If you have recorded today's motgp race (Brno, nice umbrella girls, by the way), 4 laps before the end you have 2nice replays (with high speed camera) with close-ups of the front wheel in the middle of a turn: you can clearly see that the front wheel is not "pointing" in the direction it is move towards, aka it is slipping laterally, (aka it has a sideslip angle, for the geeks).
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on August 17, 2014, 07:52:53 PM
If you have recorded today's motgp race (Brno, nice umbrella girls, by the way), 4 laps before the end you have 2nice replays (with high speed camera) with close-ups of the front wheel in the middle of a turn: you can clearly see that the front wheel is not "pointing" in the direction it is move towards, aka it is slipping laterally, (aka it has a sideslip angle, for the geeks).
If I recall correctly, the wheel was even pointing more towards the inside of the turn (with respect to the trajectory being followed by the wheel and the bike itself), which is a bit less usual of the other case (wheel pointing towards the exterior with respect to the trajectory).
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on August 17, 2014, 07:55:28 PM
Quote from: HornetMaX on August 17, 2014, 07:52:53 PM
If you have recorded today's motgp race (Brno, nice umbrella girls, by the way), 4 laps before the end you have 2nice replays (with high speed camera) with close-ups of the front wheel in the middle of a turn: you can clearly see that the front wheel is not "pointing" in the direction it is move towards, aka it is slipping laterally, (aka it has a sideslip angle, for the geeks).
If I recall correctly, the wheel was even pointing more towards the inside of the turn (with respect to the trajectory being followed by the wheel and the bike itself), which is a bit less usual of the other case (wheel pointing towards the exterior with respect to the trajectory).
You are right, saw it too, watched it again now that I saw your post. I found it to be more obvious in the replay of Dani Pedrosa with 7 laps remaining. There you could see more of the whole bike and therefore the overall trajectory. But as you said... very rare to see this. It looks like it is the uphill left-right combination - so front loaded heavily from braking and riding uphill. I would assume this is right on the edge - a bit more and they'd go down.
When I saw it I though about you Stout :)
I'm not sure the thing is "right on the edge", I actually think this kind of sliding happens more often than people thinks: I'm confident if the slow-mo was not such high quality (high frame rate camera), you'd miss it.
At the same time, I only watched it live (and I missed the one 7 laps from the end, likely due to wife/kids interrupt), so if you can upload it somewhere (has to be good quality though), I'd like to have a second look.
But it's just a curiosity for me, so don't waste more than 10min: if it's too complicate, drop it.
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on August 17, 2014, 09:29:55 PM
When I saw it I though about you Stout :)
Hehe yeah - thought the same ;D but it is a different story you know... these scenes happened on the brake and with heavy load on the front. The GPB thing I am still concerned about happens when accelerating hard, so...... you know. ;)
Quote from: HornetMaX on August 17, 2014, 09:29:55 PM
At the same time, I only watched it live (and I missed the one 7 laps from the end, likely due to wife/kids interrupt), so if you can upload it somewhere (has to be good quality though), I'd like to have a second look.
Well recording Dorna stuff and uploading it - my legal counselor says I'd better now ;) ;) I can only reommend MotoGP season pass... you can watch every race whenever you want - right back to 90's
Is this to do with the strange front end problems on gpbikes? It does it at laguna seca aswel.. Corkscrew. Going left into corkscrew is fine but as soon as you go right and down the bike is pointing forwards whilst turning right!
Happens on most tracks.. Its not realistic in any way shape or form lol
Quote from: HornetMaX on August 17, 2014, 09:29:55 PM
I'm not sure the thing is "right on the edge", I actually think this kind of sliding happens more often than people thinks: I'm confident if the slow-mo was not such high quality (high frame rate camera), you'd miss it.
You are probably right that it happens to a certain degree more often than noticed .... but that this certain situation is right on the edge shows for example the crash of Rossi from Saturday. AFAIK it is the exact same turn where the above mentioned highlights were shot at.
This is the video of Rossis crash https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2Tc6Pi-quM
sidenote: watch how Rossis bike flys over the fence and almost hits the VIP shuttle BMW :D I bet the swanky would-be V.I.P lady inside of that car was scared like sh...t :P
Quote from: Stout Johnson on August 17, 2014, 10:01:50 PM
Hehe yeah - thought the same ;D but it is a different story you know... these scenes happened on the brake and with heavy load on the front. The GPB thing I am still concerned about happens when accelerating hard, so...... you know. ;)
Hmm, I thought they were more or less mid/end of the turn and hence on the throttle ...
Also because if they were on the brakes and initiating the lean, the front wheel would be pointing towards the exterior ...
Hmm, now I really really want to watch it again ...
Quote from: Stout Johnson on August 17, 2014, 10:01:50 PM
Well recording Dorna stuff and uploading it - my legal counselor says I'd better now ;) ;)
If it's a 20sec replay, you won't be bothered.
Also, you may upload in a relatively private manner, but I digress :)
Quote from: Stout Johnson on August 17, 2014, 10:01:50 PM
I can only reommend MotoGP season pass... you can watch every race whenever you want - right back to 90's
I've heard it's good, but I'm less and less inclined to paying for this kind of stuff ... I mean, in the past they were supposed to have you paying to be at the track, while watching it on tv was supposed to be covered by the sponsors and advertisers. Now you borderline have to pay even to talk about the sport ... yesterday I've read about a Premier League representative saying they will hunt people filming goal at the stadium and publishing them in real time: he said they had to (quote) "protect their intellectual property" ... oh well ...
MaX.
there are some values that can be changed in the garage, that modify what you're saying
How about no more Brno? Ewwwwwwwwww, love Brno!
^ Troll alert!! Moderators!!!! Lol
Yeah brno is amazing..
;) I guess it made the 2015 season after all :P
Oh shit you mean they were gonna scrap brno?? :o
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on August 18, 2014, 04:02:26 AM
Oh shit you mean they were gonna scrap brno?? :o
yes, karel saved it
wow! that would suck.. well done abraham!! isnt brno one of the only original tracks from the beginning of motogp? or is that assen.. cant remember
Quote from: Alby46 on August 17, 2014, 10:48:10 PM
there are some values that can be changed in the garage, that modify what you're saying
Uh ? :o
Quote from: WALKEN on August 18, 2014, 01:56:30 AM
How about no more Brno? Ewwwwwwwwww, love Brno!
Quote from: Alby46 on August 18, 2014, 05:23:18 AM
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on August 18, 2014, 04:02:26 AM
Oh shit you mean they were gonna scrap brno?? :o
yes, karel saved it
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on August 18, 2014, 04:02:26 AM
Oh shit you mean they were gonna scrap brno?? :o
OK, I'm not really well placed to complain about people going off topic but ... anyway, according to objective criteria (like umbrella girl quality) I'd never scrap brno.
WTF, they race in a parking space in the middle of the desert and then plan to scrap brno ?
@Stout: feel free to stay on topic :)
MaX.
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on August 18, 2014, 05:43:43 AM
wow! that would suck.. well done abraham!! isnt brno one of the only original tracks from the beginning of motogp? or is that assen.. cant remember
assen, but since 2006 it's not the real assen
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on August 18, 2014, 05:43:43 AM
wow! that would suck.. well done abraham!! isnt brno one of the only original tracks from the beginning of motogp? or is that assen.. cant remember
True! Brno is a classic and it has a huge fan-base. It doesn't generate enough profit, so that puts it on the red-list already :/ More importantly, the track has such a nice layout and always makes for nice races (real life as well as GPB :P) - so it would be a real shame if cancelled.
Quote from: HornetMaX on August 18, 2014, 06:47:27 AM
@Stout: feel free to stay on topic :)
I will for sure :) Here we go:
Quote from: HornetMaX on August 17, 2014, 10:40:56 PM
Hmm, I thought they were more or less mid/end of the turn and hence on the throttle ...
Also because if they were on the brakes and initiating the lean, the front wheel would be pointing towards the exterior ...
No, I am pretty positive, it is on the brake... in the HD slo-mo you can actually see the tyre being almost flat because all the weight is on the front.
In the first Dani Pedrosa replay (with 7 laps left) you can clearly see Dani's right hand braking ;)
On a general note regarding this issue: in your first post you say:
Quote from: HornetMaX on August 17, 2014, 10:40:56 PMyou can clearly see that the front wheel is not "pointing" in the direction it is move towards, aka it is slipping laterally says
I do not feel that the direction of the
front wheel in relation to the movement vector of the bike is the problem (although the title here http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=410.0 says otherwise :D When I started the topic it was the way I described it - not in the best way I would say now ;)).
What bothers me with the cornering of GPB, happens only when accelerating (I have no issues with the braking physics in GPB anyhow; imo very realisitic). For a bike, when being turned, it should always only sideslip to the "outside". That means, a bike in a left turn should have a bike side-slip angle towards the right and vice versa.
I would like to concentrate on the bike's resultant side-slip. If we discuss each wheel seperately, the discussion will blow up, not leading anywhere as I now feel that there is sometimes something wrong with the overall bike's trajectory - not the front wheel problem as I initially stated in the thread I opened up. This is how bike's overall sideslip can look like. With...
green = bike's "heading" vector
blue = bike's movement vector
angle between the vectors is the sideslip angle (http://i.imgur.com/dmABNeh.png)
So again, the angle should open to the outside of the bike (to the right in left-hand corners, to the left in right-hand corners). In GPB however, in some instances it can be observed that the sideslip angle will open up to the wrong side, to the "inside" if you will... like imo, it can be seen here from 0:12 on.
http://https://www.dropbox.com/s/lsbqdxhq9imu78m/GPB%20-%20wheel%20alignment%20problem.mp4 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/lsbqdxhq9imu78m/GPB%20-%20wheel%20alignment%20problem.mp4)
Quote from: Stout Johnson on August 18, 2014, 09:33:46 AM
Quote from: HornetMaX on August 17, 2014, 10:40:56 PM
Hmm, I thought they were more or less mid/end of the turn and hence on the throttle ...
Also because if they were on the brakes and initiating the lean, the front wheel would be pointing towards the exterior ...
No, I am pretty positive, it is on the brake... in the HD slo-mo you can actually see the tyre being almost flat because all the weight is on the front.
In the first Dani Pedrosa replay (with 7 laps left) you can clearly see Dani's right hand braking ;)
Oh now I (maybe) recall that replay at 7 laps to go: was it the one where you clearly see the front tire being compressed (i.e. the carcass being pushed and pulled like a spring) ?
If yes, then sure, this one was clearly on the brakes. But I thought the two others (4 laps to go) were not on the same spot or at best much deeper in the corner and off the brakes (but I could be wrong).
Quote from: Stout Johnson on August 18, 2014, 09:33:46 AM
On a general note regarding this issue: in your first post you say: Quote from: HornetMaX on August 17, 2014, 10:40:56 PMyou can clearly see that the front wheel is not "pointing" in the direction it is move towards, aka it is slipping laterally says
I do not feel that the direction of the front wheel in relation to the movement vector of the bike is the problem (although the title here http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=410.0 says otherwise :D When I started the topic it was the way I described it - not in the best way I would say now ;)).
Agreed: in fact I said I didn't think these replays were really related to our previous discussion.
Quote from: Stout Johnson on August 18, 2014, 09:33:46 AM
What bothers me with the cornering of GPB, happens only when accelerating (I have no issues with the braking physics in GPB anyhow; imo very realisitic). For a bike, when being turned, it should always only sideslip to the "outside". That means, a bike in a left turn should have a bike side-slip angle towards the right and vice versa. I would like to concentrate on the bike's resultant side-slip. If we discuss each wheel seperately, the discussion will blow up, not leading anywhere as I now feel that there is sometimes something wrong with the overall bike's trajectory - not the front wheel problem as I initially stated in the thread I opened up.
This is how bike's overall sideslip can look like. With...
green = bike's "heading" vector
blue = bike's movement vector
angle between the vectors is the sideslip angle
(http://i.imgur.com/dmABNeh.png)
Hmm, the "bike's heading" is exactly the same as the "rear wheel heading", ignoring chassis and swing arm flexibility, which are irrelevant for the discussion.
Likely you should focus on what happens at the rear wheel, as the "bike movement vector" (guess you refer to something like the velocity vector of the CoG) bring in some additional tricks (e.g. bike yawing).
Quote from: Stout Johnson on August 18, 2014, 09:33:46 AM
So again, the angle should open to the outside of the bike (to the right in left-hand corners, to the left in right-hand corners). In GPB however, in some instances it can be observed that the sideslip angle will open up to the wrong side, to the "inside" if you will... like imo, it can be seen here from 0:12 on.
http://https://www.dropbox.com/s/lsbqdxhq9imu78m/GPB%20-%20wheel%20alignment%20problem.mp4 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/lsbqdxhq9imu78m/GPB%20-%20wheel%20alignment%20problem.mp4)
I'm under the impression that what you're saying is "a bike cannot slide inside the turn" (which I can understand), but I don't think that's happening in your video.
From 0:09 on, what I see is: the rider needs to pick up the bike, so he turns the handlebars towards the interior of the turn (i.e. to the rider's right).
Because of that, the bike's heading progressively points more towards the interior of the turn (before doing the opposite once the bike is almost vertical).
Watching the screen, the fact the bike globally moves to the left of the screen at turn's end is not surprising to me (just the rider having overdone the turn a bit, the bike having been kept a tad too much on the angle, picking it up a bit too late).
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on August 18, 2014, 10:24:15 AM
Hmm, the "bike's heading" is exactly the same as the "rear wheel heading", ignoring chassis and swing arm flexibility, which are irrelevant for the discussion.
Likely you should focus on what happens at the rear wheel, as the "bike movement vector" (guess you refer to something like the velocity vector of the CoG) bring in some additional tricks (e.g. bike yawing).
Yeah I know... But I try to make this discussion as understandable as possible, so everybody here hopefully feels free to contribute. It is becoming a discussion between the two of us again ;) I just felt that if I just refered to rear wheel, some might not get what I mean. The direction of the whole bike is easier to grasp I think, but dunno.
maybe this illustrates it better (excuse the lame editing :P):this is how it is:
Situation 1:(http://i.imgur.com/zGCJgkV.png)
this is how it should be imo:
(http://i.imgur.com/9Qj4BFw.png)
Situation 2:(http://i.imgur.com/vBx3Plc.png)
this is how it should be imo:
(http://i.imgur.com/swNlCF8.png)
hope this makes it more clear....
PS: ignore the front wheel in my edited pictures... I didnt have much time.
First picture describes everything iv been disliking in gpbikes since day 1. Happens everywhere! Even at low speed.. Which is probably the answer to why its so unstable on hairpins etc
I don't know in other cases, but in the video above I'm starting to think you're being confused by the camera perspective.
I try ultra hard to find something wrong in the above video but I really don't see it (at least in the video above and in the other one Stout showed me a long ago). Again, maybe I'm just blind but ...
@BOBR6: low speed instability in hairpins comes from something else, namely that a 2 wheel bike at low speed is ... well, unstable :)
(so the virtual rider has more difficulties in doing what we'd like him to do).
MaX.
I totally agree with Stout and Bob. You can see it more in 3rd person view while turning it's like the bike goes slightly the opposite way so you can see more of the side of the bike than you should. Almost like its 'crabbing' like the rear spindle is out of line causing it to not follow the front.
My theory is.. (lol)
Because the bike goes through, around some corners at an angle (front wheel not tracking properly) on the corner exit the front end is dragging itself across the track surface to get back into line with the direction you are going! As the tyre drags across the track surface it causes the bars to shake which sometimes leads to a crash.. Sometimes it comes back into line and away you go! Almost like the virtual rider hasnt got a clue what to do other than hold on lol
On some tracks its so flippin obvious that something isnt right.. Brands hatch NC is the extreme example but it happens everywhere..
Quote from: HornetMaX on August 18, 2014, 08:26:56 PM
I don't know in other cases, but in the video above I'm starting to think you're being confused by the camera perspective.
I try ultra hard to find something wrong in the above video but I really don't see it (at least in the video above and in the other one Stout showed me a long ago). Again, maybe I'm just blind but ...
Well, I try ultra-hard to explain it the best way I can. Not sure what else I can do.
Quote from: Forty6 on August 18, 2014, 08:55:18 PM
I totally agree with Stout and Bob. You can see it more in 3rd person view while turning it's like the bike goes slightly the opposite way so you can see more of the side of the bike than you should. Almost like its 'crabbing' like the rear spindle is out of line causing it to not follow the front.
Agreed Forty6. I never ride in 3rd person anymore, but I just did and it was really obvious. I did some laps on Victoria and for me it was particularly noticeable in Lucky Heights.
Thank you forty6 and Bob for joining the discussion! I have been fighting a pretty lonely fight here :D
OK then, make one or two videos of extreme cases.
Or, even better, make the videos and save the replay.
Or, even better than better, make the video, save the replay and also save the telemetry with the telemetry plugin/app (I should be able to take a look at that in 3 weeks though).
It would even be good if any of you (Stout, BOBR6 and forty6) made his own videos/replays/telemetry, as I'm not even sure you're all talking about the same thing.
Stout knows that, for the others: I've shown the videos (the above one and another one Stout made) to a fairly competent friend who has shown it to a very qualified rider (WSBK level) and they found nothing strange (the pro rider even explained some surprising behavior that can happen on fast corner exits on the throttle).
I guess that if we all want to make this clear, you'll have to document it and open a topic in the hope Piboso himself has a look.
MaX.
its not an extreme case by any means but its there... brands hatch NC is where you will find an extreme case..
https://www.youtube.com/v/ZzHRT4I9wh8
Hmm, these are banked corners ...
Just to be sure, where do you see the issue ? In which od the 3 turns (1st left, right, 2nd left) ?
MaX.
Hi max, for me Stout has done a great job of doing that already mate. In the video and the stills it shows the nose of the bike pointing to the outside of the track but it's coming towards you. And your right about Lukey Heights at Victoria Stout. As you come over the crest of the left and into the tight right hand hairpin it's all over the place.
Quote from: Forty6 on August 19, 2014, 11:23:26 AM
Hi max, for me Stout has done a great job of doing that already mate. In the video and the stills it shows the nose of the bike pointing to the outside of the track but it's coming towards you.
I guess you refer to the image under "Situation 1" (of the 4 Stout has posted above).
What I see there is totally possible. The bike is leaning: this means than on top of the thrust (that is in the "bike's" direction) you also have a lateral force on the rear tire (even if the rear tire is not sliding at all): it's the Camber thrust (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camber_thrust). It pushes the rear wheel (and hence the bike) towards the interior of the turn. Because of that, the bike may not go towards the direction it is pointing to (most likely, thanks also to the light front).
Quote from: Forty6 on August 19, 2014, 11:23:26 AM
And your right about Lukey Heights at Victoria Stout. As you come over the crest of the left and into the tight right hand hairpin it's all over the place.
Lukey heights is on a slope (and a little banked too IIRC), we already know there are issues with this kind of corners.
MaX.
It's probably more the 1st image of situation 2. The bike has completed the turn and is now starting to straighten up. But the nose is still looking as though it's heading off track and the bike is coming towards you. I get what your saying regarding a lightening front end under power but the nose/front should now be going in the direction of the rear tyre. And if it was down to the rear sliding then the nose would be pointing to the inside of the turn as shown in the second image of situation 2. It's like, I get what Stout is saying and totally agree. But explaining it is a totally different matter. I suppose if you don't see it, then you don't see it. :)
Quote from: Forty6 on August 19, 2014, 12:14:21 PM
It's probably more the 1st image of situation 2. The bike has completed the turn and is now starting to straighten up. But the nose is still looking as though it's heading off track and the bike is coming towards you. I get what your saying regarding a lightening front end under power but the nose/front should now be going in the direction of the rear tyre. And if it was down to the rear sliding then the nose would be pointing to the inside of the turn as shown in the second image of situation 2. It's like, I get what Stout is saying and totally agree. But explaining it is a totally different matter.
I think we're pretty clear (now) on what's bothering. Roughly speaking, at turn's end (e.g. from 0:12s) the bike is pointing at me (or slightly to the right of the screen) while it is globally moving left. To me it's not an issue and I also think the specific perspective is playing a role here: the fov and the fact the camera is straight in front makes you notice more any side movement than any forward movement, giving the impression the bike is "floating to the left of the screen".
That's why having the replay is good in such cases, you can have a look from different angles.
Quote from: Forty6 on August 19, 2014, 12:14:21 PM
I suppose if you don't see it, then you don't see it. :)
I do see it, I just think it's not an issue. Not the same thing :)
MaX.
Glad you see it ;) but I don't necessarily feel it's the camera angle on the replay that exaggerates the movement as it's really clear from 3rd person camera which isn't static but it's following the bike/rider. It for me also happens mid corner or on corner entry. It looks like your loosing the front but your not. Where's Stout when you need him? He's much better at explaining :)
Quote from: Forty6 on August 19, 2014, 01:21:50 PM
Glad you see it ;) but I don't necessarily feel it's the camera angle on the replay that exaggerates the movement as it's really clear from 3rd person camera which isn't static but it's following the bike/rider. It for me also happens mid corner or on corner entry. It looks like your loosing the front but your not.
I'd think something like a helicopter view (fixed camera even, if possible in terms of zoom) should be the best to detect this kind of trajectory-related issues.
Quote from: Forty6 on August 19, 2014, 01:21:50 PM
Where's Stout when you need him? He's much better at explaining :)
He's probably "supervising his french maid" :P
MaX.
Thanks to BOBR6 84.
From weeks i search to reproduce what you posted.
I think it's a strange things, the rear wheel really doesn't follow the front wheel. I'm ok it happens in real, but i think it looks to much strange in gpbikes, like the effect is to big than in reality.
Right! ;)
Im not trying to nitpick at gpbikes its just it doesnt look right at all to me.. As we all know its more noticable on up/downhill turns but its always there.. Almost like the front tyre isnt connected to the track?
I fully accept what maX is saying but like janau said its seems a bit over the top compared to reality.
So track surface problem?
Tyre slip problem?
Or other?
Thats all beyond me.. All I can do is point out what I see..
Quote from: HornetMaX on August 19, 2014, 01:26:54 PM
Quote from: Forty6 on August 19, 2014, 01:21:50 PM
Where's Stout when you need him? He's much better at explaining :)
He's probably "supervising his french maid" :P
MaX.
LOL! I am very busy, because had to do all the stuff a housemaid is supposed to be doing... She is not good at that, but she is VERY good at the stuff a wife is supposed to be doing :P
Quote from: HornetMaX on August 19, 2014, 11:57:08 AM
I guess you refer to the image under "Situation 1" (of the 4 Stout has posted above).
What I see there is totally possible. The bike is leaning: this means than on top of the thrust (that is in the "bike's" direction) you also have a lateral force on the rear tire (even if the rear tire is not sliding at all): it's the Camber thrust (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camber_thrust). It pushes the rear wheel (and hence the bike) towards the interior of the turn. Because of that, the bike may not go towards the direction it is pointing to (most likely, thanks also to the light front).
Well that's a good point. But camber thrust does only account for the wheels running towards the interior of the turn, it does not account for the bike pointing towards the outside while running towards the inside. Also, the camber thrust is getting less and less towards the end of the video (as the lean angle is getting less), but the wrong direction issues is more and more obvious...
Quote from: HornetMaX on August 19, 2014, 01:03:03 PM
To me it's not an issue and I also think the specific perspective is playing a role here: the fov and the fact the camera is straight in front makes you notice more any side movement than any forward movement, giving the impression the bike is "floating to the left of the screen".
That's why having the replay is good in such cases, you can have a look from different angles.
Well, the angle you look at it, does play a big role ofc. If it was so obvious that it didn't, I assume we would not have this discussion here as it was clear to all that there was a problem (if there is any). It is natural that I tried to use an angle that made it as obvious as possible in order to show it clearly. But I can assure you that it can be observed from many angles, I did not arrange a rare optical illusion. For me (and luckily others too) it is even noticeably in standard cameras, on certain tracks and certain turns (e.g. Lucky Heights). I do have some replays saved, but I doubt that you will come waving at me that you now all of a suddon see the problem, when you do not see it with me trying to make it as obvious as possible.
It is like forty6 said:
Quote from: Forty6 on August 19, 2014, 01:21:50 PM
Glad you see it ;) but I don't necessarily feel it's the camera angle on the replay that exaggerates the movement as it's really clear from 3rd person camera which isn't static but it's following the bike/rider. It for me also happens mid corner or on corner entry. It looks like your loosing the front but your not.
It really does look like your loosing the front, like when braking too hard into a turn and you lose the front. But this issue we try to report here in GPB happens while accelerating mid-turn, more noticeable with more lean angle.
Quote from: HornetMaX on August 19, 2014, 01:03:03 PM
I'd think something like a helicopter view (fixed camera even, if possible in terms of zoom) should be the best to detect this kind of trajectory-related issues.
I tried that today... BUT with not really satisfactory result. When using non-static camera, you just do not see any issue at all. When using static camera, you have to zoom out very far. Good thing is you can see the trajectory of the bike. Bad thing is, you can hardly differentiate between front and rear wheel trajectory. So, I might have seen a clue of the problem, but is much much more noticeable in the video I posted ealier. If you dont see it there, you will not see it from bird view. My conclusion is, that the overall trajectory of the bike seems fine (as far as I could say from zoomed out view). So I think it is really only an issue of the orientation of the bike (bike pointing to the outside while running towards the inside of the turn) which is less noticeable from zoomed out bird view.
Well, I still have sth. in mind - I will get back to this topic asap. Will be busy next couple of days, but when I find time I will post my thoughts...
Quote from: Stout Johnson on August 19, 2014, 11:57:15 PM
Well that's a good point. But camber thrust does only account for the wheels running towards the interior of the turn, it does not account for the bike pointing towards the outside while running towards the inside.
Theoretically yes, it could: if the front is light, the force on the rear wheel contact patch pushing towards the interior will make the bike "pivot" and point towards the exterior.
Quote from: Stout Johnson on August 19, 2014, 11:57:15 PM
For me (and luckily others too) it is even noticeably in standard cameras, on certain tracks and certain turns (e.g. Lucky Heights).
Lucky heights is on a slope (like BOBR6's examples on brands hatch): we already know there's a problem in this kind of turns, this has been agreed a long ago by Piboso (not sure where we stand with respect to that, thought it was a bit better with beta5).
MaX.
look on klax's latest video... DST practice on laguna in his thread DST adventures.. from about 17 sec into the vid..
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on August 20, 2014, 08:36:01 AM
look on klax's latest video... DST practice on laguna in his thread DST adventures.. from about 17 sec into the vid..
Turns on a slope (or banked) ==> known problem
MaX.
lol :) so this whole topic.... ???
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on August 20, 2014, 09:29:49 AM
lol :) so this whole topic.... ???
The (original) topic was unrelated to what you/Stout and others have reported.
Then the discussion drifted: Stout's video is on a flat turn, so it's interesting. Banked/sloped turns do have an issue, that's clear.
MaX.
ok :-X
Quote from: HornetMaX on August 20, 2014, 09:37:52 AM
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on August 20, 2014, 09:29:49 AM
lol :) so this whole topic.... ???
The (original) topic was unrelated to what you/Stout and others have reported.
Then the discussion drifted: Stout's video is on a flat turn, so it's interesting. Banked/sloped turns do have an issue, that's clear.
MaX.
Would you like the thread removed Hornet?
Quote from: WALKEN on August 20, 2014, 04:37:41 PM
Quote from: HornetMaX on August 20, 2014, 09:37:52 AM
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on August 20, 2014, 09:29:49 AM
lol :) so this whole topic.... ???
The (original) topic was unrelated to what you/Stout and others have reported.
Then the discussion drifted: Stout's video is on a flat turn, so it's interesting. Banked/sloped turns do have an issue, that's clear.
MaX.
Would you like the thread removed Hornet?
Do you mean removed or moved? Because I do not see why this thread should be removed? It is a good discussion - it drifted from a rl MotoGP video concerning front wheel sideslip to some GPB related stuff - but that is not a big issue... If you meant to ask whether the topic should be
moved then imo yes.
OK Stout,
I can move it to GPBikes general discussion if everyone agrees?
Quote from: WALKEN on August 20, 2014, 07:53:29 PM
OK Stout,
I can move it to GPBikes general discussion if everyone agrees?
Hmm it's already in GPBikes general discussion, no ? I'd leave it here or, maybe, move it to the physics section.
And, of course, as said by Stout, absolutely no need to remove it: the discussion has drifted but it's really not an issue for me (I wasn't ranting about it at all).
MaX.
Its a good discussion! I just missunderstood.. My bad ;)
No issue at all BOBR6, really !
I'm actually glad somebody else joined the discussion, discussing at lengths with Stout only was starting to became more than suspect ;D
MaX.
Thats cool I was just pointing that out for anybody who might think otherwise.. Interesting topic I like it! I understand now what the topic is about! ;)
And all this appologising and explaining ourselves in a nice manner is making me cringe lol!!! Lets just keep the ball and banter going..
Quote from: HornetMaX on August 20, 2014, 08:26:31 PM
Quote from: WALKEN on August 20, 2014, 07:53:29 PM
OK Stout,
I can move it to GPBikes general discussion if everyone agrees?
Hmm it's already in GPBikes general discussion, no ? I'd leave it here or, maybe, move it to the physics section.
And, of course, as said by Stout, absolutely no need to remove it: the discussion has drifted but it's really not an issue for me (I wasn't ranting about it at all).
MaX.
I guess it went over your head then, lol ;)