Direct lean setting and bike physics... Help

[h106frp]

Had some discussion with DD and i am very confused.

As i understood it direct lean OFF places the virtual rider in control of the bike and he rides the bike for you based on the limits of the physics model and your steer vector request.

Direct lean 100% overrides the virtual rider steer input and allows you to input whatever you like directly as a steer vector, the physics responding to this possibly exaggerated input.

The bike handling/physics response is very different between these 2 extremes.

I do not want to discuss the merits of each, but what is the 'correct' model for the bike control? I seem to remember from the very early alpha(1?) that direct lean was not an option so i assumed 0% direct lean with full virtual rider control is the full simulation mode. DD assures me that 100% direct lean is the full simulation mode.

Very, very confused as i can only ever see the physics bikes dynamic response being a compromise to satisfy the controller mode at the moment.

Help.....
h106frp

[BOBR6 84]

Direct steer with torque (DST) is the full simulation mode.. my 2 cent's..

[h106frp]

Agree   

But for controller mortals the original question stands

[doubledragoncc]

I meant outside of DST BOB.

When I first started using GPB with Alpha7 Pib told me to turn on(in the ini back then) DL(100%) in order to have direct control over the steering as I had a great big dead spot in the center of steering as I dont use a gamepad. Back then it meant that I had only a small amout of control over the bike and the lil guy was doing the rest.

In all the beta's where he made it that you could adjust it in the menu it is the same way round. At 100% I have total control over the movement where as at 0% it is very little.

I did not mean it was more realistic than DST and to be honest, using a gamepad has no way of being anywhere near realistic and how would you know unless you have ridden a real bike using a gamepad.

DD

[Vini]

i think there's some confusion going on between direct-lean and direct-steer.
as long as you don't use direct-steer, the virtual rider will always do the steering for you (you 'only' input relative target lean angles) while the direct-lean setting only controls how quickly/directly the virtual rider reacts to those inputs.
as bob said, direct-steer is the only way to use GPB to it's full potential because then the virtual rider is completely out of the equation and you are in charge of finding the lean angle limit.

the reason why DD has to use 100% direct-lean is that it's the only way the input values will have a fixed, direct relationship to the target lean angle.
if you use lower values for direct-lean, it will basically only control how fast the virtual rider changes the lean angle (and of course in which direction), meaning that when flicking the bike from side to side quickly, your handlebar or gamepad stick might point in the opposite direction of where the bike is currently going/leaning (for a short period of time) and you will have "deadspots" where nothing much is happening.
because of this unchanging, direct relationship between lean angle and "steering" input when using direct-lean 100%, you have to be careful when changing direction because it's impossible for the bike to do it instantly without losing traction (so be smooth when needed).

[PiBoSo]

Had some discussion with DD and i am very confused.

As i understood it direct lean OFF places the virtual rider in control of the bike and he rides the bike for you based on the limits of the physics model and your steer vector request.

Direct lean 100% overrides the virtual rider steer input and allows you to input whatever you like directly as a steer vector, the physics responding to this possibly exaggerated input.

The bike handling/physics response is very different between these 2 extremes.

I do not want to discuss the merits of each, but what is the 'correct' model for the bike control? I seem to remember from the very early alpha(1?) that direct lean was not an option so i assumed 0% direct lean with full virtual rider control is the full simulation mode. DD assures me that 100% direct lean is the full simulation mode.

Very, very confused as i can only ever see the physics being a compromise to satisfy the controller mode at the moment.

Help.....
h106frp

The direct lean slider only adds an input filter, even at 100%. The physics is exactly the same.

[doubledragoncc]

The best way maybe to understand how it acts is that with it at 100% I have no dead zone if I waggle my bars, but if I put it to 0% it is as if I just had a 75% deadzone in the center. You cant really feel it on a gamepad as there is so little amount of movement but with mine it is massive.

So basically, it is like as Pib says a filter of the input, almost like linearity I suppose. So if you have it at 100% the input is more sensitive and at 0% your movement is delayed, A LOT lol.

Best way I can describe its physical effects for input.

DD

[h106frp]

An input filter to which parameter?

I agree the physics are constant and that seems to be the problem. A bike with high direct lean can be very unstable particularly when lifting the bike vertical, with a modest direct lean the same model is very stable.

Is the filter just damping the rate of change of the controller input? If so it also appears to prevent overshoot in the steer vector calculation.

@DD I would not expect it work that way as it would not make much sense. I would perhaps expect some sort of integration process on the controller position to control the velocity rather than the absolute dispalcement.

[doubledragoncc]

Well I can only say what it actually feels like but I am shit at putting it in words so I am using examples not a definitive explanation of what it is.

To me it is like a big dead spot at 0% in simple terms.

Dont forget it is totally different for gamepad users so my explanation is to try and explain how it would feel to you if your gamepad had a larger movement range.

DD

[Vini]

Wouldn't say it's different for gamepad users, you just don't notice it that much because the movements are much smaller.
But if you carefully compare your gamepad stick input to the bike lean angle (with direct-lean at 0% so that it's obvious) you will see the same behaviour.

A bike with high direct lean can be very unstable particularly when lifting the bike vertical, with a modest direct lean the same model is very stable.

The throttle is your friend here. You have to make the front light and steer the bike on/with the rear tyre.
You basically wait for the rear suspension to compress and push the rear slightly wide, then you start quickly picking the bike up with the front wheel barely touching the ground.
Or better said, the aim is to perfectly time the rear suspension compressing (from the engine power) with standing the bike up. If you pick the bike up a bit too late, you'll get a powerslide (which is sometimes useful for tightening your exit line), if you do it too early, you waste time and/or get wheelies (or in extreme cases: lowsides).
Here is a short lowspeed example at the Suzuka hairpin (notice how I can pick up the bike very quickly without inducing wobbles):
https://www.youtube.com/v/a3UoZB7Ua5U
...could've picked the bike up a bit later.

Edit: Oh and be careful, sometimes the quick steering can make you lowside out of corners like it almost happened to me in this video for example (at 13:40):
https://www.youtube.com/v/mlQdWyLpaZM
...throttle/power saved my ass

I should add that all of this works best when you are not using riding-aids (AW/TC) because they will not always allow you to make/keep the front wheel as light as it needs to be.
If I had used AW in the video above, the AW would have cut the engine, making the misaligned frontwheel fall down, which would have made me crash (or at least resulted in a massive tankslapper).
In less extreme cases, TC/AW will create wobbles, so before blaming direct-lean, make sure all riding-aids are at 0.

Here is an old example of TC (set to minimum value, AW was actually off) creating these kinds of problems:
https://www.youtube.com/v/az7S84k5zgE

Edit2: Direct control over the lean angle is not only helpful for accelerating faster (or at least in a more controlled fashion) but also for heavy braking, especially when you like to slide the rear.
It's very difficult to hit the apex when the bike is sliding all over the place because tiny and very quick corrections are necessary to get the bike to go where you want it to.
The delay created by lower Direct-Lean values make this even more difficult to do.
Also, when you are pushing it a bit too far and the rear decides to snap back (either because you hit full steering lock, because you are in a gear that's too tall or because you didn't allow it to start sliding before turning into the corner, as happened twice in this case) you can save it relatively reliably after some practice:
https://www.youtube.com/v/rX9B5nUlR8c
..ignore the music

[BOBR6 84]

I agree the physics are constant and that seems to be the problem. A bike with high direct lean can be very unstable particularly when lifting the bike vertical, with a modest direct lean the same model is very stable.

unless you have a very steady thumb  with modest direct lean i can make lots of fast corrections with the thumb stick without upsetting the bike too much.. with high DL handling stays the same but the bike follows your thumb precisely.  just a good tool for different style of control? my technical explanation 

[Hawk]

The big mistake is when you get people thinking that 100% direct lean is a total no go area for anyone because it makes the bike unstable because your stick inputs react too quick.........

What level you have direct lean on depends greatly on what controller your using. For me if I'm using a gamepad stick 100% direct lean is very tricky because of the small length of the stick which gives you a super quick response to any movements(probably too quick for the VR to respond properly right now?).
However if your using a controller which has a much longer input arm(like DD at the extreme or joystick users) then you need up to 100% to get the same response that a normal gamepad user would get at probably 50% or less direct lean setting. To me it's as simple as that. 

Hawk.

[doubledragoncc]

+1000 Hawky

Best explanation. Milestone need this big time.

DD

[Vini]

However if your using a controller which has a much longer input arm(like DD at the extreme or joystick users) then you need up to 100% to get the same response that a normal gamepad user would get at probably 50% or less direct lean setting. To me it's as simple as that. 

It's not quite as simple as adjusting the direct-lean value proportionally to the movement range of the controller.
If this was true, DD would have to increase it to more than 100% if he decided to make his controller bigger.
The reason, as explained above, is that the lean angle of the handlebar controller always has to be exactly the same as the bike lean angle in-game (otherwise it will feel very weird) and you only get this fixed/constant relationship with DL 100%. Otherwise you are not giving the virtual rider a target lean angle but rather a direction and a "lean angle change rate/speed" to work with (or something along those lines ).

[doubledragoncc]

I wish it was able to go to 150% then I would be really happy.

@Piboso, is it possible to increase Direct Lean over the 100% or rather increase the range?
This would be really brilliant.

DD