Double Dragon donated quite a few parts, and even left me a design that I carelessly let disappear with a computer, so I never actually got to see what the inner workings were truly about, so I hemmed and hawed about how to go about making anything work from this pile of parts I had in my hands. I finally decided I wasn't going to be a stupid caveman level idiot and do something about this stuff, build something... first I had to overcome my fear of wires... no idea why, but the moment I put my hands on a loom I get spastic spells of anger and rage, dunno what it is really, just hate dealing with wiring. Too many Honda's I reckon. ::)
Just about to give up I found a flight simulator forum, seems they build far more intelligent designs than the few controls a motorcycle has! Should be easy enough to find what I am looking for there, so, I peruse many a thread reading about wiring, theory of engineering, material strength (pfffffff, I'll use STEEL!!), and find all that I need to understand how to wire pots, and what alphabetical and numerical combination they belong to on this curios "plug and play" board Mr. Dragon had left behind in the bitter cold north woods. Was I really on to something or had I gone in over my head? I couldn't tell at that point... honestly it felt like the world had somehow changed a bit.
The last 2 days have been spent burning cedar and oak in the wood stove, heating the area around my mill and lathe, welder, and associated motorcycle building paraphernalia, I was feverishly modifying parts, changing things, and working on a grand design that only the most sick of motorcycle minds could recognize as none other than a ratbike. As it took shape I was realizing I had created a monster, a moving, living, breathing piece of machinery that actually lived if I just gave it a jolt of live electricity, it was MY Frankenstein, and it was all in the name of motorcycles!
After some bugs, some fixes, and a bit of testing, I can't recommend this enough, if you can find it in you to piece together whatever you can to make something like this beast happen, DO IT. The feeling of GP Bikes with grips in your hands and levers on your fingers is worth more than any words.
Developing the stand and control positions fully inspired and parts by DDCC (pots, steering shaft, bearings, bar mounts, pot levers):
(http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu175/RatFighter/20141201_185521_zps2278d06a.jpg) (http://s645.photobucket.com/user/RatFighter/media/20141201_185521_zps2278d06a.jpg.html)
Steering by DDCC (steering shaft, center spring mount plate, pot levers/pots) :
(http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu175/RatFighter/20141201_185502_zps56dc0c40.jpg) (http://s645.photobucket.com/user/RatFighter/media/20141201_185502_zps56dc0c40.jpg.html)
And once I went ballistic on the whole setup with my own crazy motorcycle builder attitude about how things should work and all that nonsense:
(http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu175/RatFighter/20141203_004352_zps717a7090.jpg) (http://s645.photobucket.com/user/RatFighter/media/20141203_004352_zps717a7090.jpg.html)
Very nice, aren't jubilee clips wonderful ;)
Hi Grimm. Thank you for mentioning my name and giving me credit, it means a lot to me coming from you. Only thing you missed that is important is the BU0836X USB control board from Leo Bodnar I left you. Its the best board to use. How dose it work for you and how easy did you find it to work with? So others know.
BU0836X 49 GBP from Leo Bodnar in UK
Im so happy to see you use the parts at last. Looks like you did a really good job too, I know how you are about working with certain things.
How do you like the SPSS steering everyone says is wrong?
It will feel better if you lengthen the distance from the bars to the axle hole as in pic below
(http://iasystems.tk/pics/Backplate14Tb%20stripped.jpg)
Also use stronger springs for brake and clutch for better feeling, throttle looked perfect. I use 38mm for ease of fitting as in pic below. I am working on a better way to make the feeling more realistic with better action too.
(http://iasystems.tk/pics/38mm%20spring.JPG)
Hope that helps a bit. Feel free to ask for any help.
Great to see you do it!!!
DD
Wiring the board was the simplest and easiest part of the whole thing. Plug "signal", "ground", and "power" into each corresponding position (literally plug them in, no soldering or splicing) weather it is X, Z, Y, RZ, etc. axis and use the viewer program to verify the range of the pot after plugging the board itself into the USB port on the computer. Couldn't be easier... and I thought that was going to be the hard part. ::)
Space constraints and the fact this is 90% wheelie practice in the offseason is why the bars are so close to the pivot point, but, they do sweep to the same lean angle that the bike on screen moves to. Riding on board feels right. If I got a set of drag bars like the inspiring concept for this project it would lower them quite a distance, or just flipping over these Ninja 650R bars would drop the steering point low enough to feel correct and likely give more space for routing the cables. As the project progresses I'm sure it'll end up bullet proof and able to really take some abuse.
In short, the SPSS steering feels intuitive and correct, I'm not thinking about it when I want the bike to go left or right, I just do it without thought.
Last night was the first and only time I've gotten a chance to test this thing out, as far as springs I do need a stronger one on the throttle, the clutch is okay but could use some more resistance as well. I also found out that the throttle needs a stopping pin, without a wide open throttle point it feels like you are constantly twisting to find more, a limit would be ideal. I've got a handful of springs from digging through boxes of motorcycle parts too, I'll swap them around until I find a solid one that feels like a rack of carbs.
DD, regardless of personal whatever you want to call it, it would be low and complete bullshit to not credit you where credit is due. I would much rather see GP Bikes keep moving forward than to allow history to prevent both of us sharing what we know and learn about proper motorcycle controllers with the community here. I would have left the forum long ago if I didn't believe in the effort of Piboso and the community that stands behind him.
On a person note though, you remember me talking about "Buttercup", well here she is:
(http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu175/RatFighter/20140929_205254_RichtoneHDR_zps91f373e8.jpg) (http://s645.photobucket.com/user/RatFighter/media/20140929_205254_RichtoneHDR_zps91f373e8.jpg.html)
And my summer wheelie training consists of this... my neighbors think I'm a lunatic... not too far off from the truth either:
(http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu175/RatFighter/vlcsnap-2014-07-30-19h05m05s176_zpsad6cea5a.png) (http://s645.photobucket.com/user/RatFighter/media/vlcsnap-2014-07-30-19h05m05s176_zpsad6cea5a.png.html)
Hi Grimm great news. It is so refreshing to hear someone and especially someone I know who really knows how to ride a bike in real life. I have been fighting on the forums for years about my SPSS because nobody has used it except those in Florida. Thanks once again for the credit and also for the
kind response with respect of a fellow rider both on the road and in the sim world.
I have designed a box that can be used for any control you want. It can be connected by cable, push/pull rod or pulley. it means you can simply have real controls with cables and they simply use the existing cable to connect to the box which is wired to the BU. You could even just disconnect the cables from your carbs, clutch and if drum brake while they are on a real bike and simply hook them on my MTE box and they would work in GPB or whatever you want. It will mean more people can build their own systems easily.
I am putting a patent on the SPSS but I dont mind guys here using it. I just want to help if I can.
I will be opening the new business in January to February 2015 so look for the adverts coming to your favorite forum soon lol.
Did I leave you the designs for foot controls too? As your a special person I will be emailing you some designs that should work best for your purpose.
Love the photo of Buttercup, I think about her once in a while and remember the time in WI. Thank you to you all. The old GS1000 tank brings back memories too, dang Im old lol. See you still got the old car there did you get it finished?
BTW since when do YOU worry about stopping opening the throttle lol.
Well have fun riding it and dont forget to ask if you need any help mate.
DD
Quote from: grimm on December 03, 2014, 06:12:08 PM
I also found out that the throttle needs a stopping pin, without a wide open throttle point it feels like you are constantly twisting to find more, a limit would be ideal.
I had the same issue, an easy way to sort it is to put some kind of solid material in the throttle body itself. I used wood and can easily add a bit more or cut it down, this way you also put no strain on the cable or what it's connected to.
(http://i58.tinypic.com/2ynqqnl.jpg)
(http://i60.tinypic.com/34zj98o.jpg)
It is better to put a stop at the potentiometer end that saves the pot and if you have one that adjusts it is better. It is better if you make it so you can tune the pot movement for a more precise control.
DD
Quote from: doubledragoncc on December 03, 2014, 12:05:43 PM
How do you like the SPSS steering everyone says is wrong?
I actually think it's very smart for a non-FFB system.
MaX.
Max, you would not believe how much it DONT need FFB as your body reacts in a way that really makes you forget about FFB. This is on my system as you actually lean your weight onto the bars like on a real bike. With it just sitting in front of you its not the same, but your to deep into riding that the whole FFB thing just would not work without one hell of a strong motor as the forces it would have to work against are far greater than having to make a wheel spin.People need to start thinking about the fact that it is NOT a steering Wheel system.
It is so good to see teeds and Grimm liking the feeling. I am helping cdx build a system too so soon there will be a few in the UK and you should come and try it out.
Early next year I will be opening the new business and then I will be able to say more about my new product line. It will allow more people to make systems pretty easily and not too expensive.
Keep up the great work guys it rocks
DD
Im not sure FFB is needed.. Not like the FFB you have in wheels anyway..
A real steering damper would do the trick!
When you counter steer on a bike, its not a forcefull thing.. Your arms should be as relaxed as possible..
To get force feedback for tankslappers etc. Id say you would have to go with the ''bars on top of a ball''.
So you push forward on your left hand, the bars turn right and tilt to the left. Inside the ''ball'' you could have some sort of ffb system for all movements/angles..
No idea if it exists or if its do-able or not lol
Does any of that even make sense? lol.
Maybe a magnetic sphere object that can also spin on its axis, to allow the handlebars to turn l/r aswell as roll, yaw whatever the words are..
That would be perfect for a desktop handlebar setup.
Im just thinking aloud here.. Anyway, back to work before it rains lol ;D
Hi BOB, your on the right tracks in thinking. In order to have the right FFB for the right situation on a bike there are so many different movements at the bars you have to think about.
1. The slapper !!! (not the kind of woman from the UK either) but tank slapper is a wobbling effect, so on the horizontal axis from left to right.
2. The dive. (not your best friends trashy room) but a down and away movement from you action as the forks compress.
3. The lean, couldn't think of a funny one for this, the bars follow the bike on a vertical tilt as the bike leans over.
4. The lift, where the bars come up and at you as the front wheel lifts when you wheelie.
5. The twist (not the Rock n Roll dance) but the bars turning on the horizontal and staying turned as you slide the back end round.
6. THE BIGGY or THE COMBO, this is where any of the above happen at the same time yowza!!!!!!!!!!
Now try to make a steering system that can move in all of those axis at the same time and power them with damn strong motors because unlike a steering wheel that only has to fight the muscles in your arms and wins real easy, a set of handlebars is fighting your WHOLE body and all the muscles in it, even the one on your third eye when it gets squirmy in the curves in the rain!!!
I have a few concepts I have been playing with but it is hard to do and keep my SPSS steering which works so good for no FFB. The ball idea is one I have also been playing with but it is cost that stops a lot of designs so far. I am sure that the way the controller threads have been going on GPB in the last few weeks we will find a compromise especially now more have started using my SPSS system and like it.
Keep the brain farts coming guys we can do it.
Keep it sunny side up, as sunny side down burns ya bum!!!
DD
Quote from: doubledragoncc on December 04, 2014, 12:37:42 AM
Max, you would not believe how much it DONT need FFB as your body reacts in a way that really makes you forget about FFB. This is on my system as you actually lean your weight onto the bars like on a real bike. With it just sitting in front of you its not the same, but your to deep into riding that the whole FFB thing just would not work without one hell of a strong motor as the forces it would have to work against are far greater than having to make a wheel spin.People need to start thinking about the fact that it is NOT a steering Wheel system.
I guess it all depend on the goal one has. If you plan to use the controller without DST, then yes, FFB is not needed and some simple feedback (like the one your system provides or like a simple damper as bobr6 said) is enough. Notice however that on this kind of systems (just like with a pad or a joystick) you could have your bars at a given angle while the in-game bars are at a totally different angle.
It may not be a steering wheel system, but it's still a steering system and in reality you do get torque feedback from the handlebars.
Notice that I don't think the motor strength should be an issue: current wheels (like a g27) are pretty strong and with a 900deg range. For a bike thing we only need 40-60deg, so you can gear down the thing and get more torque (but you'll lose a bit as the bars are wider than the wheel diameter). I think it's doable, but the market is just too little for it to be interesting as a product (for something like Logitech).
MaX.
Interesting work about steering torque:
http://www.iaeng.org/publication/WCE2010/WCE2010_pp1257-1262.pdf (http://www.iaeng.org/publication/WCE2010/WCE2010_pp1257-1262.pdf)
For sure if you want a good and realistic behaviour/feeling then you will need FFB.
As HornetMax said, DC motor or servomotor is not he main problem...the way you control it will be the most difficult part...(I'm working on it :D )
For cost reason, it's obvious a "no FFB" system would perfectly work for a small amount of money but in my opinion, the feeling will be far from reality :-\
Thanks for the link wkp.
I fully agree about the FFB points. My point is trying to get a system for EVERYONE out firstly as not all folks have that much money laying around for controllers. I am also going to make FFB rigs and all without FFB are designed to be upgraded to FFB later to spread costs from the start.
We have many threads around the forum on GPB and I think we need to bring them together. I am trying to build my website right now and have a video chatroom already for anyone to use if they wish to discuss controls, or anything without waiting for a response as on here. I will make a dedicated section of the site purely for people like us wishing to build systems or having any ides to share.
(link removed- PM me for explanation) WALKEN
DD
Grimm, your controller is looking nice!
It makes me even more eager to have a go at making someting similar with DD's help. GPB will be even more fun in the new year :)
DD, I'll give you a shout on Sunday. I'll be getting a lighter travel bag, so I'll be able to haul a bit more stuff in January :)
Cool D, we can make some designs that fit your bag lol. I got some ideas to play with. Hardest part is the headstem but I got it covered dude.
DD
Okay, sorted a few more bugs, beginning to think this thing is going to be pretty solid after I finalize all of it and package it properly in terms of cables and wiring run through holders so they are not just hanging all over the place. Still yet to build a stop for the throttle but a tighter spring has severely limited the range so during calibration I just keep an eye on how far I turn it to clock it to the proper needed 1/4 turn amount. I free'd up the time away from life long enough to hack together a quick up and downshift button set on the left handlebar. Works wonders to actually be able to upshift in a wheelie. ;)
(http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu175/RatFighter/20141206_181211_zpsf2154d8f.jpg) (http://s645.photobucket.com/user/RatFighter/media/20141206_181211_zpsf2154d8f.jpg.html)
Also grabbed a few detailed shots of the board and wiring, seems there isn't much documentation on basic form/function on these things. Allow me to change that. ;)
(Steering on far right, then clutch, brake, throttle on the left in red, green, black.)
(http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu175/RatFighter/20141206_181329_zps62f55110.jpg) (http://s645.photobucket.com/user/RatFighter/media/20141206_181329_zps62f55110.jpg.html)
Buttons on the left side looking at it in the pic, just dumped them into an easy spot really. Two wires each, one is upshift, the other down.
(http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu175/RatFighter/20141206_181256_zpsbece76d5.jpg) (http://s645.photobucket.com/user/RatFighter/media/20141206_181256_zpsbece76d5.jpg.html)
The Cressida is a sad story.... sparing the details as they don't matter much, I hit a huge deer going about 35mph and completely ruined a huge amount of the corner of it. Though a small block ford engine on fireblade carbs will reside where the strait 6 is battered and bruised now, it'll never be the same. Poor thing finally hit a limit with wear and damage, time to million dollar man this thing. lol. Just glad I wasn't on a bike when it happened.
Still have a set of brand new axles for it, new tires, new brakes, completely rebuilt the front end over the summer too. Was just happy with it, and was out painting the back roads with black marks a few hours before the deer strike. Ended up having to walk 5 miles in the pitch dark to get back to camp after it happened. Trust me, when your phone is at 13% battery, no reception, and your car is totaled on the side of the road with nobody and nothing for miles in every direction you find a good perspective on not being the top of the food chain in bear and wolf country!
(http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu175/RatFighter/IMG_20140824_135233733_HDR_zps94c3ecbf.jpg) (http://s645.photobucket.com/user/RatFighter/media/IMG_20140824_135233733_HDR_zps94c3ecbf.jpg.html)
A week before the end of the Cressida as I knew it, I bought a 1982 Datsun 810... aka, the first Nissan Maxima, just so happens they had a 6 cylinder diesel four door option, kinda what I've been into all my life. So I bought it for $500 and quickly stashed it away for future awesome to happen. The car itself will probably end up a V8 swapped monster, and the diesel will definitely be in a small pickup truck before any real amount of time passes.
(http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu175/RatFighter/20140818_175440_zpsac9c3721.jpg) (http://s645.photobucket.com/user/RatFighter/media/20140818_175440_zpsac9c3721.jpg.html)
Hi Grimm, so sorry about the car I know how much she meant to you.
I thought I would give a bit more info on the BU0836X control board you are using. It is important to understand that it is plug and play and Windows recognizes it for a direct input device. When using it with GPB or MXB it is okay as such the way you have wired it, but for many other programs, even MotoGP or GP500 there are rules to follow and to be honest best kept to even in GPB as Windows has set perameters for input devices.
Firstly, steering inputs should always be the X axis, when you configure it in Windows and you calibrate it, Windows automatically WANTS to see an X axis input, if it does not see one it will not calibrate 100%, the system will work but not properly. PLEASE always use the X axis for steering.
Secondly for throttle and front brake you want to use the next in line axis from the X axis. I highly recommend using the
Y axis for Throttle and the Z Axis for the Front Brake.
Third is the Clutch if used. It is best to use the Axis know as Slider for the Clutch
Forth is the Rear Brake if used. It is best to use the Axis marked Dial for the Rear Brake.
Fifth is for other Analog inputs, namely rider movement best achieved by using a mini joystick like on a XBOX controller. These are about $7 with the breakout board to wire and mount them. Use the RX,RY and RZ for these controls.
Most games by Milestone and Capcom and many others need additional software like the xbox360cemu.v.3.0 which you can find online. You will need to follow the instructions and manually change the ini file to get the right axis working.
Last but not least. Gear Shift should be the first digital button inputs so B1 and B2. This is important as many games have set recognition parameters on digital button numbers.
Here is one of my wiring diagrams.
(http://iasystems.tk/pics/Wiring1thumbsticks.jpg)
MJRV is Mini Joystick Right Vertical axis MJLH is Mini Joystick Left Horizontal etc. etc.
Pic below shows Clutch with a Mini Joystick for rider movement
(http://iasystems.tk/pics/MK2%20Clutch%20lever.JPG)
I hope this helps you Grimm and anyone else that needs info on building controllers.
Keep up the great work Grimm, your doing so good for a man scared of wiring lol.
Last bit of advice to save on wiring. The BU0836X is very stable and almost indestructible. You do not have to run all the ground wires per buttons, you can have say 4 buttons and only need one ground and the 4 inputs saving 3 wires. You
can also do this with potentiometers but only if you must. This helps when using certain connectors with only so many contact point.
Have fun all
DD
Just thought I better add some info on cables. The end of the cable that actuates the potentiometers needs to move freely. What I mean is that if it rubs on the inner cable housing or is connected by means of a grub screw or anything else it will not last too long and snap. It is best to keep points like this in mind when building a controller. It is worth a buck or two more at the start than having to get a new cable after it broke during a race!!! Oh and DO NOT use lube or oil on new cables as the Teflon inside will clog and seize the cable!!!
My new components I have designed will allow for more people to build their own systems quite cheaply compared to a car wheel system.
Ever thought of using the front section cut off a push bike, it would seem if you cut the upper and lower frame tubes six inches behind the steering tube and welded them to a plate this would supply a roller bearing steering tube, cut the forks off and allow the stem to hang down to give your swing steering. Always a pile of old kiddies bike at our local scrapyard.
Good idea in many ways h106, but it is actually going to make it harder than easier for many reasons if you do that. I wont go into it but at the end of the day the steering headstem needs to be able to be desktop and on a frame mountable, so using an old bike frame will limit it use and cost of parts for a NEW headstem with bearings is only $20.
I sat down with cdx on Sunday and we made a new headstem unit that is for all types of mounting. It is easy to build and pretty cheap too. I will post designs when I make them for public use later this week.
Sometimes a few bucks/pounds more saves a lot of work and money in the future.
DD
I know this thread is about making handbar controllers.
I've had a design in my head for a while, that I think would work out well give all the movements you need to do everything manual in GP Bikes, being able to clap it to a desk, and move it. Alls modular so you can change handle bars. I'd never be able to use it personally, lol. Because of my disabilty but I'm sure others would. :)
What I'd really like is a X-Box controller with 2 extra triggers, slightly inside and forward of the main triggers. Then I can have Throttle and Front brake on the right hand triggers, and the left triggers clutch and rear brake. That I could use. :D
Quote from: Klax75 on December 10, 2014, 08:54:54 AM
What I'd really like is a X-Box controller with 2 extra triggers, slightly inside and forward of the main triggers. Then I can have Throttle and Front brake on the right hand triggers, and the left triggers clutch and rear brake. That I could use. :D
I'd like that too. How do you plan to use the two right triggers ? Both with your index or one with the index and one with the middle finger ? I'm more for second (index + middle), but not sure how precise one could be when using both fingers.
MaX.
Right now I use both my index and middle fingers on both hands. The index finger I use for the bumpers for shifting. And the middle fingers for Throttle and Front Brake.
With four triggers, my middle fingers would do double duty for each triggers. Would just depend on a good positioning of the new second triggers.
you could try using them paddle things GRT was talking about that go underneath the pad? might help you more than others whilst using dst?
Usually the paddles I've seen adding on to a controller just double a existing button or trigger to a new spot. Not add a new set of inputs.
Hi Klax. Can you post a pic of what you mean. I have done a fair amount of robotic engineering and might have a way to help. Nothing is impossible buddy and I would like to help. My new product is designed to help people with disabilities too as it is a box that can be used for input and has many ways it can be used. You can even use a piece of string as a throttle lol.
DD