? ??? ;)
But generally I agree - no electronic aids is best. Maybe get rid of some of those pesky mechanical aids too - like brakes! hahahaha yes I'm being pedantic sorry.
Quote from: JJS209 on April 28, 2015, 03:54:32 PM
, he would be simply dead if would ride all the time on "his" 105%.
yeh Road Racing is more a test of Man, Machine and Ball circumference :o. I would like to think Marc would reign it in if he tried it like any sane person would.
Quote from: Napalm Nick on April 28, 2015, 04:16:22 PM
Quote from: Hawk UK on April 28, 2015, 03:36:16 PM
That is just one of the big points I'm making..... The fact that Dani says that Marc is riding on the limit all the time...... That would not be possible if there were no computer controlled aids.
Totally understand where you are coming from Hawkster but this begs my next question:
So why doesn't everyone do it? Don't they have the skill required? Getting away with it can't be down to all luck? ??? ;)
But generally I agree - no electronic aids is best. Maybe get rid of some of those pesky mechanical aids too - like brakes! hahahaha yes I'm being pedantic sorry.
Quote from: JJS209 on April 28, 2015, 03:54:32 PM
, he would be simply dead if would ride all the time on "his" 105%.
yeh Road Racing is more a test of Man, Machine and Ball circumference :o. I would like to think Marc would reign it in if he tried it like any sane person would.
Well.... I would say that now Rossi is on a competitive bike and putting Marc under pressure we see the results of Marc's ability and attitude on track(I mean what a plonker he was in the last race... He just threw it all away), and I hate to say it, but if Marc doesn't start using his head we could well see Marc getting seriously hurt this year. Either that or he'll seriously hurt someone else in the process.
As far as why doesn't everyone do it? Well no matter whether your on a bike with computer aids or not, you still need a competitive bike to compete at the front, a few have those bikes, most don't. But I would say all current MotoGP riders are riding on or very close to their bikes and their own limits most of the time due to computer aids giving them the confidence, consistency and stability to be able to do that.
Hawk.
PS: I absolutely agree with JJ about Marc on real road race circuits..... I get the feeling Marc doesn't know how to ride less than 100% all the time, so I'd advise him to stay away from real road racing for his own safety sake.
Quote from: Hawk UK on April 28, 2015, 05:23:36 PM
PS: I absolutely agree with JJ about Marc on real road race circuits..... I get the feeling Marc doesn't know how to ride less than 100% all the time, so I'd advise him to stay away from real road racing for his own safety sake.
I've just read an interview with him in the Guardian newspaper where he actually says he only thinks of first place and must try to learn how to settle for tactical points when needed. It proves your feeling is correct and I respect him more for realizing it. Hopefully he would give the same answer as Valli if asked about road racing "no its too dangerous".
I'm still not convinced how having electronic assists makes any difference - its still a test of man and machine to maximum capability and will always be even when the magdrive hover bikes with warp drive come along. However your point of it possibly levelling the field is an interesting one making me think deeply........if I was the best rider without assists then the bikes changed to having assists and suddenly we are all similar speed then yes assists are bad. Is that happening?.....I honestly don't know. Pass me another red wine...
Its a shame its not like GPBikes should be - assists make riding easier, but ultimately slower encouraging people to master the skills.
Its a good discussion we are having, shame there is no BBQ here
Edit. Hang on a minute I might be seeing your light - if the 'limit' is considered to be at 100% with assists but anyone can ride at 90% before it gets tricky then the field will be tight. Remove the assists and anyone can ride at 50% and the rest is proportional to your skill then the field may be more loose. And maybe no-one needs to be at 100% all the time and certainly not 105%.
I think we are on the same page Hawky.
But all the 100% vs 50% stuff is purely on the paper: riders are out at 100% (when it matters, of course). Then 100% on a modern bike may mean something else from 100% on a bike from 30 yrs ago, sure.
Anyway, I didn't dislike the 500cc era (big Doohan supporter here): I loved it. I just happen to love current motoGP too, maybe because I don't buy the "you need less skill" argument or maybe because the races can be just as spectacular as before.
Quote from: Hawk UK on April 28, 2015, 05:23:36 PM
As far as why doesn't everyone do it? Well no matter whether your on a bike with computer aids or not, you still need a competitive bike to compete at the front, a few have those bikes, most don't.
This was very true even in the 500cc era (just finished reading an article describing how honda "hampered" Cadalora and his non-factory honda in order to favour Mick and his HRC).
Only way out is what Nap was saying (cup races, same material for everybody). But cup races do not interest constructors, especially as top-level class.
Road racing is madness (personal opinion, of course). I'm sure I'd love to spectate a TT, but that wouldn't change what I think about RR.
No wonder no track rider wants to try it. You may think "they don't have the balls". Notice however that I haven't seen a lot of RR riders aligned on a motoGP grid neither ... and the salary is surely better in motoGP ...
MaX.
That's interesting about Marc's interview with the Guardian Newspaper.... I hope he is seeing the light at last because he's too good a rider to make silly mistakes and throw away championships. Let's hope. ;)
Nick, I'm glad you can understand what I'm trying to say here. It would be easy for others reading what I post here to think that I don't like the modern MotoGP.... Nothing could be further from the truth. I also love the current MotoGP era too Max... and certainly the last two races have proved just how spectacular modern races can be. But, and it's a big BUT. Lol. I still feel that in the classic era of the 2 stroke GP's the bikes required more sensitive and direct skills to ride those bikes to their limits than todays 4 stroke bikes do with their computer aids....
I'll give you an analogy to compare: If a pro golf player had a putter with a computerised laser aiming device drawing the putting line on a green to get the ball into the hole, there would still be some skill involved in making the weight of a putting stroke correctly to get the ball to follow that line into the hole, would anyone consider this a cheat? Would anyone consider this a device that reduced the amount of skill the golf player required to putt the ball into the hole? I'd say absolutely they would consider it a cheat and ban it immediately!
Too right Dani fell off when his TC system failed, simply because he'd learned how to ride with computer assistance and didn't expect to ride without it, which just shows how much a difference it does make. :P
Golf is similar to motorcycle racing in that for the golfer it's about man and golf club working as one to achieve an objective; with a GP rider it's about man and machine working together as one to achieve an objective. So any aids that rely on a computer are taking away a great deal of skill required to achieve those objectives. That to me is cheating pure and simple. For sure it's not any fault of the riders that they have to ride with mickey mouse bikes, it's FIM and the factories fault for ever letting MotoGP get to this sad state of affairs.....
I say let's step back and get back to a situation were the rider has total control of their bikes without any computer aids whatsoever. Real racing, purely with man and machine like it should be. Let's get back to seeing who the real hero's are! :P ;D
Hawk.
Yes we must not forget Marc is still very young and under a lot of pressure. I really admire him, I like his attitude, his considered yet natural responses to questions, the fact he doesn't need a lollipop and his infectious enthusiasm. I like his ethos and I really love that a race/scrap on track is the most fun for him. To me he is a bit like Valli, appearing to enjoy his work more than most.
Yes this year could be the best [modern] MotoGP year yet and even better once Crutchlow and Bradley decide they have let the others have enough of a points head-start. :P
Right, Im off for a game of golf with Mickey, now where did I put that laser...........
Quote from: Hawk UK on April 28, 2015, 08:45:48 PM
I say let's step back and get back to a situation were the rider has total control of their bikes without any computer aids whatsoever. Real racing, purely with man and machine like it should be. Let's get back to seeing who the real hero's are! :P ;D
Sure, if you want yamaha, honda, suzuki, ducati and aprilia leave motogp, that sounds like a good plan ;D
Maybe some brit constructor could jump in then ;)
MaX.
OMFG................. thousands die in an earthquake and nobody gives a shit, but M brakes his lil ol pinky and your all up in arms about it?
Shit its a finger not the end of the world and the only thing that matters is the guy is doing the best he can!
My families moto is "To Try Is Enough" its for a reason, because thats all that counts, he who dares wins, no matter if he loses. give the man a break and if you cant......................YOU get out there and try to keep up with him on ANY bike, he will kick your ass!
Why do you argue over such menial poo? It wont make GPB better and even if this is the off topic thread, its all about us loving bikes and riding, so why not spend as much time as you do in this thread putting energy into helping GPB be better?
F&^% lil fingers there only good for pickin ya nose anyways! (I do know it matters for clutch control, been there done it)
Just saying
DD
Tire vs tarmac limit.
There is a limit to speed around any given track with any given machine. The 2 vs 4 stroke debate in a real world application is moot. Regardless of what your riding there is a limit and that limit is almost like swinging a bucket of water around in a circle where the force is keeping it pinned to the outside edge or bottom of the bucket. The same theory applies with motorcycle physics (speed vs dimension).
If you purposely build a bike to go faster than what the dimension of the track allows you would never find the limit of the track but only the limit of how far you can push the limitless machine crating a limit within a limit.
The variables are vast in each corner and scientifically you could basically crate the perfect limit between the two hence a slot racer.
The interesting part of racing is the human element, man vs machine. Perfection in this regard is poetry when everything flows together. The further we introduce mechanics over human ability the more we flirt with the romantic notion.
Will somebody pleeeeease think about Orville. That poor, poor lil guy :'(
Quote from: WALKEN on April 28, 2015, 10:00:11 PM
The interesting part of racing is the human element, man vs machine. Perfection in this regard is poetry when everything flows together. The further we introduce mechanics over human ability the more we flirt with the romantic notion.
Perfectly said WALKEN! ;D ;)
Quote from: doubledragoncc on April 28, 2015, 09:57:31 PM
OMFG................. thousands die in an earthquake and nobody gives a shit, but M brakes his lil ol pinky and your all up in arms about it?
Shit its a finger not the end of the world and the only thing that matters is the guy is doing the best he can!
My families moto is "To Try Is Enough" its for a reason, because thats all that counts, he who dares wins, no matter if he loses. give the man a break and if you cant......................YOU get out there and try to keep up with him on ANY bike, he will kick your ass!
Why do you argue over such menial poo? It wont make GPB better and even if this is the off topic thread, its all about us loving bikes and riding, so why not spend as much time as you do in this thread putting energy into helping GPB be better?
F&^% lil fingers there only good for pickin ya nose anyways! (I do know it matters for clutch control, been there done it)
Just saying
DD
Don't you think we're doing enough to help improve the GPB experience already? LOL ;D
Nice to see you back giving us some grief DD. Lol ;D
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 28, 2015, 09:57:02 PM
Quote from: Hawk UK on April 28, 2015, 08:45:48 PM
I say let's step back and get back to a situation were the rider has total control of their bikes without any computer aids whatsoever. Real racing, purely with man and machine like it should be. Let's get back to seeing who the real hero's are! :P ;D
Sure, if you want yamaha, honda, suzuki, ducati and aprilia leave motogp, that sounds like a good plan ;D
Maybe some brit constructor could jump in then ;)
MaX.
Oh, I doubt very much that would happen.... but if they did, I'm sure the Brit's could do a much better job than the Japs... We've always been the mother of invention throughout history given the need. For some reason we just seemed to roll-over and let them take over the market at the time.
We could bring Norton back to GP's as a starter.... That was a great bike with the Rotary Engine! I seem to remember there was some controversy about defining it's capacity and therefore it's class at the time the bike first hit the tracks many years ago? Arhhh, good memories! ;D
Hawk.
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on April 28, 2015, 03:26:03 PM
I quite like the electric bikes! Downside is the weight and lack of noise haha. Id have to tape a ghetto blaster on the thing and ask Warlock to make me some sounds 8) ;D
jsjssjjjsjs ;D
the day i hear this on GP, im off to Sailing or fishing :P
https://www.youtube.com/v/QnBvi8uXsq4
I like technology , but a bike that sounds something like a garage door ;D is a bit too far for me.
LOL Warlock I know what you mean..............wish my 3D printer didnt sound so gay, toodlydoodlydiddlydoo is driving me nuts.........wonder if I can get Max to write a sound program so it sounds like a bike lol, but yeah electric cars and bikes are missing that vital part the heart craves..........BIG Explosions happening real quick with lots of power behind them lol.
DD
Quote from: Warlock on April 29, 2015, 12:24:42 AM
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on April 28, 2015, 03:26:03 PM
I quite like the electric bikes! Downside is the weight and lack of noise haha. Id have to tape a ghetto blaster on the thing and ask Warlock to make me some sounds 8) ;D
jsjssjjjsjs ;D
the day i hear this on GP, im off to Sailing or fishing :P
https://www.youtube.com/v/QnBvi8uXsq4
I like technology , but a bike that sounds something like a garage door ;D is a bit too far for me.
+1 Warlock! ;)
This is progression in some peoples eyes.... but talk about ripping the soul out of MotoGP... Yeah, this would be the death of it for me. :P
Hawk.
I like it
Quote from: Hawk UK on April 28, 2015, 11:18:11 PM
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 28, 2015, 09:57:02 PM
Sure, if you want yamaha, honda, suzuki, ducati and aprilia leave motogp, that sounds like a good plan ;D
Maybe some brit constructor could jump in then ;)
Oh, I doubt very much that would happen.... but if they did, I'm sure the Brit's could do a much better job than the Japs... We've always been the mother of invention throughout history given the need.
Yeah right. And it's OK to use inches, feet and yards, pounds and ounces, drive on the left, singing "God save our gracious Queen", ... :)
Quote from: Warlock on April 29, 2015, 12:24:42 AM
I like technology , but a bike that sounds something like a garage door ;D is a bit too far for me.
It sounds more like a freakin' Tie Fighter to me.
A Tie Fighter that will smoke anything at any traffic light. And you wouldn't even need an aftermarket exhaust :)
As the biker's version of the Dire Straits would say: Torque from nothing (not sure about the chicks for free though).
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 29, 2015, 07:11:49 AM
Quote from: Hawk UK on April 28, 2015, 11:18:11 PM
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 28, 2015, 09:57:02 PM
Sure, if you want yamaha, honda, suzuki, ducati and aprilia leave motogp, that sounds like a good plan ;D
Maybe some brit constructor could jump in then ;)
Oh, I doubt very much that would happen.... but if they did, I'm sure the Brit's could do a much better job than the Japs... We've always been the mother of invention throughout history given the need.
Yeah right. And it's OK to use inches, feet and yards, pounds and ounces, drive on the left, singing "God save our gracious Queen", ... :)
MaX.
I thought everyone in UK still uses inches, feet and yards, pounds and ounces, drive on the left, singing "God save our gracious Queen". I do! Lol ;D
I wondered why some of those braking points on some tracks seemed a little weird in distance.... I bet the markers were done in metres by our Euro track author friends! Now I know why I overshoot some corners! LOL :o
Now I'm wondering which tracks have braking points in yards and which in meters? Hehe
Hawk.
Quote from: Hawk UK on April 29, 2015, 04:16:52 PM
I wondered why some of those braking points on some tracks seemed a little weird in distance....
Lol !
MaX.
lol lol ;D don't forget PSI!!
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 29, 2015, 07:11:49 AM
It sounds more like a freakin' Tie Fighter to me.
A Tie Fighter that will smoke anything at any traffic light. And you wouldn't even need an aftermarket exhaust :)
As the biker's version of the Dire Straits would say: Torque from nothing (not sure about the chicks for free though).
MaX.
Lol , ok , watch this,... then Dire Straits would say : Amperes for nothing ;D (the song would sound quite bad though lol)
https://www.youtube.com/v/IhtS88vVnMM
Quote from: Warlock on April 30, 2015, 02:01:10 AM
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 29, 2015, 07:11:49 AM
It sounds more like a freakin' Tie Fighter to me.
A Tie Fighter that will smoke anything at any traffic light. And you wouldn't even need an aftermarket exhaust :)
As the biker's version of the Dire Straits would say: Torque from nothing (not sure about the chicks for free though).
MaX.
Lol , ok , watch this,... then Dire Straits would say : Amperes for nothing ;D (the song would sound quite bad though lol)
https://www.youtube.com/v/IhtS88vVnMM
Music to my ears! Nice one Warlock! ;D 8)
https://www.youtube.com/v/LFgUBDMrIQs
Hawk.