PiBoSo Official Forum

Please vote and comment.

By the way... At the moment it's already possible to manually change gear even if autoshift is enabled. Should this be changed?

Can max or other explain what's the thread significate, because i don't understand. Thx

If you mean to be able to lean the rider whenever you want no matter if you already have auto rider lean on, then yes. But I really cannot see any advantage for wanting to do that, unlike being able to override auto gear change. Is there a big advantage to using manual rider lean? No one has ever explained the advantages or disadvantages regarding the auto-rider lean function. Maybe you will enlighten us? ;) :)

weight distribution, i tried  f/b manual lean some time ago and when braking, if you move back the rider, you can do hard brakes

If i have well understand, piboso ask us if we want an override for the rider lean? If i think yes, i vote yes?
I wanted that for a long time, because the rider goes in front only about 150km/h, and when we are in a mounted and not full gaz the the pilot recovers and the bike is easier to get up, even if you do not want. Like on a big bump, I release the gas, and the stability becomes bad.
I want the override lean.

Quote from: janaucarre on February 19, 2014, 06:39:07 PM
If i have well understand, piboso ask us if we want an override for the rider lean? If i think yes, i vote yes?
I wanted that for a long time, because the rider goes in front only about 150km/h, and when we are in a mounted and not full gaz the the pilot recovers and the bike is easier to get up, even if you do not want. Like on a big bump, I release the gas, and the stability becomes bad.
I want the override lean.

So is this why the auto-rider does strange things with the bike when you quickly flick from left to right? Would using manual lean override the auto-riders confusion in this scenario?

PS: I voted yes.

Just to clarify, Piboso's question is the following: right now, rider lean is either fully manual or fully automatic. What he's asking is if, when rider lean is automatic, you would like to still be able to "override" the automatic behavior. For example: rider tucks-in at 150Kmh usually when in automatic mode; if you want to make it tuck-in at a lower speed, today you have only one option: full manual lean. With what Piboso is evaluating you will be able to use auto-lean and manually tuck-in when needed. Sort of: if you don't give any rider lean input, then it leans automatically, but if you give some input, then it does what you're telling him to do.

My opinion: more that 99% of the players do no use manual rider lean (rough estimation), most likely because it requires one or two extra axis to work with. It's complex (but that's just a matter of training) and barely fits on a joypad with all the other controls (that's likely the real reason). Having "auto lean with manual override" does not change anything to that: you still need 1 or 2 extra axis, so I doubt it will become popular between players.

That said, having it makes sense: if you don't want to use it, nothing changes with respect to now. If you want to experiment without going "fully manual" then you'll have a way to do so.

Personally I'd prefer to improve the current "auto rider lean" logic to make it smarter (I'm not sure how though).

Quote from: PiBoSo on February 19, 2014, 05:49:37 PM
By the way... At the moment it's already possible to manually change gear even if autoshift is enabled. Should this be changed?

Yes. Even if nobody uses autoshift after 1 week :)

MaX.

I felt a lot of difference between manual or auto rider lean. I used to have full manual rider lean when I was riding with a keyboard (until beta2), and is a lot more stable braking and doing chicanes. Also, you can play with the rider weigth for avoid the loose grip in banked curves.
Could be cool to manual override the leaning help as if you are without help, sometimes is difficult to manage all the buttons at a time, but in some cases could be very usefull.

 I would like to override the forward lean at times it seems to slow even for me.

Not the most important thing that needs doing but a good little touch I guess for later

One question:
For example in a chicane you dont want the rider to lean, how do you avoid rider to lean? . I think this can only be done if you use full manual rider lean, right?
If this is right what is the purpose of having override?

Anyway i will vote yes,  it can't be harmful for how we already ride.

For me when using full manual lean, sometimes when in a corner and I can feel the front end start to shake. I will position my rider back behind the wind screen instead of hang off the bike and I can usually get through the turn fine then. Once the shaking stops I can lean back in with the rider.

I strongly vote yes here.... it is a feature I have wanted to be implemented for quite a time now. I just never asked because I thought it wasn't the right time...

I see two major advantages that will make me use this:
1) this way one can progressively learn to use manual lean
2) easy way of making micro adjustments when cornering
3) tuck-in whenever I want
4) in turns that have rough surface or other irregularities this could be used to avoid crashes

Quote from: HornetMaX on February 19, 2014, 08:36:40 PM
[...] barely fits on a joypad with all the other controls

so true, we need more buttons/axis on a controller  :-\ I would still be able to assign the rider lean, but other useful functions on the controller will have to be swapped to keyboard... I hope one day we will have an official "GPB controller" - btw Piboso, this could be a nice way to generate revenue by designing a useful custom-tailored controller that fits the needs of us ;)

Quote3) tuck-in whenever I want
4) in turns that have rough surface or other irregularities this could be used to avoid crashes

+1
:)

Quote from: Stout Johnson on February 20, 2014, 09:44:13 AM
2) easy way of making micro adjustments when cornering

That's not so sure. As said by Warlock above: the rider in auto mode leans in a chicane, imagine you don't want him to lean, how would you do that ?
I mean, in override mode, if you leave the stick centered, this has to be interpreted as "stay with automatic" ... It may also be complicate in other situations.
I'm not sure how Piboso would handle that.

If the override mode "adds" to the auto-lean signal, then if he leans left and you don' t want him too, you'll have to "counter lean" ... hmmm ...

Quote from: Stout Johnson on February 20, 2014, 09:44:13 AM
so true, we need more buttons/axis on a controller  :-\ I would still be able to assign the rider lean, but other useful functions on the controller will have to be swapped to keyboard... I hope one day we will have an official "GPB controller" - btw Piboso, this could be a nice way to generate revenue by designing a useful custom-tailored controller that fits the needs of us ;)

The problem is that we have only two thumbs: a third stick on a joypad would not help.
Seems to me the only solution is to add pedals (that's already doable) and use them for some functions (e.g. clutch and rear brake) freeing one existing stick for rider movements.
E.g. left stick horiz = lean, right stick = rider lean (fwd/back, left/ right), triggers = throttle + front brake, pedals = clutch + rear brake.

It sucks you  can't buy standalone pedals at reasonable price: either you buy a wheel (and only use the pedals) or you have to buy top-notch pedals that cost a fortune.

Another thing that may help (a little) is having a joypad with 3 or 4 triggers instead of only 2: you could use them for clutch, rear brake, throttle and front brake, leaving a stick for rider movements.
They'd have to be positioned in a way you can use them independently (e.g. with different fingers) though: like right index finger = throttle, right middle finger = front brake, left index = rear brake, left middle = clutch.

BTW I'd be already very happy if somebody was capable to build a proper joypad (2 sticks, 2 triggers), with quality sticks (gimbal mounted, good resolution, durable), with square travel of the sticks (instead of circular travel), with adjustable tension (maybe), not braking after 6 months etc. It is doable and it is not very expensive: people in the RC world have very nice quality sticks on their radios.

MaX.

It would be great to have a gear lever type foot controller for the gear shift. I gear shift with my foot pedals from my F430 at the moment, and I have to use the left pedal for downshift and the right pedal for upshift. So yeah, it would be great to have foot pedals/levers that acted the same as a motorcycle gear and brake foot levers.

Would also be great to have a handlebar controller with throttle/front brake and clutch levers.  ;D

Quote from: Hawk_UK on February 20, 2014, 12:21:51 PM
It would be great to have a gear lever type foot controller for the gear shift. I gear shift with my foot pedals from my F430 at the moment, and I have to use the left pedal for downshift and the right pedal for upshift. So yeah, it would be great to have foot pedals/levers that acted the same as a motorcycle gear and brake foot levers.

Well, gear changes are "digital" actions, so buttons should be enough, no ?

MaX.

Quote from: HornetMaX on February 20, 2014, 11:25:55 AM

Quote from: Stout Johnson on February 20, 2014, 09:44:13 AM
2) easy way of making micro adjustments when cornering

That's not so sure. As said by Warlock above: the rider in auto mode leans in a chicane, imagine you don't want him to lean, how would you do that ?
I mean, in override mode, if you leave the stick centered, this has to be interpreted as "stay with automatic" ... It may also be complicate in other situations.
I'm not sure how Piboso would handle that.

If the override mode "adds" to the auto-lean signal, then if he leans left and you don' t want him too, you'll have to "counter lean" ... hmmm ...

good point there... but that's a very particular point I was not referring to. I meant the "normal" leaning in long corners, where I can make smoother adjustments via rider leaning ;)

but you are right, how this will be handled for staying neutral has to be figured out... counter-leaning would be a solution, but hard to get used to I guess....

Quote from: HornetMaX on February 20, 2014, 11:25:55 AM
The problem is that we have only two thumbs: a third stick on a joypad would not help.
Seems to me the only solution is to add pedals (that's already doable) and use them for some functions (e.g. clutch and rear brake) freeing one existing stick for rider movements.
E.g. left stick horiz = lean, right stick = rider lean (fwd/back, left/ right), triggers = throttle + front brake, pedals = clutch + rear brake.

not for me... I would guess (don't know as such a pad is not available yet) that having a normal stick left and 2 small sticks on the right (that are placed above each other) would allow to use the left one for steering, and the upper small one for rider leaning and the lower for clutch etc....

Quote from: HornetMaX on February 20, 2014, 11:25:55 AM
Another thing that may help (a little) is having a joypad with 3 or 4 triggers instead of only 2: you could use them for clutch, rear brake, throttle and front brake, leaving a stick for rider movements.
They'd have to be positioned in a way you can use them independently (e.g. with different fingers) though: like right index finger = throttle, right middle finger = front brake, left index = rear brake, left middle = clutch.

THAT is a nice proposal ... more triggers would be very much needed -  as I said, this could be a nice device which would sell great among motorcycle sim riders.... any entrepreneur around here who is willing to dig into this market niche? ;)

Quote from: HornetMaX on February 20, 2014, 12:48:58 PM
Well, gear changes are "digital" actions, so buttons should be enough, no ?

MaX.

right!

Quote from: Stout Johnson on February 20, 2014, 01:04:48 PM
not for me... I would guess (don't know as such a pad is not available yet) that having a normal stick left and 2 small sticks on the right (that are placed above each other) would allow to use the left one for steering, and the upper small one for rider leaning and the lower for clutch etc....

Quote from: Stout Johnson on February 20, 2014, 01:04:48 PM
THAT is a nice proposal ... more triggers would be very much needed -  as I said, this could be a nice device which would sell great among motorcycle sim riders.... any entrepreneur around here who is willing to dig into this market niche? ;)

In my opinion, the niche is per se way too small: when you also consider that the device will probably cost in the 80+ Euros, that makes it even smaller.
That's probably why we don't have one yet and, likely, never will. Just the same as a good quality handlebar (which would be great, unless you also want to handle rider lean manually).

:(

MaX.

Quote from: HornetMaX on February 20, 2014, 12:48:58 PM

Quote from: Hawk_UK on February 20, 2014, 12:21:51 PM
It would be great to have a gear lever type foot controller for the gear shift. I gear shift with my foot pedals from my F430 at the moment, and I have to use the left pedal for downshift and the right pedal for upshift. So yeah, it would be great to have foot pedals/levers that acted the same as a motorcycle gear and brake foot levers.

Well, gear changes are "digital" actions, so buttons should be enough, no ?

MaX.

If, like myself, you would like to have a controller more like a real motorcycle Throttle/Gear, brake and clutch levers, then of course the answer to your reply has got to be, "No".  :P ;D

Quote from: Hawk_UK on February 20, 2014, 01:58:37 PM
Well, gear changes are "digital" actions, so buttons should be enough, no ?

If, like myself, you would like to have a controller more like a real motorcycle Throttle/Gear, brake and clutch levers, then of course the answer to your reply has got to be, "No".  :P ;D
[/quote]
For added realism OK, you could have a lever (two actually, including rear brake).
But for practical considerations, a handlebar with buttons to gear up/down looks more reasonable.

Sh@rk (on the french forum) had one of this built merging a G27 with a pocket bike handlebar and little more electronics: I think his solution (an "add-on" to a g27) is really smart and would probably sell OK, as many already have a g25/27 so ...

MaX.

Quote from: HornetMaX on February 20, 2014, 01:35:47 PM
In my opinion, the niche is per se way too small: when you also consider that the device will probably cost in the 80+ Euros, that makes it even smaller.
That's probably why we don't have one yet and, likely, never will. Just the same as a good quality handlebar (which would be great, unless you also want to handle rider lean manually).

:(

you are absolutely right MaX, the niche is in all likelihood too small to be profitable... my comment was made with an invisible *wink* ;)

but, m a y b e it could even be produced profitably, if one of the major producers of gamepads would be willing to make one, I think it could be made yielding a return - the costs could be controlled by using parts that are already in use in producing other gamepads. You would only need a new frame (I am not entirely sure if say 2-3 analogue sticks and 4 analogue triggers can be "transferred" from the gamepad to the computer? - but I guess with new cables that should be possible). And for me, personally, if there was a quality gamepad with 4 analogue triggers, I would pay up to 150,- for that... so with relative small production costs you could possibly make it profitable... and once on the market such a gamepad might come in handy for other games as well and would make it stand out from others