This is the kind of dyno tests we need to capture sounds.
Running with load at diferent rpms. Been trying with this one, but the quality of the sound isn't good enough , damn fan makes a lot of noise , imposible to clean it in a sound editor.
With Max tool is easy to make them if we had good samples .......... shame we haven't a dynorun owner in the forum :-\
https://www.youtube.com/v/Qaie_AQ7PNM
I've got a guitar
https://www.youtube.com/v/PR6S74IVHWs
I had my bike in on the dyno last week.. Did about 35 runs lol. Had some work done.. Skimmed head etc etc.
I really need the kit to record the sounds but I just cannot afford it at the moment :( shame because its an ideal opportunity. Sorry warlock :-\
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=423386441172403&fref=nf
::)
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on April 14, 2015, 10:15:11 AM
I had my bike in on the dyno last week.. Did about 35 runs lol. Had some work done.. Skimmed head etc etc.
I really need the kit to record the sounds but I just cannot afford it at the moment :( shame because its an ideal opportunity. Sorry warlock :-\
Thanks m8, no problem, we can't force anyone , ...or can we? ;D
Anyway it needs a certain amount of quality , that fan and the poor sound on the video i posted ruined it.
Quote from: Alone on April 14, 2015, 11:39:56 AM
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=423386441172403&fref=nf
::)
I didn't forget you Alone, i've been 2 weeks searching for a usefull dyno run on a 500cc,......no luck ::)
The video you posted has a good quality sound, but is useless because has no steady acceleration on load, thats why i posted with the requeriments of the dyno run.
I have to try with the granular thing though, with this one..... but i can download sounds from youtube videos only, i can't with this one, any thoughts?
Agree, Warlock ! +1
But even if it's silent around, the quality must be perfect, no reverb/echoes due to the room (if in closed area) etc..
For now we can only rip sounds from videos and merge some for 2 strokes. :lol:
Is a dyno test free btw ?
Quote from: Wh1t34Gl3(SAS) on April 14, 2015, 01:09:51 PM
Agree, Warlock ! +1
But even if it's silent around, the quality must be perfect, no reverb/echoes due to the room (if in closed area) etc..
For now we can only rip sounds from videos and merge some for 2 strokes. :lol:
Is a dyno test free btw ?
Indeed a good quality is essential.
The quality already gets cropped when you convert the loop to mono, so it must be very good one to keep some quality once converted
Quote from: Napalm Nick on April 14, 2015, 08:16:04 AM
I've got a guitar
https://www.youtube.com/v/PR6S74IVHWs
lol, i also have a guitar, but i cant imagine getting a 500cc sound from there ;D
But you can get some good i44s sounds with an electric guitar ! o/
Since a few i searched a way of reproducing 2 strokes sounds.
I'll try merging and lowerize the volume of i3 (and maybe i4) sounds from tdu with gpb single2s ones (once i have recorded them). I hope it'll be good enough.
Quote from: Warlock on April 14, 2015, 01:09:09 PM
I didn't forget you Alone, i've been 2 weeks searching for a usefull dyno run on a 500cc,......no luck ::)
The video you posted has a good quality sound, but is useless because has no steady acceleration on load, thats why i posted with the requeriments of the dyno run.
I have to try with the granular thing though, with this one..... but i can download sounds from youtube videos only, i can't with this one, any thoughts?
I know that you never forget, mate :) , just joking ;D . I´m a little stuck anyway. I have no idea how to DL sounds from other videos outside youtube.
Quote from: Alone on April 14, 2015, 02:26:47 PM
Quote from: Warlock on April 14, 2015, 01:09:09 PM
I didn't forget you Alone, i've been 2 weeks searching for a usefull dyno run on a 500cc,......no luck ::)
The video you posted has a good quality sound, but is useless because has no steady acceleration on load, thats why i posted with the requeriments of the dyno run.
I have to try with the granular thing though, with this one..... but i can download sounds from youtube videos only, i can't with this one, any thoughts?
I know that you never forget, mate :) , just joking ;D . I´m a little stuck anyway. I have no idea how to DL sounds from other videos outside youtube.
I think if you the record the video with MSI Afterburner, and then import it into a video editing suit, you can then save the sound file as a dedicated sound file you can then work with in a sound editing suite?
Just a thought. ;)
Hawk.
Thanks Hawk i'll give it a try.
Quote from: Wh1t34Gl3(SAS) on April 14, 2015, 01:37:23 PM
Since a few i searched a way of reproducing 2 strokes sounds.
I'll try merging and lowerize the volume of i3 (and maybe i4) sounds from tdu with gpb single2s ones (once i have recorded them). I hope it'll be good enough.
i3 and i4 ? what is that ? ??? lol
Inline 3 and 4. I might not get the exact sound, but a similar one.
Ah cool, ... I try with any single sound i can get a steady run from, even a chainsaw lol ;D and RC plane engines.
I got somewhere close with these ones, but not enough for my taste.
Quote from: Hawk UK on April 14, 2015, 07:57:51 PM
Quote from: Alone on April 14, 2015, 02:26:47 PM
Quote from: Warlock on April 14, 2015, 01:09:09 PM
I didn't forget you Alone, i've been 2 weeks searching for a usefull dyno run on a 500cc,......no luck ::)
The video you posted has a good quality sound, but is useless because has no steady acceleration on load, thats why i posted with the requeriments of the dyno run.
I have to try with the granular thing though, with this one..... but i can download sounds from youtube videos only, i can't with this one, any thoughts?
I know that you never forget, mate :) , just joking ;D . I´m a little stuck anyway. I have no idea how to DL sounds from other videos outside youtube.
I think if you the record the video with MSI Afterburner, and then import it into a video editing suit, you can then save the sound file as a dedicated sound file you can then work with in a sound editing suite?
That's definitely possible, but the end result is crap.
You take the original sound, you record it the right way (let's assume), but then this goes into a youtube video, meaning the audio is some crappy compressed format. Now you take this and you resample t back to a .wav, then you apply all the processing to make it usable and ... and you get crap. Plus a tons of your time wasted :)
MaX.
Is the sound in the video kind of distorted since it's bouncing all over the inside of that room. I'm sure a dyno outside in the open would sound totally different.
To make sounds work in gpb, it's mono 23000Hz*16bits, is that right ?
>Klax
Doing it outside would have other constraints. Like wind, animals etc...
Yes, mono - 16bits
Ouuw... It will be much more harder than expected.. I watched some rd500 videos, and depending on the point of view and the intensity of the throttle, the 4 cylinder sound is more or less heard. Then this sound when stagnating the revs...
I'll try my best..
Yes, It is hard, if not impossible to make an acceptable 2 stroke sound, without a real good sample.
Too many times i tried with no luck.
A 2stroke sound has a very special personality based on some subtle details, it also varies a lot depending of throttle and load.
I also found the importance of resonances and echoes bouncing on environment, which have a huge impact on what we hear in real life.
Something in my opinion is imposible in mono.
Check this out , minute 1:20
https://www.youtube.com/v/_KMU8UbmFak
https://www.youtube.com/v/41QG2MS6u0Q
There's much more things to take in mind to simulate sounds. If we think a bit about it, it's a really basic sound simulation. (and quite old now, since it was used in tdu1 already)
I'll watch these videos when i'm back home and i'll try to make some loopable sounds from the video i made on the 125 2s.
Edit: a problem with riping sounds from a video, the layer1 samples cannot be ripped. :|
That corner is mega!! I wanna ride my bike now :P
lol ;D
Quote from: Warlock on April 16, 2015, 10:44:08 PM
I also found the importance of resonances and echoes bouncing on environment, which have a huge impact on what we hear in real life.
Something in my opinion is imposible in mono.
Well, it's just the sound samples that are mono: the GPB sound engine is stereo.
So it's in general up to the engine to reproduce these effects: you don't have to capture them in the samples.
But for GPB I don't think ambient-specific processing is very important: we don't ride too much in tunnels, under bridges etc. Most of the time it's open air, on a track.
It's different for WRS, where you're sitting inside a car.
MaX.
>Max
Doesn't mean it should be ignored. As an ultra-realistic simulation, gpb should cover every little details. (an electronic starter would be awesome too! Why hasn't it been implemented.. D:)
I'm not sure I would include an electronic starter for a GP Bike simulator, but anyway..... :P
What I wanted to say was that personally I think Piboso should really go to town on the sound capabilities on GPB. It's amazing the difference it will make to the rider while he's riding, those subtle differences in noise from ambient sounds to onboard engine sounds need good sound capabilities to make that difference.
Hawk.
If I remember right, WSBK have electric starters like road bikes. I know if you watch older WSBK races from say 2008, they had the MotoGP kind of spin the back tire starter. But now they do it from the handle bars. They had been saying WSBK and been getting to far away from the idea of SBK, and was becoming to much of a prototype series.
Add the fact that there's off track bikes. So, why not ? Would be quite weird to not be able to restart a Z1000 or an fz6. ;D
Edit: Hum.. As i expected, the 4 strokes sounds are more deep, less light. The mix isn't really sounding like real 4c 2s. But still continuing.
Since i can't rip the 125's layer1 sounds, the new sound will only use one layer of sounds for both layers.
Edit2: deleted the sounds without seeing it.. Will have to remake everything again.. *facepalm*
My last sounds use just 1 original sample for all. I do several copies of the sample and tune them for the different steps, low, mid, high, and for the different layers.
Is the only way i could made smooth transitions between them. And both layers sound like a single one, is awfulll when you can hear both layers since the sound engine mix both layers in different proportions depending of the throttle.
They don't sound like i would like and for sure far from a real sound, but at least they have smooth transitions.
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 17, 2015, 12:59:44 PM
Well, it's just the sound samples that are mono: the GPB sound engine is stereo.
True
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 17, 2015, 12:59:44 PM
So it's in general up to the engine to reproduce these effects: you don't have to capture them in the samples.
Also true, the sound engine seems not good enough for this, unfortunately.
For me, sound is 50% of a racing experience, very very important for an immersive simulation.
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 17, 2015, 12:59:44 PM
But for GPB I don't think ambient-specific processing is very important: we don't ride too much in tunnels, under bridges etc. Most of the time it's open air, on a track.
It's different for WRS, where you're sitting inside a car.
MaX.
Sorry to disagree on this. I think these effects are crucial for a realistic sound (apart of good samples and sounds of course)
No need to be inside a tunnel to hear them.
I would say these are open air tracks, and imo the effect is quite noticeable:
https://www.youtube.com/v/zT0hX7fBKl8
https://www.youtube.com/v/gT4XEdydo2E
+1 Warlock! ;)
I agree, sound including ambient sound is a VERY important part of simulation to enable immersion. I point in particular the difference between the sound for the onboard rider to the sound heard from another rider who is close by. The lack of quality(the lack of ability to simulate ambient sounds over different channels in GPB at different levels) is partly the reason we currently get engine sound washouts in GPB when other riders are near. So sound and ambient sounds correctly simulated are VERY important in a simulation.
Hawk
Quote from: Warlock on April 18, 2015, 04:20:42 AM
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 17, 2015, 12:59:44 PM
But for GPB I don't think ambient-specific processing is very important: we don't ride too much in tunnels, under bridges etc. Most of the time it's open air, on a track.
It's different for WRS, where you're sitting inside a car.
MaX.
Sorry to disagree on this. I think these effects are crucial for a realistic sound (apart of good samples and sounds of course)
No need to be inside a tunnel to hear them.
I would say these are open air tracks, and imo the effect is quite noticeable:
But your examples are from spectator point of view, I was talking for the rider (so either rider pov or 3rd person "chase" pov).
For spectator pov yes, more advanced sound processing may bring something. But do we really care ?
Quote from: Hawk UK on April 18, 2015, 07:36:53 AM
I agree, sound including ambient sound is a VERY important part of simulation to enable immersion. I point in particular the difference between the sound for the onboard rider to the sound heard from another rider who is close by.
GPB already has positional sound. For bikes and rider/chase view, there's not a lot one can add.
Implementing some sort of "ambient occlusion for sounds" (i.e. the effect of a nearby building on the sound) is a fairly complex stuff (and may eat up some significant cpu).
For some games it's interesting (e.g. FPS), not sure for us.
One thing that may be of interest is having multiple sound sources on the bike (e.g. exhaust, engine, airbox): bt can you imagine how difficult it will be to create a proper sound then ?
I agree sound is very important (no doubt) and I agree sounds in GPB seems to be a bit below par to some other sims, but I have no idea what could be improved aside having better samples and sound-knowledgeable people to work on them.
Quote from: Hawk UK on April 18, 2015, 07:36:53 AM
The lack of quality(the lack of ability to simulate ambient sounds over different channels in GPB at different levels) is partly the reason we currently get engine sound washouts in GPB when other riders are near.
What do you mean exactly with "different channels" ?
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 18, 2015, 08:09:40 AM
GPB already has positional sound. For bikes and rider/chase view, there's not a lot one can add.
Then why do we get the same engine sound on-board as off-board and same engine sound drowning out your bike engine sound from another bike? Surely this would not happen with true positional sound, as in because the sounds are coming from different positions relative to your own they would sound different; if they did then that would make a huge difference in realism of the sound.
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 18, 2015, 08:09:40 AM
Implementing some sort of "ambient occlusion for sounds" (i.e. the effect of a nearby building on the sound) is a fairly complex stuff (and may eat up some significant cpu).
For some games it's interesting (e.g. FPS), not sure for us.
One thing that may be of interest is having multiple sound sources on the bike (e.g. exhaust, engine, airbox): bt can you imagine how difficult it will be to create a proper sound then ?
I agree sound is very important (no doubt) and I agree sounds in GPB seems to be a bit below par to some other sims, but I have no idea what could be improved aside having better samples and sound-knowledgeable people to work on them.
I would rather have to learn how to create complicated sound files in GPB than have to make do with sound that just doesn't sound correct. ;)
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 18, 2015, 08:09:40 AM
What do you mean exactly with "different channels" ?
MaX.
I mean being able to have separate channels of sound that when mixed and synced properly create the sound your looking for. Like real music composers do when they create music on a pc. Because creating an engine/bike sound is very much the same as creating a piece of music... Well that's the way I see it. I mean having different sounds for each engine cylinder firing, exhaust emmision and carburettor inductions, the spinning of the dry clutch assembly, even the sound of the chain spinning.... it's all in there as part of the engine/bike noise and vibration sounds varying under different loads depending on throttle position and load of the engine. Complicated yes, but to someone who knows what they are doing in creating sounds and using the correct software to create these sounds it is very possible; even to break down these component sounds from within a real sound sample is possible given the software to do it. From there you could then begin to fill-out and build the sound your looking for before implementing it into GPB.
Granted Piboso would
probably/maybe have to totally redesign the way GPB calls on sounds to do this? But I think the realism that would result would be well worth the effort. Would this overload the CPU? I doubt it given the power of CPU's these days. But some of the CPU work in GPB currently could possibly be offloaded onto the GPU, because I'm sure the CPU is doing graphical work that todays GPU's are design and able to handle to save CPU time. Or is that a limitation of OPENGL in that the graphics work is CPU intensive compared to what Direct X is capable of with offloading a lot of graphical work through the GPU? I really don't know but that would be interesting, but that's another subject altogether. Lol
Hawk.
If it gets that complicated, nobody will be able to create sounds.
By the way, GPB already has a separate sound for "transmission whine", as it has sounds dedicated to tyres squeaking and brakes whining.
And the sound in GPB is positional no doubt: just take a spectator view and listen to a bike pass by.
CPU cost would be a hit only if someone aims for ambient sound occlusion: having 2 or 4 extra "channels" to mix is not a problem.
Anyway, looking at what's happening on KRP forums after beta13 release, I guess Piboso has other stuff to take care of at the moment. And way more important than sound, unfortunately.
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 18, 2015, 11:52:25 AM
If it gets that complicated, nobody will be able to create sounds.
By the way, GPB already has a separate sound for "transmission whine", as it has sounds dedicated to tyres squeaking and brakes whining.
And the sound in GPB is positional no doubt: just take a spectator view and listen to a bike pass by.
CPU cost would be a hit only if someone aims for ambient sound occlusion: having 2 or 4 extra "channels" to mix is not a problem.
Anyway, looking at what's happening on KRP forums after beta13 release, I guess Piboso has other stuff to take care of at the moment. And way more important than sound, unfortunately.
MaX.
Oh I know when watching in replay from a spectator point of view you can definitely hear the difference(I think they call it the Doppler effect?), but when on-board the difference is basically nil, and that is not correct. Even the sound from spectator view after the bike has gone paste you just doesn't sound right(it's too dulled), even 2 stroke engines sound like a four stroke. I just think that the sound setup is probably what I'd call a beta setup and hasn't been fine tuned at all as yet? But then maybe this should be obvious to us all with GPB still in beta format. :)
But yeah, agreed for sure there are many things in GPB that are way up the TODO list rather than this sound issue, but it's always good to discuss anything that riders would like to see improved in GPB for the future. ;)
Hawk.
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 18, 2015, 08:09:40 AM
But your examples are from spectator point of view, I was talking for the rider (so either rider pov or 3rd person "chase" pov).
For spectator pov yes, more advanced sound processing may bring something. But do we really care ?
I do care :P, i can imagine race videos with espectacular sounds , that could make me drowl :) , ...me and potential GPB buyers.
Yes i talk about spectator pov, but it would also affect onboard
Why people do go to IOM as spectator,......those sounds are just music for the ears ;D
Indeed this is more a wish than anything else, because we all know it's not going to happen before 2030 :P
Anyway, i don't know how this sound engine things works, or how to implement a new one. i would say its a library of classes and functions similar to any other programming language and a tool to compile them or similar, don't know.
Also don't know if GPB uses a comercial one, or custom designed.
Very interesting interview about sound development i found:
They even talk about REV , a tool i discovered some time ago ( that captures a sound ramp, based on granular synthesis. We talked about this in other posts in this forum) and its integration in Wwise sound engine
http://designingsound.org/2014/08/vehicle-engine-design-project-cars-forza-motorsport-5-and-rev/
Quote from: Warlock on April 18, 2015, 11:07:56 PM
I do care :P, i can imagine race videos with espectacular sounds , that could make me drowl :) , ...me and potential GPB buyers.
Yeah yeah, true. But I don't want to watch GPB replays: if I have to watch I can watch real races :)
Quote from: Warlock on April 18, 2015, 11:07:56 PM
Also don't know if GPB uses a comercial one, or custom designed.
AFAIK, GPB uses openAL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenAL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenAL)). It's a generic thing (i.e. it's not dedicated to racing and not even to games), but it's free and cross-platform, I guess these 2 characteristics sealed the deal with Piboso.
Quote from: Warlock on April 18, 2015, 11:08:12 PM
Very interesting interview about sound development i found:
They even talk about REV , a tool i discovered some time ago ( that captures a sound ramp, based on granular synthesis. We talked about this in other posts in this forum) and its integration in Wwise sound engine
http://designingsound.org/2014/08/vehicle-engine-design-project-cars-forza-motorsport-5-and-rev/
Very interesting indeed. But if I read correctly what Greg is saying in the 1st part, all of the new stuff is used mostly in sound creation: the implementation is still mostly loop based, like GPB.
Which more or less was my point: put some black magic in the samples and GPB can sound good (maybe not stunning, but much better than what we have today on most of the mod bikes, some of which I can't ride because my ears start pissing blood after 500 meters ...). Translated: get good raw samples (note to some: you'll never succeed ripping from a youtube video), use REV (or whatever) and then slam the samples into GPB.
Interesting also what Stephen Baysted said about 1st person view: as I thought, most of the time you just filter (comb + low-pass) the "normal" sound to account for the earplug and helmet.
As you can see, nobody mentioned real time occlusion. Just googling it, I stumbled on this: http://docs.cryengine.com/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=18384659 (http://docs.cryengine.com/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=18384659)
So it is doable but still not sure it would give us alot (for an FPS, it does of course).
[side thoughts: cryengine can be "bought" by developers for 10$/E a month and a Linux version is apparently under development].
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 19, 2015, 08:20:10 AM
Quote from: Warlock on April 18, 2015, 11:07:56 PM
I do care :P, i can imagine race videos with espectacular sounds , that could make me drowl :) , ...me and potential GPB buyers.
Yeah yeah, true. But I don't want to watch GPB replays: if I have to watch I can watch real races :)
Well certainly I'd like to see GPB get to a quality were when races are streamed live, people would like to watch the GPB race events
almost the same as real MotoGP events, similar to what SimRacing have with their live streamed rFactor2 F1 Grand Prix's. But that won't happen till GPB V1.0 is released and further more, that we have a grid full of regular riders that are within a second of each other in race lap times(not hotlap times). Then I can see GPB really taking off and coming to life. ;D 8)
But right now I feel GPB is just maybe coming out of it's embryonic stage..... It's better now than before, but not yet ready to be born into the world. But unfortunately GPB is a
very slow growing project indeed. :P
Hawk.
I was wondering. Can we use 2 or more samples (in the scl) for the same sequence/moment ? For 2strokes that have multiple sounds with different variations, it would help for more precision.
Exemple:
- 1 sample for the mosquito sound common to all 2s.
- 1 sample for the crankshaft sound (vary depending on the cylinders number).
That's 2 samples in the scl playing on the same sequence of rpm in game, but more realistic render.
Just a thought..
Quote from: Wh1t34Gl3(SAS) on May 01, 2015, 03:18:08 AM
I was wondering. Can we use 2 or more samples (in the scl) for the same sequence/moment ?
Yes, of course. It's already the case when you transition from one sample to the next: one is fading out, the other is fading in, hence both are playing at the same time.
No idea if there's a limitation (max number of "simultaneous sounds").
MaX.
Thanks Max !
Mmhh.. Now there's still the separated sounds to record. xd