Hello folks,
I've just noticed an interesting thing which is quite unrealistic if we'r talking about racing simulation.
It's the lean agle limit which is present in the game logic and prevent you from leaning to the angle exceeding the grip with the surface. So, while you can lose your bike while accelerating or braking, it's absolutely impossible to do it in the middle of the corner as game's physics just won't let you lean as far as you want. As an example i'm showing you 2 sceenshots with the identical maximum steering input (I use 100% direct lean) in dry and wet conditions.
(http://s018.radikal.ru/i516/1611/af/2fe68240e5c6.png)
(http://s02.radikal.ru/i175/1611/c5/4b80df04f3ef.png)
So I just wanted to ask if there is a way to disable this limiter, letting me conrol my lean without any artificial limitations. (without activating direct steering which is not really usable at race pace).
Thank you.
you answered your own question.
absolute lean angle input would of course be possible to implement in theory but i can almost guarantee you that you would find it to be even harder to use than direct steer (which is the only actually realistic way of playing the game). the problem is that you don't get feedback from the front tyre (unless you have a very sophisticated handlebar controller that does not seem to exist yet), so you would just go blindly into every corner, guessing where the limit is.
Very nicely put Vin, agree with everything.
@Fightone: The only way would be to change the way the virtual rider reacts. But that would be totally out of control. You just have to live with the fact, that with the current means of controllers for bikes (or lack thereof) the best compromise between realism and playability is the way everything is handled at the moment by GPB. It is not GPB's fault if there are no good controllers to allow for absolute real-life riding. The normal play mode with virtual rider is a compromise. But it is one which Piboso had to make, otherwise he would probably have 2-3 guys that would buy his sim until realistic controllers are available.
And the great thing is, that GPB does really allow for the all-out realistic mode with direct steer. So if you strive for absolute realism then enable direct steer and built a realistic controller with realistic feedback. If you manage that, you can probably make a fortune by selling them ;)
Quote from: vin97 on November 23, 2016, 05:38:35 AM
you answered your own question.
absolute lean angle input would of course be possible to implement in theory but i can almost guarantee you that you would find it to be even harder to use than direct steer (which is the only actually realistic way of playing the game). the problem is that you don't get feedback from the front tyre (unless you have a very sophisticated handlebar controller that does not seem to exist yet), so you would just go blindly into every corner, guessing where the limit is.
I'm not agree, absolutely the same way I don't feel my front wheel while braking, but I'm still able to control the enrty on braking (which is not limited like lean angle and my front wheel can easily wash out if I overuse the front brake) without much problem (yes, it's not like on the real bike but you can get used to it). So I don't see any harm here for mass players if if we just have a chackbox disabling this angle limiter.
Quote from: vin97 on November 23, 2016, 05:38:35 AM
absolute lean angle input would of course be possible to implement in theory but i can almost guarantee you that you would find it to be even harder to use than direct steer
Have to disagree here: in direct steer you have the very same problem (i.e. you have to manage the max lean by yourself) plus others (your input is the steering angle or torque), so direct steer is more difficult.
I'm not sure that removing the max lean angle computation will give something playable for any player, but to me it's definitely worth a try.
With what we have today, let's imagine you're leaning 50deg, dry track, your stick fully left. Now the track has a wet section: you don't move your stick, but the virtual rider will pick the bike up for you ... I can see why this is done, but I can see plenty of way for this to cause troubles.
On top, it shouldn't be too difficult to implement (even having a fixed max angle, corresponding to the stick fully left/right, would do).
Quote from: HornetMaX on November 23, 2016, 07:44:03 AM
Quote from: vin97 on November 23, 2016, 05:38:35 AM
absolute lean angle input would of course be possible to implement in theory but i can almost guarantee you that you would find it to be even harder to use than direct steer
Have to disagree here: in direct steer you have the very same problem (i.e. you have to manage the max lean by yourself) plus others (your input is the steering angle or torque), so direct steer is more difficult.
Ofc you have to control the max lean yourself in DST, but you also have to do that irl. What Vin and I are referring to is, that it does not matter whether it is DST or a mode proposed by Fightone - you would almost certainly need a controller/feedback system that would allow the rider to 'feel' what the front wheel is doing and some sort of sensation of the torques and forces that are working on the front wheel. Otherwise it is just a guessing game.
I have tried DST for quite some time with a normal gamepad controller and I just find it very unrealistic with such a controller. First off, it is hard quite to get the countersteering in your head with that. But irl, if you ride a bike it just comes natural. In fact many even don't know that they do counter-steer to initiate the cornering/leaning. It is possible to get it in one's head after some time ('conditioning'), but it just never gets the intuitive feeling it has irl. One would have to do the same movements as irl and feel similar forces (g-forces will probably never be simulated) to make it really happen to ride similar to real life and competitively in GPB.
Same thing might be true for the way Fightone proposes. You would maybe be able to condition yourself thru trial and error to get yourself to ride clean laps even without a good feedback system. But it would probably take a lot of time and it would be only fitting for certain track/bike combination. One would not be reacting to a real forces and sensations, but would just follow a certain protocol memorized in the brain.
The virtual rider is a needed form of mediator which kind of compensates for the lack of feedback with a normal controller.
Quote from: HornetMaX on November 23, 2016, 07:44:03 AM
I'm not sure that removing the max lean angle computation will give something playable for any player, but to me it's definitely worth a try.
I agree with that, it should be worth a try whether it is playable or not. My guess, as mentioned above, is that it could be used if one really dedicates time to conditioning oneself to where the limit of grip is. But it would never feel intuitive as it should feel.
difference between direct steer and virtual rider with absolute target lean angle would be that you have to keep a constant, very precise input throughout the whole corner.
Quote from: Fightone on November 23, 2016, 07:23:17 AMSo I don't see any harm here for mass players if if we just have a chackbox disabling this angle limiter.
Of course more options are always good but if direct-steer is too hard for you, then absolute lean angle input will be as well and if you really want the hard way, then you might as well chose the realistic way, direct-steer.
Well I never said DST on a pad was easy or better, I just said that the statement "what flightone is requesting would be harder than DST" can't be right.
and i suspect the opposite to be the case because not only do you have to steer the bike into your desired target lean angle for the corner but you have to keep the stick perfectly still at that specific position for the whole corner.
Quote from: vin97 on November 23, 2016, 08:48:08 AM
and i suspect the opposite to be the case because not only do you have to steer the bike into your desired target lean angle for the corner but you have to keep the stick perfectly still at that specific position for the whole corner.
You have the same need in DST and DSA ...
i have only limited experience with direct-steer in GPB (because it was way too hard for me) but when i ride my bike, i apply torque to the handlebars at corner entry and exit but not in the corner/apex itself.
Quote from: vin97 on November 23, 2016, 09:05:15 AM
i have only limited experience with direct-steer in GPB (because it was way too hard for me) but when i ride my bike, i apply torque to the handlebars at corner entry and exit but not in the corner/apex itself.
That depends on the bike geometry, in general a torque must be applied even in steady turning (but it can be small compared to the entry/exit phase of the turn).
I see what you mean with "you have to hold it steady during the turn", I just don't think it's a major problem.
The fact that you'll have to manage by yourself the max angle is the big deal however: as you and Stout said, it won't be easy and it will boil down to muscle memory for each turn, in absence of feedback. But that's exactly what fightone is asking for.
Who knows, maybe removing that part of the virtual rider (the part in charge of computing the max lean angle in each situation) may give a better feeling ... right now it is true that it seems too difficult to lowside.
I agree with Stout and Vins opinion on this, but it would certainly be good to have an option checkbox to disable the VR target lean but still lean as normal via the controller instead of as it is in DST were your having to re-train your brain to move your controller left to lean right(that is really hard to do and takes much time and dedication). But yeah that would be an interesting option to have in GPB. :)
Hawk.
As it would be sort of experimental, even if it was activated only with .ini files (like DST/DSA) it would be good enough.
BTW, it had already been requested in the past, I clearly remember the discussion (going as far as asking a "tunable" max, so that you could set if your stick fully right means 65deg or 45deg).
I'd like to throw my 2 cents again.
Regarding "if you want realism - use DST" - no my dear friends, I will not, because DST is actually nowhere close to being realistic. It maybe simulates steering physics but nowhere close simulates real feel and approach in riding a bike. I ride a sportbike in real life so I can tell you that it's incredibliy stable while running in a turn and very simple and natural in control. + you have to put a decent amount of force to countersteer it into the corner. "Superdifficult" DST just doesn't let you to concentrate on riding the bike and showing good laptimes instead of concentrating on "not falling".
Direct lean with regualar steering is actually much closer to the real feel.
The only thing that doesn't let me attack in the turn and play with the limit (what's the most enjoyable) - is that lean angle limit which doesn't let me play on the edge of the grip so I always feel like I have 2 small safety wheels on the sides of my bicycle :) I feel that I have some grip left but can't lean further to use it.
Regarding "you will have to control lean angle precisely during the turn" - yes, that's what attacking in a corner is all about, those who try to lay down pretty decent laptimes are already doing this precise control on entry and exit so I don't see why we can't do the same in the middle. It won't emalate direct input you do on a real bike (it's either way impossible) but it will emulate the bike going around corner about the same way like it does in real life, what's more valuable experience that can be obtained from the simulator.
"BTW, it had already been requested in the past, I clearly remember the discussion (going as far as asking a "tunable" max, so that you could set if your stick fully right means 65deg or 45deg)." - cool, what was the outcome?:)
Quote from: Fightone on November 23, 2016, 03:56:15 PM
"Superdifficult" DST just doesn't let you to concentrate on riding the bike and showing good laptimes instead of concentrating on "not falling".
I agree with that part, that's why I wrote this...
Quote from: Stout Johnson on November 23, 2016, 08:35:04 AM
I have tried DST for quite some time with a normal gamepad controller and I just find it very unrealistic with such a controller. First off, it is hard quite to get the countersteering in your head with that. But irl, if you ride a bike it just comes natural. In fact many even don't know that they do counter-steer to initiate the cornering/leaning. It is possible to get it in one's head after some time ('conditioning'), but it just never gets the intuitive feeling it has irl.
Quote from: Fightone on November 23, 2016, 03:56:15 PM
Regarding "if you want realism - use DST" - no my dear friends, I will not, because DST is actually nowhere close to being realistic. It maybe simulates steering physics but nowhere close simulates real feel and approach in riding a bike.
That is a misperception on your part. DST is very realistic, it simulates the way a bike is being handled irl. BUT it is
designed to be used with an advanced steering/force feedback unit that is yet to be designed for public use. So what you are missing is the feedback of forces to have a realistic feeling. Of course it feels unnatural with a gamepad in your hand. ;) But that does not make direct steer unrealistic.
But again, I would also be in favor of trying your suggestion. But my bet is, that it would also not be satisfying.
And btw, you are not the only one around here, that is riding a sports bike irl ;)
Quote from: Fightone on November 23, 2016, 03:56:15 PM
"BTW, it had already been requested in the past, I clearly remember the discussion (going as far as asking a "tunable" max, so that you could set if your stick fully right means 65deg or 45deg)." - cool, what was the outcome?:)
As it's not yet in, I guess you can figure out the outcome :)
Quote from: Stout Johnson on November 23, 2016, 05:31:23 PM
And btw, you are not the only one around here, that is riding a sports bike irl ;)
ROFL ! 1-0 for Stout :)
Quote from: Stout Johnson on November 23, 2016, 05:31:23 PM
That is a misperception on your part. DST is very realistic, it simulates the way a bike is being handled irl. BUT it is designed to be used with an advanced steering/force feedback unit that is yet to be designed for public use. So what you are missing is the feedback of forces to have a realistic feeling. Of course it feels unnatural with a gamepad in your hand.
- first of all, I play with G27 and force feedback, not a gamepad.
- secondly, I ofc know that DST theoretically is the most precise simulation and I tried it with different steering wheel setups/force feedback and came to the conclusion that it's not really usable at this stage with regular forcefeedback controllers available on market like my steering wheel. And my feeling was that it's not only about controller itself but also about the simulation itself. The aggregative feeling after trying it was that, while real bikes always tend to stand up and stabilize, the GPB bike with DST is always trying to fall after any subtle input, what doesn't really feel realistic. IMHO the game logic lacks some feedback to the controller that would stabilize the bike via contersteering input coming from feedback force so bike would go straight and stable even when hands off, not crashing to the ground. For example that's how it works for car racing simulators, the force feedback plays an important role in generating stabilzing controller input for the car (like IRL) unlike in GPB. But that's just my impression, I admit I may be wrong somewhere.
Quote from: Stout Johnson on November 23, 2016, 05:31:23 PM
And btw, you are not the only one around here, that is riding a sports bike irl ;)
I know, I know :), it was just to emphasize how cool I am, not like you noobs :P Actually I just wanted to shorten the process of proving to everyone that I'm aware what countersteering is like, why DST is supposed to be cool and my suggestion comes not from not knowing about the above features or real bike physics/behaviour :)
Did you try DSA (Direct Steer Angle) ?
Quote from: Fightone on November 23, 2016, 06:26:15 PM
And my feeling was that it's not only about controller itself but also about the simulation itself.
[...]
IMHO the game logic lacks some feedback to the controller that would stabilize the bike via contersteering input coming from feedback force so bike would go straight and stable even when hands off, not crashing to the ground.
If you are talking about the lack of force feedback or wrong feedback, you might be correct I don't know. I have not tried GPB with a steering wheel. But that is different to saying that DST is not realistic, which per se clearly is not the case. If you observe certain things that you find to be unrealistic or that might be improved, Piboso is the last person to not be listening to you. He is especially interested in feedback when it comes to hardcore realism.
So feel free to post your observations here. But please don't just say "I don't like ... because it does not feel right". Please try to make well-founded statements and try to give a reasoning/explanations based on real life physics for your suggestions. Then I am sure Piboso generally would be glad to accept your feedback concerning this.
As a final remark: Don't rush it concerning that matter, because Piboso at the moment thankfully dedicates almost all his time to de-bugging his code. That is no.1 priority at the moment. Also Piboso recently stated that he might not be at full power due to personal problems.
Quote from: Stout Johnson on November 23, 2016, 06:56:22 PM
So feel free to post your observations here. But please don't just say "I don't like ... because it does not feel right". Please try to make well-founded statements and try to give a reasoning/explanations based on real life physics for your suggestions. Then I am sure Piboso generally would be glad to accept your feedback concerning this.
I was saying I don't feel and I don't like, just to let you know why I don't want to use DST at the moment like I was offered to do. I would gladly give accurate feedback, but I tried it pretty long ago so what's left from then is just my aggregative feeling that I already wrote here =) Frankly I was not really willing to give feedback on DST here but to touch this "lean angle limit" thing in the topic.
Quote from: Stout Johnson on November 23, 2016, 06:56:22 PM
As a final remark: Don't rush it concerning that matter, because Piboso at the moment thankfully dedicates almost all his time to de-bugging his code. That is no.1 priority at the moment. Also Piboso recently stated that he might not be at full power due to personal problems.
Sure, I don't rush anyone and have respect to the labour Piboso does, and I'm cool if he does whatever he wants, in a good sense, that was just a pretty easy thing to implement in my mind (to allow "real direct lean") and I decided to share my observation on how to make the game a bit more realistic while using regular controls. That's pretty much it.
P.S. Moreover, to the moment of creating this topic I though that this feature might already be implemented so I was intended just to get info on the question, what I successfully did thanks to everyone :)
Quote from: Fightone on November 23, 2016, 06:26:15 PMAnd my feeling was that it's not only about controller itself but also about the simulation itself. The aggregative feeling after trying it was that, while real bikes always tend to stand up and stabilize, the GPB bike with DST is always trying to fall after any subtle input, what doesn't really feel realistic. IMHO the game logic lacks some feedback to the controller that would stabilize the bike via contersteering input coming from feedback force so bike would go straight and stable even when hands off, not crashing to the ground.
you need an additional axis for direct-steer to work realistically, so you'd have the lean angle as output only and than the steering axis as input with actual force simulation output (resisting your steering input dynamically -> stabilizing the bike) not just a bit of vibration. the game can simulate those forces on the steering axis but there is no controller to take advantage of that.