Seem to notice this a lot with low speed turns; the rider will just fall off the bike, nothing dramatic has occurred and the bike will often just roll on in the upright position.
It just like the rider has given up, let go of the bars and tipped of the bike - any idea what is happening?
If you post a video or screenshot it should be easy to tell. Is this happening mid corner, entry or exit? Your just coasting right, no brake/gas?
Yep, just coasting and often mid-corner.
I just cannot see why the rider gives up and falls off, the bike has not fallen over or thrown him and if the speed is very low surely he should just put his feet down.
I usually ride with first person view, maybe i should have a look at some replays in third person view and see if it helps.
What Bike/s and track/s is this happening at for you? If you could say which corner too it would help pinpoint the problem if it is a track surface issue.
If it's a track that I have the 3D source files for I could take a look and see if there is any issue with the track mesh at those points. ;)
Hawk.
Mallory hairpin if you get near the edge of the track and the default track last sharp downhill low speed corner seem to do it a lot.
Not sure it is a track issue as i believe Mallory is considered to be a very good track. More likely my own misunderstanding of how the virtual rider/physics interact- i suspect it might be to do with auto rider lean, i think he just leans (too much for the low speed) until he falls off the bike ??? ???
Quote from: h106frp on June 08, 2015, 07:46:41 AM
Mallory hairpin if you get near the edge of the track and the default track last sharp downhill low speed corner seem to do it a lot.
Not sure it is a track issue as i believe Mallory is considered to be a very good track. More likely my own misunderstanding of how the virtual rider/physics interact- i suspect it might be to do with auto rider lean, i think he just leans (too much for the low speed) until he falls off the bike ??? ???
From what you say in your first post, I have the impression that it the rider that jumps off the bike and leaves the bike rolling forward? Or are you talking about the well known front end folding away(washing away as some say) leaving the rider on his arse and the bike on the ground?
Most bike physics in my opinion have not been tested properly for such corners on good track surfaces such as the Mallory Park 1978 hairpin(rising uphill corner) or Silverstone GP corner 13(rising uphill) and therefore their front end is left unstable for these types of corner. Proof to me of this is that other bikes I've ridden around those corners take them with no instabilities whatsoever, most bikes don't. So my conclusion is that it is a bike physics problem and bike physics modders should test their physics on these type of corners to make sure they are set-up properly.
There is also a virtual rider issue that Piboso has said still needs tweaking to get right, so this also adds to this problem. Hope Beta 7 has a resolution. :)
Mallory Park 1978 is considered a good track surface, but again, in my opinion, and I've read this about simulators, sticking religiously to real life data is good to a certain point, but it still needs a person with experience of whatever it is your simulating to come in and enable you to tweak settings to get an actual real representation of the real object your simulating. I get the feeling that bike physics modders are currently wanting to religiously stick to the real data and then blame the simulation physics for a poor performance.
Simulators cannot take into account all possible variables that exist in the real world, otherwise we'd have all simulators calculating fluid dynamics in real-time for instance. So yeah, as I say, in my opinion, putting real data into simulators gets you to an approximate representation of the real thing but that data still needs adjustments to tweak for a realistic performance inside the simulator by testing with someone with experienced knowledge of how the object should be reacting in all kinds of situations.
I'm sure others will disagree with this, but that's okay too. :P 8)
Hawk.
Hmm would a test track be useful I wonder ? One incorporating all types of camber, elevation changes, and corner types for testing physics purposes? A kind of test track 'standard' for modders to pass their bikes at.
Probably not till after B7. We will see. Like 'peeking' at presents early I sure would like a 'peek' at the B7 changelog.
Yes, its the rider leaping from a perfectly upright bike thats confusing me (almost like he fell asleep due to my dull riding), not the (randomly) folding front end.
Its mainly when i run into the turn too hot, have lost a lot of speed, made the turn, and then he just falls of the bike and the bike rolls on upright, very confusing.
It always happens at very low speed, and now you suggest it when an incline is involved so i suspect the virtual rider model is misbehaving. Maybe wait for b7 and see if it persists.
Mallory is one of the few tracks i have ridden in real life (modern circuit) with the race school that used to operate there :) 8). Never fell of on the hairpin though, but i have done it numerous times in GPB. ;D Most of the GPB track seems pretty good but 'devils elbow' seems a bit tame compared to real life, found that a challenge to get on the gas for the straight without the back stepping out on the camber; in game its easy :)
I agree, a standard test environment would be great for bike modders. A proven track with a series of challenging features much like real world testing.
Probably would not even need to be a track just some sort of rolling road where you could throw forces at the model and ensure it behave properly.
QuoteHmm would a test track be useful I wonder ? One incorporating all types of camber, elevation changes, and corner types for testing physics purposes? A kind of test track 'standard' for modders to pass their bikes at.
+100000 :)
A test track is really missing.
I use Victoria for bike development because it´s the track Piboso programmed the bikes on but i think also on Victoria not all corners are error free....especially lukey heights...
Never had the rider fall off on those corners... But, Mugello!!! I touched a curb aaarrggghh jump for your life!! ::)
QuoteBut, Mugello!!! I touched a curb aaarrggghh jump for your life!!
oh dear...yes.....it´s really ambarrassing....especially the chicane before the start/finish line.....arrgghhhhhh.
So the main problem is we did not really know if it´s a problem of the bike physic or a problem of the track model(ler) or maybe a combination of both ;)
Does anybody know of a mod bike that is considered a 'very sorted' reference with its default settings?
Its strange... It seems if you are agressive you can ''sometimes'' get away with riding over the curbs at mugello.. Although they feel very slippery. Touch the curb slightly and the rider jumps off and dissapears lol.
Maybe in some tracks, the surface has grip/no grip.. Grip/no grip in small areas? (no nothing about track building)
Quote from: h106frp on June 08, 2015, 09:46:01 AM
Does anybody know of a mod bike that is considered a 'very sorted' reference with its default settings?
Try the R6, Aprilia rsa250..
I think the SBK bikes have the most planted/smooth front end around corners but you do need to work on the setup a little bit to calm them down in general..
I would not say the RSA unfortunately, lovely as it is generally. This suffers the same as all the smaller bikes. Bigger is more stable for me.
Is this another hint at the problem?
Quote from: RIDER on June 07, 2015, 11:35:18 PM
If you post a video or screenshot it should be easy to tell.
A video please. Or at least a replay file.
MaX.
This could be too much corner speed, combined with bad steering corrections from the rider. Sudden camber changes at max lean often cause crashes if you don't account for the change in grip yourself. The rider doesn't account for the new max lean angle fast enough. Similarly if you run in hot in some slow corners at max lean, the rider will try to add lean angle for some reason. Maybe it detects the extra weight/grip at the front on entry, but your at mid corner by the time it adds lean. Playing with your direct lean setting might help.
Thanks everyone, lots of things to try out later.
Wish the bike would actually crash rather than the rider leaping off what would appear to be a perfectly good bike, would be a lot less confusing.
Getting on a lot better with the R6 bike model :) very few random events occurring now.
Also tried playing with 'direct lean', turned it up to about 65%, big difference and i am finding the bike much easier to control :) At low values of 'direct lean' the bike seems heavy on the steering and needs large amounts of opposite stick input (gamepad) to lift the bike out of a turn leading to a lot of stick wobbling to get the bike stable and upright.
Having fun with Mallory track and bike almost seems predictable :)
Then i thought i would try Nordschleife, horror!, bike very unstable and crashes while riding at constant throttle in a straight line :( - gave up with it for now.
I obviously have a lot to learn about how to get the game set up properly with different tracks and bikes.
Big ask.... Does GPB have a manual of any sort? It would be nice to have detailed explanations of the option settings and exactly how they effect the model as well as how all the network side of things work, and the garage settings, and ............ The forum has a lot of excellent info but it is spread all over the place.
Quote from: h106frp on June 10, 2015, 09:10:51 AM
Getting on a lot better with the R6 bike model :) very few random events occurring now.
Also tried playing with 'direct lean', turned it up to about 65%, big difference and i am finding the bike much easier to control :) At low values of 'direct lean' the bike seems heavy on the steering and needs large amounts of opposite stick input (gamepad) to lift the bike out of a turn leading to a lot of stick wobbling to get the bike stable and upright.
Having fun with Mallory track and bike almost seems predictable :)
Then i thought i would try Nordschleife, horror!, bike very unstable and crashes while riding at constant throttle in a straight line :( - gave up with it for now.
I obviously have a lot to learn about how to get the game set up properly with different tracks and bikes.
Big ask.... Does GPB have a manual of any sort? It would be nice to have detailed explanations of the option settings and exactly how they effect the model as well as how all the network side of things work, and the garage settings, and ............ The forum has a lot of excellent info but it is spread all over the place.
Max did a very good detailed manual of this kind here: http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=431.0 (http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=431.0) I think you'll find it very useful. ;)
Hawk.
I think all the different control settings can be a problem.. Just going by what iv tried in GPB..
Direct lean iv set at 35 (il check) if I use direct lean 100% it completely changes the handling.. Impossible for me.
With 35% I can still be busy on the thumb stick, lots of left/right and circle movements to make constant corrections..
With 100% that is impossible as the bike responds in a big way to the slightest movement of the thumb stick!
So it seems to me with direct lean 100% you have to be super steady picking up the bike etc because if you try before the bike is ''ready'' strange stuff happens lol.
With lower direct lean input the delay you get leaning left/right makes sense to me.. More of a feeling for weight transfer, putting the bike where it wants to be with the right timing.
Basicly with so many options its no wonder why there's so many different opinions about GPB..
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on June 10, 2015, 10:45:13 AM
I think all the different control settings can be a problem.. Just going by what iv tried in GPB..
Direct lean iv set at 35 (il check) if I use direct lean 100% it completely changes the handling.. Impossible for me.
With 35% I can still be busy on the thumb stick, lots of left/right and circle movements to make constant corrections..
With 100% that is impossible as the bike responds in a big way to the slightest movement of the thumb stick!
So it seems to me with direct lean 100% you have to be super steady picking up the bike etc because if you try before the bike is ''ready'' strange stuff happens lol.
With lower direct lean input the delay you get leaning left/right makes sense to me.. More of a feeling for weight transfer, putting the bike where it wants to be with the right timing.
I use 100% direct lean but I use a joystick so judging the bikes lean angle is directly correlated to the angle of my joystick so it's easier for me that way. If I use an Xbox gamepad(like I used to) it has circular stick stops and if you use the y/z axis of the same stick for accelerator and brake, as I do, you end up not being able to fully lean the bike over. This is why I changed back to using a joystick controller.
Can't wait till there is a proper motorcycle controller released! I'll be one of the first to buy! ;D ;D
Hawk.
Wonderful stuff by MaX, i am blind and i did miss the sticky for the manual :-[ :-[
Be nice if it was available as a pdf though
It is difficult to visualize the effect of adjusting the controller values and they do have quite a dramatic effect on how the bike model responds. Some sort of graph or test window of controller input vs bike movement might be a nice addition to the setup screen.
QuoteI think all the different control settings can be a problem.. Just going by what iv tried in GPB..
Direct lean iv set at 35 (il check) if I use direct lean 100% it completely changes the handling.. Impossible for me.
With 35% I can still be busy on the thumb stick, lots of left/right and circle movements to make constant corrections..
With 100% that is impossible as the bike responds in a big way to the slightest movement of the thumb stick!
So it seems to me with direct lean 100% you have to be super steady picking up the bike etc because if you try before the bike is ''ready'' strange stuff happens lol.
+1
tried 100% direct lean...really unridable.
now at 25 or 35?? (have to get a look) it is playable using Xbox controller.
Quote from: h106frp on June 10, 2015, 09:10:51 AM
Also tried playing with 'direct lean', turned it up to about 65%, big difference and i am finding the bike much easier to control :) At low values of 'direct lean' the bike seems heavy on the steering and needs large amounts of opposite stick input (gamepad) to lift the bike out of a turn leading to a lot of stick wobbling to get the bike stable and upright.
What controller are you running with then H, not your custom rig?
Quote from: C21 on June 10, 2015, 11:10:42 AM
QuoteI think all the different control settings can be a problem.. Just going by what iv tried in GPB..
Direct lean iv set at 35 (il check) if I use direct lean 100% it completely changes the handling.. Impossible for me.
With 35% I can still be busy on the thumb stick, lots of left/right and circle movements to make constant corrections..
With 100% that is impossible as the bike responds in a big way to the slightest movement of the thumb stick!
So it seems to me with direct lean 100% you have to be super steady picking up the bike etc because if you try before the bike is ''ready'' strange stuff happens lol.
+1
tried 100% direct lean...really unridable.
now at 25 or 35?? (have to get a look) it is playable using Xbox controller.
It's really really a matter of habits. Yes, with 100% you do have to be steady, but it's not that hard, just need to get accustomed to.
Personally I just hate the principle that to pick up the bike from leaning left, you have to move the stick right past its mid point.
In past betas where the only options were 0% or 100%, I was definitely preferring 100% by a giant margin.
Now I use something less, but essentially anything between 70% and 100% is fine to me.
I'm sure I could force myself to use lower values (30-50%, lower than that it doesn't make sense to me), but I don't see the reason.
Bottom line: use anything you're comfy with (below 30% I still think it's very weird).
MaX.
Quote from: h106frp on June 10, 2015, 11:05:06 AM
Wonderful stuff by MaX, i am blind and i did miss the sticky for the manual :-[ :-[
Be nice if it was available as a pdf though
It is difficult to visualize the effect of adjusting the controller values and they do have quite a dramatic effect on how the bike model responds. Some sort of graph or test window of controller input vs bike movement might be a nice addition to the setup screen.
I can create a PDF file, but I don't know how to get all the links on the page working properly as they do on original page?
I just tried it and currently the links will open the actual forum page/position for that link. Any ideas?
Hawk.
Cut and paste it all into Word, then remap the links to anchors. 2 minute job, not lol.
Quote from: teeds on June 10, 2015, 11:12:25 AM
Quote from: h106frp on June 10, 2015, 09:10:51 AM
Also tried playing with 'direct lean', turned it up to about 65%, big difference and i am finding the bike much easier to control :) At low values of 'direct lean' the bike seems heavy on the steering and needs large amounts of opposite stick input (gamepad) to lift the bike out of a turn leading to a lot of stick wobbling to get the bike stable and upright.
What controller are you running with then H, not your custom rig?
xbox 360 controller for now as i like the triggers for throttle and brake. Its alright but a bit notchy on the sticks around the centers and the triggers are a bit unresponsive until they are about 30% in. Should probably strip it down and see if it can be 'fixed' ;)
Must get back to my steer rig but sidetracked by the EDTracker and actually got into playing the sim a lot more than i have before, it would now seem weird not having the freelook mode in first person.
Also want to get foot gear control working as the rubbish auto downshift is now responsible for most of my crashes, it seems to be related to the problem with the triggers as its easy to end up with the throttle shut off completely which causes huge downshifting and wheel lock ups.
I use a wheel, so just wanted to add a comparison to the gamepad users. In my tests I notice lower direct lean gives more stability over bumps and higher max lean angle. Im using 3% and that gives max corner speed, but still allows me to get the bike sideways whenever. 100 gives a faster response and better control, and works perfect for more of a point and shoot riding style because the rider doesn't automatically steer into slides to correct them. About 23% felt most realistic, but any setting can be fast with a wheel.
EDIT: I found out direct lean isn't working correctly for me, so disregard this post.