Hi,
It seems that you guys are interested in motorbike controller and/or motion simulator for GPB (more than I expected :D )
My project was to make a full motion simulator (for myself at first and maybe for professional use if it works well) but I will also do a "desk" version.
Before doing the hardware part, It's better for me to know what you would like to have in an "desk" version and for what price range.
I'm making a list with what I see and I'll update it with what you would see or what you want:
- 2DOF handlebar (1DOF as a real motorbike (counter steering) and one for motorbike roll angle)
- ForceFeedBack (for counter steering and/or motorbike roll. Using servomotor)
- Throttle
- Front brake (using spring)
- Clutch
- Buttons (Reset/ECU Mode/Pit Limiter)
- Dashboard ? (RPM leds, LCD screen)
- Rearsets (gear shift lever, rear brake)
All suggestions are welcome! ;)
Wishlist for a desk controller that I can buy and use :)
1. Simple and existing (rather than freaking awesome on paper but never getting built)
2. Intuitive and natural-feeling controls for a bike
3. Not too expensive
In more detail:
- 2DOF handlebar (1DOF as a real motorbike (counter steering) and one for motorbike roll angle)
- ForceFeedBack (for counter steering and/or motorbike roll. Using servomotor)
- Throttle
- Front brake (using spring)
- Clutch
- Buttons (Reset/ECU Mode/Pit Limiter)
- Dashboard ? (RPM leds, LCD screen)
- Rearsets (gear shift lever, rear brake)
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have force feedback on a desk controller and dashboard and rearsets also sound nice. But they complicate things and make the controller way more expensive. Actually, the dashboard would be completely useless for anyone who uses Rift once it's out, which I imagine would be nearly all sim fans. If it exists it should definitely be only an option.
As for rearsets, I used to think they are an integral part of a controller but to use even semi-realistic ones you'll need a special chair. More setup, more costs, more space. Again, only as an option.
So, pertty much what doubledragoncc has posted elsewhere on the forum, the thing just needs to be built and sold.
Of course, if you find a way to include everything and price it very cheap that would be perfect. But I have the feeling that losing lots of money on every sale is not what you're after :)
I would like bars on the desk that tilt left and right as well as turn (steer) l/r for counter steering.
So basicly I put pressure on the right handlbar slightly pushing forward, then the bars tilt to the right to represent the lean angle.
All the main controls on the bars, just a simple gear shifter on the floor, no need for rear brake for me.. Maybe a button somewhere to tap now and again.
I would buy that.
I have to say, although I admire and respect all the different inventions.. Im perfectly happy with a control pad!
Id like to see a simple gamepad adapted for bike games/sims especially.
All about the feel/stiffness/precission/feedback from the triggers and sticks etc..
i think the pads would be improved by making the direction stick longer for left/right but setting it deeper into the pad, this would give the feel of a short stick height above the pad body with longer travel so a bit more precise for driving type games.
Heres the base for my clamp-on system but no plans for FFB yet as I have not done much with it and will wait until I have tested more.
(http://iasystems.tk/pics/DSC00088.JPG)
And you could add foot controls later. (These are a very old model)
(http://iasystems.tk/pics/MK1shift%20and%20rear%20brake.jpg)
That keeps the cost down a bit.
Keep it sunny side up
DD
Quote from: cdx on December 01, 2014, 09:01:23 PM
2. Intuitive and natural-feeling controls for a bike
...
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have force feedback on a desk controller and dashboard and rearsets also sound nice. But they complicate things and make the controller way more expensive.
I think if you want natural-feeling then you will need good ForceFeedBack and yes, it will for sure sure increase the price of the thing. Using springs for example will cost less (almost nothing) but the feeling you will get will be more "arcade" than "simulation". :-\
Quote from: cdx on December 01, 2014, 09:01:23 PM
Actually, the dashboard would be completely useless for anyone who uses Rift once it's out, which I imagine would be nearly all sim fans. If it exists it should definitely be only an option.
I do agree, dashboard is a fancy thing, that's why I write it down in orange...I also see it more like an option.
thumb brake on the bars for the rear ;)
Thumb brake for rear.............That is a simple but ferkin great idea, I kicked myself as soon as I read it. Thankyou BOB, I am going to start designing that into the left clutch perch, but it was where I had a button cluster so will play about with best position for it. If I use it I will credit it to you though, give it a name like the "BOBR Brake".
See 2 heads are better than 1 but a 100 makes it even better lol
I think a dash would be great and on my system it would cover the steering plate. I thought about it in 2012 but not done anything yet. I would like to 3D print one from a Gixxer or CBR. You can see below and that I do have thumbsticks left and right on the bars if needed. The one on the throttle side is hard to use with front brake and throttle already needing your hand.
(http://iasystems.tk/pics/Bars%20with%20clocks2.jpg)
DD
Rear brake thumb-lever is already used by some riders (Canepa, Xaus for example)
I remember Canepa having this system cause he was a bit tall and his feet was too large to use the foot rear brake in corner... :D
Here is a picture of how it's set on SBK BMW:
(http://www.cycleworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/12723780452009w45110220091307216839.jpg)
TY wkp.
I can add this kind of control to my system using one of my MTE boxes so is fairly simple, today is a good day for ideas loving it
DD
Interesting link (.pdf) for a bike simulator and estimation of steering forces required for feedback systems, look at the design on the second page using the frame and steering from a 125.
https://hal.inria.fr/file/index/docid/515559/filename/Final.pdf (https://hal.inria.fr/file/index/docid/515559/filename/Final.pdf)
WOW!! that is some complicated stuff :o
(note to self: leave these threads alone and let the technical guys carry on in peace lol)
lol ;)
Beside all the techie stuff i was surprised at just how small the steering feedback motor is in that rig, even the peak current required to give a decent 'snap' to the response is only 12amps, easily do-able with an old PC psu. This is with full width bars, scale it to something more mini-moto sized in bar width which would be better for a desk top anyway and the power requirements would be even lower.
Quote from: h106frp on December 09, 2014, 10:42:51 AM
Interesting link (.pdf) for a bike simulator and estimation of steering forces required for feedback systems, look at the design on the second page using the frame and steering from a 125.
https://hal.inria.fr/file/index/docid/515559/filename/Final.pdf (https://hal.inria.fr/file/index/docid/515559/filename/Final.pdf)
Indeed, very interesting document :D
As far as i know, this simulator is an University project.
Here is a video related to this simulator ( in french 8) ):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXPPfuL9uzE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXPPfuL9uzE)
Thanks for the great links guys very interesting. Much of the motion we require for a racing rig still missing but close for a good system in many ways
DD
Quote from: h106frp on December 09, 2014, 10:42:51 AM
Interesting link (.pdf) for a bike simulator and estimation of steering forces required for feedback systems, look at the design on the second page using the frame and steering from a 125.
https://hal.inria.fr/file/index/docid/515559/filename/Final.pdf (https://hal.inria.fr/file/index/docid/515559/filename/Final.pdf)
Their FFB system design is interesting (double pulley-belt). Probably less precise than proper gears, but much cheaper.
Notice that:
- The bike model used is very very simple (and linear). Much simpler than the GPB one. No biggie for their purpose I guess.
- The input they use is, guess what, the rider steering torque.
- The rider steering torque is not measured (which as I said is relatively hard in general) but estimated via the FFB system. Smart. This is a way to implement what I said a while ago : a FFB sistem in which instead of having the bar/wheel position as input of the simulator and the FFB magnitude as output, one has kind of the opposite: the rider/driver applied torque is the input of the system, the bar/wheel angle is the output.
Overall, it's pretty basic stuff from a control point of view. The hardware they use looks interesting however.
Side note: Lol !! Just noticed the link address: I worked at Inria for 5-6 months (a long time ago) :)
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on December 09, 2014, 08:16:01 PMThis is a way to implement what I said a while ago : a FFB sistem in which instead of having the bar/wheel position as input of the simulator and the FFB magnitude as output, one has kind of the opposite: the rider/driver applied torque is the input of the system, the bar/wheel angle is the output.
I would say that's the only way to do it...
Quote from: wkp on December 11, 2014, 09:07:47 AM
Quote from: HornetMaX on December 09, 2014, 08:16:01 PMThis is a way to implement what I said a while ago : a FFB sistem in which instead of having the bar/wheel position as input of the simulator and the FFB magnitude as output, one has kind of the opposite: the rider/driver applied torque is the input of the system, the bar/wheel angle is the output.
I would say that's the only way to do it...
Yep, but it's definitely not the way it's done in all current steering wheels (for cars the problem is identical: in reality your input is a torque), and nobody in the car-sim world seems to be complaining.
MaX.
Very good suggestions coming out here, but you are all forgetting one major factor and that is that you are still sitting in a room and there are not all of the forces of nature being applied to you physically. This lack of natural forces make the riders input over sensitive in feeling. What I am trying to say is you can not just use written down physics, figures from books and calculating this and that wont work properly as you are not fighting mother natures forces. You have to look outside the box and think differently. My SPSS steering is totally wrong if you look at it from the real bike side of it and the theory side from physics books, BUT it works when using it!!! Now take that a step further and a motion system is not made from figures but physical feeling and plain engineering to start with but the motion system is far more involved than any of the papers have shown us yet. The shear velocities of movement are one of the biggest problems to overcome and then in all the different directions at one time. All these University rigs are precise in moving for a simple plod around town, but put them in a real racing scenario and they fail. They are too slow and unrealistic to the actual feeling you get on a real bike. All rigs I have seen so far stay facing in a straight line as if the bike is riding on the motorway the whole time. Think about a bikes attitude as the back wheel is coming round to kiss the forks, aint no way in hell you can replicate that if the bike just stays straight!!! You have to have pure lateral movement too and also one that pivots the system at the steering head. Just turning the bars is wrong, the whole bike behind the forks swings left and right. I have been working on this problem for years and it is a very costly project. I think it will take a major chunk of money to produce a motion system that works and hope to one day do it.
I love this conversation it has some real deep thoughts in it and really makes this a forum for a true sim like GPB what it is. I have a meeting with the Regional Enterprise Manager from NatWest bank on Monday , my birthday so it has to go good lol and hope to somehow take this conversation to the next level. Wish me luck guys.
Im real busy setting up this new business but as soon as I get a bit more time than just popping in here I will post some designs to further explain what I mean.
Until then think on and keep it sunny side up.
DD
Good luck with the business, i'm sure you can convince the business manager and your designs appear well received by those who have constructed them.
I think we do have 2 separate camps here though, the full simulation experience and the 'decent' steering controller. I have no arguments about the requirements for full simulation, feeling the back end of the bike step out on the throttle or sliding under power requires full axis simulation and i do hope you can devise a rig for this. However i would be happy for now just to have a steering controller that gave some sense of genuine motorbike steering input beyond the left/right we get at the moment, if decent FF can allow for some feel of counter steering it would improve the experience greatly.
I fully agree h106. I have so many requests for a set of bars to fit G25/27 as I built one already and I will make this an option for those who want a handlebar system/FFB and not have to spend too much but get the basics to them. It is easy as my system can do this but will limit the plug n play to throttle, front brake and either clutch or rear brake. you simply unplug the G pedals and plug itn the bars and of you go. I can do switches for shifting too.
I just want to start with the basics so people have a real throttle and hand levers, the throttle makes it sooooooooo much better, its a major factor for a bike.
DD
Quote from: doubledragoncc on December 11, 2014, 01:50:13 PM
All rigs I have seen so far stay facing in a straight line as if the bike is riding on the motorway the whole time. Think about a bikes attitude as the back wheel is coming round to kiss the forks, aint no way in hell you can replicate that if the bike just stays straight!!!
Not sure I get it ... how does your system answer that ?!
Quote from: doubledragoncc on December 11, 2014, 01:50:13 PM
You have to have pure lateral movement too and also one that pivots the system at the steering head. Just turning the bars is wrong, the whole bike behind the forks swings left and right. I have been working on this problem for years and it is a very costly project. I think it will take a major chunk of money to produce a motion system that works and hope to one day do it.
Lateral movements ?! What for ?!
The last system had a yaw degree of freedom, which is good exactly to represent the rear coming round.
MaX.
My system does not, I was talking about systems in general not mine.
Maybe lateral is the wrong word, but for the sideways motion of the back sliding and as you say YAW is better word. Sorry for my dumbness lol.
DD
Quote from: doubledragoncc on December 11, 2014, 03:52:27 PM
My system does not, I was talking about systems in general not mine.
Maybe lateral is the wrong word, but for the sideways motion of the back sliding and as you say YAW is better word. Sorry for my dumbness lol.
Ah OK.
I was asking because some systems do actually have the possibility of doing lateral movements (e.g. the 6DOF platforms), but I don't think is something we need.
MaX.
Your right on that point. It is only the rear for if it slides out, but the front slides too!!! Makes you think right, I need to put it in pics rather than words. Its a bitch compared to a car rig lol.
DD
Its Friday and a good day to drag up an old interesting topic that hasn't reached a result yet but is getting there :)
Spurred on by recent talks of controllers I've been on a blast from the past reading up.
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on December 01, 2014, 10:28:14 PM
I would like bars on the desk that tilt left and right as well as turn (steer) l/r for counter steering.
This gets my +1. Every desktop design I have seen so far translates a controller style handlebar
turn to an on-screen
lean. I want a controller style handlebar lean to be an on screen lean. To keep absolute simplicity as the key forget counter steer and the like.
So, on a handlebar style controller replace turn pot with lean pot, simulate gyroscopic counter forces with a big fat spring.
Simples innit? :D
Cue mechanical engineers to show me the error of my ways.......
Quote from: Napalm Nick on May 22, 2015, 11:45:15 AM
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on December 01, 2014, 10:28:14 PM
I would like bars on the desk that tilt left and right as well as turn (steer) l/r for counter steering.
This gets my +1. Every desktop design I have seen so far translates a controller style handlebar turn to an on-screen lean. I want a controller style handlebar lean to be an on screen lean. To keep absolute simplicity as the key forget counter steer and the like.
So, on a handlebar style controller replace turn pot with lean pot, simulate gyroscopic counter forces with a big fat spring.
Simples innit? :D
Cue mechanical engineers to show me the error of my ways.......
I'm not a mech eng but I can tell you what bob is asking won't work. In GPB you have 1 input: it's either the bike lean angle or (if using DSA/DST) the steering angle/torque.
With what bob is asking you'd have 2 inputs: how would GPB use them !?
MaX.
Just a little tease - still messing with my ideas and it is a lot of work to get right, working in game though :-) Next step is to get the input controller side working.
https://www.youtube.com/v/YfeA1X4z21s
It's alive!! 8) lol Looks amazing man. If it's working in-game what's the input controller side of things relate to?
At the moment i'm driving with a joystick and its following the bike model steer and lean - this has been an important step in making it safe and getting the rig truly under control with the sims control deflection outputs (crashing the bike was way too dramatic at first and would probably have lead to real injuries, the added mini moto steering damper solved a lot of issues, cheap but wish it was adjustable though). Already lots of software and circuit board mods to get this far.
I just need to connect up my Bodnar board now for the brakes/throttle/buttons and steer inputs now. The original concept is to have torque steering, the steering stem is already instrumented and works as a transducer. This all means more circuit board building though for all the signal conditioning.
A lot of fun so far, just need to keep building!
Just realized if you watch with audio the 'squeaking' and 'clanking' noises are from the tap wrench handle im using as a (loose) clevis between the steer motor and bar stem rubbing on the frame (its temporary and will eventually be replaced with a taper pin). The bearing and controls are actually very smooth :-)
Great stuff !!
I'd only advise to be sure to also have the option to use your steering in the "usual" way (i.e. target lean input). Just in case the torque steering proves to be a PITA :)
Question: right now you're redirecting the steering angle (GPB output) to your steering motor or are you using GPB FFB signal ?
You kinda already answered that (steering angle), just to be sure ...
MaX.
At the moment its taking the steering angle to set the bar position, it is 'relatively' simple to swap this for bar torque for a simpler typical force feedback arrangement. I have wondered if you could 'mix' the 2 signals together (probably in my PC software host program) and have bar position with added 'force feedback'.
The raw signal from the feedback potentiometer used by the steering servo is already a suitable 0 to 5 volt signal that could be fed directly to the game steer input.
Posted this due to the comment that it would be nice if the Shark desktop controller (very nice implementation by the way) could also lean. Hopefully this video demonstrates that this can be accomplished relatively easily with an added 'roll' platform for the existing controller.
It might also be interesting to rotate the Shark controller( redesign the desk mount) to place the bars into a more typical 'vertical steering angle rake' position rather than the current car steering wheel horizontal position. I think it might feel a bit more 'natural' in this orientation.
Awesome !!
keep going. Shark must lean too yes.
You don't get more realism than realistic injuries.
I have put a couple of £ on the donations chair. 8)
Quote from: Napalm Nick on May 22, 2015, 04:54:42 PM
Awesome !!
keep going. Shark must lean too yes.
You don't get more realism than realistic injuries.
I have put a couple of £ on the donations chair. 8)
Had to raid the piggy bank for some bacon butty money this morning, hence the huge pile of coins in the background.. ;D
Wow! Looks amazing mate.... Very nice indeed!! ;D ;D 8) 8)
Hawk.
Looks amazing mate... makes me feel like I should rob a bank and get back to the drawing board for my rig :)
Cheers,
/David "Gonzo" Boda #46
Quote from: h106frp on May 22, 2015, 04:52:07 PM
At the moment its taking the steering angle to set the bar position, it is 'relatively' simple to swap this for bar torque for a simpler typical force feedback arrangement. I have wondered if you could 'mix' the 2 signals together (probably in my PC software host program) and have bar position with added 'force feedback'.
Here's where the problems start likely. You have to decide what goes out from GPB and what goes into GPB.
The usual approach is: control device sends a position (angle) to the game, the game sends a FFB signal to the device.
The alternative approach is the dual: control device sending a torque signal to the game, the game sends a position (angle) to the device. This of course may only be suitable for DST and, at least on paper, should be the most accurate translation of the reality. For anything else than DST, the usual approach makes more sense.
MaX.
That is absolutely brilliant H. It looks so well made and with quality components. I think it must be the only system with FFB in any way and it looks like you have made a real breakthrough m8. Fantastic work.
DD
Good job h106frp! ;)
Hi all,
I need to read out OS Q172HCPU motion controller old and install to new one,but i dont know how.Anybody can help me,please?
Or anybody have OS Q172HCPU motion controller SV13 S303210U can you share or sell it.I really need it
Thanks in advance.
(https://scontent-frt3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xla1/v/t1.0-9/12512514_1062190450467891_6971482150820930391_n.jpg?oh=2fba5951cb76776b5dc2c620741ddd34&oe=5705BD65)
Crapola another Dorna rep :o
Is that you JJ? Did you buy it at last?
Does that thing have the proper steering axis?
Is he riding it or making love to it! Hehe! ;D
Bring back "Old School"... So much more civilized. :P ;D
Hawk.
its tito rabat!! in the back of a van?? ???