My Adventures with Direct Steer w/ Torque

[passerBy]

With this out of the way, the road to virtual touring is free now

http://www.youtube.com/v/nLHk2egW7zE

Just to clarify the above. This damned hairpin was the stumbling block that was preventing me from truly considering the direct steering motorcycling experience in GP Bikes a complete one.

As it turns out, after more practice, getting through it at low speeds is more than doable. Even in the 2nd gear (in the vid I'm in the 1st, though).

[davidboda46]

With this out of the way, the road to virtual touring is free now

Just to clarify the above. This damned hairpin was the stumbling block that was preventing me from truly considering the direct steering motorcycling experience in GP Bikes a complete one.

As it turns out, after more practice, getting through it at low speeds is more than doable. Even in the 2nd gear (in the vid I'm in the 1st, though).

Which track is this?

Cheers,

/David "Gonzo" Boda #46

[loinen]

I won't quote everything but here is my answer for your posts..

"Even"?..

I tried but with degrees of rotation set to 180 default and ds setup on my G25 wheel. Default steering still seems more preferable and natural with proper FFB force. The main unrealistic thing of DS is that you must always resist bike tending to fall in a way which feels very unnatural. Frankly speaking I did not spent much time for training GPB with DS setups but this is simply because I spent a lot of time wanking out MX Simulator's system which is quite similar to DS when you try it with minimal dampers, leveling etc. And I know that in MX Sim with all its helpers set even to 50% so called pro riders cant be stable. This is not good at all. Also I think you give too much meaning to GPB's AI. I think it is not something that steals your right to be the rider of your virtual bike, you still control most of things, but AI controls a part which you should not control manually (except max lean angle which is not so critical imo), the lap times are yours, not of a robot. When you ride a bike IRL there are some forces and feelings helping you naturally control falling, in GPB and MXSim riding with no AI rider feels like YOU must become those forces and imagine all those feelings and everything is for struggling crashes, countersteering the way it feels with DS on pad/wheel is not about natural perception of the technique. Way too complicated comparing to reality. And I do not only care about lap times, I care about competitive online racing, physics and handling as much natural as possible. Ride 2 is an arcade game where anybody can ride fast since first start, it gets boring after 2-3 weeks, not my type of games. I can accept racing simulators in which learning curve is somewhere near reality - here i mean efforts/hours spent to reach real fast lap time with condition such as 1) you really do not push to fly from any corner 2) you must be able to be constant with a good lap time. And looking at my experience, skills/consistency, laptimes in MXB and GPB (plus some other sims before them as part of virtual riding experience), I can say that the time/efforts I spent to reach them is quite realistic.

[passerBy]

With this out of the way, the road to virtual touring is free now

Just to clarify the above. This damned hairpin was the stumbling block that was preventing me from truly considering the direct steering motorcycling experience in GP Bikes a complete one.

As it turns out, after more practice, getting through it at low speeds is more than doable. Even in the 2nd gear (in the vid I'm in the 1st, though).

Which track is this?

Cheers,

/David "Gonzo" Boda #46

It's the A-7000 (also known as "Montes de Malaga"). My favorite road for GPB by far

[passerBy]

I tried but with degrees of rotation set to 180 default and ds setup on my G25 wheel. Default steering still seems more preferable and natural with proper FFB force.

I assume you tried the directsteer=2 with that.

Well, 180 degrees is just too much. Imagine having installed an almost 4:1 reduction gearing between the bars and the fork. It would feel weird, right? That's basically what you did with the 180° setting. Most likely, that is also the mistake DD made when he was experimenting with his Logitech wheel too.

Please, do me a favor. Back up your controller and calibration files, make a separate Logitech profile for GP Bikes with Degrees of Rotation set to 50 (or temporarily set the global profile to that), and drop this DS configuration into your GP Bikes profile.ini:

Code Select Expand

[hardcore]
directsteer=2
directsteer_maxangle=25

In the options I would recommend assigning L/R rider lean to the wheel buttons, set view Tilt to as close to 100 as still comfortable enough, remove any headtracking/looking into turn or into lean (to make sure these things won't affect your lean perception while you are getting to grips with direct steering) and make sure that the Linearity slider for the Lean is in the middle at 100.

Now, take some "user friendly" enough bike (like the CBR600RR above) to a track you'll feel comfortable at while practicing ("trial" might be the best for that, or the already mentioned Grobnik, or Funring) and give it some riding time, let it sink into you.
One thing to consider here: because the Logitech's FFB is quite crappy, consider yourself being extremely strong (the smaller the FFB value, the stronger you are). So, just imagine you are riding a bike while being too strong for your own good. Try not to as much turn the bars (the wheel), as to push on them, feeling the resistance without actually turning the controller wheel itself much. Done right, I don't think it will turn more than 2° to 3° in either direction at speed like that. Also, I would suggest running the FFB at as close to 100 as possible in both the Logitech profiler and in GPB, but the shaking thing might get annoying too soon, depending on the track and the bike.

I will answer the rest of your post at a later time.
Edit:

Remember the other two FFB settings occupying the same block with the overall strength slider? Turns out at least the one controlling the dampening strength has finally proven its usefulness I would always set these two to 0 before, but in GPB dampening is right at home.

The main unrealistic thing of DS is that you must always resist bike tending to fall in a way which feels very unnatural.

Well, I'm not happy with that either. Probably some still remaining deficiencies of the physics engine (like the ones from the past making the tires not grip as they should, or the tendency to capsize while going up a slope).
The good thing is that cranking that "Damper Effect Strength" up to 100 really helps a lot in keeping the bike on its wheels through the tightest of the bends all the while hanging off the bike.

Frankly speaking I did not spent much time for training GPB with DS setups but this is simply because I spent a lot of time wanking out MX Simulator's system which is quite similar to DS when you try it with minimal dampers, leveling etc. And I know that in MX Sim with all its helpers set even to 50% so called pro riders cant be stable. This is not good at all.

I hear you, spent a lot of time myself in that thing with varying results. Ironically, it made me wish GPB had a similar way of controlling the bike too, and I pestered Piboso about it quite a lot at the time
Turned out it wasn't all to great on tarmac either... However, there was an alternative way of doing this. And I'm really happy he took his time to implement it as well.

Also I think you give too much meaning to GPB's AI. I think it is not something that steals your right to be the rider of your virtual bike, you still control most of things, but AI controls a part which you should not control manually (except max lean angle which is not so critical imo), the lap times are yours, not of a robot.

Believe it or not, I decided to try the default steering today the first time after these 4 years. I should have saved my attempts and uploaded them, because it looked hilarious I only managed to make myself go in a straight line after a dozen or so of attempts. It didn't feel just weird, it was outright bizarre. Would almost drop it to a side and the bike would go in very tight circles with no effort whatsoever. That's just simply wrong.

By the way, as I said, I tried DS1 after almost the same amount of time, and at first it was weird as well. Until I realized I needed to put negative values into the ini. After that, getting the bike to roll and to turn was much easier.

You might find it strange, to say the least, but it was way easier for me to pick up DS1 than the default steering. I ended up being able to make just a single turn in default steering after around twenty or so attempts. It felt this wrong.

When you ride a bike IRL there are some forces and feelings helping you naturally control falling

Yes, it's hard not having your vestibular system helping you. However, you can substitute it with your vision. Same thing with helicopter sims. Making a proper hover in them is almost as difficult (if not more), yet people learn to do that too (I, for one, can do a good enough hover to pick a crate with the DCS Huey). And I'd say I get more feedback in GPB than I do in DCS.

in GPB and MXSim riding with no AI rider feels like YOU must become those forces and imagine all those feelings and everything is for struggling crashes, countersteering the way it feels with DS on pad/wheel is not about natural perception of the technique. Way too complicated comparing to reality.

It's natural for a sim to be more complicated compared to reality. Exactly because you have much less feedback. On the plus side, a crash can't hurt you much in a sim. Though it probably can give a stroke with all the frustration...

And I do not only care about lap times, I care about competitive online racing

That's pretty much the same thing. I love bikes and helicopters (among other things). That's why I ride/fly them. Lap times and podiums are not about liking what's getting you there, they are more about liking yourself.

physics and handling as much natural as possible

Well, most likely the handling in GPB DS mode 2 can be brought very close to natural. It probably only depends on how much we are ready to spend on that much naturalness. A good direct drive wheel would probably be the best answer here. The problem is, I'm not yet ready to invest several thousands of dollars into this. So, I'm more or less content with what my G27 can provide me with.

Ride 2 is an arcade game where anybody can ride fast since first start, it gets boring after 2-3 weeks, not my type of games.

For me the default steering also got boring probably back when GPB was still an alpha. The difference is, I don't hunt for better lap times, nor do I race online, so there was little to keep me riding like this.
With the coming of direct steering, however, things changed significantly. And the coming of DS2 has finally made GPB the sim I want.
It's like cars (the G27 was initially meant for them). I switched to them at the time because I could actually drive them myself, I could feel the reaction of the steering and it wasn't as hard as trying to walk the tightrope while juggling the balls. And driving them myself was fun. Learning to drift was fun. Imagine I could only tell the AI where to go instead of handling the wheel by myself. That might work in racing, but all in all, it's a boring idea. Even if I could still operate the pedals and the shifter.

Then came the second mode in GPB: even more direct control, less hardcore. And then the sim started getting improved. And I started figuring out how to make the best out of this mode.

I can accept racing simulators in which learning curve is somewhere near reality - here i mean efforts/hours spent to reach real fast lap time with condition such as 1) you really do not push to fly from any corner 2) you must be able to be constant with a good lap time. And looking at my experience, skills/consistency, laptimes in MXB and GPB (plus some other sims before them as part of virtual riding experience), I can say that the time/efforts I spent to reach them is quite realistic.

That's another possibility. But I wouldn't strictly call something like that a sim (if that matters). A sim is an as close a mathematical model to reality as possible. Even if it's completely undrivable (like a proper bicycle simulator would be, for example).

A learning curve approximation is probably the best of both worlds, especially if it has a mathematically sound sim underneath. But it still needs to be not only about as hard (or easy) as RL, but also about as fun as RL, in my opinion.

[passerBy]

The stability given by the Damper Effect Strength speaks for itself.

http://www.youtube.com/v/LbfbwWGXqjQ

[HornetMaX]

The stability given by the Damper Effect Strength speaks for itself.

Explanation ?

[passerBy]

The stability given by the Damper Effect Strength speaks for itself.

Explanation ?

Well, you need to watch the previous videos to make the comparison. Ok, maybe it is obvious to me, since I also could see and feel it from the 1st person perspective, but it appeared to me pretty noticeable that while hanging off the bike at full and close to full lean now I can keep the bike much more stable than before I tried changing the FFB damper strength option. I never expected it to be that much of a help. Now if only I could try this on at least a belt-driven wheel... With that most likely even the FFB spikes will be less of a bother.

Piboso definitely needs to incorporate an FFB filter into the sim. The minimum force might be not as important, but when your wheel is trying to shake the table and itself apart most of the time, you naturally get worried. At the same time, you want an as strong the FFB as at all possible to properly utilize this direct steering mode. Oh, and besides, exactly because of this I would rather call this the "torque mode" and the first one the "angle mode". What the software deals with is only relevant to the said software. You, as the user, input an angle in the first mode (unless there's a controller you mentioned is in use) that will be subsequently converted into the torque fed to the algorithm. Just like with potentiometer-based pedals (instead of load-cell based), this just feels wrong. In the second mode, especially if the controller is strong enough, you input torque. Yes, you can input angle, but that will make you fall. You should adapt to listening to what the bars are doing and respond to that with torque of your own. That will improve your riding in the sim in that mode drastically.

[passerBy]

This can be surprisingly hard to achieve.

http://www.youtube.com/v/jRA29IQKq7M

Ever since I saw motogymkhana videos on YouTube, I was curious if it's possible to replicate in GP Bikes (using direct steering, of course). Didn't have much luck previously (apart from some accidental really sharp turns), but this time around I started getting closer to the desired result.

Ironically, still can hardly make a U-turn on a wide enough track.

Now imagine doing this in the default steering. I doubt it would make any sense at all...

[Hawk]

Well done mate.... That manoeuvre is very difficult using DST. Practice really does make perfect I see! Well done! 

Hawk.

[passerBy]

Well done mate.... That manoeuvre is very difficult using DST. Practice really does make perfect I see! Well done! 

Hawk.

Thank you, Hawk I think it would be much more difficult if I, indeed, used the first mode, though (DS1/DST). I use the second one (DS2/DSA). For me it feels much more natural than either the first mode, or the default steering mode. I doubt it makes much sense to use the DS1 on a force feedback wheel, and this kind of "stunt" almost requires you to have force feedback.
I really miss having proper controls, sadly, including the rear brake pedal.

I agree, practice makes perfect Not sure how much of it I'll have to go through until I can complete some basic gymkhana course. Not having any markings for the course doesn't help either I have a feeling, though, that when I have my headtracking/HT rider lean back, I'll show more progress

Thank you a lot once again, mate!

[HornetMaX]

Well, you need to watch the previous videos to make the comparison. Ok, maybe it is obvious to me, since I also could see and feel it from the 1st person perspective, but it appeared to me pretty noticeable that while hanging off the bike at full and close to full lean now I can keep the bike much more stable than before I tried changing the FFB damper strength option. I never expected it to be that much of a help. Now if only I could try this on at least a belt-driven wheel... With that most likely even the FFB spikes will be less of a bother.

Is GPB using programmable features (like Damper Effect Strength) ? I thought it wasn't. Worth to check with the boss ... because even in KRP forum, none of these effects seems to be used ...

Just to be sure, did you check the "Allow the game to adjust settings" thingy, right ?

Now imagine doing this in the default steering. I doubt it would make any sense at all...

http://www.youtube.com/v/SU28ccJWuiU
[normal steering, manual rider lean but no lean at all, direct steer lean 100%]

Granted, the current virtual rider has troubles at low speed but as we're dealing with GP bikes, that's not a huge deal in general.

Well done mate.... That manoeuvre is very difficult using DST. Practice really does make perfect I see! Well done! 

He used DSA (which is still hard, but not as impossible as DST).

[davidboda46]

With this out of the way, the road to virtual touring is free now

Just to clarify the above. This damned hairpin was the stumbling block that was preventing me from truly considering the direct steering motorcycling experience in GP Bikes a complete one.

As it turns out, after more practice, getting through it at low speeds is more than doable. Even in the 2nd gear (in the vid I'm in the 1st, though).

Which track is this?

Cheers,

/David "Gonzo" Boda #46

It's the A-7000 (also known as "Montes de Malaga"). My favorite road for GPB by far

Ok, thanks!

Cheers,

/David "Gonzo" Boda #46

[passerBy]

Is GPB using programmable features (like Damper Effect Strength) ? I thought it wasn't. Worth to check with the boss ... because even in KRP forum, none of these effects seems to be used ...

Checked more extensively once again, and now I'm not so sure whether it works or not. On the other hand, I'm burned out at the moment, so I can't really tell if I feel the difference. Still, the wheel appears to be more heavier than not with the dampening on.

Just to be sure, did you check the "Allow the game to adjust settings" thingy, right ?

It's already checked, I didn't have to do that.

Now imagine doing this in the default steering. I doubt it would make any sense at all...

http://www.youtube.com/v/SU28ccJWuiU
[normal steering, manual rider lean but no lean at all, direct steer 100%]

Granted, the current virtual rider has troubles at low speed but as we're dealing with GP bikes, that's not a huge deal in general.

(I assume you meant "direct lean 100%")
What I meant by not making any sense at all is that as I mentioned above, after switching to the default steering I was making my way out of the box, and trying to compensate what I felt through the FFB I dropped the wheel to a lock. The bike proceeded to make circles in the space between the boxes and the wall with no input from me whatsoever, because I was laughing looking at all this having left go of all the controls. I regret not saving the replay though. Thought it was something that the AI tends to do on itself. When I tried to replicate this today, I failed (probably because while trying to make it go in circles it ends up going straight for me).

Either way, doing gymkhana in the default steering doesn't make much sense because the AI will keep the bike from falling. You just deflect the controller to a side and that's it. Ok, maybe going fast through the course will be challenging, but only from the route planning point of view.
So, instead of concertating the controls you will simply point a spot to the AI, "make some circles round here" -- and it will proceed going in circles. Boring.

Well done mate.... That manoeuvre is very difficult using DST. Practice really does make perfect I see! Well done! 

He used DSA (which is still hard, but not as impossible as DST).

I already mentioned that And the first mode is not really "impossible", but is extremely hard to achieve any meaningful results with.

It's the A-7000 (also known as "Montes de Malaga"). My favorite road for GPB by far

Ok, thanks!

You are welcome

[HornetMaX]

(I assume you meant "direct lean 100%")

Yeah, sorry. Fixed.