Just want to say that I personally would like to have longer races, more laps. :)
I say this because it totally alters the race from a sprint(anything below 15 laps) which favours the fast hotlap guys, to more of a strategy type race which helps bring the slower guys into the equation. It would just bring a little more realism into the events I feel.
Also I would like to see races that bring in the use of the Hard compound tyres, which again alters the type of race a rider runs(slower because of the compound, also not so able to hang it out there without falling like you can do with the soft compound; and it's not that often that the lap count or track has warranted the use of MED/Hard tyres. Would just be a nice change I think. :)
Anyway... Just some ideas to mull over to mix things up a bit more for the events.
Hawk.
Okedoke all good with me I have stuck it on our Suggestions List (http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?action=post;msg=32032;topic=2282.0) too which I delve into when I am seeking inspiration (good time to bump the topic to draw new members to it too).
We ran a long race at Aragon (borderline medium/long race) that made members contemplate Hards. We ran into temperature problems due to the hot day too. More info to make it strategic.
Do we have proof that aggressive riding wears the tyres more than strategic smoothness though? Is there a benefit for slower guys? Just feeding the conversation with thoughts.
Quote from: Napalm Nick on July 08, 2015, 04:18:37 PM
Do we have proof that aggressive riding wears the tyres more than strategic smoothness though?
Gooood question!
I tell you what might be a good track to test the theory - JJ's Hengelo.
It writes off a pair of Softs in about 6 laps so some casual riding there vs a mad thrash would give interesting results.
Are you accepting that chellenge BoB? ;D
my first thought is that an increase of three laps should not be underestimated.
for SSP 18 laps are a good race distance, maybe 20.
15 laps on a SSP are as well not that stressful as it is on a SBK bike.
in SBK CC the last laps were sometimes truly paintful in my tensed up hands.
so the race distance linked to the class you ride.
€: my personal relaxed to stressful racing class scale:
125cc - 250cc/Moto3 - Moto2 - SSP600 STK1000 - SBK/GP1000
Quote from: JJS209 on July 08, 2015, 05:08:17 PM
my first thought is that an increase of three laps should not be underestimated.
for SSP 18 laps are a good race distance, maybe 20.
15 laps on a SSP are as well not that stressful as it is on a SBK bike.
in SBK CC the last laps were sometimes truly paintful in my tensed up hands.
so the race distance linked to the class you ride.
€: my personal relaxed to stressful racing class scale:
125cc - 250cc/Moto3 - Moto2 - SSP600 STK1000 - SBK/GP1000
How are you going to manage in the "Classic Daytona 200 "race? That's going to be 50+ laps! ;D
No seriously I know what you mean because I tend to get numb hands after about 15 laps with my controller(I won't say Joystick or I'm bound to get some smart-alec making a smutty comment. Lol).
But anyway, this is at least in
part what I'm talking about with making longer races a totally different ball-game; riders will have to take it easier and relax more if they don't want there hands going numb or cramped.. Just part of a riders ability to win a race, right? Makes it more interesting than a sprint to the line over 10 - 15 laps. ;D 8)
Hawk.
i agree :)
Quote from: Napalm Nick on July 08, 2015, 04:18:37 PM
Okedoke all good with me I have stuck it on our Suggestions List (http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?action=post;msg=32032;topic=2282.0) too which I delve into when I am seeking inspiration (good time to bump the topic to draw new members to it too).
We ran a long race at Aragon (borderline medium/long race) that made members contemplate Hards. We ran into temperature problems due to the hot day too. More info to make it strategic.
Do we have proof that aggressive riding wears the tyres more than strategic smoothness though? Is there a benefit for slower guys? Just feeding the conversation with thoughts.
Thanks Nick. ;)
That is a very interesting question about the possibility of aggressive riding making tyres wear faster.... Would be fantastic if that was the case, though somehow I doubt that is the case but would definitely be worth testing to find out. ;D 8)
Well I think there is a benefit for slower riders in a long race.... A bit like the tortoise and the hair theory. I personally don't think most of the fast guys can adapt to a long strategic race(The gauntlet is thrown down! Let the rage begin! Hehe ;D). I think most of the fast hot-lap guys are hardwired into sprint type racing and will faulter mid-way and towards the end of a race?
But a longer race lends itself for riders to take it easier and make less mistakes... In other words, ride well within ourselves and not make so many mistakes(strategy); but this is just another
part of what I'm talking about with strategy for longer races.
It will be interesting how many of the fast guys continue to win races like they do now when racing the long races; also just how many of the slower guys start to win or dramatically come closer to winning in the longer races. It will be interesting. ;D 8)
Hawk.
Indy endurance race ;) ;) 50 laps enough :P
Lol i would do a 50 lapper 8) maybe.. ??? :D
id like some proper gp races too on the 500s or 1000s .. craving some more road racing after Hengelo though! great event that was ;D ;D maybe go again with dynamic surface sometime..
Nick.. yeah il do some laps see what happens, or maybe piboso could tell us?
We need a study into fuel capacity lol. Remember Spa? The GP250 couldn't hold enough for the original intended laps.
Having said that it could of if you tweaked the Drivetrain/gear ratios to extend fuel/lap (which it does for definite, because I specifically checked).
Next Track-race maybe we can look at the fuel useage/per lap (MaxHud) and work a race length close to full consumption which will then mean looking at tyre wear and choice. It will be interesting and perhaps ground not yet chartered? 8)
Late edit: Thanks Bob much appreciated ;)
Quote from: Napalm Nick on July 08, 2015, 10:18:01 PM
We need a study into fuel capacity lol. Remember Spa? The GP250 couldn't hold enough for the original intended laps.
Having said that it could of if you tweaked the Drivetrain/gear ratios to extend fuel/lap (which it does for definite, because I specifically checked).
Next Track-race maybe we can look at the fuel useage/per lap (MaxHud) and work a race length close to full consumption which will then mean looking at tyre wear and choice. It will be interesting and perhaps ground not yet chartered? 8)
Late edit: Thanks Bob much appreciated ;)
Could we not just adjust the fuel level of thw bikes (beta club 500 GP!)
Quote from: matty0l215 on July 09, 2015, 06:43:33 AM
Quote from: Napalm Nick on July 08, 2015, 10:18:01 PM
We need a study into fuel capacity lol. Remember Spa? The GP250 couldn't hold enough for the original intended laps.
Having said that it could of if you tweaked the Drivetrain/gear ratios to extend fuel/lap (which it does for definite, because I specifically checked).
Next Track-race maybe we can look at the fuel useage/per lap (MaxHud) and work a race length close to full consumption which will then mean looking at tyre wear and choice. It will be interesting and perhaps ground not yet chartered? 8)
Late edit: Thanks Bob much appreciated ;)
Could we not just adjust the fuel level of thw bikes (beta club 500 GP!)
+1 Matty
This is a good idea, but we would need permissions from the bike authors to alter the fuel capacity of their bikes, but like you say we could do that as a special endurance race bike package.... Either that, or alter the bike fuel usage rates?
Depending on tyre tests, we may also need to alter the tyre wear and heat rates too, as we may find that tyres overheat as well as wear too quick over 50+ laps?
Hawk.
Biggest problem doing 50+ laps would be finger pump! ;D
Quote from: Hawk UK on July 09, 2015, 07:08:46 AM
Quote from: matty0l215 on July 09, 2015, 06:43:33 AM
Quote from: Napalm Nick on July 08, 2015, 10:18:01 PM
We need a study into fuel capacity lol. Remember Spa? The GP250 couldn't hold enough for the original intended laps.
Having said that it could of if you tweaked the Drivetrain/gear ratios to extend fuel/lap (which it does for definite, because I specifically checked).
Next Track-race maybe we can look at the fuel useage/per lap (MaxHud) and work a race length close to full consumption which will then mean looking at tyre wear and choice. It will be interesting and perhaps ground not yet chartered? 8)
Late edit: Thanks Bob much appreciated ;)
Could we not just adjust the fuel level of thw bikes (beta club 500 GP!)
+1 Matty
This is a good idea, but we would need permissions from the bike authors to alter the fuel capacity of their bikes, but like you say we could do that as a special endurance race bike package.... Either that, or alter the bike fuel usage rates?
Depending on tyre tests, we may also need to alter the tyre wear and heat rates too, as we may find that tyres overheat as well as wear too quick over 50+ laps?
Hawk.
Oh obviously we would need permisions from the autor :)
As for the tyres, hards on the 500s already seen to last a good while (maybe not 50 laps of indy ;) )
QuoteFinger pump
lol ;)
All good stuff said above.
I don't think any of the bikes fuel capacities need changing permanently - it would be more important to keep them realistic. But just a few bikes modded and released as 'endurance versions' for the event would do, even if they are disposable after a race. Can't see anyone minding that?
Ah for tyre changes and refuelling in the pits (like WRS does) what options that would open......hmm and rider changes would be great ..... oh oh the Hopes and dreams list is coming out again. :D
Quote from: Napalm Nick on July 09, 2015, 09:04:39 AM
QuoteFinger pump
lol ;)
All good stuff said above.
I don't think any of the bikes fuel capacities need changing permanently - it would be more important to keep them realistic. But just a few bikes modded and released as 'endurance versions' for the event would do, even if they are disposable after a race. Can't see anyone minding that?
Ah for tyre changes and refuelling in the pits (like WRS does) what options that would open......hmm and rider changes would be great ..... oh oh the Hopes and dreams list is coming out again. :D
So we want tyre changes, refueling, rider changes and maybe even bike changes (changing weather conditions ;) ;) )
Rider changes! :o
Are we talking about 24hour races too then?? Personally I think riders will have problems riding for 1+ hours never mind 24 hours even with a rider change. Hehe ;D
Hawk.
Quote from: Hawk UK on July 09, 2015, 12:45:13 PM
Rider changes! :o
Are we talking about 24hour races too then?? Personally I think riders will have problems riding for 1+ hours never mind 24 hours even with a rider change. Hehe ;D
Hawk.
Woah there! :o who said about 24 hours ;)
I dont think i've ever got 24 hours of my own time :P
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on July 08, 2015, 10:13:08 PM
id like some proper gp races too on the 500s or 1000s .. craving some more road racing after Hengelo though! great event that was ;D ;D maybe go again with dynamic surface sometime..
Yes, it's been a long time since there was a GP1000/800
/500 race.
Quote from: matty0l215 on July 09, 2015, 01:16:48 PM
Quote from: Hawk UK on July 09, 2015, 12:45:13 PM
Rider changes! :o
Are we talking about 24hour races too then?? Personally I think riders will have problems riding for 1+ hours never mind 24 hours even with a rider change. Hehe ;D
Hawk.
Woah there! :o who said about 24 hours ;)
I dont think i've ever got 24 hours of my own time :P
Just presuming if rider changes are being asked for that the 24 hour
type endurance races were in mind? Otherwise what's the point in having rider changes? Surely not for normal lap count races? Lol :P ;D
Hawk.
Lol - add a night selection to go with sunny/cloudy and rainy and we are there!
OK well our first race was a 500cc race to be fair but no reason we can't do one of these soon. I will add it to the suggestions list (http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=2282.msg32032#msg32032) which I am trying to work through hold yer horses! ;D
Quote from: vin97 on July 09, 2015, 01:27:04 PM
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on July 08, 2015, 10:13:08 PM
id like some proper gp races too on the 500s or 1000s .. craving some more road racing after Hengelo though! great event that was ;D ;D maybe go again with dynamic surface sometime..
Yes, it's been a long time since there was a GP1000/800/500 race.
I agree with Bob.... Let's have more GP circuit type races..... Real road races are okay now and again, but seems the club is going weird with wanting supermoto and scooter events. Are we becoming a bunch of puffter MODS or what!? Hehe! ;D ;D
Hawk.
Variety is zee spice of life.
I try to keep you spicy. ;)
Woah there! :o who said about 24 hours ;)
I dont think i've ever got 24 hours of my own time :P
[/quote]
Just presuming if rider changes are being asked for that the 24 hour type endurance races were in mind? Otherwise what's the point in having rider changes? Surely not for normal lap count races? Lol :P ;D
Hawk.
[/quote]
Three words - offroad scooter endurance! Look it up its a real laugh ;D
Quote from: matty0l215 on July 09, 2015, 08:15:17 PM
Quote from: Hawk UK on July 09, 2015, 01:27:37 PM
Quote from: matty0l215 on July 09, 2015, 01:16:48 PM
Quote from: Hawk UK on July 09, 2015, 12:45:13 PM
Rider changes! :o
Are we talking about 24hour races too then?? Personally I think riders will have problems riding for 1+ hours never mind 24 hours even with a rider change. Hehe ;D
Hawk.
Woah there! :o who said about 24 hours ;)
I dont think i've ever got 24 hours of my own time :P
Just presuming if rider changes are being asked for that the 24 hour type endurance races were in mind? Otherwise what's the point in having rider changes? Surely not for normal lap count races? Lol :P ;D
Hawk.
Three words - offroad scooter endurance! Look it up its a real laugh ;D
You cannot be serious!! I had to cover-up big time tonight to ride that scooter! I'll have a contract out on me if I ride scooters again!! Hehe ;D ;D
Hawk.
Quote from: Hawk UK on July 09, 2015, 09:23:45 PM
Quote from: matty0l215 on July 09, 2015, 08:15:17 PM
Quote from: Hawk UK on July 09, 2015, 01:27:37 PM
Quote from: matty0l215 on July 09, 2015, 01:16:48 PM
Quote from: Hawk UK on July 09, 2015, 12:45:13 PM
Rider changes! :o
Are we talking about 24hour races too then?? Personally I think riders will have problems riding for 1+ hours never mind 24 hours even with a rider change. Hehe ;D
Hawk.
Woah there! :o who said about 24 hours ;)
I dont think i've ever got 24 hours of my own time :P
Just presuming if rider changes are being asked for that the 24 hour type endurance races were in mind? Otherwise what's the point in having rider changes? Surely not for normal lap count races? Lol :P ;D
Hawk.
Three words - offroad scooter endurance! Look it up its a real laugh ;D
You cannot be serious!! I had to cover-up big time tonight to ride that scooter! I'll have a contract out on me if I ride scooters again!! Hehe ;D ;D
Hawk.
Me and my dad saw it at the BMF in Peterborough a couple of years ago, it was a moshpit of scooters going round a dirt oval with two shikans! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0MujCCQnRk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0MujCCQnRk))
& http://niftyfiftyendurance.com/about-the-event/ (http://niftyfiftyendurance.com/about-the-event/)
4 laps fast..
(http://i59.tinypic.com/23w93b.jpg)
4 laps slow..
(http://i61.tinypic.com/15s7ae0.jpg)
so.... hmmmm?
id say the answer is yes.. but, need to try with more laps.
The comparative degree on the circuit of HENGELO is not good because we make brakings and accelerations in a straight line.
I made a try(essay) in RSV4 SBK in tires qualif with 2 liters of gasoline and there is a difference when we run(drive) has the economy or aggressive and there is a difference on the consumption also.
Soft conduct
Consumption : 0.64
(http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/472187testpneus064.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=472187testpneus064.jpg)
Aggressive conduct
Consumption : 0.74
(http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/829550testpneus072.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=829550testpneus072.jpg)
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on July 10, 2015, 05:23:41 PM
id say the answer is yes.. but, need to try with more laps.
Thanks BoB great stuff there is definitely a difference there. 6 laps pretty much decimates the softs all good info to feed in.
Quote from: yan24 on July 10, 2015, 08:16:28 PM
I made a try(essay) in RSV4 SBK in tires qualif with 2 liters of gasoline and there is a difference when we run(drive) has the economy or aggressive and there is a difference on the consumption also.
Thanks also Yan really good stuff showing again that style can help tyres and also fuel consumption is affected.
This is exactly the results we were hoping for to allow some tactical/endurance type races.
Hawk has also done some testing for a little project we do and has some good results too so many thanks to many people! 8)