Watching Motogp today i came to a conclusion. I`ve been thinking and saying this for quite a while now, but today i was 100% certain.
Our Motogp bikes are too slow in the corners. Watching the real guys do it today they carry alot more lean angle & corner speed, and also they flip the bike from side to side alot quicker. Since Beta 3 i always felt the bikes felt too heavy and drove more like a street bike then a MotoGP protoype.
Same goes for the 500 imo. That thing has such low corner speed and lean angle at the moment that you can`t tell me with dry eyes that that`s realistic? These things had a minimum weight of about 135 kg`s. That`s insanely light, and you don`t have the feeling at all that you`re driving a light 500cc 2 stroke.
Just my 2 cents...
i'm sure that if there was a way to fell the force feedback like in car sims you would change mind
Why? It`s a visual thing. You can SEE the bike flicks from left to right very slowly compared to real life. You can SEE the lean angle is too low compared to the real guys. I don`t need any forces telling me these things...
yeah but that comes from 2003, lean angles were different, i think around 50°
or maybe we should use direct lean to lean like in real life
JamoZ does have a point, the lean angles are not correct in GP Bikes. Modern GP Bikes lean over more than you can in GP Bikes, just look at your MAX Plugin to see that. :)
Classic racing would be different, the lean angles were not as much as today simply because tyre tech is more advanced these days with more grip etc,etc....
Murasama = RC211V 2003.
Qualifying time on Philip Island (Victoria) that year : 1'30
Best lap on GPB : 1'25
We are not to slow compared to reality, we are too fast. Electronics and engineering in general made bikes going faster and faster, but remember that Murasama simulates a 11 years old bike :)
Quote from: RiccoChicco on April 13, 2014, 08:03:33 PM
Murasama = RC211V 2003.
Qualifying time on Philip Island (Victoria) that year : 1'30
Best lap on GPB : 1'25
We are not to slow compared to reality, we are too fast. Electronics and engineering in general made bikes going faster and faster, but remember that Murasama simulates a 11 years old bike :)
Too fast yes... but are lean angles correct to real life?
Quote from: Hawk_UK on April 13, 2014, 08:07:51 PM
Too fast yes... but are lean angles correct to real life?
i think yes
these day`s the do arround 64 degrees
I agree, at least on the newer GP prototypes (Ducati GP12), the largest possible lean angle is too small.
And the 500s are way too hard to flick from one side to the other. A 500 GP bike weighs 130 kg with fuel and with the V4's counter-rotating crankshafts, the gyroscopic effects are almost non present compared to superbikes.
Quote from: RiccoChicco on April 13, 2014, 08:03:33 PM
Murasama = RC211V 2003.
Qualifying time on Philip Island (Victoria) that year : 1'30
Best lap on GPB : 1'25
We are not to slow compared to reality, we are too fast. Electronics and engineering in general made bikes going faster and faster, but remember that Murasama simulates a 11 years old bike :)
Yes + 1000 on this...... top speed in real life 340 km/h (Victoria) Try this with Murasama lol....... corner speed is too fast and top speed to slow.
Quote from: RiccoChicco on April 13, 2014, 08:03:33 PM
Murasama = RC211V 2003.
Qualifying time on Philip Island (Victoria) that year : 1'30
Best lap on GPB : 1'25
We are not to slow compared to reality, we are too fast. Electronics and engineering in general made bikes going faster and faster, but remember that Murasama simulates a 11 years old bike :)
Don`t forget the "game" factor here. Of course you`re going to be faster then real life. You have no fear of crashing or damaging anything when you`re sitting behind your monitor. You can push it way harder then when you would be doing on a real bike on a real race track. My point it mainly that it`s a visual thing. Lean angles don`t seem right, and the cornering speed feels very slow compared to what you saw them do in 2003/2004 on the 990`s. Go watch any old race on youtube to see that both their lean angles & cornering speed is way higher then what we have now on the murusama. Of course no physics engine is perfect and neither is the engine of gpbikes, but i just wanted to start the discussion on this as i feel that our bike handling feels a little bit off of what you`d expect from a MotoGP prototype...
Quote from: JamoZ on April 13, 2014, 09:17:10 PM
Quote from: RiccoChicco on April 13, 2014, 08:03:33 PM
Murasama = RC211V 2003.
Qualifying time on Philip Island (Victoria) that year : 1'30
Best lap on GPB : 1'25
We are not to slow compared to reality, we are too fast. Electronics and engineering in general made bikes going faster and faster, but remember that Murasama simulates a 11 years old bike :)
Don`t forget the "game" factor here.
This. No one is ever going to do a lap in real life like I do in GP Bikes :P How many times do you fall when doing hotlaps? Right, too many times :P When riding normally (15 laps without crashing) I get 1.28.8 on average, a bit faster than irl. But I'm sure Marquez will do that this year :P
gp bikes is very very close to reality, but there is a virtual driver that allows you to ride the bike in gpbikes, he drives with you, otherwise it would be impossible to drive in a real bike-sim using only a Xbox pad i think. If for example you had a chance to try a driver's seat with handlebar with "direct steering activated " and without automatic lean... you would see a very different behavior ...
Quote from: _oDi_ on April 13, 2014, 10:15:31 PM
gp bikes is very very close to reality, but there is a virtual driver that allows you to ride the bike in gpbikes, he drives with you, otherwise it would be impossible to drive in a real bike-sim using only a Xbox pad i think. If for example you had a chance to try a driver's seat with handlebar with "direct steering activated " and without automatic lean... you would see a very different behavior ...
I've actually tried GP Bikes with "Direct Steer" activated and it's like trying to ride your bike when you been on a bender! Impossible with a normal controller! Hehehe ;D
But talking about times being too fast and it's because of the game factor: Yes, I absolutely agree with that..... This is why I've posted in the past about having, only in race events, the condition that if you fall off then your race is over. This would slow riders down to a more realistic pace for fear of falling off and ending their race prematurely.
But we could only implement this condition when all other factors are solved or it would be very frustrating at the moment because a bike can fall over for no good reason on a lot of the current generation of converted tracks, also you only have to touch another rider and your rider hops off your bike(Not good). Maybe it would be a good idea to implement this option in the server settings when these problems have been sorted? Would make for better and closer racing for sure I believe. What do you guys think? :)
QuoteMurasama = RC211V 2003.
Qualifying time on Philip Island (Victoria) that year : 1'30
Best lap on GPB : 1'25
We are not to slow compared to reality, we are too fast. Electronics and engineering in general made bikes going faster and faster, but remember that Murasama simulates a 11 years old bike
Hmm....
I don´t know where you get your data from but....
Phillip Island = Victoria
2003: (Qualify Results)
1. Rossi 1.30.068 328.0 km/h
2. Capirex 1.30.496 329.9 km/h
25degrees air and 34degrees track temp.
2013: (because 2014 they only did a tyre test on Victoria yet)
1. Lorenzo 1.27.899 337.9 km/h
2. Marquez 1.28.120 342.5 km/h
25degrees air and 38degrees track temp.
Times are driven at nearly the same temperatures but we don´t know the wind intensity and direction.
I agree with you that the bikes in GPB are to fast looking at the lap times!
I´ve noticed that when developing physics for the WSBK.
I look at the lap times in real life for the specific class and year and environment data! I set the temperature to the same level it was in real life where i get the lap time data from.
Then i develop the physics try to getting near the lap times in real life.
My WSBK Honda only reaches 303km/h on the straight of Victoria compared to 320 km/h ridden in real life 2012 on that circuit but i´m 8tenth faster in the lap time and that was not a perfect lap!
And i´m not the fastest one out there, i think that someone is able to do 29´or even faster laps.
The big question is: What makes the difference? Wind intesity and direction? Stronger engine power? Better tyres? Track not correctly build? Bike physics?
Are we really able to determine the root cause?
[BTT]
The lean angle seems to be correct in my point of view...
I agree with Jamoz that something is not correct but i did not know what it is..i was thinking about the tyres....
We should take in mind that it´s still a game we´re talking about , an absolutly fascinating SIM but imho we will never get it 100% real.
The reactions of the bikes are good but for my taste they wheel to much! I´ve never experinced in real life that the front comes up that fast as in GPB! Accelerating from 0 at WOT and you can flip the bike instantly on such bikes is far from real. Speaking about bikes below 1000cc ;)
ODI pointed it out: the "problem" is the virtual rider. The bike flips to much at low speed and is to stable at high speed corner/weight changes.
I agree with the point that the bikes are wheeling to quick.
At least the 500s don't wheelie too quick.
Even my RGV 250 still comes up in 2nd if you're not careful. The 500s have three times the amount of power and weigh 20 kg less.
Judging from my RGV 250 I can also say, that the 500s are too hard to flick. When you watch the Qatar race, even the MotoGP bikes flick faster.
One thing you can try if you feel the bike does not flick left/right fast enough is to use "direct lean": I've always felt that with "direct lean" off (which is the default and what most of you are using) the bike is way too slow to flick. I have direct lean ON and I'm really not planning to change it, even if it makes me slower.
For the rest I do agree with whoever said it above: can't compare a 2014 bike with a 2003 bike. Huge progress in chassis, electronics, tires ...
As far as I understand it, the virtual rider computes the max lean angle from the physics data. For a current motogp bike (e.g. the rcv 211) you may want to have a bit more of grip on the tires compared to the murasama's tires: that should allow a bigger max lean angle.
MaX.
I don't think the bikes are too fast, our tyres just have too much grip! The qualys have so much grip it's insane! So no wonder about that awesome time on GPB.
And not sure about 2003 but our Victoria is very smooth, I doubt the 2003 Philip Island tarmac was that smooth back then.
Another point is the Vic we have is not a laser scanned track, so the layout isn't 100% identical, which can make some difference.
Especially when pushing at the limits, a few centimeter can mean a lot there!
Regarding the lean angle I get up to 61° according to Max Hud so I think thats pretty accurate for a 2003 bike, don't know for sure though.
Quoteour tyres just have too much grip! The qualys have so much grip it's insane! So no wonder about that awesome time on GPB.
Agree on that and additionally the sliding ability is way too small....itßs like one of the Michelin Slicks from 2004.....grip..grip...grip..no grip! Sometimes they loose grip that fast i did not have any clue why...
QuoteAnother point is the Vic we have is not a laser scanned track, so the layout isn't 100% identical, which can make some difference.
+1
the Victoria track is one of the best for GPB but still has some incorrectness on some parts of the track.
QuoteRegarding the lean angle I get up to 61° according to Max Hud so I think thats pretty accurate for a 2003 bike, don't know for sure though.
That´s what i´m saying. Compared to the real tyres the lean angle is correct. MotoGP 2013/14 leans up to 62 degrees....ten years ago the tyres were a bit less grippy. Lean angles up to 60 degrees...
physics is already perfect (i love beta4!), but if we think about how to improve, I agree with those who say that there is slightly too much grip at maximum lean ..
maybe I'm too hardcore ...but I'd like to put more 'emphasis' on the skills of the driver... 8)
Yes.....don't get me wrong i love this game but there's something wrong.....just take WSS and SBK lap time in Aragon __ in real live WSS 2.01---2.02 race pace......SBK 1.57--1.58 race pace. Go now and do some laps with WSS bike on Aragon ( medium tires ) and see lap times in GP BIKES. "We are to fast in corners speed"
aragon is not the same on the SBK/WSS real Champ ;)
@ALEale
you mean Aragon is not the same compared to MotoGP/moto2/3 ;)
WSS and WSBK uses a different track layout than the MGP ones....
MGP use the FIM layout, track length 5078m.
WSS/WSBK use the FIA layout , track length 5344m
There is no difference between WSS and WSBK, both rides on the same track ;)
Quote from: ALEale on April 15, 2014, 10:56:59 AM
aragon is not the same on the SBK/WSS real Champ ;)
Yes .......you are absolutely right. I was wrong...sorry. ( I was trying now the other track layout and it's so much better )
Quote from: C21 on April 15, 2014, 11:05:52 AM
@ALEale
you mean Aragon is not the same compared to MotoGP/moto2/3 ;)
WSS and WSBK uses a different track layout than the MGP ones....
MGP use the FIM layout, track length 5078m.
WSS/WSBK use the FIA layout , track length 5344m
There is no difference between WSS and WSBK, both rides on the same track ;)
sorry my itenglish is bad LOL
i meant that WSS and SBK don't race in the same layout we use on gpbikes ;)
After playing with the 990 again, I have to say that you are right, the lean angles are correct and in my opinion the bikes don't wheelie too quick.
The top speed could be a little higher (at least on new bikes like the GP12).
Still, I think that the 500 is too hard to flick.
You are right with the tyres, if you watch any motorcycle race, they are sliding the rear tyre out of every corner, in GPB it's impossible to do.
was playing with direct lean off... and then trying to smooth it out from drunken crazyness to usable with the smooth settings.
bike felt MUCH lighter but still bit too drunk!
if we could get a slider or something to control direct lean on / assists of direct lean off, i think that could help alot
QuoteYou can't be 1:1 with the times at Phillip Island. The track in the game lacks the elevations and isn't an accurate representation. I think 5s is too much of a gap, I think 2-3s at most from the top top riders would be more relative. In real life those guys are also pushing like hell, the PC game factor doesn't factor that heavily.
Fully agree on that.
Without a laserscaned track there will not be a 100% direct comparison.
Real motogp riders simply lack the skills we posses 8) :P, problem solved.
Quote from: SA_22 on April 17, 2014, 12:40:41 AM
was playing with direct lean off... and then trying to smooth it out from drunken crazyness to usable with the smooth settings.
bike felt MUCH lighter but still bit too drunk!
if we could get a slider or something to control direct lean on / assists of direct lean off, i think that could help alot
I play full many everything and I've turned off direct lean. Took me a little getting use to but I liked it better. Instead of the bike wanting to sit itself up so fast it was more of a slower movement and I could hold it in turns easier, or coming out of turns.
Quote from: SA_22 on April 17, 2014, 12:40:41 AM
was playing with direct lean off... and then trying to smooth it out from drunken crazyness to usable with the smooth settings.
bike felt MUCH lighter but still bit too drunk!
if we could get a slider or something to control direct lean on / assists of direct lean off, i think that could help alot
Moving from direct lean off to direct lean on will take a while, at least 2 weeks I'd say (playing daily).
A while ago I was in favor of the same thing, a slider moving gradually from direct lean off to direct lean on, but to be honest now I don't think people will use it in the end: if you want to play with direct lean on (which I do) then you have to get accustomed to direct lean ... well, on. Not half on or a quarter on :)
For the ones not knowing this yet, the major difference between direct lean on and off is this:
- Direct lean OFF (default and most used): if you're leaning left and want to pick up the bike to be vertical again, then you have to push the stick well right (and then back to the middle). If you just put the stick to the middle, the bike picks up really slowly.
- Direct lean ON: quite the opposite, the bike picks up very fast, so normally you donàt need to move the stick to the right if you just want to go vertical. The connection between the stick position and the bike lean angle is much more direct (hence the name I guess). This of course mean you have to be very gentle with the stick, compared to direct lean off.
Direct lean ON is essentially some sort of filter on your lean input. IIRC, in a private exchange with Piboso, he referred to it as "steering help" or "lean help" (which, personally, I find more appropriate and less confusing with respect to direct steering, which is a totally different thing).
MaX.
yea i've been playing with it alil more... although i'll probably still use it off (when i said off before i ment on :D) for the smoothness,
but i do prefer the control it gives you, especially while switching from left to right and while braking... but having a problem with the front end always tucking when i try pick the bike up and exit a turn
Quote from: SA_22 on April 17, 2014, 02:58:42 PM
but i do prefer the control it gives you, especially while switching from left to right and while braking... but having a problem with the front end always tucking when i try pick the bike up and exit a turn
That's probably because you're not gentle enough when picking up.
Which is not a surprise because with DL off you have to be brutal to pick up, so the habit is hard to go.
MaX.
No matter how smooth i am with direct lean on, it just doesn`t feel right...
Quote from: C21 on April 17, 2014, 07:53:18 AM
Without a laserscaned track there will not be a 100% direct comparison.
Even with a laser scan track you wont be able to, There impossible to ride round even the straights the bike crash's on.
Quote from: JamoZ on April 17, 2014, 06:03:24 PM
No matter how smooth i am with direct lean on, it just doesn`t feel right...
That's exactly what I say, but about direct lean off :)
I guess what matters is really what you start GPB with: if you start with direct lean off (which is the case most of the time, as it is the default), then it's almost impossible to go to direct lean on.
In any case, whatever feels right to one is OK for him. The fact that with DL on the bike is more agile however stands.
MaX.
Being new i have to say. I have direct lean on. Did it with off for couple days and started with it on today. Lap times are same, but it did take a while getting used to.
Dont regret it. Control is much better and feels more realistic too.
Quote from: geofanatec on April 18, 2014, 02:12:05 AM
Being new i have to say. I have direct lean on. Did it with off for couple days and started with it on today. Lap times are same, but it did take a while getting used to.
Dont regret it. Control is much better and feels more realistic too.
In a month time, if you try to go back to direct lean OFF, you'll be disgusted by how slow it is. Welcome to the club :)
MaX.
To each his own, but you can't tell me that direct lean is more realistic. It's as if the rider has some rubber bands attached to his body ;D
Quote from: JamoZ on April 18, 2014, 10:20:21 AM
To each his own, but you can't tell me that direct lean is more realistic. It's as if the rider has some rubber bands attached to his body ;D
I don't think it's more realistic, I think it's easier for the brain to cope with, as you don't need to overshoot the input to go back to vertical. Want to go vertical, just put the stick vertical.
It's also easier to cope with as it is more immediate, more directly linked to the bike lean angle. On the other hand, it requires to be gentle but that's something I'm sure anybody can cope with: you are already required to be gentle with the throttle, for example.
What do you mean by "rubber bands attached to the body" ? If anything, it's without direct lean that the control feels mushy or rubbery (due to the filtering).
MaX.
For me once I turned it off, I kept it off. I had to relearn how to ride, after riding with it off I didn't like how the bike would instantly spring up right so fast with Direct Lean checked.
Quote from: Klax75 on April 18, 2014, 10:45:42 AM
For me once I turned it off, I kept it off. I had to relearn how to ride, after riding with it off I didn't like how the bike would instantly spring up right so fast with Direct Lean checked.
Yes, that's the "be gentle" thing :)
How come you had it on ? As by default it's off ...
I also thing it's a bit harder to use direct lean with rider view, especially until you are able to be, guess what, gentle with the stick :)
MaX.
Was one of those things when I first starting using GP Bikes last summer, I was still learning and it got turned one then a month later I realized it was still on. :/
A lot of people use the sticks like the are D-Pads, and repeatedly tap the stick to keep it in the turn. Like you had to on a D-Pad back in the old days. Were the stick needs more of a fluid motion to work best. My right thumb does kind of a circle motion when pushing forward to when controlling the rider, only time I'm not on the edges of the sticks angle are when I am braking in a straight and have to pull back, then push forward again.
Did a few laps with DL on but found it far away from beeing realistic. The bike moves faster left to right but in Most cases i Crash When returning Out of lean. It doesn't matter if i Return the Stick to the middle or if i Release it only a but. In both cases i Loose the Front.
I will keep it Off.
As far as i can see, DL on controls the rider & bike as one object, while DL off controls the rider weight, which on it's turn controls the bike. Everything i do with DL off makes sense. If i let go off the lean input, the rider will slowly start to sit upright and the bike will follow.
That slow feeling the DL people seem to dislike is just the rider's weight you're transferring and you need to take that into account. Halfway through a chicane you already have to throw the rider to the opposite side to make the next turn. If you are exiting a turn you have to manually lean the rider upright quickly before you apply throttle to prevent highsiding...
dno, these are things that all feel very natural and go without thinking. DL on goes against everything i know about controlling a motorcycle...
But hey, who am i :P
Quote from: JamoZ on April 18, 2014, 10:20:21 AM
...... It's as if the rider has some rubber bands attached to his body ;D
LOL ;D true
Its a "style" thing.
But think about riding, your going through a corner and push bar in desired direction. Equivalent of pushing stick in direction. If you want to turn more in rl you push harder. So in sim you move stick further and push more.
Then when its time for exit you gradually release pressure. Just like you have to do with direct lean on. If you arent smooth with it and release too fast the bike will stand up fast, just like rl. You can be mid corner and instantly stand a bike up if desired.
With dl off thats not possible. However, with it off being smooth is much easier, but slower response.
With it on, you now have the control, just as in rl. So you control how quick the bike stands up. If u just let go of stick quick, which is like not pushing on the bar, yes its going to "spring" back up.
I will say dl off has realism too. Not always do you just release pressure on bar to stand back up. Long sweeping corner, yes. But tight corner, not really. If you want to get vertical quick, you need to push opposite way til there. Just like you do with dl off.
So, at end of day its the feeling you prefer. They are two very different extremes and not one or other is purely realistic. So, i kinda agree a slider bar adjustment would be cool. You could then incrementally adjust toward direct lean on until you find a spot where the bikes reacts and stands up not too slow or too fast for whatever suits your fancy.
Quote from: geofanatec on April 18, 2014, 02:48:09 PM
Its a "style" thing.
But think about riding, your going through a corner and push bar in desired direction. Equivalent of pushing stick in direction. If you want to turn more in rl you push harder. So in sim you move stick further and push more.
Then when its time for exit you gradually release pressure. Just like you have to do with direct lean on. If you arent smooth with it and release too fast the bike will stand up fast, just like rl. You can be mid corner and instantly stand a bike up if desired.
With dl off thats not possible. However, with it off being smooth is much easier, but slower response.
With it on, you now have the control, just as in rl. So you control how quick the bike stands up. If u just let go of stick quick, which is like not pushing on the bar, yes its going to "spring" back up.
I will say dl off has realism too. Not always do you just release pressure on bar to stand back up. Long sweeping corner, yes. But tight corner, not really. If you want to get vertical quick, you need to push opposite way til there. Just like you do with dl off.
So, at end of day its the feeling you prefer. They are two very different extremes and not one or other is purely realistic. So, i kinda agree a slider bar adjustment would be cool. You could then incrementally adjust toward direct lean on until you find a spot where the bikes reacts and stands up not too slow or too fast for whatever suits your fancy.
I have direct lean off, and the bike unless I move the stick to the other side will slowly come up. I am also thinking people aren't setting up there sticks smoothing, under advanced "Lean". I have mine shut off, so my movements are instantaneous. With a high smoothing on even if I release the stick, there is still a few seconds before it goes back to zero position.
To be honest, i recall PiBoSo saying on the old forum that DL is only for wheel users, and should not be used with a gamepad...and i can totally understand why.
Quote from: JamoZ on April 18, 2014, 06:37:57 PM
To be honest, i recall PiBoSo saying on the old forum that DL is only for wheel users, and should not be used with a gamepad...and i can totally understand why.
Yes, I proved with a wheel and works perfect (and using DL off is very weird), but i´m not able to turn it on with the gamepad. 2 options for 2 inputs.
Quote from: JamoZ on April 18, 2014, 06:37:57 PM
To be honest, i recall PiBoSo saying on the old forum that DL is only for wheel users, and should not be used with a gamepad...and i can totally understand why.
Yes I remember that.
Quote from: Ian on April 18, 2014, 07:49:08 PM
Quote from: JamoZ on April 18, 2014, 06:37:57 PM
To be honest, i recall PiBoSo saying on the old forum that DL is only for wheel users, and should not be used with a gamepad...and i can totally understand why.
Yes I remember that.
Well damn, back to off it goes then. Id rather play the way it was meant to be played.
Quote from: JamoZ on April 18, 2014, 12:18:40 PM
As far as i can see, DL on controls the rider & bike as one object, while DL off controls the rider weight, which on it's turn controls the bike.
Man, I've explained this at least a fuckzillion times (on this forum and the previous one). No, what you said above is wrong.
The stick you assign to the lean controls the bike
target lean angle. The rider lean is handled either manually or automatically, but tat's a separate thing.
DL off means the signal that your stick generates at every instant (i.e. the stick position) goes into a complex filter (Piboso not wanting to reveal further details, understandable) at the exit of which you get the
target lean angle (of the bike): this target lean angle is used by the virtual rider to compute the necessary torque to be applied to the handlebar (and, if auto rider lean l/r, the rider lean).
DL on is exactly the same thing, except the filter is not there, no other difference: your stick position is the target lean angle. The fact DL off is faster and twitchier is due to the absence of the filter.
I'll make you a simpler example: imagine you have a line segment with one extremity fixed in the middle of the screen and the other moving left/right from vertical to mimic the position of your stick. When the stick is centered (neutral) the line is vertical. When you move the stick left, the line rotates left.
Now, with the equivalent of direct lean ON, the line position follows instantly, very precisely, the stick position, it's very fast.
With DL off, is slow, chewy: you move your stick very quickly to the right and the line slowly goes to the right. When it's fully right, you release your stick so that it goes quickly to neutral and the line goes slowly to neutral. So slowly that, if you want it to go to neutral faster, you must push your stick to the left and once the line is vertical (or slightly before) put back your stick to neutral.
Now, the example above is not 100% correct: even with DL on, the target lean angle is not reached as fast as you can move your stick, because that would not be poissible on a real bike (you can yank the stixk left/right much faster than you can flip a real bike). That's already some sort of "filtering" that is implemented explicitly by the virtual pilot (the rider has a max torque he can apply to the bars, plus other details) and by the physics model (you need large torques to flip a 160Kg bike very quickly).
But DL off introduces another level of filtering: a level that seems to have been added just to prevent people for crashing the bike when they move the stick too fast. It's some sort of steering help (as Piboso himself called it in a PM exchange with me).
From a control point of view, when you have to push the stick to the left (instead of simply to the middle) in order to have the bike go vertical, you're essentially "compensating" (or inverting) the filter. So what's the point of having the filter in in the first place ?
I have worked (I mean professionally) on this kind of problems for 7+ years and I've seen this happen a lot.
A typical example is room temperature control (I'll use some utterly wrong wording here, for the sake of simplicity): you say you want 21deg in the room, you set 21deg on the control system. But if the control system has some heavy filtering applied, the room temperature will rise too slowly. The people will try that: I want 21deg, but in order to get there quickly, I tell the system I want 25deg (so that it will move his ass faster) and once I'm at 21deg, Ill set it back to 21deg. All fine, except it was enough to reduce the filtering and set what you want, 21deg. Much easier.
Quote from: JamoZ on April 18, 2014, 06:37:57 PM
To be honest, i recall PiBoSo saying on the old forum that DL is only for wheel users, and should not be used with a gamepad...and i can totally understand why.
Not exactly his words: he said DL ON was meant for people with high precision input devices (I think he mentioned joysticks), and that he personally used a pad with DL off.
As far as I can see, not all the pads have precise joysticks (has a thrustmaster something at it was utter crap in terms of joysticks precision), but the xbox 360 pad (for example) is surely precise enough.
Again, I'm not trying to convince anybody that DL on is right, better or more realistic.
But if you are on DL off right now and want to try DL on you'll need to play with it at least 2 weeks (daily): it takes a lot of time to undo what months of practice have done to your brain.
It's the same as if you were trying to move your lean control from the left stick to the right one (or vice versa): it takes a lot, I know as I've done it.
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 19, 2014, 01:33:01 PM
Quote from: JamoZ on April 18, 2014, 12:18:40 PM
As far as i can see, DL on controls the rider & bike as one object, while DL off controls the rider weight, which on it's turn controls the bike.
Man, I've explained this at least a fuckzillion times (on this forum and the previous one). No, what you said above is wrong.
I might be wrong yes, thats why i said "as far as i can see". I did not read any of your previous fuckzillion posts about this subject, so i didn`t know , excuse me.
Quote from: JamoZ on April 19, 2014, 02:02:44 PM
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 19, 2014, 01:33:01 PM
Man, I've explained this at least a fuckzillion times (on this forum and the previous one). No, what you said above is wrong.
I might be wrong yes, thats why i said "as far as i can see". I did not read any of your previous fuckzillion posts about this subject, so i didn`t know , excuse me.
fuckzillion + 1 now :) No offence, of course.
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 19, 2014, 02:08:28 PM
Quote from: JamoZ on April 19, 2014, 02:02:44 PM
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 19, 2014, 01:33:01 PM
Man, I've explained this at least a fuckzillion times (on this forum and the previous one). No, what you said above is wrong.
I might be wrong yes, thats why i said "as far as i can see". I did not read any of your previous fuckzillion posts about this subject, so i didn`t know , excuse me.
fuckzillion + 1 now :) No offence, of course.
MaX.
Your posts are always interesting and helpful, but please try to be a bit less aggressive.
Also, gazillion already is a funny number, no need to be vulgar.
Will do (will try at lest), and will stick to damnzillion then (it better describe the intended meaning), but TBH I've seen Jamoz and others use adjectives between them with no problem, as it should be between grown ups. Sorry anyway.
MaX.
(http://fermentationwineblog.com/wp-content/uploads/KnowNothing.jpg)
Quote from: JamoZ on April 19, 2014, 04:16:57 PM
(http://fermentationwineblog.com/wp-content/uploads/KnowNothing.jpg)
That can be solved and, anyway, you ride damn fast !
P.S.
Fermentationwineblog.com ?! :o ;D
i don`t know man. Google images ftw 8)
Quote from: JamoZ on April 19, 2014, 10:55:06 PM
i don`t know man. Google images ftw 8)
I see a pattern there ... Jeagermeister and Corona skins ...
MaX.
Quote from: PiBoSo on April 19, 2014, 03:10:51 PM
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 19, 2014, 02:08:28 PM
Quote from: JamoZ on April 19, 2014, 02:02:44 PM
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 19, 2014, 01:33:01 PM
Man, I've explained this at least a fuckzillion times (on this forum and the previous one). No, what you said above is wrong.
I might be wrong yes, thats why i said "as far as i can see". I did not read any of your previous fuckzillion posts about this subject, so i didn`t know , excuse me.
fuckzillion + 1 now :) No offence, of course.
MaX.
Your posts are always interesting and helpful, but please try to be a bit less aggressive.
Also, gazillion already is a funny number, no need to be vulgar.
? ? ? :-X