Not sure this has been submitted as a "bug" even though it has been discussed elsewhere on the forum.
But after tonight's race and the discussions there, I said I would submit it here:
Edited text based on thread discussion
Problem:
After a crash the probability of further crashes increases greatly.
Effect:
Many ruined/not fun races.
Possible Cause:
It seems to be tyre temperature related - during the crash/slide tyre temp increases too much causing further slides/crashes to compound the problem. But there may also be another reason.Tyre returning to a 'normal' temperature is too slow.
A burn-out proves this as a few seconds burn-out will make tyre have 0 grip for ages afterwards
Possible Fix:
Reset tyre temperature to optimum or tyre-warmer temperature when bike is reset to track / Don't allow tyres to overheat during crash / Don't crash(! not possible until physics improved) / Other reason Change tyres so return to 'normal' temperature is faster
Temporary notice to riders:
After a crash, ride slower until temperatures come down it seems to help
Thank you. As always we are happy to assist with any testing that might be needed, to assist this, or any, fix.
Quote from: Napalm Nick on August 13, 2015, 08:56:27 PM
Not sure this has been submitted as a "bug" even though it has been discussed elsewhere on the forum.
But after tonight's race and the discussions there, I said I would submit it here:
Problem:
After a crash the probability of further crashes increases greatly.
Effect:
Many ruined/not fun races.
Possible Cause:
It seems to be tyre temperature related - during the crash/slide tyre temp increases too much causing further slides/crashes to compound the problem. But there may also be another reason.
Possible Fix:
Reset tyre temperature to optimum or tyre-warmer temperature when bike is reset to track / Don't allow tyres to overheat during crash / Don't crash(! not possible until physics improved) / Other reason
Temporary notice to riders:
After a crash, ride slower until temperatures come down it seems to help
Thank you. As always we are happy to assist with any testing that might be needed, to assist this, or any, fix.
Piboso I hope you read this... ::)
Which bikes were you using ? GP800 ?
It's already known but in my experience, it happens mostly (if not only) with mod bikes (I recall having told oDi about it a few times). Don't know why though.
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on August 13, 2015, 09:13:46 PM
Which bikes were you using ? GP800 ?
It's already known but in my experience, it happens mostly (if not only) with mod bikes (I recall having told oDi about it a few times). Don't know why though.
MaX.
It was a race with only the default marusama RC 990 on server/track. ;)
Hawk
Ouch then.
MaX.
And the track was Victoria. ::)
Probably related to the same bug (has to be a bug ???) where after a burnout you have no chance of moving forward.. Tyre spins like its on ice..
Quote from: Napalm Nick on August 13, 2015, 08:56:27 PM
Not sure this has been submitted as a "bug" even though it has been discussed elsewhere on the forum.
But after tonight's race and the discussions there, I said I would submit it here:
Problem:
After a crash the probability of further crashes increases greatly.
Effect:
Many ruined/not fun races.
Possible Cause:
It seems to be tyre temperature related - during the crash/slide tyre temp increases too much causing further slides/crashes to compound the problem. But there may also be another reason.
Possible Fix:
Reset tyre temperature to optimum or tyre-warmer temperature when bike is reset to track / Don't allow tyres to overheat during crash / Don't crash(! not possible until physics improved) / Other reason
Temporary notice to riders:
After a crash, ride slower until temperatures come down it seems to help
Thank you. As always we are happy to assist with any testing that might be needed, to assist this, or any, fix.
I wonder if the tyre temp model is very simple and the localized temperature increase is applied to the whole tyre rather than averaged into the whole mass.
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on August 13, 2015, 10:03:57 PM
Probably related to the same bug (has to be a bug ???) where after a burnout you have no chance of moving forward.. Tyre spins like its on ice..
i'm happy to hear this is a general issue, and not some problem on my side - i was considering making a bug report for this, when i could find no problems with my controller, but the bike simply won't ride after a burnout. hope it can be addressed 8)
Quote from: h106frp on August 13, 2015, 10:11:18 PM
I wonder if the tyre temp model is very simple and the localized temperature increase is applied to the whole tyre rather than averaged into the whole mass.
If we had the tyre temp in the telemetry (*) I could probably have a look.
From the outside, the model seems to cover the main areas (3 tyre zones left/middle/right, with their own temp, temp evolution dictated by environment and how you use the tyre).
If I recall correctly, the dependency between the tyre "grip" and the tyre temperature (delta with respect the optimal temperature) is just linear: maybe that's a bit too simple and gives silly values when the tyre is extremely cold or extremely hot (a simple non-linear function could fix that, or even cap the linear dependency to some min and max values).
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on August 13, 2015, 10:03:57 PM
Probably related to the same bug (has to be a bug ???) where after a burnout you have no chance of moving forward.. Tyre spins like its on ice..
Could be explained by what I said above. But once you're on a slippy tyre, the time it takes to go back to normal looks OK or is it way off ?
MaX.
(*)
Just another example of annoying omission requested like 2 years ago, 5min development job, and ignored up to now.
During tests, bikes can definitely have temp sensors for tyres ... so if the argument "the community wants it" is not enough, the "make it as close to reality as possible" could kick in.
I wouldn't mind if the tyre temp was not available during quali and races. BTW, I think the tyre temp is available (on screen) when physics debug is on.
Quote from: HornetMaX on August 14, 2015, 07:13:07 AM
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on August 13, 2015, 10:03:57 PM
Probably related to the same bug (has to be a bug ???) where after a burnout you have no chance of moving forward.. Tyre spins like its on ice..
Could be explained by what I said above. But once you're on a slippy tyre, the time it takes to go back to normal looks OK or is it way off ?
MaX.
No idea.. to me, how the tyre's react to overheating in GPB is a bit too extreme and sudden.. be nice if we could feel the tyres gradually loosing grip.. so its difficult to say how long it takes for the temp's to come down because the tyre's shouldn't really get to the point of 0 grip as it does in GPB.
1 simple donut overheats the tyre so much that it will prevent you from leaving.
It can take a very longtime before the tyre cools down.
Most of the times the tyre keeps spinning as well (possible through the no grip issue)
https://youtube.be/v/thUoIkG4zVA
Hmm I cant see that video it is "Private". Dread to think what it might be but hoping it explains our problem well ;)
Quote from: Napalm Nick on August 14, 2015, 11:54:58 AM
Hmm I cant see that video it is "Private". Dread to think what it might be but hoping it explains our problem well ;)
mhh.. press publish Obi Wan says too pete....I did mhhhh
Hey Peter that video shows the problem PERFECTLY - glad you got the temperature in too.
Nice job! Thanks.
i can replicate PeterV's problem easily - brand new, fresh tyres, one simple burnout, and the tyre is totally useless - you can sit in one spot and shift all the way into sixth gear, without the bike being able to move forward at all. :o
so it's actually quite a serious 'bug', this, then - i sincerely hope PiBoSo will do something about this - certainly it's not realistic, at all.
a very important bug report, imho. ;)
Can you determine how long it takes for the tyre to cool down for use again? This would be very useful :)
in my tests, Brno track, better part of two laps before any decent grip returned. two VERY slow laps, that is - around 3 minutes - best i could do with the non-existent grip.
and that was after a burnout of 2 donut revolutions, around 20 seconds in total ... :-X
i think it best if a few of us test this, so we can get some comprehensive stats for PiBoSO to see.
should we choose same bike/tracks, or different? my thoughts are it might be best to keep it to the default bikes and Vic track for now...?
220+C seems quite high indeed :)
So potentially we have 3 entangled issues:
- tyre becomes too hot when sliding
- when hot, tyre grip is too low
- tyre does not cool off quickly enough
Maybe solving #1 will make #2 disappear (or vice versa). Or maybe solving #3 will make #1 disappear.
That said if we hadn't the problem of the tyre overheating after a fall, then it wouldn't be a big issue. Just don't do burnouts :)
Not sure Piboso needs any help to tackle all this, so I wouldn't spend time in some extensive testing.
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on August 14, 2015, 02:17:59 PM
... Just don't do burnouts :)
indeed, lol, the best option - better to leave the burnouts for after the race, as in real life. i think. 8)
It would be something just to know he read this. :-\
A little communication goes a long way.
Quote from: Napalm Nick on August 14, 2015, 02:26:41 PM
It would be something just to know he read this. :-\
A little communication goes a long way.
Maybe Piboso is actually a woman and thinks as men we should already know that he/she reads our posts. ;D :P :-X
I'm in trouble now! Hehe ;D
Hawk.
Now you have put that thought into my head it is not easy to shake Hawker. ???
The lack of discussion of boobs is also a pointer :-[
Back on topic I wouldn't like us to get hung up on the temperature being the cause of the OP. Whilst there is definitely a problem here with tyre temps, testing in the rain suggests there might be more than just temperature as the cause. To quantify that, after a fall in the wet the bike also seems more prone to further falls, but the temperature does not seem to go to excess after a crash.
Could it be that as well as the temperature needing to be reset when a respawn occurs, other physics also need resetting?
I would like to suggest what those other physics might be but haven't any idea just now. ::)
Quote from: Napalm Nick on August 14, 2015, 05:00:48 PM
Could it be that as well as the temperature needing to be reset when a respawn occurs, other physics also need resetting?
But we don't need temperature reset after a fall, that would be an ugly solution. And we hate ugly solutions, no ?
MaX.
Then we need bike damage system.if you crash example full speed you have to start from the pits.but of course physics needs big improvements especially gp1000(tcs,antiw)which have too much power or grip or something it goes crazy when you slam the throttle.i hope piboso make this title number one again because there is no another GP motorcycle simulator and there is plenty kart and car games. yes we need damage system and rider control when he is off the bike like sbk2001.
Quote from: HornetMaX on August 14, 2015, 05:52:00 PM
Quote from: Napalm Nick on August 14, 2015, 05:00:48 PM
Could it be that as well as the temperature needing to be reset when a respawn occurs, other physics also need resetting?
But we don't need temperature reset after a fall, that would be an ugly solution. And we hate ugly solutions, no ?
MaX.
Oh yes we don't want an ugly solution for sure or anything which is not so realistic either. I think over-heating is not something to remove (makes us fiddle with settings more) but overheating/excessive heating during a crash, and subsequent return to normal temperature once the heating phenomenon has passed, should be quicker.
Quote from: Napalm Nick on August 14, 2015, 06:14:47 PM
Oh yes we don't want an ugly solution for sure or anything which is not so realistic either. I think over-heating is not something to remove (makes us fiddle with settings more) but overheating/excessive heating during a crash, and subsequent return to normal temperature once the heating phenomenon has passed, should be quicker.
When you go off track into grass/zand or other off track scenery you will pick up dirt and any other debri.
When this happens you see it stuck to the tyre and you will also have less grip at that moment.
After a while driving on the track this will disappear and youre grip gets back too normal, the timeline in which
this happens seems to be good. Its certainly way shorter then an exaggerated overheated back tyre like it is now.
Agree - timeline to lose the pick-up is good.
@_aGy_ : "Slam the throttle"!??? :o You shouldn't be able to slam the throttle on a motoGP1000 bike without consequences, should you?
OH!!! I forgot! Those damn electronics allow modern riders to do that sort of thing these days without falling off - Silly me!. Lol :P ;D
Hawk.
Quote from: Hawk UK on August 14, 2015, 06:26:05 PM
@_aGy_ : "Slam the throttle"!??? :o You shouldn't be able to slam the throttle on a motoGP1000 bike without consequences, should you?
OH!!! I forgot! Those damn electronics allow modern riders to do that sort of thing these days without falling off - Silly me!. Lol :P ;D
Hawk.
yes yes damn electronics..but this is simulation so i think that it need really big improvements.its almost unplayeble for me because its not like the bike behaves.I THINK.but if it does real motogp riders are machines.of course i watch all motogp races and i can see tcs is not accurate.
Quote from: Hawk UK on August 14, 2015, 06:26:05 PM
@_aGy_ : "Slam the throttle"!??? :o You shouldn't be able to slam the throttle on a motoGP1000 bike without consequences, should you?
OH!!! I forgot! Those damn electronics allow modern riders to do that sort of thing these days without falling off - Silly me!. Lol :P ;D
Hawk.
Go away smelly 2 stroke lover :P
but even with full electronics, slamming the throttle on a moto gp of any age would probably cause it to crash. (unless you're rossi, marquez, lorenzo, pedrosa, stacey, or Yan)
hahahahahahaha! Stacey and Yan lol. ;D
Same tyre overheating bug seen again tonight - this time Triumph SSP - two falls and un-rideable (and don't give me any of that "well it would probably be un-rideable anyway after two falls" malarkey! :D
Look yan race2 edmonton... is amazing, after a little crash in every corner fell... and he is probably the best rider on gp bikes now :-\
This bug is very big! Piboso read pls!!! :'(
Quote from: matty0l215 on August 15, 2015, 08:18:05 AM
Quote from: Hawk UK on August 14, 2015, 06:26:05 PM
@_aGy_ : "Slam the throttle"!??? :o You shouldn't be able to slam the throttle on a motoGP1000 bike without consequences, should you?
OH!!! I forgot! Those damn electronics allow modern riders to do that sort of thing these days without falling off - Silly me!. Lol :P ;D
Hawk.
Go away smelly 2 stroke lover :P
but even with full electronics, slamming the throttle on a moto gp of any age would probably cause it to crash. (unless you're rossi, marquez, lorenzo, pedrosa, stacey, or Yan)
yes you can.
Quote from: matty0l215 on August 15, 2015, 08:18:05 AM
Quote from: Hawk UK on August 14, 2015, 06:26:05 PM
@_aGy_ : "Slam the throttle"!??? :o You shouldn't be able to slam the throttle on a motoGP1000 bike without consequences, should you?
OH!!! I forgot! Those damn electronics allow modern riders to do that sort of thing these days without falling off - Silly me!. Lol :P ;D
Hawk.
Go away smelly 2 stroke lover :P
but even with full electronics, slamming the throttle on a moto gp of any age would probably cause it to crash. (unless you're rossi, marquez, lorenzo, pedrosa, stacey, or Yan)
and if the MotoGP bike really behaved this way no one would remain alive. not even marquez who is the best. i mean tcs have no glide its just on or off.!ti ti ti ti tiiiii tiiit ititiiit tiiiiiiii sounds like this
Quote from: -aGy- on September 28, 2015, 02:01:33 AM
Quote from: matty0l215 on August 15, 2015, 08:18:05 AM
Quote from: Hawk UK on August 14, 2015, 06:26:05 PM
@_aGy_ : "Slam the throttle"!??? :o You shouldn't be able to slam the throttle on a motoGP1000 bike without consequences, should you?
OH!!! I forgot! Those damn electronics allow modern riders to do that sort of thing these days without falling off - Silly me!. Lol :P ;D
Hawk.
Go away smelly 2 stroke lover :P
but even with full electronics, slamming the throttle on a moto gp of any age would probably cause it to crash. (unless you're rossi, marquez, lorenzo, pedrosa, stacey, or Yan)
and if the MotoGP bike really behaved this way no one would remain alive. not even marquez who is the best. i mean tcs have no glide its just on or off.!ti ti ti ti tiiiii tiiit ititiiit tiiiiiiii sounds like this
No man ever won a race by slamming the throttle on
alone... It would generally cause more issues than progress.
ok
You can get to full throttle alot faster on a gp bike than other bikes.. The bike knows where it is on the track and gives you the right amount of power needed at each corner (something like that ???) so you can go full throttle without full power.. Can go wrong like it shows with pedrosa in ''hitting the apex'' ;)
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on September 28, 2015, 10:20:34 AM
You can get to full throttle alot faster on a gp bike than other bikes.. The bike knows where it is on the track and gives you the right amount of power needed at each corner (something like that ???) so you can go full throttle without full power.. Can go wrong like it shows with pedrosa in ''hitting the apex'' ;)
God help modern riders if they got onto a classic GP bike! All except Rossi of course because he'd be the only rider with any experience riding one of those beasts. Hehe ;D
Sorry I couldn't resist having a dig at the modern MotoGP era after reading that Bob. I'll shut up now. Lol. ;D :P
Hawk.
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on September 28, 2015, 10:20:34 AM
You can get to full throttle alot faster on a gp bike than other bikes.. The bike knows where it is on the track and gives you the right amount of power needed at each corner (something like that ???) so you can go full throttle without full power.. Can go wrong like it shows with pedrosa in ''hitting the apex'' ;)
So sort of traction control... :P
But still if full power was available and put down at any point. The bikes would f off without the rider
lol probably ;D no doubt gp riders can handle the power though.. the difference is knowing what will happen when you open the throttle..
I know some work was done for beta 8 on the tyres/temperature relationship.
This problem still exists Beta 8 so a gentle bump after finding it shows its head really bad in the wet.
Fall in the wet, restart temperatures - unrideable :(
(http://i63.tinypic.com/2nbccap.jpg)
Dont know if its related but.....try the MotoGP Ducati thats available for testing
and use hard tyres in the rain or any other compound, except the wets.
See if you can leave a pits area. i could not. (with wet tyres i could)
*maybe its a mod thing i dont know, maybe Manu can confirm this.
Quote from: PeterV on February 26, 2016, 04:18:48 PM
Dont know if its related but.....try the MotoGP Ducati thats availablel for testing
and use hard tyres in the rain or any other compound, except the wets.
See if you canleave a pits area. i could not. (with wet tyres i could)
This used to happen with the stock bikes (e.g. Murasama) too... is that no longer the case?