PiBoSo Official Forum

Disclaimer: I can't ride a motorcycle in real life so some of the descriptions maybe weird. lol

I've been playing GP Bikes daily since I got it about a year ago. I use full manual control, no assist. I'm not the fastest rider, and won't be breaking any speed or lap records but I love playing and racing with everyone. Teaching / Forcing myself to learn to play using manual controls. I decided to try the Direct Steer with Torque feature in GP Bikes. This is Direct Steer, not to be confused with the in game check box for Direct Lean. Which is something completely different. First trying it last last summer, but then I could barely get around with default steering. So I went back to default steering. Two or so months ago, I began looking at it again. After some talks about it on the forum.

As many of your know I am disabled in real life have a bone disease Osteogensis Imperfecta (Brittle Bones), I have Type III of it. Which makes me really small (3 foot 3 inches) in a wheelchair. :) I have always loved simulation games. Since they give me the the opportunity to do things I can't physically do in real life. I like to try and get as close as a I can do doing things that I can't actually do, one of the reasons I full in love with GP Bikes. :D A realistic motorcycle simulation I had been waiting for!

There are two different Direct Steer options in GP Bikes, Direct Steer with Torque and Direct Steer without Torque. These can only be turned on if your set them in your rider Profile.in file. (Located in your Documents\Piboso\GP Bikes\profiles\(User Name). I set up a profile for Default Steering and one for Direct Steering with Torque. Then I don't have to keep going back and changing the Profile.ini.

Piboso Direct Steer Forum Page:
http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=28.0 (http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=28.0)

Direct Steer with Torque:
[hardcore]
directsteer=1
directsteer_maxtorque=45
directsteer_maxtorque2=0.5


Direct Steer Without Torque:
[hardcore]
directsteer=2
directsteer_maxangle=20


With Direct Steer, your virtual rider won't help hold the bike up when you're in a turn. The two different methods for Direct Steering as listed above. I've used both and I found for me personally I like Direct Steer with Torque to be better. Both of them you are responsible for your lean angle. With the Torque version you can use the throttle to help you hold the bike at a lean angle or help you pick up the bike. Without torque applying the throttle does not change or effect lean angle.

When first using Direct Steer either method. The bike will handle much different. Even after over a year of playing and trying to learn Direct Steer it felt like I had never played the simulation before. I was falling over constantly. So I had to "relearn" how the bike will behave. When your spawn in on your bike the handle bars will fall to one side or the other. They won't straighten out until you start moving. This can cause a lot of falling and losing control of the bike. I use manual controls, with manual clutch it took a while to get the bike moving. Unlike Default Steering, Direct Steering your handles bars, you can move when you're doing a wheelie. Also your lean angle can be changed while on one wheel.

Throttle control becomes more important with Direct Steer with Torque, then Default Steering. With Default Steering I can mash down the throttle then let it go completely in a turn. While holding the left stick completely left or right. And not worry to much about falling over. With Direct Steer with Torque it works differently. I had to learn to hold the throttle at different positions to help me keep the bike up. If I am holding to much throttle then I will understeer. To little throttle then I run the risk of falling over. Falling over is extremely easy in Direct Steering with Torque. As I mentioned the virtual rider doesn't help hold the bike. If you turn in on a corner and keep turning there is nothing stopping you from falling over.

Turning is also different then with Default Steering. Default Steering if I want to make a right turn I push my left stick on my controller to the right, and keep pushing it to the right for the duration of the turn. With Direct Steer with Torque it is a different experience. If I want to make a right turn, I will push my left stick to the right to get my lean angle and begin my turn. Then I have push my left stick to the left while in the middle of the turn to hold the bike at my lean angle. You have to opposite steer the bike while in a turn to hold lean angle. While also using the throttle to help keep the bike from falling over. The throttle while slow the bike from falling over, as you also opposite steer the handle bars. And throttle while help you change lean angles from side to side quicker.

The check box for Direct Lean doesn't seem to affect the bike much or at all if you have it on or off.

One thing I noticed is with Direct Steer with Torque my bike was much slower then default steering when leaning left or right. I found if I changed the torque value slightly the response of the bike when changing the lean angle was faster. It also depends on the bike you are using and the power of the engine. The 125cc bike will lean side to side faster then the 1000cc bike. Which I figure has something to do with the weight of the bike.

My Direct Steer with Torque setting:
[hardcore]
directsteer=1
directsteer_maxtorque=45
directsteer_maxtorque2=0.5


I changed it from 30 to 45, the response of leaning the bike was faster. Right now for me 45 seems good, I may try 50-55 again but higher level made it respond to fast and made it harder to control.

I use manual rider movements and I have found that GP Bikes with Direct Steer with Torque the virtual rider will not move if you have Auto rider movements set to left and right. With auto on the rider will not hang off the bike and you can't make the turns very well or at all. To use Direct Steer with Torque you need to at least have Auto Rider movements left and right off, and manually move the rider left or right. To get the rider to hang off the bike.

There is also some animation bugs with Direct Steer with Torque. Your rider doesn't tilt his head when in a turn and looks a little stiff.

With Direct Steer with Torque there is no set limit for lean angle the bike will hit. There has been times I've got the bike down to 59-61 degrees and still was able to stand the bike back up and not crash. This for me is fun knowing I made the turn and was able to come out of it. It's like I set a world record. lol It really does come down to the player to how far they can get the bike lean down with out crashing. Anything over 62 degrees the bike will fall regardless of how well you turn or your throttle control.

I only rider in helmet view so a down side to Direct Lean with Torque is it is very hard to tell my lean angle. It's more me remembering this is what XX degrees looks like when I make a turn. Since there is no visual or audio feedback of my knee hitting the ground. As odd as it sound after a while you do start to "feel" the bike, and can visually tell what the limits are, and use the throttle to help keep you from crashing.

When going slow in hair pin turns. With Direct Steer with Torque I did notice the bike wanted to pick it self up more. Which makes very sharp turns a little easier. Once you start going faster then 40-45 mph this doesn't happen anymore.

As I mentioned earlier you still have control over your handle bars, lean angle when doing a wheelie so this can be tricky. I've also noticed the back end of the bike will kick out easier and more often when you give it throttle. Which can also work to your advantage when going in to a turn if you do it right. Since you can kick the back end out to help you steer in to the turn.

I found the smaller bikes were a little harder to ride since they don't have the power to help you pick the bike up or hold your lean angle.

I have been practicing with twisty tracks so I can learn how to go from one type of turn to another.

For me with Direct Steer with Torque there is a lot more going on. A lot more concentration on my part. I've been able to do just about every type of corner, it's just putting them together in to one lap is the hard part since so much is going on. Using 4 fingers, 2 thumbs, opposite steering, throttle control. Not to mention I stink at setting up a bike. lol The more I practice the more natural it is feeling using Direct Steer with Torque. It's weird when going back to Default Steering it almost feels like I have training wheels on and the bike won't fall down. lol It will be a long time before I can race using this control method. Minus the hundreds of falls over and over. I'm having a lot of fun learning how to use Direct Steer with Torque. :D


Practicing Direct Steer with Torque:
http://www.youtube.com/v/W1MKr13exfc

My Controller Setup: XBox360 Wired Controller.
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5151/13775462185_e01055cbe7_o.jpg)
I have slight deadzone's set for Clutch and Rear Brake so I don't hit them by mistake if I move forward or back when steering.

9-19-14 Update: Changed the DST code to reflect what I am currently using.

Wow. I am impressed that you are giving it a go, it does sound extremely hard!
It most definitely is something that will need a LOT of time and perserverance.
A bit like driving an rc bike without bars, not impossible, but not really raceable.
Good luck anyway!

Very nice post indeed Klax! ;D

This should really help in my quest to become a fully manual rider in GP BIkes(Once the 125cc Redbull Rookies Champs is finished of course. Hehe :P )

Catch ya later Klax, for the Redbull Race tonight.  ;)

Quote from: nuovaic on May 25, 2014, 08:54:48 AM
Wow. I am impressed that you are giving it a go, it does sound extremely hard!
It most definitely is something that will need a LOT of time and perserverance.
A bit like driving an rc bike without bars, not impossible, but not really raceable.
Good luck anyway!

A lot of the Hong Kong RC Motorcycle races don't use bars/wires on the sides of the bikes when racing. :) I'm not from Hong Kong but have watched there races for years.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1Fi9mVcSBCj41GFxyGiBXQ (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1Fi9mVcSBCj41GFxyGiBXQ)

Yes but they are the more stable and slower 1/8 Kyoshos with limited lean, I was really meaning the much faster 1/5, with working lean angles down to 70 degrees.
We once had a 'barless' race at our Skipton track many years ago, the top UK driver managed 9 laps at a steady pace, everyone else crashed out in the first or second lap!

Having tried in the past to use direct steer (maybe 1 hour) I tell you this: truly impressive Klax !

Notice that if you want to be 100% as close to real as possible, you have to invert the force: to turn right, you should have to first move your stick left to initiate the leaning and then to the right to keep the lean at the desired angle. But as I have no doubt that you could do this after a little extra time, feel free to keep your settings, I won't come and say they are "only" 99.99% real.

Concerning RC bikes: not having the bars is hard, but it does not come close to what Klax is doing. If you wanted to "do the same" on an rc bike you should remove the spring/dampers on your steering and also alter the front geometry (RC bikes has a negative front fork offset, giving them a stabilizing "cartwheel" effect that helps them go straight and pick up the bike with throttle).

MaX.

No, there is no direct comparison to be made between any rc bike and GP Bikes. You cannot 'do the same'!
What I was comparing is the lack of lean limiter with an rc bike without bars and Direct steer on GP bikes. Same edgy, difficult feeling, not knowing where the lean limit is and a major sense of achievement getting around a corner without help. That's what I felt in Klax's video.

I tried it at Cleveland for half an hour, couldn't string 2 corners together without crashing. Then played with the torque settings until it felt just manageable. and finally managed a lap, but cornering has to be dead slow and the slow corners feel like your driving on eggshells.
I think Smoothing and deadzone adjustment helps a little, I ended with 100 smooth on both, 20 deadzone 0 linearity.  Max torque 22 maxtorque2 1.2 (joystick)

I'm starting to like Direct Steer w/ Torque better then Default Steer. Something about it, even though putting laps together.

For me with simulations, I think you should have to learn to play them. Not just pick them up and be able to use them after a week.

MaX your telemetry software your working on. Can it show lean angle? Reason is I tried your HUD addon, but I end up paying to much attention to the lean angle graphic. And not enough attention to the actual track. lol. So I keep trying to get lower. So I shut it off, I am still able to get 59-61 lean angle. But it would be helpful being able to look back at the telemetry data.

Quote from: Klax75 on May 25, 2014, 06:35:14 PM
MaX your telemetry software your working on. Can it show lean angle? Reason is I tried your HUD addon, but I end up paying to much attention to the lean angle graphic. And not enough attention to the actual track. lol. So I keep trying to get lower. So I shut it off, I am still able to get 59-61 lean angle. But it would be helpful being able to look back at the telemetry data.

Same for me: every time I try to pay attention to the suspensions in the HUD, I end up crashing cause I lose sight of the track :)

Yes, the telemetry thing (BTW, it's almost ready !!) will allow you to see the evolution of all the bike parameters (the ones GPB exposes), including lean angle.

MaX.

@Max: Great to hear your Telemetry Data Monitor is almost ready.... Will be very useful indeed!  ;D 8)

I just did two consecutive laps around Caldwell Park, using the CBR 600 :) Was pretty fun, first lap was 1:48, second 1:45. Laps are down on default steering, but I know with more practice with DST I can improve this a lot. Since my best lap didn't have my some of my best sector times in it, or the best top speeds.


Two laps around Caldwell Park:
http://www.youtube.com/v/swxeRh8i1tQ

On a side note. I was also practicing with C21's version of the CBR1000's. Oddly I found the physic's easier to use with Direct Steer, then with the default physics. C21's the gyroscopic effects were a lot stronger and the bike wanted to spring up on it's own a lot more especially at low speeds.

Everything considered Klax that's pretty impressive to say the least!

I tried this over the weekend and I was absolutely hopeless.. :D

Interesting thread to read this one.  Thanks for posting all this.

grT

Quote from: girlracerTracey on May 27, 2014, 05:43:22 PM
Everything considered Klax that's pretty impressive to say the least!

I tried this over the weekend and I was absolutely hopeless.. :D

Interesting thread to read this one.  Thanks for posting all this.

grT

Thank you! :)

Great reading!!

Im really interested in trying this out! Looks great in your video's Klax.. Like Max said if you can set the steering input to move the handlebars left initially before a right turn, or tipping into a right turn.. That would simulate counter steering!
Direct steer with torque looks/sounds ridiculously hard to do lol.
Hats off for sticking with it!

Il have to play around with this  :)
I cant comment yet because I havnt tried it but in my head it makes sense to copy the counter steering technique..

It also sounds perfect for a handlebar setup.. Seen a few people using them on youtube.. Not really my thing but with direct steer with torque it could make alot of sense..

Quote from: BOBR6 84 on May 28, 2014, 12:04:23 AM
It also sounds perfect for a handlebar setup.. Seen a few people using them on youtube.. Not really my thing but with direct steer with torque it could make alot of sense..

With a handlebar setup (assuming it has force feedback), the other method (the one Klax calls "Direct Steer without torque") should be better.
In this 2nd method, you dictate the target handlebar angle (not the torque, as in Direct Steer 1st method, nor the bike lean angle, as in the usual control method without direct steer).
Despite it having some "virtual rider" in between (it will translate your target handlebar angle into a torque signal), it should feel more natural and of course it will still allow (actually require) you to countersteer.

Klax is using direct steer on a joypad, so no force fedback.

MaX.

Ok I tried direct steer with and without torque this morning!

Impossible lol!!!

Handling is extreemly hard but what was even harder was having all the controls layed out differently lol I copied your layout Klax!

I might put more time towards it though as I really like the extra elements it brings to the handling! Just need to find a layout to suit me on the pad..

Ps. Even more impressed with your cadwell video now lol

+1 C21's physics..

Thanks everyone. :) Those videos were after hundreds of laps, and countless hours of practicing using various tracks and all the different bikes. :)

I kind of mess up the end of the lap. My time ended up being 4:41 even after the mistakes. Using the Aprilia RSV4.


Practice at BreuquainVille:
http://www.youtube.com/v/97-kyHW_tcc

Really Impressing read.
I've tried it 6 month ago and was Not able to move Out of the pits ;)
I Presume you Rode the Wsbk sc59? I have to Look at the physics to confirm but i have an Idea why the Bike has a bigger gyroscopic effect....

Yep, it was the WSBK version. :)

Quote from: Klax75 on May 27, 2014, 09:05:37 AM
On a side note. I was also practicing with C21's version of the CBR1000's. Oddly I found the physic's easier to use with Direct Steer, then with the default physics. C21's the gyroscopic effects were a lot stronger and the bike wanted to spring up on it's own a lot more especially at low speeds.

Quote from: C21 on May 31, 2014, 06:18:02 AM
I Presume you Rode the Wsbk sc59? I have to Look at the physics to confirm but i have an Idea why the Bike has a bigger gyroscopic effect....

For the gyro effect it should be easy, it's just the inertia of the rotating parts (around their rotating axis).
For the "the bike wanted to spring up on it's own a lot more especially at low speeds", this should come only from the bike geometry, mostly the front.

MaX.

Still practicing. lol Here is a quick video of what kind of lean angles I've been able to get with DST. In slow motion and normal speed. :) I made it out of the turn and didn't crash and picked the bike back up. Trying a torque setting of 55-60 right now.

If it makes sense I am starting to get a visual "feel" for what the lean angles look like when doing them. The rider doesn't tilt his head in the turns with DST so he looks a little odd.


Direct Steer with Torque Lean Angle:
http://www.youtube.com/v/dwD31VgsBk8

Looking good Klax! ;D 8)

I'm going to be so way behind you by the time I get time to get into this kind of practice with DST. Hehe. But after the last Red Bull Rookies race for sure I'll be there.  This is gonna be fun!! ;) ;D

Can there be a warning/grinding sound to tell you that the knee pad is about to touch the tarmac
Or it could spark as a visual warning that might help

Quote from: Klax75 on June 02, 2014, 08:55:03 AM
Still practicing. lol Here is a quick video of what kind of lean angles I've been able to get with DST. In slow motion and normal speed. :) I made it out of the turn and didn't crash and picked the bike back up. Trying a torque setting of 55-60 right now.

If it makes sense I am starting to get a visual "feel" for what the lean angles look like when doing them. The rider doesn't tilt his head in the turns with DST so he looks a little odd.


Direct Steer with Torque Lean Angle:
http://www.youtube.com/v/dwD31VgsBk8

cool!  8)

body/head position looks better to me.. on a fast corner like that anyway

Quote from: Ian on June 02, 2014, 05:37:10 PM
Can there be a warning/grinding sound to tell you that the knee pad is about to touch the tarmac
Or it could spark as a visual warning that might help

Right now there is no sound for the knee hitting the ground. Would be nice. I ride from helmet view so I am doing things visually, at times it does get a little difficult since I am controlling the rider movements separate from the bike movements. I just go by if the bike is at this side of my screen at this angle I know relatively about what the lean angle would be.

There is a sound for bike scraping the ground, on the older version of the R6 before the WSS pack was released if you took a turn really low you would hear it. I saw sparks before but only when watching the replay, since I am helmet view, didn't notice the sparks til later. On the 500cc bikes I hear the scrap more often, then I do on any of the other bikes.

I think the scrap is the fairing on the 500 & 600

My best lap on the NSR at Mosport using DST. It's a 1:39. Video starts after I had crashed, then getting up to speed for the lap. :) This was after a couple hours of practice on the 1000cc and 500cc bike. The track is nice and flowing good to practice DST on.


Honda NSR 500cc at Mosport:
http://www.youtube.com/v/xqeXTHZG8Es

what do you use for manual l/r lean?

You make it look easy lol

Quote from: Alby46 on June 03, 2014, 04:23:44 PM
what do you use for manual l/r lean?

My Controller Setup: XBox360 Wired Controller.
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5151/13775462185_e01055cbe7_o.jpg)
I have slight deadzone's set for Clutch and Rear Brake so I don't hit them by mistake if I move forward or back when steering. I only ride in helmet view so I don't use the change view button much, if at all.

Two laps around Mugello, I turned off Anti-Wheelie and Traction Control to see if it felt different. When I started GP Bikes last summer I never used those, since Anti-Wheelie was on or off with Beta3. There wasn't different strengths off it. Becoming more and more natural, just the smaller bikes are a little harder. The 125cc, and 250cc, not impossible though.

Not the fastest laps. First was a 2:10 and the Second was a 2:12.


DST 2 Laps at Mugello RC213:
http://www.youtube.com/v/WRpiaJN75T8

My on going obsession with learning DST. lol

Here is a me on the NSR 500cc at Nordschleife doing one lap from a standing start. It's not a world record or anything. ;) It is from helmet view and then, shows the same lap from TV Camera view.


DST NSR 500cc at Nordschleife:
http://www.youtube.com/v/szKahubrZcQ

Your getting better and better with this DST...... Riding on auto or even manual rider is one thing, but riding with DST is a total new ball game and I believe requires you to practically learn to ride with GPB all over again from scratch. I totally admire your dedication and perseverance mate.... Amazing job so far!  ;) ;D 8)

Hawk.

Hey Klax,
Well done getting so good with torque steering. Seeing your progress here has inspired me to reinstall GP Bikes and give this a go.

A question to make sure I'm on the right track; you've probably noticed that at high lean angles that the bike starts to want to 'fall in' to the corner. How have you been counteracting this? Reducing the rider lean when the bike is further over? Applying a bit of steering torque to lift the bike up? Any custom setups to minimize the effect?

Cheers,
Si

Quote from: Simeykins on June 16, 2014, 08:15:12 AM
Hey Klax,
Well done getting so good with torque steering. Seeing your progress here has inspired me to reinstall GP Bikes and give this a go.

A question to make sure I'm on the right track; you've probably noticed that at high lean angles that the bike starts to want to 'fall in' to the corner. How have you been counteracting this? Reducing the rider lean when the bike is further over? Applying a bit of steering torque to lift the bike up? Any custom setups to minimize the effect?

Cheers,
Si

Only thing I am using is the throttle, and steering the opposite way with the handle bars to hold the lean again I want.

So a left turn would be, I turn in left get the turn and lean again I need, then I start turning right during the turn to hold the angle. Then even more right to stand the bike back up. Using the throttle to help hold the angle and give it a little more throttle to help pick the bike up. The throttle while also help slow the bike from "falling" when initially starting the turn.

At speeds around 40-45 mph or so the bike will want to stand up a little more on it's own, which is good for hard braking or tight corners.

Also have full manual controls, and full manual rider control for his movements.

Cool, thanks for that Klax.
So basically a lot of practice with throttle and steering control to the point where you can pre-empt it.

I've done some practice, but I think I'm limited by the smoothness of control I can achieve with my el-cheapo imitation playstation controller. I imagine being able to crack the throttle a touch will be very important to maintaining stability of the bike, which I just can't do. Time to fix my steering wheel and pedals.

Cheers,
Si

One big thing is using Manual Rider. I haven't tried auto rider in beta 5, but in Beta 4b, auto Rider with DST. He wouldn't lean at all left or right.

Wow this is hard... feels wrong in my opinion.

I just don't see why the game should be significantly harder to ride than my race bike in-real life?

Keep in mind rodney that it took you quite some time to learn to ride a bicycle (and with all the feedback you have when you are on a real bicycle).

That said, Direct Steer on a joypad is also hard because you have no force feedback: likely, direct steer on a wheel with force feedback is a bit easier (but not much).

Max.

Although if the OP is wanting the most realistic feel this is not how to go about it... or is it?

Well, it's hard to define "realistic".

With DST you're using the same "input" (the handlebar torque) as in real life, but in real life you also have other "inputs" (weight shift), without mentioning that in real life you don't produce the input acting on a small joystick (that would be hard in real life too, probably).

Now I do agree on your point: if it's too much harder than riding a real bike (and we know why it is so), then it's not really realistic.

Only sure thing is that DST is the most challenging way to play with GPB.

MaX.

Maybe, and this is just me thinking off the cuff, but just maybe this is only hard to begin with until your mind and finger co-ordination become automatic according to what your eyes are seeing on screen. Maybe the really hard part is retraining your mind to accept the inputs needed to ride GPB in this way, and that once mastered, this is probably the most realistic way to ride in GPB?

I know Klax has put a very lot of hours into practicing with DST with everything fully manual control, and I guess that sort of dedication and stubborn persistence that it won't beat you is what a rider needs to really learn this DST way of riding GPB, and not to expect it to be the logical way to ride GPB. After all, controlling GPB with a wheel or Xbox controller isn't a logical way to ride a motorcycle(in real life) but it is acceptable to your mind because we've become accustomed to playing sims/games with these interfaces. So to my mind the secret to mastering DST is about retraining the mind to accept this way of controlling GPB.

Just my thoughts on the difficulty of getting your head around DST as a beginner.  ;)

Hawk.

No, it's not only the difficulty to adapt to a different set of controls (which is indeed there and takes some time to be defeated).

It's also (mostly I'd say) the fact that with DS you have no limit on the lean angle: if you keep the stick left, the bike will lean left until it falls. This does not happen without DS, the virtual rider prevents us from falling when we push fully left and we should have not.

Without DS, we push fully left and the virtual rider computes the maximum lean angle for the situation (depending on speed, grip, tire status etc) and tries to achieve this.
That's a lot easier than taking care ourselves of that task

MaX.

Trying to think how to answer questions without coming off as patting myself on the back. :/

On the old forum we had talked about DST, and DS. I was new to GP Bikes and always want to get things as close as possible to real life, since I can't actually do these things. So last summer I turned on DST, to try it. I found it impossible to use. :) Then went back to Default steering.

It was actually Max who inspired me to give it another try again.

A couple months ago, when it was mentioned again. I decided I've played GP Bikes for a year. I know I am not the fastest rider out there, but I could get around the tracks with confidence. So was DS, or DST impossible like people had said. Or was it my lack of time using it. So I decide, I would switch to it, and I would keep trying it until I was able to do it. When I compete in races I would go back to Default Steering just for that event, so I am more competitive. Not because DST is slower, because I wasn't confident pushing to the limits. Other wise I'd only use DST (For me I found DST better over just DS). Crash, after crash, after crash, just getting the bike to move, was a chore.

So I practiced, fell down, fell down again. Saved my replays, watched my replays. What was I doing wrong. Since there is nothing holding the bike up other then me. I'd turn in to a turn, then fall down. I turned in to a turn again fall down. I'd try again realizing throttle meant more, realizing in the turn I had to turn the handle bars the opposite way to hold the bike up to stop it from falling. I had to hold the throttle more consistent.

I didn't play GP Bikes for a couple days, I came back to it. It was like things made sense. I knew why I was falling down, and suddenly had a better idea of how to fix it. I started falling less, I was paying attention more to what was happening on the screen. I stopped worrying about what my lean angle was compared to real life. Then I started seeing with the 990, I was getting it down to 59-62 degrees lean angle without realizing it. I started being able to tell that is what it looks like visually to be leaning that far. Then I could add more throttle in and out of the turns. I could try to break harder.

Is it for everyone no, can you turn it on and go around the track for a full lap first, second or third time using it no. Is DST impossible to use no, it takes a lot of work and practice. My mind is constantly thinking what I am doing, when using DST. The only time I'm not thinking about what I am doing is that short time in a straight. Going back to default steering feels like I can't get the bike to fall down. I can push to the turn as hard as I want and it will stay up. I only fall when breaking, or throttle to much.

The more I do it, the better I am getting at it. The less weird it feels, and more natural it feels. I am thinking about what I am doing, at the same time I know automatically what I need to do. So then I can push harder.

The smaller bikes like the 125cc, and 250cc are harder to use with DST. Since you can't rely so much on squeezing the throttle and having the engine help you pick the bike up. Well the 250cc, has more power behind it so it is a little easier.

Once I did that first complete lap on a track without falling. Knowing I was well off my default steering pace. Yet I still did it, that wall of this is to hard and impossible was gone. I suddenly felt, I want to do that again, I want to do it again and go faster! This isn't impossible, I can do this. Lap times started coming down. I still have a lot to learn, to get competitive. It's like for me I am doing more yet getting more out of it if that make sense. Do I still fall down yep, but not nearly as much as I did. :)

I posted video to show it's not impossible maybe get one of the fast guys on here to try it and see what they can do. :D Who understands bikes better then me, that can actually set up a bike well. I really stink at setting up bikes, or setups in general lol.

Although you're not seeing the 150+ or so replays I've saved and watched to see what I can improve on or what I am doing wrong. :)

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 22, 2014, 12:35:59 AM
No, it's not only the difficulty to adapt to a different set of controls (which is indeed there and takes some time to be defeated).

It's also (mostly I'd say) the fact that with DS you have no limit on the lean angle: if you keep the stick left, the bike will lean left until it falls. This does not happen without DS, the virtual rider prevents us from falling when we push fully left and we should have not.

Without DS, we push fully left and the virtual rider computes the maximum lean angle for the situation (depending on speed, grip, tire status etc) and tries to achieve this.
That's a lot easier than taking care ourselves of that task

MaX.

Oh yes Max, I agree with what your saying about the difficulty of having no lean limits.

I remember talking to Klax about this and it was said that what becomes important is learning each track visually a lot more than usual, especially the visual angles of lean at each corner must be learned simply because of the limitless lean angles. I guess this visual angle of lean will eventually become a sort of automatic second sense enabling a rider to lean into a corner with DST and mentally/visually know how far the rider can lean the bike before approaching that maximum lean angle.

For myself it would be interesting to eventually learn this way of riding to realise if this would be a more realistic feel and experience from the bike(once mastered) than the normal way of controlling GPB. But to do this will take such a radical reprogramming of my brain after spending so much time controlling GPB as we all mostly do, but I'm going to eventually give this a go... But I think the easier transition would be to learn to go fully manual first(that will be a trial in itself. Lol.  ;D ), after mastering that, then will I give DST a serious try.

Hawk.

@ Klax: A great insight(your reply #44) into your journey and trials learning DST Klax.... Nice post mate! ;)

Hawk.

I spent 20 minutes trying to simply take off in 1st gear, once I did get going I lasted 30 seconds -
Am I missing something to play this realistic mode? :-)

Quote from: rodney007 on June 24, 2014, 08:01:20 AM
Am I missing something to play this realistic mode? :-)

A hella of days of practice, most likely :)

MaX.

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 24, 2014, 08:08:59 AM

Quote from: rodney007 on June 24, 2014, 08:01:20 AM
Am I missing something to play this realistic mode? :-)

A hella of days of practice, most likely :)

MaX.

Practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, and more practice.. :)

Quote from: rodney007 on June 24, 2014, 08:01:20 AM
I spent 20 minutes trying to simply take off in 1st gear, once I did get going I lasted 30 seconds -
Am I missing something to play this realistic mode? :-)

Hey,
A few tips that weren't obvious to me at first;
- There is a roll forward and a roll backward that you can use to roll out of the pits. Trying to start anywhere but a straight is near impossible. Because you are controlling via torque, the steering will seem 'backwards' when tootling out of your pit box.
- Start on a decent four stroke. Unless you have good manual clutch control, those small displacement 2 strokes don't provide enough torque to get the bike quickly up to a stable speed.
- Using manual control of left-right lean is often more stable than trying to use steering. Most of the time I won't use any steering taking off, but use a bit of rider lean to help the bike start off in the right direction.

It also helps if you subtly hint to Piboso that a low speed balance assist would be very nice.  ;)

Cheers,
Si

EDIT: And ride like your grandmother. That helps a lot.

Your handle bars will react opposite when standing still. On Victora since I use a Manaul Clutch I always walk the bike out of the garage and turn towards pit exit then I put it in gear and go.

For me when doing turns, I lean my rider, which does pull the bike that direction. Then steer toward that direction, once I get my turn again, I start turning the opposite way to hold the bike at that angle. Also when you first make your turn in, the bike will start to fall, let it fall to help get the turn angle you want. Then use throttle to slow down the fall, the opposite steer the handle bars.

I do the majority of DST practice on the 500cc. I can rider on all the bikes but usually use the 500cc

A challenge for all the non-Klax riders out there; I did a 2:01.187 at Victoria with the standard GP1000. I'm sure someone could beat that with a few laps of practice.

The whole 'turning the bars into the corner' to keep the bike from falling into the turn feels pretty strange, and completely unlike I've experienced riding my bike in real life (never been on a track).
Through the powers of google, though, it looks like this is a real thing;
http://www.msgroup.org/Tip.aspx?Num=256 (http://www.msgroup.org/Tip.aspx?Num=256) (Second half of that page)

Si

simple way of discribing counter steer..

sit on your bike! with your right hand put pressure on the right handlebar pushing away from you! (so the bars and front wheel turn left) notice the bike will want to lean/tip to the right..

has the same effect when riding along.. can help pick the bike up coming out of corners too by applying pressure on the left bar!

i think that sub-conciously happens anyway as you move your body around..

It's just amazing how many riders do not know about counter steering. Just proves that the current training and exams for a bike license are mostly rubbish.

Wanna try countersteering ? Take a big parking, run your bike at 40-50Kmh and give a push to the handlebars so that they rotate left (push with your right hand). Then look at where your bike goes ...

MaX.

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 29, 2014, 01:21:19 PM
It's just amazing how many riders do not know about counter steering.

MaX.

Indeed, i think is something so intuitive when you ride that most people don't even notice it. I have had heavy discussions with people that have been riding R bikes for years trying to convince them that they turn right for a left lean. Theyr reply was like :"WHAT !! are you crazy !!??  , you are gonna kill yourself !"   lol  ;D

More DST Practice. Here is 4 Laps around Assen on the new M1. With a big high side at the end. lol Also using a brighter sun light source on the track.


DST Yamaha M1 4 laps around Assen:
http://www.youtube.com/v/NwEbymfo1DQ

DST Practice Videos.


DST Croft Aprilia RSV4:
http://www.youtube.com/v/N0RmvYpWohs


DST Silverstone Ducati 996R:
http://www.youtube.com/v/AlnNFHDCjjE

Does the bike have resistance at max lean angle? or does it feel like it will drop if you counter-steer anymore?

I'm not a very technical person so I'll try my best to answer. :D

When I have it as far as I think it can go without falling over. The front wheel will shake, not the violent wobble, but a kind of shake.  It doesn't really feel like it will fall over if I counter steer to much. But the throttle and counter steering your doing constant adjustments. To much throttle the back whips out from behind you and you fall, to little and you lose to much speed and then you fall. That's on the 1000cc, with the 500cc, the fairings hit the ground first. You might get a little shake in the front wheel but usually the fairing is scrapping first. With the 125cc you have to try to hit the turn fast, since it doesn't have the power to help you lift the bike when using the throttle. The 250cc has more power and it helps you more with the throttle. The 125cc, and 250cc with DST you have to be gentle with the steering they want to turn fast and lean fast. Have to be smoother with the turning and counter steering. The 1000cc, 600cc, and 500cc they feel a lot heavier when giving steering input.

With Beta 5b the tires feel a lot better. With DST and Beta 4b, the more I lean the bike over the less it felt like the tires were grabbing the tarmac. With Beta 5b, when you are leaning really far you still feel like there is grip when hitting the throttle. Not as much as a shall lean but way more then beta 4b.

The brakes in Beta 5b feel better too in DST. You can take a turn using the front brake with a lot more confidence. Where as in Beta 4b you feel like your tires had virtually no grip when leaning and where just sliding a long. This is where Default Steering the virtual rider made up for that. I very rarely ever use the rear brake, if I try to use it in a turn the bike falls over. This could just be me, so I don't really use the rear brake, maybe in a straight. The front brake in Beta 5b catches more when turning and makes you feel like you still have control. If you hit the front brake to hard the bike will want to lift up. Which in some hair pins is nice. But if you are really have on the front brake it will try to lift for a second then fall over. Won't lift to standing completely if you loose to much speed. Or you lose the back since the back wants to go faster then the front. lol

Hope that make sense?

DST Practice, first time riding the KTM RC8R at Mallory Park 1978.


DST Mallory Park 1978 KTM RC8R:
http://www.youtube.com/v/ZwEceb8dU7w

DST Practice, Mallory Park 1978 Ducati GP12. This video I have two views one of what I saw from helmet view, and the second TV Camera track view. I couldn't get both video exactly lined up but it's very close. Also when I ride normally I don't have all the on screen stuff on. I usually just use the helmet, and maybe the gear indicator that's it. Might have to click the Youtube button to go to the HD larger version to see things clearer.


DST Mallory Park 1978 Side by Side View:
http://www.youtube.com/v/FHQuzfaELxA

Hi Klax.

Your getting some very impressive lean angles there mate! Nicely done!

Any chance of power sliding the KTM RC8R all the way around "Gerrards Bend" on Mallory Park 1978?  That would look amazing! ;D ;D 8)

Hawk.

Really good video, thx

DST Practice, Laguna Seca riding the Yamaha YZR 500 '93


DST Practice Laguna Seca:
http://www.youtube.com/v/f3ymNAtv0AA

Hi Klax.

Very impressive mate...... Your certainly the leading light of ultimate hardcore riding in GPB with fully manual DST control, showing that it can be done if riders are willing to put in the practice.

Keep up the good work!  ;D 8)

Hawk.

Thanks dude. :) I'm finding it a lot of fun, frustrating at times but fun.

Quote from: Hawk_UK on August 20, 2014, 07:41:10 AM
Hi Klax.

Very impressive mate...... Your certainly the leading light of ultimate hardcore riding in GPB with fully manual DST control, showing that it can be done if riders are willing to put in the practice.

Keep up the good work!  ;D 8)

Hawk.

I concur, very impressive Klax!

Real real good Klax:)
I saw a thing that we cannot do, we the poors automatic riders;)
When you arrive at the corkscrew there is a right curve before the big left right corkscrew.
You make the rider movements like in reality, you always have the left knee deployed until the middle of the corkscrew. We can only do a right and left knee deployment and it makes many movements to the bike that you don't have.

Quote from: janaucarre on August 20, 2014, 12:34:31 PM
Real real good Klax:)
I saw a thing that we cannot do, we the poors automatic riders;)
When you arrive at the corkscrew there is a right curve before the big left right corkscrew.
You make the rider movements like in reality, you always have the left knee deployed until the middle of the corkscrew. We can only do a right and left knee deployment and it makes many movements to the bike that you don't have.

You just need manual rider L/R to do that (i.e. no need for direct steer), no ?

MaX.

Quote from: HornetMaX on August 20, 2014, 12:36:23 PM

Quote from: janaucarre on August 20, 2014, 12:34:31 PM
Real real good Klax:)
I saw a thing that we cannot do, we the poors automatic riders;)
When you arrive at the corkscrew there is a right curve before the big left right corkscrew.
You make the rider movements like in reality, you always have the left knee deployed until the middle of the corkscrew. We can only do a right and left knee deployment and it makes many movements to the bike that you don't have.

You just need manual rider L/R to do that (i.e. no need for direct steer), no ?

MaX.

Correct that's more using Manual rider, being able to kick his knee out before the turn no matter what direction I am steering.

I right when beta5 came out, i played a bit with manual rider L/R and I find it excellent visually.
Other riders say it makes you slower, but that's not a big concern to me, I'm already slow :)

MaX.

Yes slower.. But with practice manual rider L/R has potential to be faster imo.. So stable.

After a lot of time with Beta 5b using DST. I feel the tire model is much better. In beta 4/4b when I would lean the bike the more I leaned the bike the less it seemed to tires gripped the track and more it seemed like I was just moving forward. So it made using the throttle coming out of the turn more cautious. In beta 5b, I have much more confidence when leaning the bike over, the tires feel like they will grip much better when applying throttle. I feel more of a bite in the traction of the tire, it's still very easy to kick the rear of the bike if throttling to hard. But over all when giving throttle, it feels like the tire is grabbing more of the tarmac then it did in Beta 4/4b.

In Beta 4/4b the more I'd lean the bike the more it felt like the tires where feeling like they were very worn as it was a old tire that had lost grip. When standing it back up the grip level would come back.

Totally agree with you klax.

DST Practice, using the Ducati GP10. Did a lap of 9:33.403. My best lap so far, towards the end my momentum slowed slightly. Was losing circulation in my right hand. lol

DST Nordschleife Ducati GP10:
http://www.youtube.com/v/QXbzSmDCD9Q

After watching some Isle of Man video's and the Road Documentary, I decided to try Ulster GP again with DST. :)

DST Yamaha M1 Ulster GP Helmet View:
http://www.youtube.com/v/iUpOJDiDxh8

Also been practicing with MX Bikes with DST. Still haven't done a full lap yet. Trying to find the speed and lean limits I can hit without falling.

Hi Klax, thank you for the inspirational posts! :)

After reading this thread I decided to give DST a try and ain't it awesome!

Having to push on the outer grip after a too aggressive initial lean-in just to keep the bike off the ground, taking a turn with only initial lean-in and correct throttle control... it's so much more like the real thing. Going from default steering to DST feels almost like going from MotoGP14 to GP Bikes. I'm liking the game even more now, thanks again! ;D

is it faster?i try it and didnt like it but maybe i need 1000hours of practice :)

Quote from: -aGy- on October 24, 2014, 05:19:22 AM
is it faster?i try it and didnt like it but maybe i need 1000hours of practice :)

No way. Not even after 1000 days of practice.
Just a feeling, I didn't put the 1000 days in :)

MaX.

I don't know if it can generally be faster, I'm fairly new to GP Bikes and I was slow with default steering anyway.

I like DST because it seems more representative of actual steering. It just feels more enjoyable. But I'm here for the riding, not racing :)

Also, unlike Klax, I'm using assists right now - clutch is automatic and I'm not moving the rider at all. I'll get to these once I'm more comfortable with the steering.

so its not faster.. why use it! dont get it but hey thats me ???

Quote from: -aGy- on October 25, 2014, 10:25:41 AM
so its not faster.. why use it! dont get it but hey thats me ???

Hi -aGy-

It's not about being faster or the fastest, it's about doing things as much as possible the real way; I guess it's the difference between hardcore sim control enthusiasts and the more arcade type of control(that most of us use).

It's just wanting to do things the real way(as much as possible) rather than making things easier just to be able to control it easier(for the want of putting it a better way. Lol).  :)

Hawk.

i know what you mean and very good point. realism is the key. waited this game for since 2001sbk and ilove it(i make little physics tweak in it (sbk2001) and uploaded bhmotorsports.com site some years ago)but the site is gone ....see you at the track.. i was little annoyed because could not handle it >:(  (bike)  oon suomesta niin tosi huono lontoo!! :)

To me, it's very controversial.

For sure Direct steer torque is the input method closer to the real thing. But that does not necessarily mean it's the most appropriate method.

First, if you use DST torque with no force feedback (as Klax), you're off track by a mile (but I understand why he does it).

Second, on a real bike it's not that difficult to start from stand or do a proper turn: the difficulty of DST comes, of course, from the limited interaction we have with a pad or a steering wheel (i.e. by not sitting on the actual bike). True you could say the same without DST, but with DST the problem is amplified.

The more I think about it the more I believe Piboso's standard choice (i.e. stick controlling the target lean angle) is the right way to go. You lose counter-steering, but anyway in usual situations countersteering happens in an almost subconscious way (proof, most of the riders are not even aware they are countersteering at each and every turn they take above silly speeds).

MaX.

I haven't written in this thread in a while. After months of Beta 6c. I have to say it is the best one yet for DST. A lot of the issues that were with other betas are gone or much less.

Now the rider will hold the handle bars straight when sitting and even when walking the bike it is much easier to do. Once you start using the motor to move it goes back to how DST is. But standing still the handle bars won't flow to one side or the other and won't steer opposite of what your inputs are.

Low speed handling is very much improved. In previous betas, when hitting the front brake the bike would want to sit up quickly while you were loosing speed, then it would want to fall over if it got to slow. Now if you hit the brakes when at a high lean again you can do so, the bike might try to pick up slightly but you can hold your lean angle. Before braking in a turn at a high lean angle could be tricky, if you did it to hard you'd fall instantly. Did it hard but not hard enough the bike would want to stand up. Now you can brake while entering a turn and the front feels very steady. You can still break to hard and then just fall over. But the over all feeling is a lot more confidence since the bike will roughly stay at the lean angle you want while breaking.

In previous betas, if you were riding and do a corn very slow the bike would want to start S turning on you swaying back and forth in a S pattern. In the current beta this is gone, so riding at low speeds is much more enjoyable, and more predictable of how the bike is going to move. At low and high speeds, the bike handles roughly the same. Where in older betas this wasn't the case.

As with previous betas, the violent wobble that comes from the virtual rider. DST doesn't have it to the same degree, some instances it is there but really nothing throttle control can't fix. Where as the virtual rider will try to violent check the steering and cause a wobble.

With the new beta since you can ride on the grass or in the gravel. For DST it is much better, before the slightest little off, on grass or any type of gravel you would instantly loose the balance of the bike and be ejected off it. There is still one issue on some tracks curbs, if I get on them I will instantly get thrown off. But it's only certain track curbs.

Over all this beta as far as DST goes is the best beta yet. Low speed, and braking while at high lean angles is noticeably different. The bike is a lot more steady, and gives you a lot more confidence in what it will do. Falling is more predictable, where I still fall a lot, it's just doesn't feel as random as before. Now usually a split second before I fall I know why it happened.

Lean angles on the bikes are kind of the same as previous betas, so I'm not going to get a 125-250cc bike down as low as I can get the 990.

The lighter bikes are more stable when getting them up to speed, before they wanted to do S turns  when  first building speed. The heavier bikes never really did this, in this beta that problem is very slight now.

DST Kalex KTM Spa Francorchamp:
http://www.youtube.com/v/oVZ54RIEG1k

Just startet playing gp bikes again after about 2 years. I'm still learning the usual way again but I'm very interested about your riding style, klax.
Are you only riding for yourself or do you compete in online races?
If you do so, do you change the steering for this to normal or do you keep DST?

This setup is alot of fun once you get the hang if it gets really intriguing and seems to never become boring considering how high the learning curve seems to be

Looks like I missed quite a lot during these years. If only I stayed long enough to encounter this thread, I'd have more motivation to continue on experimenting with the old DST type back then.

Not sure if you are still enjoying GPB the direct steering way, Klax, but this here is some impressive stuff :) My personal record was going past that pesky upslope right-hander tight hairpin at A7000 once or twice, but since then I was unable to repeat it. Even with the latest beta :/

Hi, MaX, if you still remember me :) I think you are wrong about the default steering being the proper choice for GPB. To make an incredibly good physics engine only to hamper it with extremely dumbed down controls? There should be better ways than that. Ok, maybe direct steering as it is now is still pretty extreme, but... who said it can't be improved? I'm sure that if done properly, hardly anybody will want to go back to the default steering. Direct Steering is the future. It just needs more thinking on how to improve it. Maybe some artificial balancing act on the side of the rider (after all, our inner ear forces us to do something about impending falling over, so why not make the virtual rider susceptible to that as well?)

Quote from: passerBy on April 04, 2017, 09:38:25 PM
To make an incredibly good physics engine only to hamper it with extremely dumbed down controls?

My opinion: DST and DSA may (may) make sense only if you have a FFB input device. DST/DSA on a joypad sounds like doing high precision work with boxing gloves on.

Quote from: HornetMaX on April 05, 2017, 06:45:00 AM
My opinion: DST and DSA may (may) make sense only if you have a FFB input device. DST/DSA on a joypad sounds like doing high precision work with boxing gloves on.

As in Direct Steering Angle? Ok :) Indeed. Especially this particular mode. But I wouldn't call a force feedback wheel a rare controller (after all, I got one myself some time later after leaving the forum). And after trying the directsteer=2 mode with it, I instantly felt, "this is it!" I still remember suggesting Piboso a mode where you could actually handle the wheel as it was the bars, and the result has exceeded my expectations.

By the way, Max. I saw you had thoughts on a new kind of a controller that could resemble turnable handlebars, but with loadcells... Don't you think it could be implemented way easier? I think that a direct-drive wheel would already be next to perfect, especially if the peak forces can be smoothed out.
After all, we do not input torque into the handlebars, we always try to set some angle. It's just that after picking up speed we have to apply much more torque to turn the bars very little. So, I think the answer here is still an angular system with some kind of an enhanced precision angle reading and with more feedback.

I haven't tried directsteer=1 in a while, but as far as I can remember my joystick experiments, it was next to impossible to set the bars straight during the start. Another reason why I insist on that we input angle, not torque.

Quote from: passerBy on April 05, 2017, 07:55:47 AM
After all, we do not input torque into the handlebars, we always try to set some angle.

I disagree on that statement. To me, riding has always felt more of pushing/pulling the bars (i.e. applying a torque) than setting the bars' angle (except for extremely low speeds, like below 50Kmh).

Personally I think DSA is more applicable than DST but:

• It still has the virtual rider in the middle (as the physical model has a torque input, not an angle input).
• We have no proper input device with FFB: I hate the idea of using a steering wheel + pedals ...if I have to make a compromise I can as well make it all the way and use a joypad (or use stuff with no FFB, like doubledragoncc's system).

Quote from: HornetMaX on April 05, 2017, 08:39:44 AM

Quote from: passerBy on April 05, 2017, 07:55:47 AM
After all, we do not input torque into the handlebars, we always try to set some angle.

I disagree on that statement. To me, riding has always felt more of pushing/pulling the bars (i.e. applying a torque) than setting the bars' angle (except for extremely low speeds, like below 50Kmh).

However, in the end it's all about the angle.

QuotePersonally I think DSA is more applicable than DST but:

• It still has the virtual rider in the middle (as the physical model has a torque input, not an angle input).

It has. But at least that's not as big a compromise as basically having an autopilot do all the steering for you.
As for the physical model, back at the time where was only torque based DS I had the idea of the sim's engine applying all torques and rotational resistance imitations sans the rider's to the controller, after which the resulting steering angle would be fed back into the engine. In my opinion, theoretically this could be the best possible solution. Except we don't have controllers of that grade available, and I'm not sure whether the input lag would be acceptable for the engine.
Well, seems like Piboso managed to make a good compromise with this DS mode. At least I enjoy it a great deal, even if on a relatively cheap Logitech wheel. I still think that using a direct drive wheel with some massive Nm rating, the resulting experience could be very close to the real deal. I wouldn't want to hit a kerb like that though :) Hence the suggestion of FFB filtering.

Quote

• We have no proper input device with FFB: I hate the idea of using a steering wheel + pedals ...if I have to make a compromise I can as well make it all the way and use a joypad (or use stuff with no FFB, like doubledragoncc's system).

Well, you might hate the idea, but have you tried it yet? The amount of information I get from the FFB in this mode is worth the trouble, I'd say. And since I use car sims as well (what I bought the wheel for in the first place), the less trouble of switching/reconfiguring controllers.
Looking at all these Klax videos here I tend to think that DS with torque might be manageable with a joypad (really like how he handles the rider lean with the thumbstick), but after what I had experienced with the wheel, there's no going back for me. You might argue that it's all wrong, but... it's simply another level of immersion when you can actually feel something from your bike while riding. Now if only there was headtracking-controlled rider lean implemented...

Edit: I really like the DD's controller, but using it to command the AI a certain bike lean angle is something religiously wrong for me  :D And without any FFB it looks like a wasted opportunity, which is extremely saddening.

Quote from: passerBy on April 05, 2017, 09:07:00 AM

Quote from: HornetMaX on April 05, 2017, 08:39:44 AM

Quote from: passerBy on April 05, 2017, 07:55:47 AM
After all, we do not input torque into the handlebars, we always try to set some angle.

I disagree on that statement. To me, riding has always felt more of pushing/pulling the bars (i.e. applying a torque) than setting the bars' angle (except for extremely low speeds, like below 50Kmh).

However, in the end it's all about the angle.

No. And if you write down the equations of the bike you see that immediately.
Let's say we agree to disagree.

Quote from: passerBy on April 05, 2017, 09:07:00 AM
As for the physical model, back at the time where was only torque based DS I had the idea of the sim's engine applying all torques and rotational resistance imitations sans the rider's to the controller, after which the resulting steering angle would be fed back into the engine.

When DSA has been suggested and added (years and years ago, by the way) GPB FFB output was already the "total torque acting on the bars minus the torque generated by the rider", for the simple reason that this is what makes sense (and what is used in car sims). That has not been changed by DSA.

Quote from: passerBy on April 05, 2017, 09:07:00 AM
In my opinion, theoretically this could be the best possible solution. Except we don't have controllers of that grade available, and I'm not sure whether the input lag would be acceptable for the engine.

Isn't this what I just said in my previous post ? ("We have no proper input device with FFB")

Quote from: passerBy on April 05, 2017, 09:07:00 AM
I still think that using a direct drive wheel with some massive Nm rating, the resulting experience could be very close to the real deal. I wouldn't want to hit a kerb like that though :) Hence the suggestion of FFB filtering.

Likely the filtering should not be done by GPB but by your FFB device (as a safety measure, anyway).

Quote from: passerBy on April 05, 2017, 09:07:00 AM

Quote

• We have no proper input device with FFB: I hate the idea of using a steering wheel + pedals ...if I have to make a compromise I can as well make it all the way and use a joypad (or use stuff with no FFB, like doubledragoncc's system).

Well, you might hate the idea, but have you tried it yet?

Yes, right after DSA came out (and most likely I will try it again in a few months, I'll likely buy a steering wheel just for that, I'm not much into car sims).

But aside the angle/torque thing, I think I agree with you on DSA being interesting, potentially even more interesting than DST.
What is unclear to me is: what would you like to improve in DST/DSA ? There's not a lot that can be done on GPB side. Actually there's nothing at all for DST and little on DSA. Most of the work is on the input device side.

P.S.
I think somebody (can't remember if teeds or h106) was playing around with a large motor to be used as input FFB device. Don't know exactly how things went but they are both still around on the forum ...

It was H http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=1997.0

here you go https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PL-Al6rzTlW-jTITpzG1WStYXkajvHbi4k&v=o_Vh_vsRYWs

im curious here. what is FFB? and DDs setup?

FFB = force feedback. doubledragoncc (dd, or ddcc) is the guy that builds and sells the controller in the video you posted. He's on this forum.
But the device in your video has no FFB.

Quote from: HornetMaX on April 05, 2017, 06:26:34 PM
FFB = force feedback. doubledragoncc (dd, or ddcc) is the guy that builds and sells the controller in the video you posted. He's on this forum.
But the device in your video has no FFB.

Oh!! I did not know that! Interresting. Well the more you know, as you might can tell im no Sim expert my first sim game would be GT5.... if you can even call it a sim ive never used a wheel before aswel

Quote from: HornetMaX on April 05, 2017, 12:54:24 PM

Quote from: passerBy on April 05, 2017, 09:07:00 AM
However, in the end it's all about the angle.

No. And if you write down the equations of the bike you see that immediately.
Let's say we agree to disagree.

Ok, after giving it some thought, I'd say I agree with you... partially. At a high enough forward rotational velocity, an attempt to turn the front wheel to a side will lead to its tilting to the opposite side (which in turn should make the rear wheel want to turn in the same direction?)
Though, it's more like two steering modes are active at the same time and mixed together in certain proportions depending on the current velocity.

Quote

Quote from: passerBy on April 05, 2017, 09:07:00 AM
As for the physical model, back at the time where was only torque based DS I had the idea of the sim's engine applying all torques and rotational resistance imitations sans the rider's to the controller, after which the resulting steering angle would be fed back into the engine.

When DSA has been suggested and added (years and years ago, by the way) GPB FFB output was already the "total torque acting on the bars minus the torque generated by the rider", for the simple reason that this is what makes sense (and what is used in car sims). That has not been changed by DSA.

Suggested around 4 years ago, to be precise. I remember the frustration of trying to keep the bars straight at a standstill using only the torque input, so I asked Piboso if it was possible to make an alternative mode for FFB devices where the position of the controller would correspond to the virtual handlebars position. Ok, I don't claim he made this after my request, but at least I was suggesting such a mode, that much I can remember. And as far as I can remember, back then hardly anybody else was interested in DS (I used to call it a "hardcore mode").
I didn't have an FFB wheel at the time, so it was purely theoretic for me, and I quit trying getting along with the torque mode after making sure I was able to at least do a couple of consequential laps at Cadwell Park without dropping the bike. It was extremely difficult at the time, so I didn't feel like continuing improving my riding, but I also couldn't go back to the "autopilot", so I switched to car sims and left the forum, hoping that one of these days GPB will get improved enough for me to continue the direct steering quest. And it did.

You still don't remember me, Max? I'm asking this because of all people here I had the most conversations with you, including those related to direct steering.

As for the FFB coupled with the torque mode, I have a trouble imagining how that should work, but then again, having FFB in the default mode should feel even weirder. I haven't tried either so far once I got the wheel, though. Might give it a try later.

Quote

Quote from: passerBy on April 05, 2017, 09:07:00 AM
In my opinion, theoretically this could be the best possible solution. Except we don't have controllers of that grade available, and I'm not sure whether the input lag would be acceptable for the engine.

Isn't this what I just said in my previous post ? ("We have no proper input device with FFB")

That's something that can be said about pretty much any sim out there... Still think a direct drive wheel might do wonders coupled with GPB.

Quote

Quote from: passerBy on April 05, 2017, 09:07:00 AM
I still think that using a direct drive wheel with some massive Nm rating, the resulting experience could be very close to the real deal. I wouldn't want to hit a kerb like that though :) Hence the suggestion of FFB filtering.

Likely the filtering should not be done by GPB but by your FFB device (as a safety measure, anyway).

Never heard about the devices themselves doing the filtering, but it's a compelling notion. I mostly meant the filtering like the one found in rFactor 2.
Judging by some people having "accidents" with direct drive wheels, maybe your idea is not just a food for thought, but something that should be strictly enforced instead.

Quote

Quote
Well, you might hate the idea, but have you tried it yet?

Yes, right after DSA came out (and most likely I will try it again in a few months, I'll likely buy a steering wheel just for that, I'm not much into car sims).

Well, even though I bought this wheel for car sims, ever since the recent update for the 11th beta was out, I was using the wheel mostly with GPB anyway.
A word of advice though: consider getting at least a belt-driven wheel. Logitechs full of gears are not very good in terms of feel.

QuoteBut aside the angle/torque thing, I think I agree with you on DSA being interesting, potentially even more interesting than DST.
What is unclear to me is: what would you like to improve in DST/DSA ? There's not a lot that can be done on GPB side. Actually there's nothing at all for DST and little on DSA. Most of the work is on the input device side.

Well, I certainly need to give the torque mode another go (using my joysticks instead of the wheel). Maybe it's miles more manageable in this beta... However, I'm sure it won't provide the same level of enjoyment. So, I will only be speaking relative to the angle command mode for now.
First of all, there needs to be a way to control the rider's lean. Maybe some artificial vestibular function, maybe just converting the translational headtracking axes into the lean. Then I will need to figure out what else gets in the way of tackling hairpins, especially sloped ones. They are still devilishly hard to get through. If it's the driver's balance that drops the bike, the balance needs to be augmented. If it's the controller getting in the way of self-righting, the virtual fork and the controller need to be made coupled loosely enough.

At the moment direct steering is still very difficult to get accustomed to (but at least not next to impossible, as it was back then). I hope you'll agree this much. But I'm absolutely against simply dropping it in favor of the default steering. If that'd happen, I would simply quit bike sims altogether. Or at least buy myself Ride 2, since in the end the experience wouldn't be that much different, but that game has better content.

Quote
P.S.
I think somebody (can't remember if teeds or h106) was playing around with a large motor to be used as input FFB device. Don't know exactly how things went but they are both still around on the forum ...

I have an alternative idea to that and planning to share it in the custom controllers section soon enough.

@Become dust, have you tried the directsteer=2 mode already? If so, what do you think?

I still struggle to make it function if i understand correct i should be directly controlling the handlebars correct?

Nvm! Its functioning! I also learned its really difficult to hold the balance

Ive tested it out and i can see why you FFB guys like the setup, directsteer actually applies with... direct steer :D but then i got this crazy idea. Whynot use DST? But with reverse torque, if im not crazy but it feels like DSA but with a more easier balancing bike. I might be crazy but DST with negative maxtorque 1 as negative it feels pretty great!! Again.... might be total nonsense bjt hey! Me like

Quote from: passerBy on April 05, 2017, 06:48:43 PM
Suggested around 4 years ago, to be precise. I remember the frustration of trying to keep the bars straight at a standstill using only the torque input, so I asked Piboso if it was possible to make an alternative mode for FFB devices where the position of the controller would correspond to the virtual handlebars position. Ok, I don't claim he made this after my request, but at least I was suggesting such a mode, that much I can remember. And as far as I can remember, back then hardly anybody else was interested in DS (I used to call it a "hardcore mode").
I didn't have an FFB wheel at the time, so it was purely theoretic for me, and I quit trying getting along with the torque mode after making sure I was able to at least do a couple of consequential laps at Cadwell Park without dropping the bike. It was extremely difficult at the time, so I didn't feel like continuing improving my riding, but I also couldn't go back to the "autopilot", so I switched to car sims and left the forum, hoping that one of these days GPB will get improved enough for me to continue the direct steering quest. And it did.

You still don't remember me, Max? I'm asking this because of all people here I had the most conversations with you, including those related to direct steering.

I vaguely remember somebody, may well be you, in the discussion that led to DSA. Polish ?

Quote from: passerBy on April 05, 2017, 06:48:43 PM
As for the FFB coupled with the torque mode, I have a trouble imagining how that should work, but then again, having FFB in the default mode should feel even weirder. I haven't tried either so far once I got the wheel, though. Might give it a try later.

In principle, DST is the real deal, but it needs a very special input device: one that sends out a torque to GPB and receives and angle in input of the device (so that the device itself will align its angle to the angle of the bars in-game). It's more or less the opposite of a steering wheel (that sends an angle to GPB and receives in input a force signal).

Quote from: passerBy on April 05, 2017, 06:48:43 PM
Never heard about the devices themselves doing the filtering, but it's a compelling notion. I mostly meant the filtering like the one found in rFactor 2.
Judging by some people having "accidents" with direct drive wheels, maybe your idea is not just a food for thought, but something that should be strictly enforced instead.

That's just basic safety: as soon as an electrical motor is strong enough, one has to take safety into account.

Quote from: passerBy on April 05, 2017, 06:48:43 PM
A word of advice though: consider getting at least a belt-driven wheel. Logitechs full of gears are not very good in terms of feel.

A used logitech will do for start. As said I'm not into car sims, so I'd put money in a wheel only if I find it extremely good with GPB.
But at the moment I think that a system like ddcc's one is likely to be better overall, so I would eventually decide to go for that.

Anyway, if I want something close to the real thing, I can just pick up the keys and take my bike :P

Quote from: passerBy on April 05, 2017, 06:48:43 PM
Well, I certainly need to give the torque mode another go (using my joysticks instead of the wheel). Maybe it's miles more manageable in this beta... However, I'm sure it won't provide the same level of enjoyment.

DST with joystick = masochism.

Klax, the only guy that managed to do a lap with it, had some very personal reasons to pick up this as a personal challenge. Without going into details, he was prevented to ride on a real bike so he wanted to succeed with DST. As far as I know he's no longer on the forum.  But Klax, if you read this, best wishes man !

Quote from: passerBy on April 05, 2017, 06:48:43 PM
First of all, there needs to be a way to control the rider's lean. Maybe some artificial vestibular function, maybe just converting the translational headtracking axes into the lean. Then I will need to figure out what else gets in the way of tackling hairpins, especially sloped ones. They are still devilishly hard to get through. If it's the driver's balance that drops the bike, the balance needs to be augmented. If it's the controller getting in the way of self-righting, the virtual fork and the controller need to be made coupled loosely enough.

You should be able to take any corner without any rider lean. Rider lean can't be the problem here.
Probably hairpins are tough because they are very low speed and at very low speed the bike steering behaviour is very different from high speed.
With the default steering, hairpins are not harder than the rest.
Sloped turns are, unfortunately, a known issue though.

Quote from: passerBy on April 05, 2017, 06:48:43 PM
At the moment direct steering is still very difficult to get accustomed to (but at least not next to impossible, as it was back then). I hope you'll agree this much. But I'm absolutely against simply dropping it in favor of the default steering. If that'd happen, I would simply quit bike sims altogether. Or at least buy myself Ride 2, since in the end the experience wouldn't be that much different, but that game has better content.

If you find the the experience of GPB and Ride2 very close, then yes, you should probably buy Ride2  ;D

DST is quite difficult but once you get the hand of it its pretty fun! My best laptime without crashing is 3min 2 seconds, as far as i can tell that is not quick, but definately not slow! Atm im trying DSA it does feel alot different but it just feels like DST but with negative values, but atm im just in a big dilema of what feels best.... the way i see it is that we need DSA handlebar controls and DST rider controll that would allow for a more diverse feel of the controlls as i feel like on DSA rider lean is virtually useless... might need more testing

Quote from: Become dust on April 05, 2017, 07:27:22 PM
DST is quite difficult but once you get the hand of it its pretty fun! My best laptime without crashing is 3min 2 seconds, as far as i can tell that is not quick, but definately not slow! Atm im trying DSA it does feel alot different but it just feels like DST but with negative values, but atm im just in a big dilema of what feels best.... the way i see it is that we need DSA handlebar controls and DST rider controll that would allow for a more diverse feel of the controlls as i feel like on DSA rider lean is virtually useless... might need more testing

There's no such a thing as DST/DSA for rider lean. DST/DSA only take care of bike steering/leaning, not rider movements.

Quote from: HornetMaX on April 05, 2017, 07:36:04 PM

Quote from: Become dust on April 05, 2017, 07:27:22 PM
DST is quite difficult but once you get the hand of it its pretty fun! My best laptime without crashing is 3min 2 seconds, as far as i can tell that is not quick, but definately not slow! Atm im trying DSA it does feel alot different but it just feels like DST but with negative values, but atm im just in a big dilema of what feels best.... the way i see it is that we need DSA handlebar controls and DST rider controll that would allow for a more diverse feel of the controlls as i feel like on DSA rider lean is virtually useless... might need more testing

There's no such a thing as DST/DSA for rider lean. DST/DSA only take care of bike steering/leaning, not rider movements.

Aha. I was not aware, but i guess that is the conclusion you get when you base it of on visual feedback only

Quote from: Become dust on April 05, 2017, 07:10:57 PM
Ive tested it out and i can see why you FFB guys like the setup, directsteer actually applies with... direct steer :D but then i got this crazy idea. Whynot use DST? But with reverse torque, if im not crazy but it feels like DSA but with a more easier balancing bike. I might be crazy but DST with negative maxtorque 1 as negative it feels pretty great!! Again.... might be total nonsense bjt hey! Me like

I'm glad you are enjoying it in the end :) Not sure if I follow your thought process after all, but I will test what you proposed tomorrow. I have my doubts on it actually feeling the right way, but simply checking won't hurt :)

As for the difficulty of balancing, well... As I said, it's best to abstain from leaning the rider right and left while you don't have a lot of experience yet. Also, I suppose you still haven't bought the sim and therefore are stuck with the 125 cc bike. Those things used to be significantly less balanced than the bigger bikes, please keep that in mind. If you will manage to keep the 125 upright more or less successfully, you'll be doing much better with the liters. That's almost a given.

Again, you might want to play with the Lean linearity and push it higher than 100%.
By the way, I used to set the Direct Lean slider all the way to the right. However, today I tried setting it to 0 instead, and with the BES' Yamaha I was able to lean the rider into the turns most of the time without capsizing. Had to soften the suspension a bit first, though.

Quote from: passerBy on April 05, 2017, 08:01:38 PM

Quote from: Become dust on April 05, 2017, 07:10:57 PM
Ive tested it out and i can see why you FFB guys like the setup, directsteer actually applies with... direct steer :D but then i got this crazy idea. Whynot use DST? But with reverse torque, if im not crazy but it feels like DSA but with a more easier balancing bike. I might be crazy but DST with negative maxtorque 1 as negative it feels pretty great!! Again.... might be total nonsense bjt hey! Me like

I'm glad you are enjoying it in the end :) Not sure if I follow your thought process after all, but I will test what you proposed tomorrow. I have my doubts on it actually feeling the right way, but simply checking won't hurt :)

As for the difficulty of balancing, well... As I said, it's best to abstain from leaning the rider right and left while you don't have a lot of experience yet. Also, I suppose you still haven't bought the sim and therefore are stuck with the 125 cc bike. Those things used to be significantly less balanced than the bigger bikes, please keep that in mind. If you will manage to keep the 125 upright more or less successfully, you'll be doing much better with the liters. That's almost a given.

Again, you might want to play with the Lean linearity and push it higher than 100%.
By the way, I used to set the Direct Lean slider all the way to the right. However, today I tried setting it to 0 instead, and with the BES' Yamaha I was able to lean the rider into the turns most of the time without capsizing. Had to soften the suspension a bit first, though.

Aha. I am pretty new so all my feedback could be just absolute noncense but yeah there is alot i still need to learn and understand yet im very happy about discovering this game

Quote from: passerBy on April 05, 2017, 08:01:38 PM
By the way, I used to set the Direct Lean slider all the way to the right. However, today I tried setting it to 0 instead, and with the BES' Yamaha I was able to lean the rider into the turns most of the time without capsizing. Had to soften the suspension a bit first, though.

Uh that's strange as Direct Lean has nothing to do with rider lean and, if I recall correctly (maybe PiBoSo can confirm) when you use DST/DSA, Direct Lean has no effect at all.

Quote from: HornetMaX on April 05, 2017, 08:20:19 PM

Quote from: passerBy on April 05, 2017, 08:01:38 PM
By the way, I used to set the Direct Lean slider all the way to the right. However, today I tried setting it to 0 instead, and with the BES' Yamaha I was able to lean the rider into the turns most of the time without capsizing. Had to soften the suspension a bit first, though.

Uh that's strange as Direct Lean has nothing to do with rider lean and, if I recall correctly (maybe PiBoSo can confirm) when you use DST/DSA, Direct Lean has no effect at all.

You tell me, im practically new here!

Quote from: HornetMaX on April 05, 2017, 07:17:37 PM
I vaguely remember somebody, may well be you, in the discussion that led to DSA. Polish ?

That might have been me. Not Polish. But I suppose the nationality is irrelevant :) At least for me it is.

Quote
In principle, DST is the real deal, but it needs a very special input device: one that sends out a torque to GPB and receives and angle in input of the device (so that the device itself will align its angle to the angle of the bars in-game). It's more or less the opposite of a steering wheel (that sends an angle to GPB and receives in input a force signal).

I doubt that's going to work, really. Giving it a proper torque is one thing, but the handlebars themselves should assume proper position all the time too. Then again, I bet that even at high speed the bars yield even if a tiny bit into the side of pushing by the rider, so it's not just the torque.

Quote
That's just basic safety: as soon as an electrical motor is strong enough, one has to take safety into account.

I'd think the same, but still some people manage to get traumatized.

QuoteA used logitech will do for start. As said I'm not into car sims, so I'd put money in a wheel only if I find it extremely good with GPB.
But at the moment I think that a system like ddcc's one is likely to be better overall, so I would eventually decide to go for that.

Still, using almost proper bike controls with the default steering feels just wrong... I'd rather stick to a joypad in that case.

QuoteAnyway, if I want something close to the real thing, I can just pick up the keys and take my bike :P

That's true :) But sims have things on offer real life does not...

Quote
DST with joystick = masochism.

Klax, the only guy that managed to do a lap with it, had some very personal reasons to pick up this as a personal challenge. Without going into details, he was prevented to ride on a real bike so he wanted to succeed with DST. As far as I know he's no longer on the forum.  But Klax, if you read this, best wishes man !

From what I can remember, it was worse than masochism :) But Klax is not the only one who managed to do a lap with it :P As I said, I did that before him, but the times were far from what he showed in his Cadwell Park video. It was the most difficult thing I ever done and it still is. And this is compared to virtual helicopter flying (and especially hovering/slingloading).
But because of it being that frustrating, I had to quit after managing to make two laps in a row. And it seems like I missed Klax by a year or so. If I stayed long enough for him to start this thread, I'd have a better motivation for sure. And yes, he did a great job. Especially with the speed. As someone who managed to string a couple of laps at that track at that time, I'm simply stunned with his results, for I know how much work it was taking to simply complete the course. Well, maybe having a joypad and being able to change the rider lean freely is a better combo than the joystick I had at the time, but it still was a huge amount of work.

Quote
You should be able to take any corner without any rider lean. Rider lean can't be the problem here.

That's the easiest way. But not the fastest, I'm sure. And Keith Code would agree with me, or rather I would with him :) So, I really want to learn to put that knee down on the virtual tarmac. So far it's easier to scrape the fairing over the tarmac without rider lean than lean the bike enough with the leaned over rider to force the knee-pad make the scraping sound instead.

QuoteProbably hairpins are tough because they are very low speed and at very low speed the bike steering behaviour is very different from high speed.
With the default steering, hairpins are not harder than the rest.
Sloped turns are, unfortunately, a known issue though.

Well, shouldn't we figure out why there's a difference in the default mode then? That's why I think a hybrid mode might prove more popular than either of these.
I think something was done about sloped turns not so long ago. One would expect the situation to continue improving.

Quote
If you find the the experience of GPB and Ride2 very close, then yes, you should probably buy Ride2  ;D

I can't find that yet, since I haven't tried either (apart from riding GPB until DST made its entrance), but I suspect Ride 2's content will make a good compromise over GPB's physics. If I'd be forced to stick to the default mode, that is :) For me it's the direct steering modes that make the difference. No direct steering = no point in virtual riding.

I can't find that yet, since I haven't tried either (apart from riding GPB until DST made its entrance), but I suspect Ride 2's content will make a good compromise over GPB's physics. If I'd be forced to stick to the default mode, that is :) For me it's the direct steering modes that make the difference. No direct steering = no point in virtual riding
[/quote]

I agree on that one, have you tried ride 1? There is a free demo of ride 1 on steam but id suggest you test it with a grain of salt as ride 2 is an improvement over ride 1 controlls are identical though.
I myself tryet ride 1 atm craving for a bike sim, then i found this GP-Bikes and was so happy i finally find something that matches i guess you could call my describtion of what i seek.
Atm im eager to throw some money for a licence but im flat atm which is quite frustating :( alas I'm happy to see there is an unlimited time demo of this game :D

Quote from: Become dust on April 05, 2017, 08:10:45 PMAha. I am pretty new so all my feedback could be just absolute noncense but yeah there is alot i still need to learn and understand yet im very happy about discovering this game

Actually, your feedback might help a lot exactly because you only started learning to ride GPB in these modes. There might be something we overlooked or simply forgotten. And I think any feedback is valuable. After all, these modes are extremely unpopular, and I think it's undeservingly so.

Quote from: HornetMaX on April 05, 2017, 08:20:19 PM
Uh that's strange as Direct Lean has nothing to do with rider lean and, if I recall correctly (maybe PiBoSo can confirm) when you use DST/DSA, Direct Lean has no effect at all.

The problem with the G27 (or at least with the unit I have) is that it doesn't exhibit a lot of precision. And while you are leaned over off the bike, you need highly precise (and sometimes quick) movements to not drop the bike. For example, when you are approaching a camber change, that stuff can make you fall right away if you are not careful.
What Direct Lean does, it dampens the steering oscillations (and I hope also helps with the natural self-righting due to the steering geometry). And thanks to the FFB, on a bumpy enough track they can get in the way.
I also tried smoothing on the lean axis, but I felt that DL does this better for me.

Quote from: Become dust on April 05, 2017, 09:00:26 PM
I agree on that one, have you tried ride 1? There is a free demo of ride 1 on steam but id suggest you test it with a grain of salt as ride 2 is an improvement over ride 1 controlls are identical though.
I myself tryet ride 1 atm craving for a bike sim, then i found this GP-Bikes and was so happy i finally find something that matches i guess you could call my describtion of what i seek.
Atm im eager to throw some money for a licence but im flat atm which is quite frustating :( alas I'm happy to see there is an unlimited time demo of this game :D

No, I haven't tried the demo. If anything, I might want to try a Ride 2 demo if there was one :) But without direct steering I don't think I'd waste my money on something like that... On the other hand, if I didn't have the license and GP Bikes didn't have the direct steering modes, I really doubt I would buy it at all. Probably I would simply switch to car/flight sims or some other stuff.

Good to know you like the sim so far :) And if you are even a little bit into cars, after you bought the license, I'm sure you will also like WRS that comes as a bonus with the GPB license :) It used to be nothing special, but now it's a very solid car sim, at least physics-wise.

I will indeed love the added car sim of the license not only do i like sim game with realistic vehicles. I build them in an amazing virtual dreamland i call Garry's mod, where the only limit is your imagination on the Ram limit of the decade old game, ive build cars planes helicopters(not perfect or amazing by any means) but my proudest creation is a humble sailboat, as far as im aware not many if any have succesfully built a fully functional and effective sailboat, quick tour: sail type ketch for and aft sinhle mast sail with stormsails and also a realistic flag :3 sadly i did not save the thing but because ive spend so many hours of it i can proudly tell you, i can build that fucker from ground using my memory! (Reason behind enthersizing memory is that i suck at remembering shit) from the keel and up!! I am able to build all the functioning mechanics! (It is not as complicated as it sounds but looks cool) went abit of corse there :D

Regarding the DSA and DST testing i shall continue attempt my experiments! And hopefully someday i will get a license. That buying button is mocking me!!! AAAHh!!

Quote from: passerBy on April 05, 2017, 08:51:14 PM

Quote
In principle, DST is the real deal, but it needs a very special input device: one that sends out a torque to GPB and receives and angle in input of the device (so that the device itself will align its angle to the angle of the bars in-game). It's more or less the opposite of a steering wheel (that sends an angle to GPB and receives in input a force signal).

I doubt that's going to work, really. Giving it a proper torque is one thing, but the handlebars themselves should assume proper position all the time too. Then again, I bet that even at high speed the bars yield even if a tiny bit into the side of pushing by the rider, so it's not just the torque.

The handlebars will assume proper position because GPB will dictate the position and a control loop will enforce the position.
You will put a torque on the bars to make them move and your torque will be fed to GPB that in turn will "allow" them to move.
The control loop in this setup is the analog of the control loop you have in DSA (where you input the angle and GPB computes the torque to apply to the virtual bars).

But if you insist on saying that all this is not about the torque I can't keep on discussing.

Quote from: passerBy on April 05, 2017, 09:13:13 PM

Quote from: HornetMaX on April 05, 2017, 08:20:19 PM
Uh that's strange as Direct Lean has nothing to do with rider lean and, if I recall correctly (maybe PiBoSo can confirm) when you use DST/DSA, Direct Lean has no effect at all.

The problem with the G27 (or at least with the unit I have) is that it doesn't exhibit a lot of precision. And while you are leaned over off the bike, you need highly precise (and sometimes quick) movements to not drop the bike. For example, when you are approaching a camber change, that stuff can make you fall right away if you are not careful.
What Direct Lean does, it dampens the steering oscillations (and I hope also helps with the natural self-righting due to the steering geometry). And thanks to the FFB, on a bumpy enough track they can get in the way.
I also tried smoothing on the lean axis, but I felt that DL does this better for me.

You didn't get my point: when you use DST or DSA, I think the Direct Lean setting has absolutely no influence, it's bypassed.
It would be nice if PiBoSo could confirm, but in the meantime: http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=379.msg26565;topicseen#msg26565 (http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=379.msg26565;topicseen#msg26565)

Quote from: Become dust on April 05, 2017, 09:25:26 PM
I will indeed love the added car sim of the license not only do i like sim game with realistic vehicles. I build them in an amazing virtual dreamland i call Garry's mod, where the only limit is your imagination on the Ram limit of the decade old game, ive build cars planes helicopters(not perfect or amazing by any means) but my proudest creation is a humble sailboat, as far as im aware not many if any have succesfully built a fully functional and effective sailboat, quick tour: sail type ketch for and aft sinhle mast sail with stormsails and also a realistic flag :3 sadly i did not save the thing but because ive spend so many hours of it i can proudly tell you, i can build that fucker from ground using my memory! (Reason behind enthersizing memory is that i suck at remembering shit) from the keel and up!! I am able to build all the functioning mechanics! (It is not as complicated as it sounds but looks cool) went abit of corse there :D

Well, I'm not sure how realistic things built in Garry's mod can get, but it's certainly great that you tried those experiments and succeeded :) However, in my opinion a serious purpose-built sim is always better, so if you haven't heard of it yet, try Sail Simulator 5 (they even have a demo). So far I haven't seen a better sailing sim, and I'm into sailing too :) Ahoy! ;)

QuoteRegarding the DSA and DST testing i shall continue attempt my experiments! And hopefully someday i will get a license. That buying button is mocking me!!! AAAHh!!

Hehe, that button was mocking me since the early alphas too :) Not sure what made me finally get it, but DST that followed after that made it even a better package... even though at the time it wasn't extremely usable :)

Quote from: passerBy on April 05, 2017, 10:13:04 PM

Quote from: Become dust on April 05, 2017, 09:25:26 PM
I will indeed love the added car sim of the license not only do i like sim game with realistic vehicles. I build them in an amazing virtual dreamland i call Garry's mod, where the only limit is your imagination on the Ram limit of the decade old game, ive build cars planes helicopters(not perfect or amazing by any means) but my proudest creation is a humble sailboat, as far as im aware not many if any have succesfully built a fully functional and effective sailboat, quick tour: sail type ketch for and aft sinhle mast sail with stormsails and also a realistic flag :3 sadly i did not save the thing but because ive spend so many hours of it i can proudly tell you, i can build that fucker from ground using my memory! (Reason behind enthersizing memory is that i suck at remembering shit) from the keel and up!! I am able to build all the functioning mechanics! (It is not as complicated as it sounds but looks cool) went abit of corse there :D

Well, I'm not sure how realistic things built in Garry's mod can get, but it's certainly great that you tried those experiments and succeeded :) However, in my opinion a serious purpose-built sim is always better, so if you haven't heard of it yet, try Sail Simulator 5 (they even have a demo). So far I haven't seen a better sailing sim, and I'm into sailing too :) Ahoy! ;)

QuoteRegarding the DSA and DST testing i shall continue attempt my experiments! And hopefully someday i will get a license. That buying button is mocking me!!! AAAHh!!

Hehe, that button was mocking me since the early alphas too :) Not sure what made me finally get it, but DST that followed after that made it even a better package... even though at the time it wasn't extremely usable :)

heheh Garry's mod is not very realistic but it does follow basic principles to an extent but it is not the realism that is rewarding but to see your own creation in action :) which is why i love Garry's mod

Quote from: HornetMaX on April 05, 2017, 10:03:26 PM
The handlebars will assume proper position because GPB will dictate the position and a control loop will enforce the position.
You will put a torque on the bars to make them move and your torque will be fed to GPB that in turn will "allow" them to move.
The control loop in this setup is the analog of the control loop you have in DSA (where you input the angle and GPB computes the torque to apply to the virtual bars).

If you put it like that, that might work... provided, the controller has means to enforce the position. From what I can tell, most of the wheels (all of them?) are reactive. This is something not exactly suitable for a torque-based controller.
How about using a linear motor(s) pulling/pushing on an inverted "T" (the horizontal part is the bars), while the pivotal main axis is equipped with some friction braking mechanism also commanded by the FFB?

QuoteBut if you insist on saying that all this is not about the torque I can't keep on discussing.

I think I said it's both?

Quote
You didn't get my point: when you use DST or DSA, I think the Direct Lean setting has absolutely no influence, it's bypassed.

I thought so too... Until I actually tried both 0 and 100% DL and started turning the wheel while standstill. The virtual bars were lagging behind the wheel more noticeably at DL 100.

QuoteIt would be nice if PiBoSo could confirm, but in the meantime: http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=379.msg26565;topicseen#msg26565 (http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=379.msg26565;topicseen#msg26565)

It's dated by 2015. Something might have changed since then. But I will double check tomorrow, just in case.

Quote from: Become dust on April 05, 2017, 10:22:13 PM
heheh Garry's mod is not very realistic but it does follow basic principles to an extent but it is not the realism that is rewarding but to see your own creation in action :) which is why i love Garry's mod

Fair enough :) Still, give that sim demo a try. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised :)

Quote from: passerBy on April 05, 2017, 10:31:34 PM

Quote from: Become dust on April 05, 2017, 10:22:13 PM
heheh Garry's mod is not very realistic but it does follow basic principles to an extent but it is not the realism that is rewarding but to see your own creation in action :) which is why i love Garry's mod

Fair enough :) Still, give that sim demo a try. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised :)

will do

Quote from: passerBy on April 05, 2017, 10:28:54 PM

Quote from: HornetMaX on April 05, 2017, 10:03:26 PM
The handlebars will assume proper position because GPB will dictate the position and a control loop will enforce the position.
You will put a torque on the bars to make them move and your torque will be fed to GPB that in turn will "allow" them to move.
The control loop in this setup is the analog of the control loop you have in DSA (where you input the angle and GPB computes the torque to apply to the virtual bars).

If you put it like that, that might work... provided, the controller has means to enforce the position. From what I can tell, most of the wheels (all of them?) are reactive. This is something not exactly suitable for a torque-based controller.

That's why I said we have no suitable input device for DST. A usual driving wheel won't work fine with DST, but may eventually work with DSA.

Quote from: HornetMaX on April 05, 2017, 10:55:51 PM
That's why I said we have no suitable input device for DST. A usual driving wheel won't work fine with DST, but may eventually work with DSA.

Yet you ignored my proposal :) Again, what we are currently lacking in FFB controllers in general is the simulated resistance to displacement done right. What does a G27 do to enforce soft-lock, for example? It checks whether the current displacement goes past the limits, then "opens up" the motor against your effort until the wheel is back within the limits, which, among other things, can lead to some overshooting past the mark. An awful design, if you ask me... Now imagine the same wheel having a disk on the axis... and some brake pads/calipers, ready to hug the disk. Now once the wheel is turned to the limits, the brakes engage, and we have a problem, Houston :) But at least now the wheel is fixed in place. If we also have torque sensors on the same wheel, they could help unlock it once the sensors are positive you are trying to turn the wheel in the opposite direction. This is the kind of resistance control I was talking about. Except, for the bars it should probably be metal on metal and engaging the shaft itself rather than a disk with pads.

Why linear motors for the actual feedback? I'd assume this would make for a cheaper "direct drive wheel". For handlebars we don't need a lot of rotational span, but we do need quicker response. Therefore, I feel this kind of a drive is more suitable. Maybe not as much a motor, as a couple of solenoids or something would do.

I was wondering..... how advanced are the tire mechanics in this sim? I know type and pressure can be changed but what else is there to tires?

Quote from: passerBy on April 05, 2017, 11:24:41 PM

Quote from: HornetMaX on April 05, 2017, 10:55:51 PM
That's why I said we have no suitable input device for DST. A usual driving wheel won't work fine with DST, but may eventually work with DSA.

Yet you ignored my proposal :) Again, what we are currently lacking in FFB controllers in general is the simulated resistance to displacement done right. What does a G27 do to enforce soft-lock, for example? It checks whether the current displacement goes past the limits, then "opens up" the motor against your effort until the wheel is back within the limits, which, among other things, can lead to some overshooting past the mark. An awful design, if you ask me... Now imagine the same wheel having a disk on the axis... and some brake pads/calipers, ready to hug the disk. Now once the wheel is turned to the limits, the brakes engage, and we have a problem, Houston :) But at least now the wheel is fixed in place. If we also have torque sensors on the same wheel, they could help unlock it once the sensors are positive you are trying to turn the wheel in the opposite direction. This is the kind of resistance control I was talking about. Except, for the bars it should probably be metal on metal and engaging the shaft itself rather than a disk with pads.

Why linear motors for the actual feedback? I'd assume this would make for a cheaper "direct drive wheel". For handlebars we don't need a lot of rotational span, but we do need quicker response. Therefore, I feel this kind of a drive is more suitable. Maybe not as much a motor, as a couple of solenoids or something would do.

I ignored it for a reason  :D  but ad you asked for it, here it is (just my opinion of course): the idea of using linear motors for a naturally rotating device sounds bad to me.
Just like the one of a brake behind the wheel (good luck in calibrating the actual torque such a brake would give in any situation, including wear of the disc/pads).
Obviously you would still need a torque actuator (a motor) as the brake cannot generate a torque by itself.

Lock/soft-lock is not the issue here: I'm firstly concerned with what happens when you stay well inside the lock-to-lock range (which for race track bikes is essentially always the case).

Quote from: Become dust on April 06, 2017, 12:31:06 AM
I was wondering..... how advanced are the tire mechanics in this sim? I know type and pressure can be changed but what else is there to tires?

Tyres are described with a fairly accurate model used extensively in the industry.
There are a lot of parameters but they are only needed to model a tyre: in the garage you can only choose a tyre compound and set the pressure, just like in real life (OK, if we want to be picky, in real life you can pick the temperature of the tyre warmers, minor detail for me).

Quote from: HornetMaX on April 06, 2017, 06:50:23 AM

Quote from: passerBy on April 05, 2017, 11:24:41 PM

Quote from: HornetMaX on April 05, 2017, 10:55:51 PM
That's why I said we have no suitable input device for DST. A usual driving wheel won't work fine with DST, but may eventually work with DSA.

Yet you ignored my proposal :) Again, what we are currently lacking in FFB controllers in general is the simulated resistance to displacement done right. What does a G27 do to enforce soft-lock, for example? It checks whether the current displacement goes past the limits, then "opens up" the motor against your effort until the wheel is back within the limits, which, among other things, can lead to some overshooting past the mark. An awful design, if you ask me... Now imagine the same wheel having a disk on the axis... and some brake pads/calipers, ready to hug the disk. Now once the wheel is turned to the limits, the brakes engage, and we have a problem, Houston :) But at least now the wheel is fixed in place. If we also have torque sensors on the same wheel, they could help unlock it once the sensors are positive you are trying to turn the wheel in the opposite direction. This is the kind of resistance control I was talking about. Except, for the bars it should probably be metal on metal and engaging the shaft itself rather than a disk with pads.

Why linear motors for the actual feedback? I'd assume this would make for a cheaper "direct drive wheel". For handlebars we don't need a lot of rotational span, but we do need quicker response. Therefore, I feel this kind of a drive is more suitable. Maybe not as much a motor, as a couple of solenoids or something would do.

I ignored it for a reason  :D  but ad you asked for it, here it is (just my opinion of course): the idea of using linear motors for a naturally rotating device sounds bad to me.
Just like the one of a brake behind the wheel (good luck in calibrating the actual torque such a brake would give in any situation, including wear of the disc/pads).
Obviously you would still need a torque actuator (a motor) as the brake cannot generate a torque by itself.

Lock/soft-lock is not the issue here: I'm firstly concerned with what happens when you stay well inside the lock-to-lock range (which for race track bikes is essentially always the case).

Quote from: Become dust on April 06, 2017, 12:31:06 AM
I was wondering..... how advanced are the tire mechanics in this sim? I know type and pressure can be changed but what else is there to tires?

Tyres are described with a fairly accurate model used extensively in the industry.
There are a lot of parameters but they are only needed to model a tyre: in the garage you can only choose a tyre compound and set the pressure, just like in real life (OK, if we want to be picky, in real life you can pick the temperature of the tyre warmers, minor detail for me).

i see you mentioned temperature. what about temperature change on the track? also. i got a licence :3 YEY

Quote from: HornetMaX on April 06, 2017, 06:50:23 AM
I ignored it for a reason  :D  but ad you asked for it, here it is (just my opinion of course): the idea of using linear motors for a naturally rotating device sounds bad to me.
Just like the one of a brake behind the wheel (good luck in calibrating the actual torque such a brake would give in any situation, including wear of the disc/pads).
Obviously you would still need a torque actuator (a motor) as the brake cannot generate a torque by itself.

I just think it would make it much easier to achieve high torque and high turn rates (yes, they are the highest near the 0 angle position, but nothing that cannot be solved with a good controller :) also, the connecting rods don't have to be put on the same line), while retaining good angular resolution (translated to the armatures linear position).

Well, if it's two stainless steel tube halves engaging the shaft of the controller, using yet another electrical magnet, I don't think both the calibration and the wear present that much of an issue.

The bottom line is, I'm sure such a device can be manufactured more easily and much cheaper than something based on an industrial servo-motor.

QuoteLock/soft-lock is not the issue here: I'm firstly concerned with what happens when you stay well inside the lock-to-lock range (which for race track bikes is essentially always the case).

Nevermind soft-lock :) Since this kind of a controller will be useful almost exclusively for bikes, we can make do with only hard stops. Sturdy enough hard stops, that is :)

By the way, Max. If you haven't tried to use your headtracker for rider lean yet, give it a try :) With the angular direct steering it's simply a game changer, but I expect it to help a lot even with the default steering.

Quote from: Become dust on April 06, 2017, 12:31:06 AMi got a licence :3 YEY

Congrats! :) So, how do you like the difference between the 125 and some proper bikes? :)
Honestly, I have no idea how Piboso is expecting to sell much with that 125... It's just bad. I gave it a go for a bit, and I hated every second of it. The 250 in the alphas was much better.

Quote from: passerBy on April 06, 2017, 05:20:18 PM
By the way, Max. If you haven't tried to use your headtracker for rider lean yet, give it a try :) With the angular direct steering it's simply a game changer, but I expect it to help a lot even with the default steering.

Lol, I just posted in the other thread that I can give this a try.

But to be honest, personally I have no major trouble with auto (or manual via joypad) rider lean: the auto fwd/back is pretty bad (but I think it can be improved) and the left/right doesn't bring a lot, at least with the standard steering. Once again, it's not manual rider lean that will make DST/DSA any easier.

Quote from: HornetMaX on April 06, 2017, 06:55:25 PM
Lol, I just posted in the other thread that I can give this a try.

I just noticed that and answered :)

QuoteBut to be honest, personally I have no major trouble with auto (or manual via joypad) rider lean: the auto fwd/back is pretty bad (but I think it can be improved) and the left/right doesn't bring a lot, at least with the standard steering. Once again, it's not manual rider lean that will make DST/DSA any easier.

Wrong :) The effect is huge. I'm not sure why, but it helps tons with the angular direct steering. It feels like I'm actually balancing the bike out myself. And that's even without any calibration or other adjustments.
I don't think it will help you that much though, since you have EDTracker... But I already shared a couple of ideas regarding this in the other thread :)

After trying the headleaning, I'm sure that having a separate thumbstick for controlling the rider lean helped Klax with his direct steering a lot.

Another thing. Direct Lean seem to not have any effect on the bars in the direct steering mode, after all. I seem to have some input lag in both cases.

Quote from: passerBy on April 06, 2017, 07:22:55 PM

QuoteBut to be honest, personally I have no major trouble with auto (or manual via joypad) rider lean: the auto fwd/back is pretty bad (but I think it can be improved) and the left/right doesn't bring a lot, at least with the standard steering. Once again, it's not manual rider lean that will make DST/DSA any easier.

Wrong :) The effect is huge. I'm not sure why, but it helps tons with the angular direct steering. It feels like I'm actually balancing the bike out myself. And that's even without any calibration or other adjustments.
I don't think it will help you that much though, since you have EDTracker... But I already shared a couple of ideas regarding this in the other thread :)

After trying the headleaning, I'm sure that having a separate thumbstick for controlling the rider lean helped Klax with his direct steering a lot.

But the point is: it shouldn't.
On a real bike you can easily run a lap on any track at tourist pace without any rider lean. I don't see why in GPB rider lean should be such a huge help.
It should make a difference only when you're really really pushing hard, while you seem to say that it makes a huge differenbce in terms of how easy it is top ride the bike at all.

Quote from: passerBy on April 06, 2017, 07:22:55 PM
Another thing. Direct Lean seem to not have any effect on the bars in the direct steering mode, after all. I seem to have some input lag in both cases.

Good, as expected :)
If I recall correctly, we used to have some weird behaviour with DST/DSA and steering with the bike standing still.

Quote from: Become dust on April 05, 2017, 07:27:22 PM
DST is quite difficult but once you get the hand of it its pretty fun! My best laptime without crashing is 3min 2 seconds

Today I decided to give the demo configuration a try while using the headtracker to control the rider lean. Surprisingly enough, I did a better lap on the 125 than on the BES WSBK Yamaha: 2 minutes 3 seconds compared to 2:05.
I gave each around 4 or so laps and wasn't trying too hard, since a lap record wasn't a priority for me (and I'm not the biggest of fans of Phillip Island), but all in all I'd say the angular steering mode is more than adequate for riding.

That 125 cc bike is the worst thing I've even ridden, to be honest. Almost no feedback, no feel... it tries to capsize on every opportunity too. But with DS2 and headtracking rider lean it's still manageable. The biggest problem is that I don't see much of the bike in the 1st cam.

Quote from: HornetMaX on April 06, 2017, 08:15:02 PM
But the point is: it shouldn't.
On a real bike you can easily run a lap on any track at tourist pace without any rider lean. I don't see why in GPB rider lean should be such a huge help.

At tourist pace (as I perceive it) I can ride on a typical track without crashing using DS2 (who knows what else there's to it besides the angle :P) with no rider lean input pretty easily. The only things that can complicate this are sloped tight turns. "Victoria" has two particular corners that are pretty hard to negotiate though, but at a tourist pace they are not that hard.

QuoteIt should make a difference only when you're really really pushing hard, while you seem to say that it makes a huge differenbce in terms of how easy it is top ride the bike at all.

Of course, a bit over 2 minutes is not what one could call "pushing hard" at Phillip Island, but leaning into corners still made a lot of difference for me. I attribute this mostly to that it feels more natural to ride this way. I hope you'll get a wheel soon, Max, and see for yourself. Except you don't have a translational tracker yet, but I guess you'll think of something.

Quote
If I recall correctly, we used to have some weird behaviour with DST/DSA and steering with the bike standing still.

Not sure. I only tried DS1 prior to the second mode was introduced, then picked GPB again after it hit beta 5 or so, I think. Maybe beta 4... So, maybe I missed something.
The old DS1 implementation used to have the bars drop to a side and it was impossible to keep them straight at a standstill (because you can do only as much using solely the torque input), which was extremely annoying and I asked Piboso if it was possible to make direct steering and default steering switching between one another with a press of a button, but if I remember correctly, he told me that it wasn't.
I heard that now this mode at least allows to have the bars lined up straight before getting going, which is definitely a plus :) If I would use DS1, which I don't :)

I loove the bigger bikes more mass means i can really push the bike to its limits :D soon enough i will beat my laptime record! Funny enough i prefer the 500cc or the 1000cc but that might just be the fact thst im so used to a "slow bike" like the 125 and yes, it is practically crap, with dst or dsa i struggle just to keep the bike upright, i feel like it would be cool if we could create a system that self rights when controlls are in neutrual much like with the default steering, but that issue is not apparent with the bigger bikes, luckily. 125 as a demo bike? Its like if you attrmpted to create a forza 6 demo and the only car you can drive in is a fucking honda civic. One thing is for sure this sim/game has potential, the question is just how we can uterlize it. It does reminds me of this great game called Rawbots, but the devs stopped working on it and closed the website, ive bought a licence but because they've closed the website i can't download the game :( rawbots is a robot contruction game where you are in a sandbox and you can build anything you want, every mechanicle part is programmable and the way you program things is very easy to learn!!! Much like Garry's mod i guess, i once built a B2 stealth bomber in that game, so laggy xD

Quote from: Become dust on April 06, 2017, 10:25:23 PM
I loove the bigger bikes more mass means i can really push the bike to its limits :D soon enough i will beat my laptime record! Funny enough i prefer the 500cc or the 1000cc but that might just be the fact thst im so used to a "slow bike" like the 125 and yes, it is practically crap, with dst or dsa i struggle just to keep the bike upright, i feel like it would be cool if we could create a system that self rights when controlls are in neutrual much like with the default steering, but that issue is not apparent with the bigger bikes, luckily. 125 as a demo bike? Its like if you attrmpted to create a forza 6 demo and the only car you can drive in is a fucking honda civic. One thing is for sure this sim/game has potential, the question is just how we can uterlize it. It does reminds me of this great game called Rawbots, but the devs stopped working on it and closed the website, ive bought a licence but because they've closed the website i can't download the game :( rawbots is a robot contruction game where you are in a sandbox and you can build anything you want, every mechanicle part is programmable and the way you program things is very easy to learn!!! Much like Garry's mod i guess, i once built a B2 stealth bomber in that game, so laggy xD

Actually, they do self-right as they are. That's especially noticeable at slow speeds... I have a feeling your inverted FFB acts indeed inverted now :) What kind of a wheel do you use?
Phillip Island might not be the best choice to start with learning direct steering. Try getting Grobnik -- the thing is wide as a bus is long and doesn't have tight bends. It still has corners that can challenge you, as well as bankings at some places, but all in all the track is good for this kind of riding. And it also looks probably the best compared to the rest of GPB tracks :)

Quote from: passerBy on April 07, 2017, 01:35:18 AM

Quote from: Become dust on April 06, 2017, 10:25:23 PM
I loove the bigger bikes more mass means i can really push the bike to its limits :D soon enough i will beat my laptime record! Funny enough i prefer the 500cc or the 1000cc but that might just be the fact thst im so used to a "slow bike" like the 125 and yes, it is practically crap, with dst or dsa i struggle just to keep the bike upright, i feel like it would be cool if we could create a system that self rights when controlls are in neutrual much like with the default steering, but that issue is not apparent with the bigger bikes, luckily. 125 as a demo bike? Its like if you attrmpted to create a forza 6 demo and the only car you can drive in is a fucking honda civic. One thing is for sure this sim/game has potential, the question is just how we can uterlize it. It does reminds me of this great game called Rawbots, but the devs stopped working on it and closed the website, ive bought a licence but because they've closed the website i can't download the game :( rawbots is a robot contruction game where you are in a sandbox and you can build anything you want, every mechanicle part is programmable and the way you program things is very easy to learn!!! Much like Garry's mod i guess, i once built a B2 stealth bomber in that game, so laggy xD

Actually, they do self-right as they are. That's especially noticeable at slow speeds... I have a feeling your inverted FFB acts indeed inverted now :) What kind of a wheel do you use?
Phillip Island might not be the best choice to start with learning direct steering. Try getting Grobnik -- the thing is wide as a bus is long and doesn't have tight bends. It still has corners that can challenge you, as well as bankings at some places, but all in all the track is good for this kind of riding. And it also looks probably the best compared to the rest of GPB tracks :)

I do notice it but i guess i just formulated it wrongly, and it does work correctly just gotta get used to the speed now xD the speed... fucking love how fast you can go im just so gratefull that im able to get a license :3 i havent tried the other things you can acces with license i do remember something about cars.... not sure though. But yeah im loving it, i can really get that knee down without fear of loosing controll!! But still im very inconsistent and still learning how to use DST, ive noticed it is alot harder to do a front flip with the bigger bikes, the 125 you just had to like break 1-2% too much and it flips, just struggled with everything on that bike :/ i feel like it has too much grip but i don't know how that would function specifically if that makes sense. Since ive gotten the licence ive decided i would attempt and leatn how to ride the bikes with a clutch as of today i'm hopeless when it comes to clutches i just can't make it function propperly, put me in a drift sim and i will do fine but races, oh man.... the engine brakes are just merciless when i shift down xD!!!
 

Quote from: Become dust on April 07, 2017, 01:48:24 AM
I do notice it but i guess i just formulated it wrongly, and it does work correctly just gotta get used to the speed now xD the speed... fucking love how fast you can go im just so gratefull that im able to get a license :3 i havent tried the other things you can acces with license i do remember something about cars.... not sure though.

That was World Racing Series :) You can get it from here: http://www.worldracingseries.net/?page=downloads Just use the same license you used for GPB. If you like drifting, you'are going to like that "Tandridge" car for sure :)

QuoteBut yeah im loving it, i can really get that knee down without fear of loosing controll!!

By getting the knee down, do you mean actually putting it on tarmac until you hear the scraping sound, all the while in the direct steering mode? What bike?

QuoteBut still im very inconsistent and still learning how to use DST, ive noticed it is alot harder to do a front flip with the bigger bikes, the 125 you just had to like break 1-2% too much and it flips, just struggled with everything on that bike :/ i feel like it has too much grip but i don't know how that would function specifically if that makes sense. Since ive gotten the licence ive decided i would attempt and leatn how to ride the bikes with a clutch as of today i'm hopeless when it comes to clutches i just can't make it function propperly, put me in a drift sim and i will do fine but races, oh man.... the engine brakes are just merciless when i shift down xD!!!

Front flip? You mean a stoppie? :) Flips per se are not hard to do (you only need to lean forward and apply some front brake for that :) ), it's the balancing act that is complicated :) Don't tell me you can do a stoppie without falling too :) I don't know about you, but in my book being able to put the knee down to tarmac and being able to successfully perform a stoppie (all the while using a direct steering mode) is called a huge progress :)

Quote from: passerBy on April 07, 2017, 02:46:01 AM

Quote from: Become dust on April 07, 2017, 01:48:24 AM
I do notice it but i guess i just formulated it wrongly, and it does work correctly just gotta get used to the speed now xD the speed... fucking love how fast you can go im just so gratefull that im able to get a license :3 i havent tried the other things you can acces with license i do remember something about cars.... not sure though.

That was World Racing Series :) You can get it from here: http://www.worldracingseries.net/?page=downloads Just use the same license you used for GPB. If you like drifting, you'are going to like that "Tandridge" car for sure :)

QuoteBut yeah im loving it, i can really get that knee down without fear of loosing controll!!

By getting the knee down, do you mean actually putting it on tarmac until you hear the scraping sound, all the while in the direct steering mode? What bike?

QuoteBut still im very inconsistent and still learning how to use DST, ive noticed it is alot harder to do a front flip with the bigger bikes, the 125 you just had to like break 1-2% too much and it flips, just struggled with everything on that bike :/ i feel like it has too much grip but i don't know how that would function specifically if that makes sense. Since ive gotten the licence ive decided i would attempt and leatn how to ride the bikes with a clutch as of today i'm hopeless when it comes to clutches i just can't make it function propperly, put me in a drift sim and i will do fine but races, oh man.... the engine brakes are just merciless when i shift down xD!!!

Front flip? You mean a stoppie? :) Flips per se are not hard to do (you only need to lean forward and apply some front brake for that :) ), it's the balancing act that is complicated :) Don't tell me you can do a stoppie without falling too :) I don't know about you, but in my book being able to put the knee down to tarmac and being able to successfully perform a stoppie (all the while using a direct steering mode) is called a huge progress :)

Why yes dat knee can get scraped! And by front flip a stoppie indeed, i allways flip the damn bike when i applied the brake force i asumed i needed, thus i struggle with stopping! As said before im inconsistent so by mentioning putting the knee down doesent allways end well, i do watch alot of replay and from what i can see the knee somehow acuates intriguingly if you learn the bike enough so the knee actually follows the surface of the track a really cool detail :) i use the modern riding style which looks to aid me in executing a sharp turn, but still with inconsistense! Im no Klax i guess you could say :P!

Well, under getting the knee down I mostly meant something closer to what Klax had demonstrated in his second Mallory Park video. Hitting the surface for a split second and surviving the outcome is not very useful, and that's something I can do too from time to time :) Going through the entire curve stably with the knee down is another matter altogether, and as we can see, even Klax couldn't do in a very reliable fashion.

This is something I'm planning to achieve at some point (after all, the latest 11th beta is more suited for this), but it will take a long time no doubt. After all, it would require bringing the lap times down (at Phillip Island) to whereabouts of 1:30 or at the very least 1:40.

That is correct even though it is a cool achievement to CONSISTANtly get the knee down it shouldn't be my prioity :) as you mantioned breaking is something i struggle with aswel but! I can finaly spend some time in this damn game as i bought at a time where my time was limited? Just got home from school so im looking forward to it!

Update on my licenst experience. BIKE SO FAST XD i can never really full throttle anything i underestimate my speed on every corner. Still learning new things with DST :D

Quote from: Become dust on April 07, 2017, 10:47:54 AM
That is correct even though it is a cool achievement to CONSISTANtly get the knee down it shouldn't be my prioity :) as you mantioned breaking is something i struggle with aswel but! I can finaly spend some time in this damn game as i bought at a time where my time was limited? Just got home from school so im looking forward to it!

Well, it's not simply something fancy-looking... Getting the knee down is also a good indication you are going through a bend at the best possible velocity/acceleration/turning rate.

Speaking of the Modern riding style, today I managed to more or less consistently get my elbow down :D Alas, so far only at the Funring. On a proper track it only happens to me at Mallory Park. Also very sporadically. Of course here I'm talking about getting the knee down, only managed to scrape the surface with the elbow once so far :)

Masochism, you say, Max? Now this is proper masochism ;D

http://www.youtube.com/v/cLsxplauheo

I used to ignore MXB completely, because it seemed totally impossible to handle in direct steering, but today, after an hour or so of practicing it started to come out :)

But first I had to spend a lot of time on tweaking the model settings in the tracker software. Without defining the pivot point exactly, it tends to introduce parasitic translations into the output when you rotate your head.

Quote from: passerBy on April 08, 2017, 12:25:57 PM
Masochism, you say, Max? Now this is proper masochism ;D

http://www.youtube.com/v/cLsxplauheo

I used to ignore MXB completely, because it seemed totally impossible to handle in direct steering, but today, after an hour or so of practicing it started to come out :)

But first I had to spend a lot of time on tweaking the model settings in the tracker software. Without defining the pivot point exactly, it tends to introduce parasitic translations into the output when you rotate your head.

oi! your video is private!

so late of today I've been having a new type of issue with cornering, my rear wheel as decided to start slipping, that is a cool discovery of what bikes can do in a corner, but the issue is not the slipping itself, the issue is the fact that the driver itself the AI is trying to keep control of that slipping by countersteering but then it overcorrects and have to turn the other way, all the way through a turn after I brake it does this oscillation until I fall because I attempt to reach peek bike angle. I doubt there is no way of fixing it but i just wanna let you know.

Quote from: Become dust on April 08, 2017, 02:48:34 PM
oi! your video is private!

Huh, I don't get YouTube policies... Weren't Klax' videos private too? Or were they unlisted? What's the point of private videos on YouTube then if you can't share them?
Changed it to unlisted now, but didn't get any notification about "the author might not want you to share this video", and so on :/ Whatever. Just wasn't something I thought was worth publishing on the channel.

Quote from: Become dust on April 08, 2017, 03:24:51 PM
so late of today I've been having a new type of issue with cornering, my rear wheel as decided to start slipping, that is a cool discovery of what bikes can do in a corner, but the issue is not the slipping itself, the issue is the fact that the driver itself the AI is trying to keep control of that slipping by countersteering but then it overcorrects and have to turn the other way, all the way through a turn after I brake it does this oscillation until I fall because I attempt to reach peek bike angle. I doubt there is no way of fixing it but i just wanna let you know.

Would be great if you provided a video or a part of the replay file too. That way it'd be more informative.
I have to say, some of the bike yaw oscillations in GPB appear quite exaggerated and improbable. Especially noticeable while braking hard from near top speeds.

Speaking of getting elbows down...

http://www.youtube.com/v/Fsr3K43dujQ

As I already mentioned, the wheel's precision leaves a lot to be desired while restricted to a closer to handlebars angle. The linearity curve helps with that.
This, however, was taken yesterday, before I tweaked the headtracking/leaning, so, that might add to the undesired movement. Just like the choppy FFB. I guess in DS1 w/o FFB one could do it more precisely (pure torque and all that), but I just can't see it being anywhere near as fun as DS2 :)

Quote from: passerBy on April 08, 2017, 05:51:14 PM
Speaking of getting elbows down...

http://www.youtube.com/v/Fsr3K43dujQ

As I already mentioned, the wheel's precision leaves a lot to be desired while restricted to a closer to handlebars angle. The linearity curve helps with that.
This, however, was taken yesterday, before I tweaked the headtracking/leaning, so, that might add to the undesired movement. Just like the choppy FFB. I guess in DS1 w/o FFB one could do it more precisely (pure torque and all that), but I just can't see it being anywhere near as fun as DS2 :)

I'd say it is all about compromise, depending what you can access, I got a controller and a PC, and that is just about it :/ I bet it would be fun but I can't access the equipment sadly so, DST 1 is lyfe when it comes to GP-bikes none the less im enjoying it

also, I'm unable to find the other "game modes/types/whatever you would call it, I'm kinda hopeless when it comes to seeking things on the internet, also IDK what they are actually called rip

im spamming this thread atm lol, i learned that i can't watch your videos on my ipad sorry!

Quote from: Become dust on April 09, 2017, 01:09:16 AM
I'd say it is all about compromise, depending what you can access, I got a controller and a PC, and that is just about it :/ I bet it would be fun but I can't access the equipment sadly so, DST 1 is lyfe when it comes to GP-bikes none the less im enjoying it

Well, from that you said it looked like you enjoy car sims about as much, and for them getting a wheel is pretty much the only option. Also, I think you mentioned you are still in school? Then the possibilities are just opening for you once you've landed yourself a job. Though a wheel might be still a pretty hefty investment, but out of all things I bought (not that it was a lot of them) so far, this one has probably the biggest fun to cost ratio :)

Also, I still think DS1 and a FFB-less controller might theoretically give you better precision and allow for more self-righting action on the bike's side. It's never advisable to hold on the handlebars for dear life, and I'm not sure if it's not the case in DS2. Sure, sometimes I can see the virtual bars and the wheel decoupled, but I still wonder for how much self-righting this particular controlling method allows.
I'm still sticking to DS2 though :) Even if I'll be falling more often with it, the immersion is worth the trouble big time :)

Quote from: Become dust on April 09, 2017, 01:12:57 AM
also, I'm unable to find the other "game modes/types/whatever you would call it, I'm kinda hopeless when it comes to seeking things on the internet, also IDK what they are actually called rip

Not sure what you mean by that, but if you are looking for something in particular, I think you could always ask about it either on the forum or ask me :)
Apart from direct steering and mode=1, GPB doesn't seem to have many other "undocumented features". At least those that would change the experience significantly.

Quote from: Become dust on April 09, 2017, 01:13:43 AM
im spamming this thread atm lol, i learned that i can't watch your videos on my ipad sorry!

Yes, I think we shouldn't derail the thread way too much :) As for the videos, I tried visiting the page anonymously, and wasn't able to play the private video, so you were right about it. I made them unlisted instead :)

so I still struggle with my braking going into corners at a higher speed, but! I am indeed attempting to improve it, I will sooner or later post a video to show you what I'm trying to explain :) but what I can show you is the bi-product of a "successful" recovery from an excessive breaking and turning when initiating a corner:

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=901833496

by that I mean I actually manage to stay on the track but I loose a lot of speed spending time trying to "regain control"

I never thought it was possible to actually "drift" with a superbike in this game much respect to be honest

I still struggle with optimum entry and turning but that is to be expected when you are not very experienced with this game :)

I will continue with asking you guys for feedback I hope you can help me "get gud"

Quote from: passerBy on April 09, 2017, 03:27:55 PM

Quote from: Become dust on April 09, 2017, 01:09:16 AM
I'd say it is all about compromise, depending what you can access, I got a controller and a PC, and that is just about it :/ I bet it would be fun but I can't access the equipment sadly so, DST 1 is lyfe when it comes to GP-bikes none the less im enjoying it

Well, from that you said it looked like you enjoy car sims about as much, and for them getting a wheel is pretty much the only option. Also, I think you mentioned you are still in school? Then the possibilities are just opening for you once you've landed yourself a job. Though a wheel might be still a pretty hefty investment, but out of all things I bought (not that it was a lot of them) so far, this one has probably the biggest fun to cost ratio :)

Also, I still think DS1 and a FFB-less controller might theoretically give you better precision and allow for more self-righting action on the bike's side. It's never advisable to hold on the handlebars for dear life, and I'm not sure if it's not the case in DS2. Sure, sometimes I can see the virtual bars and the wheel decoupled, but I still wonder for how much self-righting this particular controlling method allows.
I'm still sticking to DS2 though :) Even if I'll be falling more often with it, the immersion is worth the trouble big time :)

Quote from: Become dust on April 09, 2017, 01:12:57 AM
also, I'm unable to find the other "game modes/types/whatever you would call it, I'm kinda hopeless when it comes to seeking things on the internet, also IDK what they are actually called rip

Not sure what you mean by that, but if you are looking for something in particular, I think you could always ask about it either on the forum or ask me :)
Apart from direct steering and mode=1, GPB doesn't seem to have many other "undocumented features". At least those that would change the experience significantly.

Quote from: Become dust on April 09, 2017, 01:13:43 AM
im spamming this thread atm lol, i learned that i can't watch your videos on my ipad sorry!

Yes, I think we shouldn't derail the thread way too much :) As for the videos, I tried visiting the page anonymously, and wasn't able to play the private video, so you were right about it. I made them unlisted instead :)

what i ment was these: GPB / WRS / KRP / MXB what.... are they

Quote from: Become dust on April 09, 2017, 03:59:03 PM
so I still struggle with my braking going into corners at a higher speed, but! I am indeed attempting to improve it, I will sooner or later post a video to show you what I'm trying to explain :) but what I can show you is the bi-product of a "successful" recovery from an excessive breaking and turning when initiating a corner:

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=901833496

by that I mean I actually manage to stay on the track but I loose a lot of speed spending time trying to "regain control"

I never thought it was possible to actually "drift" with a superbike in this game much respect to be honest

I still struggle with optimum entry and turning but that is to be expected when you are not very experienced with this game :)

I will continue with asking you guys for feedback I hope you can help me "get gud"

Well, I had problems braking from high speeds too, for example. Having a separate analog axis for the rear brake could help, as could some suspension tweaks.
At the moment I can't return to neither GPB, nor MXB for some time, so my experimenting is postponed for now. Will still be around, though.

Quotewhat i ment was these: GPB / WRS / KRP / MXB what.... are they

Those are all titles by Piboso. He started with GP Bikes first (GPB), then felt like it didn't generate enough income, so he started also working on Kart Racing Pro (KRP) and World Racing Series (WRS, it shares the license with GPB). Later on he also decided to add a motocross sim to his lineup, called MX Bikes. The first video I showed is recorded in MXB. Might not look like much, but believe me, those things are considerably more hard to handle in direct steering modes than the track bikes in GPB. You can see for yourself: just dl the demo and enable either DS1 or DS2 the same way as you would do in GPB.

Quote from: passerBy on April 12, 2017, 06:27:18 PM

Quote from: Become dust on April 09, 2017, 03:59:03 PM
so I still struggle with my braking going into corners at a higher speed, but! I am indeed attempting to improve it, I will sooner or later post a video to show you what I'm trying to explain :) but what I can show you is the bi-product of a "successful" recovery from an excessive breaking and turning when initiating a corner:

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=901833496

by that I mean I actually manage to stay on the track but I loose a lot of speed spending time trying to "regain control"

I never thought it was possible to actually "drift" with a superbike in this game much respect to be honest

I still struggle with optimum entry and turning but that is to be expected when you are not very experienced with this game :)

I will continue with asking you guys for feedback I hope you can help me "get gud"

Well, I had problems braking from high speeds too, for example. Having a separate analog axis for the rear brake could help, as could some suspension tweaks.
At the moment I can't return to neither GPB, nor MXB for some time, so my experimenting is postponed for now. Will still be around, though.

Quotewhat i ment was these: GPB / WRS / KRP / MXB what.... are they

Those are all titles by Piboso. He started with GP Bikes first (GPB), then felt like it didn't generate enough income, so he started also working on Kart Racing Pro (KRP) and World Racing Series (WRS, it shares the license with GPB). Later on he also decided to add a motocross sim to his lineup, called MX Bikes. The first video I showed is recorded in MXB. Might not look like much, but believe me, those things are considerably more hard to handle in direct steering modes than the track bikes in GPB. You can see for yourself: just dl the demo and enable either DS1 or DS2 the same way as you would do in GPB.

where them downloads at tho

Quote from: Become dust on April 16, 2017, 08:07:56 PM
where them downloads at tho

MX Bikes (http://mx-bikes.com/?page=downloads), World Racing Series (http://www.worldracingseries.net/?page=downloads), Kart Racing Pro (http://www.kartracing-pro.com/?page=downloads). KRP is also planned to be released on Steam probably this year.

And back to direct steering...
Yesterday I did some DS1 testing on a joystick. Honestly, I think it's just incomparable. Now I'm surprised I could do those laps in this mode in the early betas back in the day. Yes, as a challenge this mode can beat many things out there, but it's not really all that fun in itself. That's why I quit mastering it four years ago, and that's most likely why Klax quit it too.
By the way, I have no idea why Piboso used positive values in his profile.ini example. For me it was closer to -5, -2 to make it work as it should.

DS2, on the other hand, is miles ahead of it. It's enjoyable even in MXB (though you'll have to work a lot in that sim to get it going). Yet it's still extremely rewarding.
Those who tried DS1 on a joypad and quit it right away thinking, "no way in hell!", should really give DS2 a try. Especially, if they happen to have an FFB wheel at their disposal.

Quote from: passerBy on April 17, 2017, 03:24:41 AM

Quote from: Become dust on April 16, 2017, 08:07:56 PM
where them downloads at tho

MX Bikes (http://mx-bikes.com/?page=downloads), World Racing Series (http://www.worldracingseries.net/?page=downloads), Kart Racing Pro (http://www.kartracing-pro.com/?page=downloads). KRP is also planned to be released on Steam probably this year.

And back to direct steering...
Yesterday I did some DS1 testing on a joystick. Honestly, I think it's just incomparable. Now I'm surprised I could do those laps in this mode in the early betas back in the day. Yes, as a challenge this mode can beat many things out there, but it's not really all that fun in itself. That's why I quit mastering it four years ago, and that's most likely why Klax quit it too.
By the way, I have no idea why Piboso used positive values in his profile.ini example. For me it was closer to -5, -2 to make it work as it should.

DS2, on the other hand, is miles ahead of it. It's enjoyable even in MXB (though you'll have to work a lot in that sim to get it going). Yet it's still extremely rewarding.
Those who tried DS1 on a joypad and quit it right away thinking, "no way in hell!", should really give DS2 a try. Especially, if they happen to have an FFB wheel at their disposal.

i guess

Quote from: Become dust on April 17, 2017, 03:09:24 PM

Quote from: passerBy on April 17, 2017, 03:24:41 AM

Quote from: Become dust on April 16, 2017, 08:07:56 PM
where them downloads at tho

MX Bikes (http://mx-bikes.com/?page=downloads), World Racing Series (http://www.worldracingseries.net/?page=downloads), Kart Racing Pro (http://www.kartracing-pro.com/?page=downloads). KRP is also planned to be released on Steam probably this year.

And back to direct steering...
Yesterday I did some DS1 testing on a joystick. Honestly, I think it's just incomparable. Now I'm surprised I could do those laps in this mode in the early betas back in the day. Yes, as a challenge this mode can beat many things out there, but it's not really all that fun in itself. That's why I quit mastering it four years ago, and that's most likely why Klax quit it too.
By the way, I have no idea why Piboso used positive values in his profile.ini example. For me it was closer to -5, -2 to make it work as it should.

DS2, on the other hand, is miles ahead of it. It's enjoyable even in MXB (though you'll have to work a lot in that sim to get it going). Yet it's still extremely rewarding.
Those who tried DS1 on a joypad and quit it right away thinking, "no way in hell!", should really give DS2 a try. Especially, if they happen to have an FFB wheel at their disposal.

i guess

can't deny it

Pondering on what I could do to improve the leaned-over stability, I found out that being lazy can ruin things. Here's one good example.

For GP Bikes I made a separate Logitech profile with the Degrees Of Rotation parameter set to the lowest value of 40. When the issue that forced it to 180 instead hit, I came up with a less than stellar workaround of calibrating my wheel to about the lock I wanted. Ended up with more degrees than 40, as it turned out. Then I figured reinstalling the drivers could help, and it did. I was back to 40 degrees. What I noticed right away is that it became harder to catch the bike.
What I did next is opening the .cfg file of a bike and looked for the actual steering values. Found there a value of 25. Since the Logitech software uses the full span, we need to multiply the number by two. Changed 40 to 50 in the profile, and the result was a much improved steering closer to the limits of the bike's lean angle. Also changed the DS line to directsteer_maxangle=25. All this allowed me to bring the linearity back to 100%.

Still, not everything was smooth enough. One of the problems here is that I can't use the headtracker at the moment, so I had to put the rider's lean back onto the wheel's buttons. So, while fully-leaned and hanging off, the chances of dropping the bike in a turn were still high. Another problem was braking efficiently: the front end would tend to wobble in most situations, forcing me to start the braking earlier and with very little force application.
Something is not right here, obviously. What exactly could be wrong? The suspension settings! When it comes to cars, I rarely fiddle with any settings whatsoever, preferring to rather adapt myself to each car instead. Turns out, it's pretty much a must do thing when it comes to bikes. You HAVE to tweak it to your liking.
So, if the bike seems to be very unstable (especially on a relatively bumpy track or road), it makes sense to try softening the springs and shocks out considerably and start working from there. A little bit of tweaking around can make a world of difference. Now I can put that knee on the tarmac much more often without facing the inevitable.

I wouldn't be surprised if a setup made for direct steering would work even better for the default steering. The autopilot probably has a hard time compensating for bad setups, but to the "commander" it wouldn't be obvious due to the lack of feedback.

Quote from: passerBy on April 12, 2017, 06:27:18 PM
Those are all titles by Piboso. He started with GP Bikes first (GPB), then felt like it didn't generate enough income, so he started also working on Kart Racing Pro (KRP) and World Racing Series (WRS, it shares the license with GPB). Later on he also decided to add a motocross sim to his lineup, called MX Bikes. The first video I showed is recorded in MXB. Might not look like much, but believe me, those things are considerably more hard to handle in direct steering modes than the track bikes in GPB. You can see for yourself: just dl the demo and enable either DS1 or DS2 the same way as you would do in GPB.

If we look at news sections on all sites of Piboso, we can see that KRP was released first, then WRS and GPB, MXB was the last. I myself actually saw them in the same sequence as far as I remember. And I'm not sure about income as the main reason to start working on other projects.

BTW DS in any variation is not for pads or car wheels and even not for DD's custom bars. Handling with DS using pads or car wheels is wrong and not realistic at all (realistic here means the amount of efforts applied and feelings brought through riding experience). I think it must be used with proper device, something like full motion simulator, some kind of device which is able to process all inputs/outputs (steering, leaning, braking, throttling, sliding, forces from physics) as if it's a real bike fully matched with virtual bike model and the track as its environment, so it could give a rider adequate feedback about what happens e.g. move itself according to forces and all. With DS and pads\car wheels there is not enough information about what happens, you will never be fast and stable with such configuration, it's a waste of time.

Quote from: loinen on April 18, 2017, 10:31:13 AM
If we look at news sections on all sites of Piboso, we can see that KRP was released first, then WRS and GPB, MXB was the last. I myself actually saw them in the same sequence as far as I remember. And I'm not sure about income as the main reason to start working on other projects.

I have to admit I'm surprised KRP appears to be 7 years old now, because I started following GPB at around alpha 4 or 5, and I never heard about KRP until much later.
According to a variety of sources like this one (http://www.nogripracing.com/forum/showthread.php?p=299050), the very first GPB alpha was released in May of 2008.

Well, since KRP came about only 2 years later, probably it wasn't a part of the "not enough cash flow, need to add more projects" plan. WRS, on the other hand, was, and I'm sure the same can be said of MXB, even though MXB seem to come out more thought out and polished than GPB recently.
I wouldn't be saying this if I didn't read it myself. And it was another reason why I quit GP Bikes 4 years ago. It absolutely needed more work and more resources, yet Piboso said that GP Bikes alone wasn't generating enough income and therefore would be worked on less. It was a shock, to be honest, since GP Bikes was and is the only sim of its kind.

QuoteBTW DS in any variation is not for pads or car wheels and even not for DD's custom bars. Handling with DS using pads or car wheels is wrong and not realistic at all (realistic here means the amount of efforts applied and feelings brought through riding experience). I think it must be used with proper device, something like full motion simulator, some kind of device which is able to process all inputs/outputs (steering, leaning, braking, throttling, sliding, forces from physics) as if it's a real bike fully matched with virtual bike model and the track as its environment, so it could give a rider adequate feedback about what happens e.g. move itself according to forces and all. With DS and pads\car wheels there is not enough information about what happens, you will never be fast and stable with such configuration, it's a waste of time.

"Even"? DD's bars at the very least need force feedback. As for wheels, have you actually tried doing it the way I suggested? It may be quite a lot of cutting corners with this setup, but at least it's the best virtual motorcycling experience I had. And even if a typical wheel can't provide nearly enough resistance at speed you'd expect of an actual bike, it still feels quite organic. I'm sure belt-driven and especially direct-driven wheels will only improve on the feel.
Yes, there's not quite enough feedback on what is happening, but where have you seen a sim that was giving enough of it? We have to make do with what we have.
Yes, chances are one will never achieve the lap times of the autopilot, but hey, at least you are the one controlling the bike now, not some AI. If I wanted to watch somebody else steering the bike, I'd just go watch MotoGP.
All in all, the default steering is a way much cutting of corners. You voluntarily give up the bike's controls like that. It's just not interesting in the slightest.

If you only care about better lap times, why not Ride 2 then? I heard it's pretty decent for a bike game. As for "realism", what's the point talking about realism if you give up the bike controls in the first place? There are no robotic bikes out there in RL you could control dictating the bike lean angle, you know.

As for being stable, I already said that I achieved quite a lot in that regard already. It's just that Piboso gave very little in terms of improving the direct steering experience, so it's you who has to make the majority of work. And I did. And it worked. And now I'm sharing what I found so far with anybody else. I know there are people even more lazy than I am. So, now you can do much less fiddling to get the best direct steering experience.

DS2+FFB with all the tweaking still remains very much challenging to a beginner. Still, it's miles ahead of DS1 in that regard. It's hard. But where have you seen a sim done right that is easier to handle than the RL prototype? It's harder exactly because you have less feedback and have some control latency introduced. Is it hard to the point of being unmanageable? Absolutely not. Even with DS1 you can learn to ride, and it's not something only reserved for Klax. Yet with DS1 the amount of work you have to do tends to kill most of the enjoyment. DS2 has a greatly superior enjoyment/work ratio while also adding more feedback.

Speaking of the direct steering mode 2 stability:
http://www.youtube.com/v/pqoUxTKl3fw
I really abused it a lot on the second lap, yet the bike didn't capsize.

Still without the headtracking lean, though. Will do something about it later...

The setup needs more dampening, but I simply wanted to show something sooner than later :)

Probably the best bike to start with:

http://www.youtube.com/v/5bX64OMHFlU

With this out of the way, the road to virtual touring is free now :)

http://www.youtube.com/v/nLHk2egW7zE

Just to clarify the above. This damned hairpin was the stumbling block that was preventing me from truly considering the direct steering motorcycling experience in GP Bikes a complete one.

As it turns out, after more practice, getting through it at low speeds is more than doable. Even in the 2nd gear (in the vid I'm in the 1st, though).

Quote from: passerBy on April 20, 2017, 05:59:13 AM
With this out of the way, the road to virtual touring is free now :)

Just to clarify the above. This damned hairpin was the stumbling block that was preventing me from truly considering the direct steering motorcycling experience in GP Bikes a complete one.

As it turns out, after more practice, getting through it at low speeds is more than doable. Even in the 2nd gear (in the vid I'm in the 1st, though).

Which track is this?

Cheers,

/David "Gonzo" Boda #46

I won't quote everything but here is my answer for your posts..

Quote from: passerBy on April 18, 2017, 10:38:13 PM

"Even"?..

I tried but with degrees of rotation set to 180 default and ds setup on my G25 wheel. Default steering still seems more preferable and natural with proper FFB force. The main unrealistic thing of DS is that you must always resist bike tending to fall in a way which feels very unnatural. Frankly speaking I did not spent much time for training GPB with DS setups but this is simply because I spent a lot of time wanking out MX Simulator's system which is quite similar to DS when you try it with minimal dampers, leveling etc. And I know that in MX Sim with all its helpers set even to 50% so called pro riders cant be stable. This is not good at all. Also I think you give too much meaning to GPB's AI. I think it is not something that steals your right to be the rider of your virtual bike, you still control most of things, but AI controls a part which you should not control manually (except max lean angle which is not so critical imo), the lap times are yours, not of a robot. When you ride a bike IRL there are some forces and feelings helping you naturally control falling, in GPB and MXSim riding with no AI rider feels like YOU must become those forces and imagine all those feelings and everything is for struggling crashes, countersteering the way it feels with DS on pad/wheel is not about natural perception of the technique. Way too complicated comparing to reality. And I do not only care about lap times, I care about competitive online racing, physics and handling as much natural as possible. Ride 2 is an arcade game where anybody can ride fast since first start, it gets boring after 2-3 weeks, not my type of games. I can accept racing simulators in which learning curve is somewhere near reality - here i mean efforts/hours spent to reach real fast lap time with condition such as 1) you really do not push to fly from any corner 2) you must be able to be constant with a good lap time. And looking at my experience, skills/consistency, laptimes in MXB and GPB (plus some other sims before them as part of virtual riding experience), I can say that the time/efforts I spent to reach them is quite realistic.

Quote from: davidboda46 on April 20, 2017, 04:28:14 PM

Quote from: passerBy on April 20, 2017, 05:59:13 AM
With this out of the way, the road to virtual touring is free now :)

Just to clarify the above. This damned hairpin was the stumbling block that was preventing me from truly considering the direct steering motorcycling experience in GP Bikes a complete one.

As it turns out, after more practice, getting through it at low speeds is more than doable. Even in the 2nd gear (in the vid I'm in the 1st, though).

Which track is this?

Cheers,

/David "Gonzo" Boda #46

It's the A-7000 (also known as "Montes de Malaga"). My favorite road for GPB by far :)

Quote from: loinen on April 20, 2017, 05:03:56 PM
I tried but with degrees of rotation set to 180 default and ds setup on my G25 wheel. Default steering still seems more preferable and natural with proper FFB force.

I assume you tried the directsteer=2 with that.

Well, 180 degrees is just too much. Imagine having installed an almost 4:1 reduction gearing between the bars and the fork. It would feel weird, right? That's basically what you did with the 180° setting. Most likely, that is also the mistake DD made when he was experimenting with his Logitech wheel too.

Please, do me a favor. Back up your controller and calibration files, make a separate Logitech profile for GP Bikes with Degrees of Rotation set to 50 (or temporarily set the global profile to that), and drop this DS configuration into your GP Bikes profile.ini:
[hardcore]
directsteer=2
directsteer_maxangle=25

In the options I would recommend assigning L/R rider lean to the wheel buttons, set view Tilt to as close to 100 as still comfortable enough, remove any headtracking/looking into turn or into lean (to make sure these things won't affect your lean perception while you are getting to grips with direct steering) and make sure that the Linearity slider for the Lean is in the middle at 100.

Now, take some "user friendly" enough bike (like the CBR600RR above) to a track you'll feel comfortable at while practicing ("trial" might be the best for that, or the already mentioned Grobnik, or Funring) and give it some riding time, let it sink into you.
One thing to consider here: because the Logitech's FFB is quite crappy, consider yourself being extremely strong (the smaller the FFB value, the stronger you are). So, just imagine you are riding a bike while being too strong for your own good. Try not to as much turn the bars (the wheel), as to push on them, feeling the resistance without actually turning the controller wheel itself much. Done right, I don't think it will turn more than 2° to 3° in either direction at speed like that. Also, I would suggest running the FFB at as close to 100 as possible in both the Logitech profiler and in GPB, but the shaking thing might get annoying too soon, depending on the track and the bike.

I will answer the rest of your post at a later time.
Edit:

Remember the other two FFB settings occupying the same block with the overall strength slider? Turns out at least the one controlling the dampening strength has finally proven its usefulness :) I would always set these two to 0 before, but in GPB dampening is right at home.

QuoteThe main unrealistic thing of DS is that you must always resist bike tending to fall in a way which feels very unnatural.

Well, I'm not happy with that either. Probably some still remaining deficiencies of the physics engine (like the ones from the past making the tires not grip as they should, or the tendency to capsize while going up a slope).
The good thing is that cranking that "Damper Effect Strength" up to 100 really helps a lot in keeping the bike on its wheels through the tightest of the bends all the while hanging off the bike.

QuoteFrankly speaking I did not spent much time for training GPB with DS setups but this is simply because I spent a lot of time wanking out MX Simulator's system which is quite similar to DS when you try it with minimal dampers, leveling etc. And I know that in MX Sim with all its helpers set even to 50% so called pro riders cant be stable. This is not good at all.

I hear you, spent a lot of time myself in that thing with varying results. Ironically, it made me wish GPB had a similar way of controlling the bike too, and I pestered Piboso about it quite a lot at the time :)
Turned out it wasn't all to great on tarmac either... However, there was an alternative way of doing this. And I'm really happy he took his time to implement it as well.

QuoteAlso I think you give too much meaning to GPB's AI. I think it is not something that steals your right to be the rider of your virtual bike, you still control most of things, but AI controls a part which you should not control manually (except max lean angle which is not so critical imo), the lap times are yours, not of a robot.

Believe it or not, I decided to try the default steering today the first time after these 4 years. I should have saved my attempts and uploaded them, because it looked hilarious :) I only managed to make myself go in a straight line after a dozen or so of attempts. It didn't feel just weird, it was outright bizarre. Would almost drop it to a side and the bike would go in very tight circles with no effort whatsoever. That's just simply wrong.

By the way, as I said, I tried DS1 after almost the same amount of time, and at first it was weird as well. Until I realized I needed to put negative values into the ini. After that, getting the bike to roll and to turn was much easier.

You might find it strange, to say the least, but it was way easier for me to pick up DS1 than the default steering. I ended up being able to make just a single turn in default steering after around twenty or so attempts. It felt this wrong.

QuoteWhen you ride a bike IRL there are some forces and feelings helping you naturally control falling

Yes, it's hard not having your vestibular system helping you. However, you can substitute it with your vision. Same thing with helicopter sims. Making a proper hover in them is almost as difficult (if not more), yet people learn to do that too (I, for one, can do a good enough hover to pick a crate with the DCS Huey). And I'd say I get more feedback in GPB than I do in DCS.

Quotein GPB and MXSim riding with no AI rider feels like YOU must become those forces and imagine all those feelings and everything is for struggling crashes, countersteering the way it feels with DS on pad/wheel is not about natural perception of the technique. Way too complicated comparing to reality.

It's natural for a sim to be more complicated compared to reality. Exactly because you have much less feedback. On the plus side, a crash can't hurt you much in a sim. Though it probably can give a stroke with all the frustration...

QuoteAnd I do not only care about lap times, I care about competitive online racing

That's pretty much the same thing. I love bikes and helicopters (among other things). That's why I ride/fly them. Lap times and podiums are not about liking what's getting you there, they are more about liking yourself.

Quotephysics and handling as much natural as possible

Well, most likely the handling in GPB DS mode 2 can be brought very close to natural. It probably only depends on how much we are ready to spend on that much naturalness. A good direct drive wheel would probably be the best answer here. The problem is, I'm not yet ready to invest several thousands of dollars into this. So, I'm more or less content with what my G27 can provide me with.

QuoteRide 2 is an arcade game where anybody can ride fast since first start, it gets boring after 2-3 weeks, not my type of games.

For me the default steering also got boring probably back when GPB was still an alpha. The difference is, I don't hunt for better lap times, nor do I race online, so there was little to keep me riding like this.
With the coming of direct steering, however, things changed significantly. And the coming of DS2 has finally made GPB the sim I want.
It's like cars (the G27 was initially meant for them). I switched to them at the time because I could actually drive them myself, I could feel the reaction of the steering and it wasn't as hard as trying to walk the tightrope while juggling the balls. And driving them myself was fun. Learning to drift was fun. Imagine I could only tell the AI where to go instead of handling the wheel by myself. That might work in racing, but all in all, it's a boring idea. Even if I could still operate the pedals and the shifter.

Then came the second mode in GPB: even more direct control, less hardcore. And then the sim started getting improved. And I started figuring out how to make the best out of this mode.

QuoteI can accept racing simulators in which learning curve is somewhere near reality - here i mean efforts/hours spent to reach real fast lap time with condition such as 1) you really do not push to fly from any corner 2) you must be able to be constant with a good lap time. And looking at my experience, skills/consistency, laptimes in MXB and GPB (plus some other sims before them as part of virtual riding experience), I can say that the time/efforts I spent to reach them is quite realistic.

That's another possibility. But I wouldn't strictly call something like that a sim (if that matters). A sim is an as close a mathematical model to reality as possible. Even if it's completely undrivable (like a proper bicycle simulator would be, for example).

A learning curve approximation is probably the best of both worlds, especially if it has a mathematically sound sim underneath. But it still needs to be not only about as hard (or easy) as RL, but also about as fun as RL, in my opinion.

The stability given by the Damper Effect Strength speaks for itself.

http://www.youtube.com/v/LbfbwWGXqjQ

Quote from: passerBy on April 21, 2017, 03:49:46 PM
The stability given by the Damper Effect Strength speaks for itself.

Explanation ?

Quote from: HornetMaX on April 21, 2017, 08:25:44 PM

Quote from: passerBy on April 21, 2017, 03:49:46 PM
The stability given by the Damper Effect Strength speaks for itself.

Explanation ?

Well, you need to watch the previous videos to make the comparison. Ok, maybe it is obvious to me, since I also could see and feel it from the 1st person perspective, but it appeared to me pretty noticeable that while hanging off the bike at full and close to full lean now I can keep the bike much more stable than before I tried changing the FFB damper strength option. I never expected it to be that much of a help. Now if only I could try this on at least a belt-driven wheel... With that most likely even the FFB spikes will be less of a bother.

Piboso definitely needs to incorporate an FFB filter into the sim. The minimum force might be not as important, but when your wheel is trying to shake the table and itself apart most of the time, you naturally get worried. At the same time, you want an as strong the FFB as at all possible to properly utilize this direct steering mode. Oh, and besides, exactly because of this I would rather call this the "torque mode" and the first one the "angle mode". What the software deals with is only relevant to the said software. You, as the user, input an angle in the first mode (unless there's a controller you mentioned is in use) that will be subsequently converted into the torque fed to the algorithm. Just like with potentiometer-based pedals (instead of load-cell based), this just feels wrong. In the second mode, especially if the controller is strong enough, you input torque. Yes, you can input angle, but that will make you fall. You should adapt to listening to what the bars are doing and respond to that with torque of your own. That will improve your riding in the sim in that mode drastically.

This can be surprisingly hard to achieve.

http://www.youtube.com/v/jRA29IQKq7M

Ever since I saw motogymkhana videos on YouTube, I was curious if it's possible to replicate in GP Bikes (using direct steering, of course). Didn't have much luck previously (apart from some accidental really sharp turns), but this time around I started getting closer to the desired result.

Ironically, still can hardly make a U-turn on a wide enough track.

Now imagine doing this in the default steering. I doubt it would make any sense at all...

Well done mate.... That manoeuvre is very difficult using DST. Practice really does make perfect I see! Well done!  ;) 8)

Hawk.

Quote from: Hawk on April 22, 2017, 03:01:23 PM
Well done mate.... That manoeuvre is very difficult using DST. Practice really does make perfect I see! Well done!  ;) 8)

Hawk.

Thank you, Hawk :) I think it would be much more difficult if I, indeed, used the first mode, though (DS1/DST). I use the second one (DS2/DSA). For me it feels much more natural than either the first mode, or the default steering mode. I doubt it makes much sense to use the DS1 on a force feedback wheel, and this kind of "stunt" almost requires you to have force feedback.
I really miss having proper controls, sadly, including the rear brake pedal.

I agree, practice makes perfect :) Not sure how much of it I'll have to go through until I can complete some basic gymkhana course. Not having any markings for the course doesn't help either ;D I have a feeling, though, that when I have my headtracking/HT rider lean back, I'll show more progress :)

Thank you a lot once again, mate! :)

Quote from: passerBy on April 22, 2017, 10:49:12 AM
Well, you need to watch the previous videos to make the comparison. Ok, maybe it is obvious to me, since I also could see and feel it from the 1st person perspective, but it appeared to me pretty noticeable that while hanging off the bike at full and close to full lean now I can keep the bike much more stable than before I tried changing the FFB damper strength option. I never expected it to be that much of a help. Now if only I could try this on at least a belt-driven wheel... With that most likely even the FFB spikes will be less of a bother.

Is GPB using programmable features (like Damper Effect Strength) ? I thought it wasn't. Worth to check with the boss ... because even in KRP forum, none of these effects seems to be used ...

Just to be sure, did you check the "Allow the game to adjust settings" thingy, right ?

Quote from: passerBy on April 22, 2017, 02:31:12 PM
Now imagine doing this in the default steering. I doubt it would make any sense at all...

http://www.youtube.com/v/SU28ccJWuiU
[normal steering, manual rider lean but no lean at all, direct steer lean 100%]

Granted, the current virtual rider has troubles at low speed but as we're dealing with GP bikes, that's not a huge deal in general.

Quote from: Hawk on April 22, 2017, 03:01:23 PM
Well done mate.... That manoeuvre is very difficult using DST. Practice really does make perfect I see! Well done!  ;) 8)

He used DSA (which is still hard, but not as impossible as DST).

Quote from: passerBy on April 21, 2017, 01:40:48 AM

Quote from: davidboda46 on April 20, 2017, 04:28:14 PM

Quote from: passerBy on April 20, 2017, 05:59:13 AM
With this out of the way, the road to virtual touring is free now :)

Just to clarify the above. This damned hairpin was the stumbling block that was preventing me from truly considering the direct steering motorcycling experience in GP Bikes a complete one.

As it turns out, after more practice, getting through it at low speeds is more than doable. Even in the 2nd gear (in the vid I'm in the 1st, though).

Which track is this?

Cheers,

/David "Gonzo" Boda #46

It's the A-7000 (also known as "Montes de Malaga"). My favorite road for GPB by far :)

Ok, thanks!

Cheers,

/David "Gonzo" Boda #46

Quote from: HornetMaX on April 22, 2017, 05:35:14 PM
Is GPB using programmable features (like Damper Effect Strength) ? I thought it wasn't. Worth to check with the boss ... because even in KRP forum, none of these effects seems to be used ...

Checked more extensively once again, and now I'm not so sure whether it works or not. On the other hand, I'm burned out at the moment, so I can't really tell if I feel the difference. Still, the wheel appears to be more heavier than not with the dampening on.

QuoteJust to be sure, did you check the "Allow the game to adjust settings" thingy, right ?

It's already checked, I didn't have to do that.

Quote

Quote from: passerBy on April 22, 2017, 02:31:12 PM
Now imagine doing this in the default steering. I doubt it would make any sense at all...

http://www.youtube.com/v/SU28ccJWuiU
[normal steering, manual rider lean but no lean at all, direct steer 100%]

Granted, the current virtual rider has troubles at low speed but as we're dealing with GP bikes, that's not a huge deal in general.

(I assume you meant "direct lean 100%")
What I meant by not making any sense at all is that as I mentioned above, after switching to the default steering I was making my way out of the box, and trying to compensate what I felt through the FFB I dropped the wheel to a lock. The bike proceeded to make circles in the space between the boxes and the wall with no input from me whatsoever, because I was laughing looking at all this having left go of all the controls. I regret not saving the replay though. Thought it was something that the AI tends to do on itself. When I tried to replicate this today, I failed (probably because while trying to make it go in circles it ends up going straight for me).

Either way, doing gymkhana in the default steering doesn't make much sense because the AI will keep the bike from falling. You just deflect the controller to a side and that's it. Ok, maybe going fast through the course will be challenging, but only from the route planning point of view.
So, instead of concertating the controls you will simply point a spot to the AI, "make some circles round here" -- and it will proceed going in circles. Boring.

Quote

Quote from: Hawk on April 22, 2017, 03:01:23 PM
Well done mate.... That manoeuvre is very difficult using DST. Practice really does make perfect I see! Well done!  ;) 8)

He used DSA (which is still hard, but not as impossible as DST).

I already mentioned that :) And the first mode is not really "impossible", but is extremely hard to achieve any meaningful results with.

Quote

Quote from: davidboda46 on April 22, 2017, 08:55:38 PM
It's the A-7000 (also known as "Montes de Malaga"). My favorite road for GPB by far :)

Ok, thanks!

You are welcome :)

Quote from: passerBy on April 23, 2017, 07:24:03 AM(I assume you meant "direct lean 100%")

Yeah, sorry. Fixed.

What bothers me in GPB to this day is the tendency of the bikes to have sudden drops into the lean while the rider is at full lean into the turn.
Some bikes don't have it as bad. You can usually "ride" the FFB edge right into the corner and continue pushing on the inside "bar" all the way up to the exit. Just get on the brakes, hang off from the desired side, notice the fork starting to turn into the bend, smoothly get off the brake and on the throttle. This way the chances of dropping the bike are basically nil, but I have a feeling this might not be the fastest way around the corner.

Some bikes, however, are not like that. They'll let you feel the pressure of the inside bar up to around the apex, then the FFB decreases to 0, you have no idea what's going on in the front... and you drop the bike.

I love that ZX-7R to bits (after softening the suspension), but it has this annoying trait that makes it hardly possible to lean decently.

This gave me an idea. It would most likely make much more sense to test the bikes in this direct steering mode rather than in the default steering. You might not notice it, but the AI might be actually struggling with the bike. But since you don't have much feedback, you could be missing something important.

Quote from: passerBy on April 23, 2017, 03:48:59 PM
This gave me an idea. It would most likely make much more sense to test the bikes in this direct steering mode rather than in the default steering. You might not notice it, but the AI might be actually struggling with the bike. But since you don't have much feedback, you could be missing something important.

Assuming all the bike basic params are fixed, tuning the virtual rider gains (spg0/1, sdg0/1, sig0/1 and  KYaw, KDamping0, KDamping1) is more or less blind trial and error for the modders.
Except PiBoSo nobody has the necessary tools to do that tuning properly (not even sure he has, but he could).

One thing I don't know is that: for normal steering, the above gains are used. For DST/DS1 none of them i used (as you directly input the torque in the physical model, no virtual rider).
But what for DSA/DS2 ? There's a PID, but what are its gains and where are they in the .cfg of each bike ?

Quote from: passerBy on April 21, 2017, 02:41:58 AM

Quote from: loinen on April 20, 2017, 05:03:56 PM
I tried but with degrees of rotation set to 180 default and ds setup on my G25 wheel. Default steering still seems more preferable and natural with proper FFB force.

I assume you tried the directsteer=2 with that.

yes, i did.

Quote from: passerBy on April 21, 2017, 02:41:58 AM
Well, 180 degrees is just too much. Imagine having installed an almost 4:1 reduction gearing between the bars and the fork. It would feel weird, right? That's basically what you did with the 180° setting. Most likely, that is also the mistake DD made when he was experimenting with his Logitech wheel too.

i used to set it to 180 because i rode many hours with my logitech wheel in default steering mode and this value was identified as the most correct one for proper lean control, i don't think that 'mistake' is a proper word for this action. as you may know in default steering turning a wheel means leaning a bike and amount of turning here = angle of leaning. that's why i set it to 180 when i tried DST - just wanted to have more "distance" available for turning my wheel than 50 degrees.

Quote from: passerBy on April 21, 2017, 02:41:58 AM
Please, do me a favor. Back up your controller and calibration files, make a separate Logitech profile for GP Bikes with Degrees of Rotation set to 50 (or temporarily set the global profile to that), and drop this DS configuration into your GP Bikes profile.ini:

Code Select Expand

[hardcore]
directsteer=2
directsteer_maxangle=25

In the options I would recommend assigning L/R rider lean to the wheel buttons, set view Tilt to as close to 100 as still comfortable enough, remove any headtracking/looking into turn or into lean (to make sure these things won't affect your lean perception while you are getting to grips with direct steering) and make sure that the Linearity slider for the Lean is in the middle at 100.

Now, take some "user friendly" enough bike (like the CBR600RR above) to a track you'll feel comfortable at while practicing ("trial" might be the best for that, or the already mentioned Grobnik, or Funring) and give it some riding time, let it sink into you.

so, i have tried this today and i'm still not going to change my opinion :) it's weird, it's too hard, it's not realistic and not similar to real bike controlling, it's not for car wheels and gamepads.

Quote from: passerBy on April 21, 2017, 02:41:58 AM

QuoteI can accept racing simulators in which learning curve is somewhere near reality - here i mean efforts/hours spent to reach real fast lap time with condition such as 1) you really do not push to fly from any corner 2) you must be able to be constant with a good lap time. And looking at my experience, skills/consistency, laptimes in MXB and GPB (plus some other sims before them as part of virtual riding experience), I can say that the time/efforts I spent to reach them is quite realistic.

That's another possibility. But I wouldn't strictly call something like that a sim (if that matters). A sim is an as close a mathematical model to reality as possible. Even if it's completely undrivable (like a proper bicycle simulator would be, for example).

A learning curve approximation is probably the best of both worlds, especially if it has a mathematically sound sim underneath. But it still needs to be not only about as hard (or easy) as RL, but also about as fun as RL, in my opinion.

in my opinion controlling lean angle with default steering is some different fun comparing to RL but it's close as possible to the feelings\technique of controlling the bike IRL, it's more intuitive and does not fall in total contradiction with my natural perception of bike controlling IRL whilst DS does fall.

Sorry, guys, I will have to leave for now due to the worsening of my own set of health-related issues. I really hate it happening when I just started to enjoy GPB...

Ach, bad news. Get well soon !

Get well soon mate.

Cheers,

/David "Gonzo" Boda #46

Thank you, guys! Back for now...

Quote from: HornetMaX on April 23, 2017, 04:48:27 PM

Quote from: passerBy on April 23, 2017, 03:48:59 PM
This gave me an idea. It would most likely make much more sense to test the bikes in this direct steering mode rather than in the default steering. You might not notice it, but the AI might be actually struggling with the bike. But since you don't have much feedback, you could be missing something important.

Assuming all the bike basic params are fixed, tuning the virtual rider gains (spg0/1, sdg0/1, sig0/1 and  KYaw, KDamping0, KDamping1) is more or less blind trial and error for the modders.
Except PiBoSo nobody has the necessary tools to do that tuning properly (not even sure he has, but he could).

One thing I don't know is that: for normal steering, the above gains are used. For DST/DS1 none of them i used (as you directly input the torque in the physical model, no virtual rider).
But what for DSA/DS2 ? There's a PID, but what are its gains and where are they in the .cfg of each bike ?

I presume the gains are hard-coded. And even though I don't see any need to be able to tinker with them in GP Bikes (for smaller bikes maybe? two-strokes?), but the response time of the MX Bikes' PID leaves something to be desired... Not very happy with the delays, but it turned out to be much more manageable than I initially thought it was. As for the rest, probably need to learn more about dirt bikes specifics.

Quote from: loinen on April 24, 2017, 07:14:37 AM

Quote from: passerBy on April 21, 2017, 02:41:58 AM
Well, 180 degrees is just too much. Imagine having installed an almost 4:1 reduction gearing between the bars and the fork. It would feel weird, right? That's basically what you did with the 180° setting. Most likely, that is also the mistake DD made when he was experimenting with his Logitech wheel too.

i used to set it to 180 because i rode many hours with my logitech wheel in default steering mode and this value was identified as the most correct one for proper lean control, i don't think that 'mistake' is a proper word for this action. as you may know in default steering turning a wheel means leaning a bike and amount of turning here = angle of leaning. that's why i set it to 180 when i tried DST - just wanted to have more "distance" available for turning my wheel than 50 degrees.

But directsteer=2 is not default steering, and the same approach is not really applicable to it.

Quote from: passerBy on April 21, 2017, 02:41:58 AM
Please, do me a favor. Back up your controller and calibration files, make a separate Logitech profile for GP Bikes with Degrees of Rotation set to 50 (or temporarily set the global profile to that), and drop this DS configuration into your GP Bikes profile.ini:

Code Select Expand

[hardcore]
directsteer=2
directsteer_maxangle=25

QuoteIn the options I would recommend assigning L/R rider lean to the wheel buttons, set view Tilt to as close to 100 as still comfortable enough, remove any headtracking/looking into turn or into lean (to make sure these things won't affect your lean perception while you are getting to grips with direct steering) and make sure that the Linearity slider for the Lean is in the middle at 100.

Now, take some "user friendly" enough bike (like the CBR600RR above) to a track you'll feel comfortable at while practicing ("trial" might be the best for that, or the already mentioned Grobnik, or Funring) and give it some riding time, let it sink into you.

so, i have tried this today and i'm still not going to change my opinion :) it's weird, it's too hard, it's not realistic and not similar to real bike controlling, it's not for car wheels and gamepads.

I'm afraid all that boils down to just "too hard" in the end ;) But it's not too hard per se. I guess your problem was coming from the default steering. Because as I already mentioned, after switching to default steering for the sake of experimentation I found it to be much more difficult instead. And it was really weird and unrealistic. I mean, how realistic it is to turn the bars to a lock and expect your bike to simply follow the tightest circle?

Furthermore, I did another experimentation. Brought a younger chap into this and did a little bit of training with him. The progression was surprisingly quick. Of course, it helped he had no prior experience with the default steering, but I think several hours of "rewiring" might be enough to start making progress even in that case.
Later on I told him about the default steering and switched the sim to that. He was puzzled on how anybody in their right mind could ride like that :) Took him quite a lot of attempts before he started going straight and making turns in the default steering. After that he said, "yes, this seems to be easier once you got used to it, but I still prefer direct steering".

So, it just depends on your dedication. Just a couple of days or so, I believe, and I wonder if you would even think about going back to the default steering.

Quote

Quote from: passerBy on April 21, 2017, 02:41:58 AM

QuoteI can accept racing simulators in which learning curve is somewhere near reality - here i mean efforts/hours spent to reach real fast lap time with condition such as 1) you really do not push to fly from any corner 2) you must be able to be constant with a good lap time. And looking at my experience, skills/consistency, laptimes in MXB and GPB (plus some other sims before them as part of virtual riding experience), I can say that the time/efforts I spent to reach them is quite realistic.

That's another possibility. But I wouldn't strictly call something like that a sim (if that matters). A sim is an as close a mathematical model to reality as possible. Even if it's completely undrivable (like a proper bicycle simulator would be, for example).

A learning curve approximation is probably the best of both worlds, especially if it has a mathematically sound sim underneath. But it still needs to be not only about as hard (or easy) as RL, but also about as fun as RL, in my opinion.

in my opinion controlling lean angle with default steering is some different fun comparing to RL but it's close as possible to the feelings\technique of controlling the bike IRL, it's more intuitive and does not fall in total contradiction with my natural perception of bike controlling IRL whilst DS does fall.

How can it be "as close as possible" if you don't pull the bars on a real bike to a lock to expect the tightest turn? Name at least a single similarity between RL and the default steering.

Quote from: passerBy on May 09, 2017, 04:52:01 PM

Quote from: loinen on April 24, 2017, 07:14:37 AM

Quote from: passerBy on April 21, 2017, 02:41:58 AM
Well, 180 degrees is just too much. Imagine having installed an almost 4:1 reduction gearing between the bars and the fork. It would feel weird, right? That's basically what you did with the 180° setting. Most likely, that is also the mistake DD made when he was experimenting with his Logitech wheel too.

i used to set it to 180 because i rode many hours with my logitech wheel in default steering mode and this value was identified as the most correct one for proper lean control, i don't think that 'mistake' is a proper word for this action. as you may know in default steering turning a wheel means leaning a bike and amount of turning here = angle of leaning. that's why i set it to 180 when i tried DST - just wanted to have more "distance" available for turning my wheel than 50 degrees.

But directsteer=2 is not default steering, and the same approach is not really applicable to it.

i'm not talking about that approach being applicable or not, i just told why me and DD used 180 degrees for default steering mode.

Quote from: passerBy on May 09, 2017, 04:52:01 PM

Quote from: passerBy on April 21, 2017, 02:41:58 AM
Please, do me a favor. Back up your controller and calibration files, make a separate Logitech profile for GP Bikes with Degrees of Rotation set to 50 (or temporarily set the global profile to that), and drop this DS configuration into your GP Bikes profile.ini:

Code Select Expand

[hardcore]
directsteer=2
directsteer_maxangle=25

QuoteIn the options I would recommend assigning L/R rider lean to the wheel buttons, set view Tilt to as close to 100 as still comfortable enough, remove any headtracking/looking into turn or into lean (to make sure these things won't affect your lean perception while you are getting to grips with direct steering) and make sure that the Linearity slider for the Lean is in the middle at 100.

Now, take some "user friendly" enough bike (like the CBR600RR above) to a track you'll feel comfortable at while practicing ("trial" might be the best for that, or the already mentioned Grobnik, or Funring) and give it some riding time, let it sink into you.

so, i have tried this today and i'm still not going to change my opinion :) it's weird, it's too hard, it's not realistic and not similar to real bike controlling, it's not for car wheels and gamepads.

I'm afraid all that boils down to just "too hard" in the end ;) But it's not too hard per se. I guess your problem was coming from the default steering. Because as I already mentioned, after switching to default steering for the sake of experimentation I found it to be much more difficult instead. And it was really weird and unrealistic. I mean, how realistic it is to turn the bars to a lock and expect your bike to simply follow the tightest circle?

it boils down to "too unnatural" mostly, taking too much time with never possible stable real lap times. of course if you got used to DS you will feel weird def steering, it's normal and doesn't mean that DS is more realistic.

Quote from: passerBy on May 09, 2017, 04:52:01 PM
Furthermore, I did another experimentation. Brought a younger chap into this and did a little bit of training with him. The progression was surprisingly quick. Of course, it helped he had no prior experience with the default steering, but I think several hours of "rewiring" might be enough to start making progress even in that case.
Later on I told him about the default steering and switched the sim to that. He was puzzled on how anybody in their right mind could ride like that :) Took him quite a lot of attempts before he started going straight and making turns in the default steering. After that he said, "yes, this seems to be easier once you got used to it, but I still prefer direct steering".

So, it just depends on your dedication. Just a couple of days or so, I believe, and I wonder if you would even think about going back to the default steering.

all this sounds to me like a newbie exprerience. i was a pro at some FPSs in the past and saw similar situations: newbies always like some uneffective things, they think it's all just about getting used or personal prefer, but at the end they always suck with their setups coz they do not see deep into the game due to their poor experience. same here, about simulators. as i said before, i spent a lot of time for testing MX Simulator with handling mode pretty similar to DS, it doesn't work at the end, you will never be able to become a good rider with this kind of handling.

Quote from: passerBy on May 09, 2017, 04:52:01 PM

Quote

Quote from: passerBy on April 21, 2017, 02:41:58 AM

QuoteI can accept racing simulators in which learning curve is somewhere near reality - here i mean efforts/hours spent to reach real fast lap time with condition such as 1) you really do not push to fly from any corner 2) you must be able to be constant with a good lap time. And looking at my experience, skills/consistency, laptimes in MXB and GPB (plus some other sims before them as part of virtual riding experience), I can say that the time/efforts I spent to reach them is quite realistic.

That's another possibility. But I wouldn't strictly call something like that a sim (if that matters). A sim is an as close a mathematical model to reality as possible. Even if it's completely undrivable (like a proper bicycle simulator would be, for example).

A learning curve approximation is probably the best of both worlds, especially if it has a mathematically sound sim underneath. But it still needs to be not only about as hard (or easy) as RL, but also about as fun as RL, in my opinion.

in my opinion controlling lean angle with default steering is some different fun comparing to RL but it's close as possible to the feelings\technique of controlling the bike IRL, it's more intuitive and does not fall in total contradiction with my natural perception of bike controlling IRL whilst DS does fall.

How can it be "as close as possible" if you don't pull the bars on a real bike to a lock to expect the tightest turn? Name at least a single similarity between RL and the default steering.

i already described everything but seems that i should try to find other words :) well.. despite that lock, default steering feels much more natural when it comes to lean process and the result of that process: if you want a bike to lean left you simply lean left and you don't fall, that's all enough, this is realistic and natural. DS is not about simple lean left if you want to lean left. all the guys of direct steering always talk so much about turning bars and lean angle as a main criteria of realistic handling. seems that you also stick to control of lean angle by turning bars (wheel with 50 degrees angle actually) and you don't see how weird is the process of training\working with those virtual bars in DS mode, you got used to it already. for me realism of bike control in sim is about natural feeling of control technique, of lean itself (talking of process, not the angle), of brakes and throttle on all bikes and all speeds. actually the only realistic thing in direct steering is the possibility to fully control lean angle, but control process itseslf is not realistic - i mean how it feels when you try to turn the bars, how it feels when you switch to 125cc bikes and so on, it's wrong.  and by the way, regarding your words: " A sim is an as close a mathematical model to reality as possible. Even if it's completely undrivable (like a proper bicycle simulator would be, for example)." - the first sentence is fully correct, the second is not. proper simulator must be drivable and should be felt natural.

Quote from: loinen on May 09, 2017, 09:53:47 PM

Quote from: passerBy
I'm afraid all that boils down to just "too hard" in the end ;) But it's not too hard per se. I guess your problem was coming from the default steering. Because as I already mentioned, after switching to default steering for the sake of experimentation I found it to be much more difficult instead. And it was really weird and unrealistic. I mean, how realistic it is to turn the bars to a lock and expect your bike to simply follow the tightest circle?

it boils down to "too unnatural" mostly, taking too much time with never possible stable real lap times. of course if you got used to DS you will feel weird def steering, it's normal and doesn't mean that DS is more realistic.

It is more realistic because you do to the wheel pretty much the same thing you'd do to the bars in RL. Especially if you'd be able to impart exorbitant amounts of torque to the bars.

Quote

Quote from: passerBy on May 09, 2017, 04:52:01 PM
Furthermore, I did another experimentation. Brought a younger chap into this and did a little bit of training with him. The progression was surprisingly quick. Of course, it helped he had no prior experience with the default steering, but I think several hours of "rewiring" might be enough to start making progress even in that case.
Later on I told him about the default steering and switched the sim to that. He was puzzled on how anybody in their right mind could ride like that :) Took him quite a lot of attempts before he started going straight and making turns in the default steering. After that he said, "yes, this seems to be easier once you got used to it, but I still prefer direct steering".

So, it just depends on your dedication. Just a couple of days or so, I believe, and I wonder if you would even think about going back to the default steering.

all this sounds to me like a newbie exprerience. i was a pro at some FPSs in the past and saw similar situations: newbies always like some uneffective things, they think it's all just about getting used or personal prefer, but at the end they always suck with their setups coz they do not see deep into the game due to their poor experience. same here, about simulators. as i said before, i spent a lot of time for testing MX Simulator with handling mode pretty similar to DS, it doesn't work at the end, you will never be able to become a good rider with this kind of handling.

"Same here, about simulators"? Just to let you know, I'm into simulators longer than the majority of those discussing who is a "newbie" and who does "always suck" have lived so far. Into many kinds of simulators...
I understand you hating the fact that direct steering forces you to learn to ride bikes anew, but let's stop making excuses, calling names... and just be honest for a second. This is a sim. And you can only properly control it via direct steering. Don't want to learn that? A huge loss on your part. Especially because you have a wheel. Just don't go telling "it's not realistic" because you simply don't want to invest time into it. You can learn it. I'm sure pretty much anybody can, since I made quite a huge progress compared to how I started, while also helping one other person achieving the same. You just care too much about your lap times/how fast you are on the track compared to others, afraid to lose something of that and not believing you could actually make more progress using direct steering (after all it gives you full control over the bike and shortens the reaction time). But more importantly, you don't realize what you are missing in terms of pure fun.

As for MX Simulator, I spent a lot of time with it too. Also couldn't make much out of it, but at least it gave me the idea to ask Piboso to add a similar steering system into GPB. And now, in a comparatively very short time I made a huge progress in MXB, which I could never dream of in MXS. Because GPB/MXB is not the same as MXS, they are much more suited for direct steering.

Quotedespite that lock, default steering feels much more natural when it comes to lean process and the result of that process: if you want a bike to lean left you simply lean left and you don't fall, that's all enough, this is realistic and natural.

Except there is a lot of things going on to deal with in order to lean the bike. Not sure if you seen that video of a biker coming out of a blind right hander and making it into the oncoming lane and hitting a truck there because he was trying to steer away from that truck. With the default steering he would get away with that. RL dictates that there's at least the counter-steering to consider.

QuoteDS is not about simple lean left if you want to lean left. all the guys of direct steering always talk so much about turning bars and lean angle as a main criteria of realistic handling. seems that you also stick to control of lean angle by turning bars

Which is how you actually do it. I hope you don't believe you can influence the bike's lean strongly and quickly enough just by shifting your body weight?

Quote(wheel with 50 degrees angle actually)

Well, that's the amount of angle I pulled from the bikes' config files themselves. It's just there it is set as the angle from 0 to a lock, whereas in the Logitech profiler it goes from one lock to the other. 25 * 2 = 50.

Quoteand you don't see how weird is the process of training\working with those virtual bars in DS mode, you got used to it already.

Ironically, I could never get used to any bike game/"sim" before... Had this problem with GP500, had it with SBK2001. With GPB alphas too...
But only with this latest direct steering mode in GPB I could finally feel at home. Yes, it was a lot of falling at first, but hey, that's to be expected not having g-forces to help you and having a very small field of view (and a crappy wheel for the bars to boot). The bottom line is, now I'm dropping the bike for a different reason ;D I'm finally confident with the bike and started pushing it before I learned the tracks better. I know them from the car sims, but that's not helping a lot.

Quotefor me realism of bike control in sim is about natural feeling of control technique, of lean itself (talking of process, not the angle), of brakes and throttle on all bikes and all speeds. actually the only realistic thing in direct steering is the possibility to fully control lean angle, but control process itseslf is not realistic - i mean how it feels when you try to turn the bars, how it feels when you switch to 125cc bikes and so on, it's wrong.

For me a sim is something that can help you learn to use the object of simulation properly, not something that tries to match the object's difficulty.
I wonder what you would say about DCS helicopters... They are hard as hell at first, especially if you don't have a better controller. I'm sure you'd have less hard time learning to hover the real life helicopter.
But consider this: if you managed to learn to do it with so many disadvantages in a sim, it will be much easier for you to switch to the real one.

Quoteand by the way, regarding your words: " A sim is an as close a mathematical model to reality as possible. Even if it's completely undrivable (like a proper bicycle simulator would be, for example)." - the first sentence is fully correct, the second is not. proper simulator must be drivable and should be felt natural.

What you are talking about is rather something different. I'd call it a "perceptive rather than mathematical approach to simulation". And it's worth investigating too. But that's not something I'd call a pure sim, for better or worse.

I didn't know this was possible... Hooray for the IK :)
https://www.youtube.com/v/-cMlVh3PKdM

Quote from: passerBy on May 10, 2017, 05:36:17 PM

Quote from: loinen on May 09, 2017, 09:53:47 PM

Quote from: passerBy
I'm afraid all that boils down to just "too hard" in the end ;) But it's not too hard per se. I guess your problem was coming from the default steering. Because as I already mentioned, after switching to default steering for the sake of experimentation I found it to be much more difficult instead. And it was really weird and unrealistic. I mean, how realistic it is to turn the bars to a lock and expect your bike to simply follow the tightest circle?

it boils down to "too unnatural" mostly, taking too much time with never possible stable real lap times. of course if you got used to DS you will feel weird def steering, it's normal and doesn't mean that DS is more realistic.

It is more realistic because you do to the wheel pretty much the same thing you'd do to the bars in RL. Especially if you'd be able to impart exorbitant amounts of torque to the bars.

it doesnt feel and look the same as IRL, it doesn't bring proper result in proper amount of time with proper effort spent at the end. that's why i cant call it realistic. theoretically it is but practically it isnt.

Quote from: passerBy on May 10, 2017, 05:36:17 PM
"Same here, about simulators"? Just to let you know, I'm into simulators longer than the majority of those discussing who is a "newbie" and who does "always suck" have lived so far. Into many kinds of simulators... 

me too. motos since gp500 and sbk 2000/2001, cars - since the earliest beginnings (having almost all since gtr in license). lock on, ka-50... not played as an offline noob, i played them all competitively, some more, some less but mostly hardcore competition if you know what it means.

Quote from: passerBy on May 10, 2017, 05:36:17 PM
I understand you hating the fact that direct steering forces you to learn to ride bikes anew, but let's stop making excuses, calling names... and just be honest for a second. This is a sim. And you can only properly control it via direct steering. Don't want to learn that? A huge loss on your part. Especially because you have a wheel. Just don't go telling "it's not realistic" because you simply don't want to invest time into it. You can learn it. I'm sure pretty much anybody can, since I made quite a huge progress compared to how I started, while also helping one other person achieving the same. You just care too much about your lap times/how fast you are on the track compared to others, afraid to lose something of that and not believing you could actually make more progress using direct steering (after all it gives you full control over the bike and shortens the reaction time). But more importantly, you don't realize what you are missing in terms of pure fun.

no, you don't understand. i'm always okay about learning, i would stick to direct steering if i felt it the same way as i felt it when riding bike IRL, i'm all for the most realistic handling, physics and so on. there is nothing about worrying for lap times compared to others, it's not my psychology. as i said before: i can accept handling system if it brings the same realistic result (lap time) after same realistic effort put into it (training intensity) and it feels natural for my mind since first start. DS fails here. i tried it several times hoping for best and i quit.

Quote from: passerBy on May 10, 2017, 05:36:17 PM
As for MX Simulator, I spent a lot of time with it too. Also couldn't make much out of it, but at least it gave me the idea to ask Piboso to add a similar steering system into GPB. And now, in a comparatively very short time I made a huge progress in MXB, which I could never dream of in MXS. Because GPB/MXB is not the same as MXS, they are much more suited for direct steering.

how much time did you spent for DS with GPB/MXB? I mean months/years being training this. What's your stable lap time at Victoria and how many stable laps in a row you did max atm and which bike?

Quote from: passerBy on May 10, 2017, 05:36:17 PM

Quotedespite that lock, default steering feels much more natural when it comes to lean process and the result of that process: if you want a bike to lean left you simply lean left and you don't fall, that's all enough, this is realistic and natural.

Except there is a lot of things going on to deal with in order to lean the bike. Not sure if you seen that video of a biker coming out of a blind right hander and making it into the oncoming lane and hitting a truck there because he was trying to steer away from that truck. With the default steering he would get away with that. RL dictates that there's at least the counter-steering to consider.

we don't know actual reason why he did that. at least he got license so he should know what to do.

Quote from: passerBy on May 10, 2017, 05:36:17 PM

QuoteDS is not about simple lean left if you want to lean left. all the guys of direct steering always talk so much about turning bars and lean angle as a main criteria of realistic handling. seems that you also stick to control of lean angle by turning bars

Which is how you actually do it. I hope you don't believe you can influence the bike's lean strongly and quickly enough just by shifting your body weight?

i believe bike leans when applying pressure to the bars. but you probably know that many people riding bikes IRL don't know that because they do this intuitively not knowing anything about counter steering or how it actually happens or is called. and to speak shortly my complain about DS is that it's not intuitive at all.

Quote from: passerBy on May 10, 2017, 05:36:17 PM

Quoteand you don't see how weird is the process of training\working with those virtual bars in DS mode, you got used to it already.

Ironically, I could never get used to any bike game/"sim" before... Had this problem with GP500, had it with SBK2001. With GPB alphas too...
But only with this latest direct steering mode in GPB I could finally feel at home.

well, then you probably feel bike control in some different way compared to most of us using def steering.

i don't feel losing any useful experience by denying DS usage. I still learn a lot about bike behavior even being on def steering, i know what i do and easily understand what and why happens. also i dont like that DS works better for SSP bike but works worse for others, this is another reason why i think it's a wrong path to go. at least with gamepads or car wheels.

Quote from: loinen on May 11, 2017, 07:47:16 AM
it doesnt feel and look the same as IRL, it doesn't bring proper result in proper amount of time with proper effort spent at the end. that's why i cant call it realistic. theoretically it is but practically it isnt.

I already said that such a wheel doesn't represent properly the feel of an RL wheel and it behaves differently, yet you don't mind using it for car sims. Whatever you use for flight sims is even farther from what an actual pilot uses.
If you want the exact look and feel, you have to spend probably more than an actual bike costs, or alternatively do a fair amount of DIY'ing on a better controller, and that still will set you back a lot.
What I surmise would be realistically the best controller for DS is a rig similar to what DD is making, but with the bars clamping to a direct-drive wheel, set at an angle, with rider lean via headtracking, plus a big wide screen.

Not sure what you mean with the "proper result in a proper amount of time". You use the autopilot which needs to be told about the bike lean first before it could start assuming the said angle. You call that a "proper result in a proper amount of time"? Ok, maybe the PID-based DS is a little more latent than the direct torque value input, but it's still miles ahead of the autopilot in terms of sheer immediacy. The amount of effort required purely depends on your controller FFB. Don't have a high-end wheel (me neither)? Then don't complain about how bad it is at rendering the forces and at discerning the angles fed into the system. That's the sole reason why "practically, it isn't."

Again, remember car sims the wheel is made for. Do they fare much better? And if you'd put a set of bars on the wheel and some proper pedals at your feet, that would probably change a lot? Well, at least that's what I want to do...

Quote

Quote from: passerBy on May 10, 2017, 05:36:17 PM
"Same here, about simulators"? Just to let you know, I'm into simulators longer than the majority of those discussing who is a "newbie" and who does "always suck" have lived so far. Into many kinds of simulators... 

me too. motos since gp500 and sbk 2000/2001, cars - since the earliest beginnings (having almost all since gtr in license). lock on, ka-50... not played as an offline noob, i played them all competitively, some more, some less but mostly hardcore competition if you know what it means.

I got into simulators before getting my first PC, which was a PC XT (if you know what that means), so I don't see why I should be taking "noobs" coming from anyone (what's with the teenager talk anyway?)
I don't really care about playing competitively. I do like challenge though. That's why I learned to drift pretty much everything, including the "Tandridge" in WRS, to hover over a cargo in the DCS UH-1 and then carry it, say, to an oil rig on a sling. It is challenging, but it gives you a lot of fun after you start getting better at it. Even more so with direct steering. In a car sim you don't have to drift or race, but you still can have a little fun from the steering process and the FFB themselves. Because you control the car directly. The default steering in GPB (or any other bike game or sim ) robs you even of that... What's the point of riding a bike like that? It could as well be a rally co-driver sim.
But switch the direct steering on, and there you have it -- a good amount of steering fun, which is fun in itself. Plus some FFB that makes sense (at least compared to any other mode).

Quoteno, you don't understand. i'm always okay about learning, i would stick to direct steering if i felt it the same way as i felt it when riding bike IRL

And the default steering feels more the same way you feel in RL? Maybe holding a joypad and twiddling the thumbsticks feels in any way similar to riding a bike? What about cars? Why not drive them using the joypad too then? Just crank up all the steering helpers and race around. Who cares about immersion when you can win in a competitive match, right? After all, a cheap wheel (what I consider any Logitech one to be, realistically) can't provide an experience close to what you have in RL.

Quotei'm all for the most realistic handling, physics and so on. there is nothing about worrying for lap times compared to others, it's not my psychology. as i said before: i can accept handling system if it brings the same realistic result (lap time) after same realistic effort put into it (training intensity) and it feels natural for my mind since first start. DS fails here. i tried it several times hoping for best and i quit.

And what is a realistic effort? Consider you are learning to ride a bike from the start. Without any help from your vestibulary system and with a very limited field of view. What kind of time you are realistically expecting to bring you up to the pace? I'm afraid "several times" just doesn't cut it, unless you are young enough and extremely good at learning new skills. Yes, at the very beginning it's easy to get the impression that you won't be able to learn this in a reasonable amount of time. I know that firsthand. But when you see somebody else doing it, that means you can do it too. Especially when that someone doesn't pretend to be some sort of a prodigy or anything, and just shows you the process of "getting there" with all the hurdles on the way. Giving up after several tries is easy, but it won't get you anywhere.

Quote
how much time did you spent for DS with GPB/MXB? I mean months/years being training this. What's your stable lap time at Victoria and how many stable laps in a row you did max atm and which bike?

Well, certainly, the amount of time I spent on the first mode back in 2013 helped, I guess. Probably did 20 to 50 retries before I could actually start the thing rolling :) But that was the first mode on a joystick. And it was back in the 2013.

I think the first time I tried the second mode with the G27 was when either the beta 4 or the beta 5 was out... Surprisingly, I could make the bike going right away (that's probably where the DS1 experience helped me), and it felt tons more natural than the DS1. But after trying to ride around a little I came to the conclusion that the feature is not ready for the prime time (tight turns and slopes were still a nightmare). Then I'd give some new betas a go from time to time, ending up discarding those too.
So, it's relatively safe to assume that the real training started only once I rejoined the forum and posted in this thread. Factor in that nothing else ever really helped me get to understand how to actually ride a bike, and no, I don't have a real bike experience, partially because of my own set of health considerations, partially due to the financial side of things and due to the logistics involved. Basically, I had to start learning to ride a bike.

The amount of time I spent totally on these sims is hard to assess. It's not like I was practicing all this time. Maybe it was closer to a week of days where I would spend from 2 to maybe 5 hours a day on this. Sometimes would make one to two laps, and there was enough time with me not touching the sims at all (especially during the time where I couldn't use the computer itself for a while).
A very small portion of the total time was invested in MXB, because I have to learn that too, and having very little idea about the vertical stuff surely doesn't help. At the moment it's pretty puzzling for me how one lands these things if the jump wasn't done while being totally upright. Though, I kind of succeeded on producing a semblance of a whip. Still, I expected the bike to respond more to the spinning front wheel in the air.

Consistency and "stable laps" are not about me at all :) Even in the car sims I could be hardly bothered to go for consistency. Even less so in GPB, of course, since I'm still looking for more efficient ways of entering and exiting the bends. The lap times should gravitate more towards 1:50 for now, since I recently achieved 1:45 at Brands Hatch, and I tend to have the same times on different tracks for some reason.

http://www.youtube.com/v/efVfbOPvSAo

And yes, I'm perfectly aware that it should be more like 1:30, but let's say I don't care about the lap times a lot :) My priority is rather feeling the bike and having fun rather than reaching certain lap times. Otherwise that will turn it into a job, and I don't want that. Also, I'm not a lot into small circuits, I very much prefer "touring at speed", hence making even ten consecutive laps over the same circuit is more of a pain for me. That's why I love Nordschleife, but even there the prospect of doing more than three laps is not exactly thrilling.

I still drop the bike every now an then, but that's mostly due to either the track being too bumpy, so I still tend to get the tank-slappers on braking from high speeds, or to hitting those steep kerbs at the Ring, or to coming off track after missing the entry point, not getting close to the apex, then making it worse under excessive throttle. I almost stopped dropping it on hanging off while going through a sweeper. It was just a matter of more confidence and properly using brakes, gas or both. Still think the physical modelling could most likely be improved even more, but there is no perfect sim after all. Neither of the car sims is exceptionally good either, but many of them are still very much usable.

The best bikes for DS so far, in my opinion, are the KTM, the "Murasama", the 600 cc "Blade" and the classic Augusta. The Yamaha from the same set as the RC8 is good too. The MotoGP 2015 bikes are probably the best, but they feel a bit too precise for my taste... From the WSBK 2017 set the Aprilia is very stable (but the Ducati is more fun).
For MXB that "OEM" 2003 Suzuki is very nice. The 2016 Yamahas are not bad either.

Quote
we don't know actual reason why he did that. at least he got license so he should know what to do.

Not everyone having the license knows what to do...

Quote
i believe bike leans when applying pressure to the bars. but you probably know that many people riding bikes IRL don't know that because they do this intuitively not knowing anything about counter steering or how it actually happens or is called. and to speak shortly my complain about DS is that it's not intuitive at all.

Well, judging by the video that rider also tried to act intuitively, which brought him straight into the truck. I think it's one of the most important things to learn what exactly happens when you try to steer the bike. Also I think that riding games could potentially kill riders in those situations. He got that urge to turn right from somewhere, after all.
You say that DS is not intuitive at all, but I'm still not sure how exactly it is not intuitive for you. Personally, I believe that GPB "switches" a little too early from "just steering" to counter-steering. But that might be because the sense of speed is not good at slow speeds (pretty much every sim is affected). The other problem is that the wheel doesn't provide a lot of torque resistance at high speeds and has some play, but that's pretty much a wheel-related problem. I'm sure that a direct-drive wheel would be a huge improvement. Or at least a good belt-driven one. Have to deal with what we have...
Did I miss anything?

Quote
well, then you probably feel bike control in some different way compared to most of us using def steering.

The problem is, I couldn't feel the bike at all in anything but GPB/MXB with DS2 with force-feedback. Not having a real life reference probably influenced that greatly.
Then again, imagine you never been on a bike before (and probably never will). Would you go for the default steering or for the DS?

Quotei don't feel losing any useful experience by denying DS usage. I still learn a lot about bike behavior even being on def steering, i know what i do and easily understand what and why happens. also i dont like that DS works better for SSP bike but works worse for others, this is another reason why i think it's a wrong path to go. at least with gamepads or car wheels.

And I have an explanation why one bike works great with DS, while you'll be dropping the other one often without much reason. Do ANY of the modders test their bikes in DS? Most likely not. They make bikes to use with the autopilot, and that thing tries hard to keep the bike from capsizing (sometimes it appears to me that it tries TOO hard).
If the direct steering would become the standard, and if Piboso invested more time into polishing it out, I see no reason for the bikes not becoming about as stable as the real ones.

holy canoly...you guys have a lot of time to write..more than I have to read :)))  8)

Quote from: vali_grad on May 12, 2017, 07:26:24 PM
holy canoly...you guys have a lot of time to write..more than I have to read :)))  8)

Because, as you can see, this is something really important to me. If it wasn't for this particular flavor of direct steering, I'd haven given up on virtual riding long ago. Direct steering riding is extremely fun, but it is grossly underrated and unpopular. And what I'm trying to achieve here is to make people realize just how fun it is to actually steer the bike on your own, not offloading that function onto the AI.

eh,  I use that too, but some prefer that delayed control  ::) I firmly compare direct control with assetto corsas handling cause recently I play with gpx like in gp bikes .
I have a cheap logitech wheel, but pedals died  :o , and don't wanna invest in a thrustmaster wheel right now ... summer cycling, parts needed :))

Quote from: vali_grad on May 13, 2017, 10:25:18 AM
eh,  I use that too, but some prefer that delayed control  ::)

Seriously?.. You should have said so sooner :) I thought almost nobody else used this method and it was doomed.

QuoteI firmly compare direct control with assetto corsas handling

Well, I can't say I like the Assetto Corsa's feel... Personally, I'm more into rF2 :) Also, I find WRS bundled with GPB a good sim as well (not so sure about its rally-cross part yet, though)

Quotecause recently I play with gpx like in gp bikes .

Sorry, couldn't quite understand what you meant.

QuoteI have a cheap logitech wheel, but pedals died  :o , and don't wanna invest in a thrustmaster wheel right now ... summer cycling, parts needed :))

Maybe that's a sign you should try and make a bike controller out of your wheel? :) Those pedals are not too great for controlling a bike anyway... What do you think of clamping a set of bars onto the wheel with the proper controls tied to either potentiometers or some MaRS sensors, and an up/down switch for the left foot, while you could still probably use one of the pedals for the rear brake.

GPX thrustmaster -xbox licensed controller (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41H96C3eRML._SL256_.jpg)

eh I like to be fast with controls, and a fullsize steering device wont be suitable for chair gaming .. I'd go further for a bike seat and pegs, just my way of thinking :P
I liked rfactor but good God those loading times and clunky menus, GTR1 feel, the physics I like somehow ... but AC gives me more feedback visual, audio and control . {playing AC with gpx }
nicest overall package for my eyes, bought every dlc and will continue that :) {my first paid sim, after 1 year playing torrent version}

Quote from: vali_grad on May 13, 2017, 10:56:50 AM
GPX thrustmaster -xbox licensed controller

I see now... A gamepad then.

Quoteeh I like to be fast with controls, and a fullsize steering device wont be suitable for chair gaming .. I'd go further for a bike seat and pegs, just my way of thinking :P

Agreed on the bike seat with pegs :) Also thought about making something like that... And compared to a typical simpit used for cars, a bike seat could be made more easily and would have been more convenient to move around/store as well.

QuoteI liked rfactor but good God those loading times and clunky menus

Yeah, those loading times are atrocious... As for the menus, I can hardly name a sim where I like them anyway :)

QuoteGTR1 feel, the physics I like somehow ... but AC gives me more feedback visual, audio and control . {playing AC with gpx }
nicest overall package for my eyes, bought every dlc and will continue that :) {my first paid sim, after 1 year playing torrent version}

Considering you have to deal with a gamepad, I guess that is indeed the best choice for now. Hope you'll get your wheel fixed soon.

The GPX has full travel linear triggers - unlike the XB which is compromised a bit for shooting games

Quote from: h106frp on May 13, 2017, 01:20:58 PM
The GPX has full travel linear triggers - unlike the XB which is compromised a bit for shooting games

Still, that's a gamepad... At the very least I'd use a joystick (have several of those). Of course, for someone not into flight sims that might be not a reasonable purchase, but for those who like to give a helo or a plane a spin, it's a win-win solution.

Miles to go in terms of getting better, but this wasn't too bad. It's rare for me to climb that hill at the start of a session and make a lap without falling afterwards on the Enduro track.

http://www.youtube.com/v/TqExGqw3tEs

As it can be seen from the video, the framerate is anywhere from the low 20's up to the 80's. Of course I don't ride like that, but for the sake of a replay it was worth turning the full graphics on :)

Quote from: passerBy on May 12, 2017, 06:38:42 PM

Quote from: loinen on May 11, 2017, 07:47:16 AM
it doesnt feel and look the same as IRL, it doesn't bring proper result in proper amount of time with proper effort spent at the end. that's why i cant call it realistic. theoretically it is but practically it isnt.

I already said that such a wheel doesn't represent properly the feel of an RL wheel and it behaves differently, yet you don't mind using it for car sims.

in car sims our wheels are still good enough to learn driving skills, especially with correct code written for FFB. and these wheels with def steering are okay ('okay'!) to use in GPB if you want to learn what will happen to a bike if you do this or that.

Quote from: passerBy on May 12, 2017, 06:38:42 PM
Whatever you use for flight sims is even farther from what an actual pilot uses.

for X52pro device or hardcore custom stuff it's not that far, if we talk about e.g. Su-27 and main tools to control speed and direction of a jet like rudders, throttle lever, even pedals can be added. ah, buttons on panels are not authentic, yes. i think it's not so critical.

Quote from: passerBy on May 12, 2017, 06:38:42 PM
Not sure what you mean with the "proper result in a proper amount of time".

example. many guys in MX Sim complain that they cant be stable with helpers (in advanced stability) set to 50% even after 2-3 years. i myself spent ~year for mxsim of almost everyday 2-3 hours of intense training with pro setup and i'm still not able to reach pro times (10-15 seconds slower then they are) and i cant even do my best time lap by lap. my friend is one of the fastest, kinda pro rider in MX Sim, participating in championships, it seems he knows or remembers and can easily do fast lap on almost every track released for the game, he spent more than 3 years for wanking out MX Sim. But he cant do race with other pros without falling, nobody can do, pro riders in MX Sim fall a lot. this is improper result with improper amount of time spent to reach this result.

Quote from: passerBy on May 12, 2017, 06:38:42 PM
You use the autopilot which needs to be told about the bike lean first before it could start assuming the said angle. You call that a "proper result in a proper amount of time"? Ok, maybe the PID-based DS is a little more latent than the direct torque value input, but it's still miles ahead of the autopilot in terms of sheer immediacy.

autopilot is that kind of hanling when you turn on brake help, steering help, throttle help, rider auto lean. if all this is off it's not an autopilot. i think calling that helper for max angle as 'autopilot' is incorrect. BTW i still can throw bike to the ground in MXB and GPB with def steering mode.

Quote from: passerBy on May 12, 2017, 06:38:42 PM
The amount of effort required purely depends on your controller FFB. Don't have a high-end wheel (me neither)? Then don't complain about how bad it is at rendering the forces and at discerning the angles fed into the system. That's the sole reason why "practically, it isn't."

the reason of "practically, it isn't." is that i dont like that method of leaning when e.g. to lean left i should turn my wheel to the right then to the left, the bike immediately starts to fall and i should turn my wheel to the left. who can call this realistic handling system? it's perversion.

Quote from: passerBy on May 12, 2017, 06:38:42 PM
I got into simulators before getting my first PC, which was a PC XT (if you know what that means), so I don't see why I should be taking "noobs" coming from anyone (what's with the teenager talk anyway?)
I don't really care about playing competitively. I do like challenge though.

i used 'newbie' as i feel this word not so poisonous as 'noob', actually meant someone who can't perform on the highest level of skills. you do not play competitively. competitive play (with strongest racers, for the win) change your mind, it trains your personality a lot, hardcore racers sees racing very different from a casual rider. no matter virtual or real here. and it also gives your some really deep understanding of how everything works or\and should work.

Quote from: passerBy on May 12, 2017, 06:38:42 PM
In a car sim you don't have to drift or race, but you still can have a little fun from the steering process and the FFB themselves. Because you control the car directly. The default steering in GPB (or any other bike game or sim ) robs you even of that... What's the point of riding a bike like that? It could as well be a rally co-driver sim.

'yes' for fun of steering process. the rest - 'no', absolutely 'no'.

Quote from: passerBy on May 12, 2017, 06:38:42 PM
But switch the direct steering on, and there you have it -- a good amount of steering fun, which is fun in itself. Plus some FFB that makes sense (at least compared to any other mode).

exactly. fun in itself, nothing more.

Quote from: passerBy on May 12, 2017, 06:38:42 PM

Quoteno, you don't understand. i'm always okay about learning, i would stick to direct steering if i felt it the same way as i felt it when riding bike IRL

And the default steering feels more the same way you feel in RL?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVSIoYUUyJ8
here is a simple example why i feel it the same or, okay, if not the same, then at least the closest way i feel in RL. this short video is in Russian (i'm from Russia) but you don't need to listen, simply watch it on 2:05 a little bit. it's natural for me to turn (=apply pressure to left bar with left hand) my Logitech G25 simply left to turn the bike left, all the way right - for the right, nothing more, simple as 2+2. someone can say: you don't apply pressure, you push! i think it's not so important. for me DS is something contrary or something as if you are all the forces but not the one who deal with forces, i can't describe this better.

Quote from: passerBy on May 12, 2017, 06:38:42 PM
Maybe holding a joypad and twiddling the thumbsticks feels in any way similar to riding a bike?

better than keyboard, not bad for delicate movements and you still can learn a lot about bike behaviour. ofc, if you are able to oversee your actions. btw overseeing may evolve and it does better in hardcore competition, experienced racer sees more.

Quote from: passerBy on May 12, 2017, 06:38:42 PM
What about cars? Why not drive them using the joypad too then? Just crank up all the steering helpers and race around. Who cares about immersion when you can win in a competitive match, right?

cars can be controlled with joypads, just requires a lot of training to be smooth. btw helpers won't let you win actually.

Quote from: passerBy on May 12, 2017, 06:38:42 PM

Quotei'm all for the most realistic handling, physics and so on. there is nothing about worrying for lap times compared to others, it's not my psychology. as i said before: i can accept handling system if it brings the same realistic result (lap time) after same realistic effort put into it (training intensity) and it feels natural for my mind since first start. DS fails here. i tried it several times hoping for best and i quit.

And what is a realistic effort? Consider you are learning to ride a bike from the start.

i see the effort as process of learning very very detailed list of rules/knowledge taking from practice in many situations (corners, speeds). someone could say 'rules are quite simple and basic, there is a lot of feelings which cant be described'. i think feelings in racing are the result of learning detailed rules and everything can be described in every detail, feeling grows up after full understanding a rule. sorry for demagogy - just wanna to avoid misunderstanding. if you want to hear some time frames, i think i could give some theoretical values\approximations just to compare and imagine something close to reality. i will tell about the case when some smart guy finally understand how to be fast on every track (once he got it known) and do close fights against others without crash during a race of 20 laps on 1000cc sportbike even in rainy weather. bold for some words - to show that these conditions are very important. IRL it may take ~8-10 years with 2-3 training sessions per week with someone who can deliver some quality theory (ignore physical condition, assume it's perfect). in a proper simulation the same level of skill can be reached in ~2-3 years (3 days per week with 2-3 hours of practice) because you are allowed to fall and fly and push like crazy mofo repeating everything 10000 times without dying or even being tired after 1 hour, so you learn bike behavior much much faster. with DS i doubt much that you will ever be able to do victoria 20 laps hardcore race with 1:30 time every lap on 990 (record is a bit less than 1:27 afaik in the sim for def steering). note: this beed said not for the sake of showing who is da God ov fast lapz, this is for some serious skill and experience with strong passion for riding and racing.

Quote from: passerBy on May 12, 2017, 06:38:42 PM
I don't have a real bike experience, partially because of my own set of health considerations, partially due to the financial side of things and due to the logistics involved. Basically, I had to start learning to ride a bike.

okay, got it.

Quote from: passerBy on May 12, 2017, 06:38:42 PM
Consistency and "stable laps" are not about me at all :) Even in the car sims I could be hardly bothered to go for consistency...
...And yes, I'm perfectly aware that it should be more like 1:30, but let's say I don't care about the lap times a lot :) My priority is rather feeling the bike and having fun rather than reaching certain lap times. Otherwise that will turn it into a job, and I don't want that.

riding really fast is a big fun as well but it's a hard job even on def steering :)

Quote from: passerBy on May 12, 2017, 06:38:42 PM
The best bikes for DS so far, in my opinion, are the KTM, the "Murasama", the 600 cc "Blade" and the classic Augusta. The Yamaha from the same set as the RC8 is good too. The MotoGP 2015 bikes are probably the best, but they feel a bit too precise for my taste... From the WSBK 2017 set the Aprilia is very stable (but the Ducati is more fun).
For MXB that "OEM" 2003 Suzuki is very nice. The 2016 Yamahas are not bad either.

and seems that you miss many others just because they do not work good with DS. sad!

Quote from: passerBy on May 12, 2017, 06:38:42 PM

Quote
we don't know actual reason why he did that. at least he got license so he should know what to do.

Not everyone having the license knows what to do... Well, judging by the video that rider also tried to act intuitively, which brought him straight into the truck. I think it's one of the most important things to learn what exactly happens when you try to steer the bike. Also I think that riding games could potentially kill riders in those situations. He got that urge to turn right from somewhere, after all.

i think his case is not a good example for our discussion, not because of ethics, just because we can't know for sure what and why he did.

Quote from: passerBy on May 12, 2017, 06:38:42 PM
The problem is, I couldn't feel the bike at all in anything but GPB/MXB with DS2 with force-feedback. Not having a real life reference probably influenced that greatly.

pushbike too?

Quote from: passerBy on May 12, 2017, 06:38:42 PM
Then again, imagine you never been on a bike before (and probably never will). Would you go for the default steering or for the DS?

really hard to tell then. DS is fun just because it's hard, i like hard games but def steering is simpler for sure and may seem more logical.

Quote from: loinen on May 13, 2017, 10:29:39 PM

Quote from: passerBy on May 12, 2017, 06:38:42 PM

Quote from: loinen on May 11, 2017, 07:47:16 AM
it doesnt feel and look the same as IRL, it doesn't bring proper result in proper amount of time with proper effort spent at the end. that's why i cant call it realistic. theoretically it is but practically it isnt.

I already said that such a wheel doesn't represent properly the feel of an RL wheel and it behaves differently, yet you don't mind using it for car sims.

in car sims our wheels are still good enough to learn driving skills, especially with correct code written for FFB. and these wheels with def steering are okay ('okay'!) to use in GPB if you want to learn what will happen to a bike if you do this or that.

If they were good enough, we would have it much easier when it comes to correcting the skids or learning to drift. Normally, in a car with a big enough castor angle you'd barely have to touch the wheel at all after initiating a drift (as can be seen on some YouTube videos). In a typical car sim using at least the G27, I have to do a lot of work myself to keep the front wheels where they need to be. Even though I almost don't realize it now, after all the learning I've done before, but when I tried to teach the aforementioned young guy to drift, he was unable to grasp how it's done (yet he does very well in MXB, so you can't just write him off easily).
There is a possibility that G25s are better for drifting than G27s, as I once heard, but I highly doubt that. And if they are, they will most likely be better for DS too.

Using a wheel with default steering in GPB makes absolutely no sense to me. The biggest asset of a force feedback wheel controller is, well, the force feedback itself. With the default steering FFB makes no sense whatsoever: you'll be getting something completely unrelated to your input. Same thing with DS1, by the way, as the input and output will be provided "in different formats". Only in DS2 you get what you would expect for the current wheel angle and the rider torque applied.

Quote

Quote from: passerBy on May 12, 2017, 06:38:42 PM
Whatever you use for flight sims is even farther from what an actual pilot uses.

for X52pro device or hardcore custom stuff it's not that far, if we talk about e.g. Su-27 and main tools to control speed and direction of a jet like rudders, throttle lever, even pedals can be added. ah, buttons on panels are not authentic, yes. i think it's not so critical.

X52 Pro is a complete and utter toy compared even to a serious enthusiast grade controller (which in itself is about as far from the real deal as the X52 is far from the said controller). Come on, it's just a cheap plasticky thingie with one of the worst mechanisms to make it come to the center. It's light, it's short... It's based on pots, after all. And it provides no FFB. I'm, for one, is against adding FFB to the current low-end flight controllers, but for the proper experience you need to have it all: proper FFB, hydraulic dampening, magnetic lock force trimming (this one for helicopters).
X52 is just a glorified gamepad. It won't tell you a single thing about how the actual controls feel and behave. A Logitech wheel in the DS2 mode, however, will give you quite a good idea of what to expect of the bars, if you know how to treat the info it provides.

Quote

Quote from: passerBy on May 12, 2017, 06:38:42 PM
Not sure what you mean with the "proper result in a proper amount of time".

example. many guys in MX Sim complain that they cant be stable with helpers (in advanced stability) set to 50% even after 2-3 years. i myself spent ~year for mxsim of almost everyday 2-3 hours of intense training with pro setup and i'm still not able to reach pro times (10-15 seconds slower then they are) and i cant even do my best time lap by lap. my friend is one of the fastest, kinda pro rider in MX Sim, participating in championships, it seems he knows or remembers and can easily do fast lap on almost every track released for the game, he spent more than 3 years for wanking out MX Sim. But he cant do race with other pros without falling, nobody can do, pro riders in MX Sim fall a lot. this is improper result with improper amount of time spent to reach this result.

Well, I totally agree with you. I didn't need a whole year to understand that MXS' steering is useless. I regret buying that thing. Although, it gave me the idea that something similar could prove useful for GPB when done right, so you could kind of say the investment paid off.
Again, MXS has a steering similar to directsteer=1. Not the second mode. That's two completely different things. Yes, if there was a controller Max described, that would provide an amount of resistance to turning on par with the real handlebars, also FFB and would take the torque as an input, that would be the best possible way to control a bike sim. Nobody made such a controller yet. Therefore, the DS mode 2 is the way to go. If you'd invested just a couple of days or maybe a week into DS2 specifically, setting your wheel angle to 50 while keeping max_angle at 25, you'd see for yourself. At some point you stop dropping the bike "for a reason unknown". You proceed to improve your lap times or whatever it is you want to improve.

Quote

Quote from: passerBy on May 12, 2017, 06:38:42 PM
You use the autopilot which needs to be told about the bike lean first before it could start assuming the said angle. You call that a "proper result in a proper amount of time"? Ok, maybe the PID-based DS is a little more latent than the direct torque value input, but it's still miles ahead of the autopilot in terms of sheer immediacy.

autopilot is that kind of hanling when you turn on brake help, steering help, throttle help, rider auto lean. if all this is off it's not an autopilot. i think calling that helper for max angle as 'autopilot' is incorrect. BTW i still can throw bike to the ground in MXB and GPB with def steering mode.

I think you have an improper understanding of what an autopilot is. For example, mentioned by you earlier Ka-50 and Su-27 both employ autopilots by default. In fact, you'd have a hard time flying the latter with the autopilot off, because the Flanker would tend to do the "Cobras" every time you'd get silly with the pitch control. And it considers everything but very small inputs as "silly", thanks to its peculiar airframe. Even the Hip is meant to fly with the autopilot on. As is the Gazelle. Only the Huey doesn't have that thing installed (talking about helos only). And to be honest, doesn't need it. That's why I can't recommend it more.
When it comes to modern helicopters, it's usually called SAS, or Stability Augmentation System. And basically anything that gets between you and at least one of the controlling channels to modify your input to make the controlling easier is an autopilot. And the AI between you and the bars in the default steering mode in GPB is much more than just that. It doesn't just augment your input, it actually translates it from one format to another. From "I want the bike to be leant over at this angle" to a series of torque changes over time. That's a very big deal. Something similar for a helicopter would take the cyclic inputs and treat the angle as the amount of horizontal speed in the appropriate direction you want to make. Hence, to hover in place you'd simply let go of the cyclic (a certain way to kill yourself in an actual helo), whereas with no autopilot to save the say, the amount of work needed to make the damn thing stay in the same spot is so big, you'll hardly have time to remember about breathing when you just started to learn hovering a helicopter.

You really need to try that at some point. Get yourself either the DCS UH-1, or the Mi-8 (don't forget to turn off the autopilot or simply don't turn it on), or the Gazelle (same thing with the SAS), and try hovering it. Then tell me it's much easier to do than DS'ing it out in GPB. But hey, nobody in DCS is complaining about that (at least those who came for a sim). Because that's how you fly helos. Might as well try reading "Chickenhawk". When I started learning to hover the Huey, I had almost absolutely the same experience as described by the author (of course he started in a lighter trainer 'copter, but at least he had g-forces and real life controls at his disposal).

Quote

Quote from: passerBy on May 12, 2017, 06:38:42 PM
The amount of effort required purely depends on your controller FFB. Don't have a high-end wheel (me neither)? Then don't complain about how bad it is at rendering the forces and at discerning the angles fed into the system. That's the sole reason why "practically, it isn't."

the reason of "practically, it isn't." is that i dont like that method of leaning when e.g. to lean left i should turn my wheel to the right then to the left, the bike immediately starts to fall and i should turn my wheel to the left. who can call this realistic handling system? it's perversion.

Let's start with that at least the first part of that is similar to the reality. Isn't it? You turn (or at least attempt to) the bars to the right in RL too. Then the bike leans left and that makes the bars to turn left as well a certain amount. A G27 (and I assume G25 too) has very crappy FFB abilities, but even more so in the center. So, given that you don't want to pay for a better wheel, you have to do a part of the job yourself (remember what I was saying about drifting on a Logitech wheel?). Also, you are most likely not being smooth enough on the controls while doing all that. The real bike's bars are much harder to turn (especially at speed), so you can be pretty generous with the forces applied by your arms. In the sim you can easily snap the wheel to a lock at speed, and the PID will try to follow the suit. You wouldn't want to attempt to replicate that in RL, because you'd also "suddenly fall".

My technique to the turns (at the moment) is as follows.
- locate the entry point at the opposite side of the track
- initiate braking while sitting upright (don't slam on the brakes)
- at a certain point hang off to the inside while still braking
- the braking will try to bring the bike back up, your hanging off will do the opposite, overpowering the previous force
- listen to the force feedback: it will tell you the limits of what you are doing
- once the needed lean angle is achieved make a smooth transition from the brake to the throttle (it's ok for them to overlap a bit)
- start rolling on the throttle as steep as possible (especially on dry tarmac on soft tyres)
- turn the wheel inside the bend to straighten the bike up, and only when the lean angle is small enough get your rider back in the seat

At least this is how it works for me. I hardly do any steering at all while going through the bend if everything was done properly, and I don't have to care about sudden drops of the bike. Well, at least if the suspension setup makes sense and the track is not a bumpy mess.

Another important point. Once I started the entry and am braking into the corner, I find the apex and vary the braking pressure such as to pass the apex as close as possible.
So, thanks to this direct steering mode I learned trail-braking and how to control my trajectory through the bend. With the default steering it was always a mystery to me, I would hardly be able to approach the inner kerb at all without crossing it. Granted, I'm still far from doing that perfectly, but I'm still learning... and I realize this wheel is not particularly precise.

Quotei used 'newbie' as i feel this word not so poisonous as 'noob'

That doesn't really make a lot of difference.

Quoteactually meant someone who can't perform on the highest level of skills. you do not play competitively. competitive play (with strongest racers, for the win) change your mind, it trains your personality a lot, hardcore racers sees racing very different from a casual rider. no matter virtual or real here. and it also gives your some really deep understanding of how everything works or\and should work.

When you can't focus on the riding itself, it can hardly help you to understand it at all. You need to be thinking to understand, not competing. Watching your own mistakes from a side, analyzing them. Trying to make it to the podium would help to do anything but that. Sure, you have a prior RL riding experience, and that is what really helps. A friend of mine who is also an RL rider tried GPB with DS2 (albeit with a better wheel) at my recommendation. I was shocked how good he was after what I suppose was just hours of riding in it. And it was beta 5 or close to that... He would still fall sometimes, but it was an earlier beta. Maybe with those up and downslope problems still in place. Too bad he quit this in the same fashion I did in 2013 and Klax did after me, but I'm sure if he tried this beta with my settings, it would bring him back into the sim. 

Quote

Quote from: passerBy on May 12, 2017, 06:38:42 PM
But switch the direct steering on, and there you have it -- a good amount of steering fun, which is fun in itself. Plus some FFB that makes sense (at least compared to any other mode).

exactly. fun in itself, nothing more.

What do you want then? Podiums? Prizes? That stuff is only good for boosting one's ego. Having fun is much more important. And challenging fun is the proper kind of fun. It also helps you to become a better person, whereas beating others works the other way around.

Ok, looks like I hit the limit and need to split the message...

The continuation...

Quote

Quote
And the default steering feels more the same way you feel in RL?

here is a simple example why i feel it the same or, okay, if not the same, then at least the closest way i feel in RL. this short video is in Russian (i'm from Russia) but you don't need to listen, simply watch it on 2:05 a little bit. it's natural for me to turn (=apply pressure to left bar with left hand) my Logitech G25 simply left to turn the bike left, all the way right - for the right, nothing more, simple as 2+2. someone can say: you don't apply pressure, you push! i think it's not so important. for me DS is something contrary or something as if you are all the forces but not the one who deal with forces, i can't describe this better.

When you turn your G25 left, you actually pull on its left side, not push it. That's the opposite thing to what you do in RL. Imagine the same wheel installed on your bike instead of the bars. You'd want to turn it right, not left in this situation. If you'd somehow manage to turn your RL bike's bars all the way to the right at speed, I suppose you know what would follow...

With DS2 I push on my G27's left to go left. Almost exactly like the guy in the video shows. Of course, handlebars are inclined much more horizontally than the wheel, but my arms are also at an angle, so in the end I still push on the left to go left (even if this push is directed upwards). I could think something up to attach the wheel to the table more vertically and maybe clamp some kind of a stick on across the wheel, but I don't care all that much about the wheel not being handlebars and not sticking out of the table vertically. I just switch my imagination on and envision the wheel being the bars and that instead of pushing the pedals with my feet I operate the levers with my hands :)

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Quote from: passerBy on May 12, 2017, 06:38:42 PM
Maybe holding a joypad and twiddling the thumbsticks feels in any way similar to riding a bike?

better than keyboard, not bad for delicate movements and you still can learn a lot about bike behaviour. ofc, if you are able to oversee your actions. btw overseeing may evolve and it does better in hardcore competition, experienced racer sees more.

Better than a keyboard, no doubt. But we weren't discussing keyboards. Furthermore, I'd say that a gamepad is still better than the wheel, but only with either the default steering or with the directsteer=1. A joystick can be even better.

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Quote from: passerBy on May 12, 2017, 06:38:42 PM
What about cars? Why not drive them using the joypad too then? Just crank up all the steering helpers and race around. Who cares about immersion when you can win in a competitive match, right?

cars can be controlled with joypads, just requires a lot of training to be smooth. btw helpers won't let you win actually.

To be honest, helpers kill me (at least using the wheel)... There were two times already when in the ISI-based sims I'd accidentally press F1 while hitting Escape, then couldn't figure out how come I'm suddenly that bad at driving :) And it only took the Steering Help to be switched from None to Low. After that I always remove the functional keys assignments for good...

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And what is a realistic effort? Consider you are learning to ride a bike from the start.

i see the effort as process of learning very very detailed list of rules/knowledge taking from practice in many situations (corners, speeds). someone could say 'rules are quite simple and basic, there is a lot of feelings which cant be described'. i think feelings in racing are the result of learning detailed rules and everything can be described in every detail, feeling grows up after full understanding a rule. sorry for demagogy - just wanna to avoid misunderstanding. if you want to hear some time frames, i think i could give some theoretical values\approximations just to compare and imagine something close to reality. i will tell about the case when some smart guy finally understand how to be fast on every track (once he got it known) and do close fights against others without crash during a race of 20 laps on 1000cc sportbike even in rainy weather. bold for some words - to show that these conditions are very important. IRL it may take ~8-10 years with 2-3 training sessions per week with someone who can deliver some quality theory (ignore physical condition, assume it's perfect). in a proper simulation the same level of skill can be reached in ~2-3 years (3 days per week with 2-3 hours of practice) because you are allowed to fall and fly and push like crazy mofo repeating everything 10000 times without dying or even being tired after 1 hour, so you learn bike behavior much much faster. with DS i doubt much that you will ever be able to do victoria 20 laps hardcore race with 1:30 time every lap on 990 (record is a bit less than 1:27 afaik in the sim for def steering). note: this beed said not for the sake of showing who is da God ov fast lapz, this is for some serious skill and experience with strong passion for riding and racing.

As I said, a proper sim is more difficult than reality. Imagine a robot put on a bike, and you have to use its camera and actuate the bars and levers remotely with a separate set of those. A closest to reality sim is the same thing, but everything you control is modeled mathematically. Hence, it would be not 2 to 3 years, but rather something around 20 maybe... But that only if you actually care for racing, doing the same laps people do in RL, taking podiums.
Alternatively, if you still want to compete, you could settle for worse lap times. Forget RL, virtuality has its own rules. Otherwise, forget virtuality. It's either dumbing it down to make it more suitable for RL operators, or getting to know it better and being content with what you can achieve with what you have.

Basically, a simulator is like being disabled. You don't expect to outrun a healthy person if you are on crutches, right? Especially if that person is a world champion in running... Same here. You simply cannot expect to do better laps in a sim than a real racer does in RL. Of course, you have the safety net of not dying after hitting a wall at speed, for example, but even if the aforementioned runner on crutches will be caught every time he falls down, it would be a miracle for him to get up to speed at least with amateur runners.

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riding really fast is a big fun as well but it's a hard job even on def steering :)

Totally agree it's a hard job. As I already mentioned, default steering never gave me any proper idea on how to ride a bike in ANY sim or game. It always felt weird. I felt probably more disconnected from the bike than during watching MotoGP onboards. So, it's a wrong kind of hard. Like that steering helper that kicked in and made me think I forgot how to drive simulated cars at all.

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Quote from: passerBy on May 12, 2017, 06:38:42 PM
The best bikes for DS so far, in my opinion, are the KTM, the "Murasama", the 600 cc "Blade" and the classic Augusta. The Yamaha from the same set as the RC8 is good too. The MotoGP 2015 bikes are probably the best, but they feel a bit too precise for my taste... From the WSBK 2017 set the Aprilia is very stable (but the Ducati is more fun).
For MXB that "OEM" 2003 Suzuki is very nice. The 2016 Yamahas are not bad either.

and seems that you miss many others just because they do not work good with DS. sad!

Actually, not. I don't say the rest are impossible to ride. I even tried some experimenting today and took the "bad behavers" to the track to see if anything changed. The videos follow in the next post :)

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Quote from: passerBy on May 12, 2017, 06:38:42 PM

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we don't know actual reason why he did that. at least he got license so he should know what to do.

Not everyone having the license knows what to do... Well, judging by the video that rider also tried to act intuitively, which brought him straight into the truck. I think it's one of the most important things to learn what exactly happens when you try to steer the bike. Also I think that riding games could potentially kill riders in those situations. He got that urge to turn right from somewhere, after all.

i think his case is not a good example for our discussion, not because of ethics, just because we can't know for sure what and why he did.

Unless he tried to kill himself on purpose, I'd say it was pretty clear that his non-countersteering thinking kicked in at a very wrong time.

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Quote from: passerBy on May 12, 2017, 06:38:42 PM
The problem is, I couldn't feel the bike at all in anything but GPB/MXB with DS2 with force-feedback. Not having a real life reference probably influenced that greatly.

pushbike too?

As a kid I clocked in enough hours on bicycles. Actually, that's what saves me in MXB and in low speed situations in GPB: when I start falling to a side, I turn the wheel (and bars) to that side pretty much like I did on the bicycles. Another reason I consider DS2 to be very natural in execution.

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Quote from: passerBy on May 12, 2017, 06:38:42 PM
Then again, imagine you never been on a bike before (and probably never will). Would you go for the default steering or for the DS?

really hard to tell then. DS is fun just because it's hard, i like hard games but def steering is simpler for sure and may seem more logical.

I still wonder if you'd be able to understand bikes as good if you only used the default steering in that situation.

Ok then. So, after reading the post I wanted to see what it would be like if I tried to take the bikes I had the most problems with to the track right away and see what happens.

For the "Varese" I swapped the tyres for the softs and made the suspension a bit softer as well. The other two go in the default setups.

http://www.youtube.com/v/j4gXCTaaBm4
1:50

http://www.youtube.com/v/Al_4oTa2Gz4
1:57
That going out of pits... Well, still not used to light bikes.

http://www.youtube.com/v/0tRMhm2QzMM
1:56
Yes, this Kawa gave me surprisingly more headache than I expected. But as you can even see from the video, the default suspension setup is not what I'd call a smooth ride... The bike itself is pretty much an alpha. And I haven't had much time with these three bikes in a while.

I think this supplements my hypothesis that new bikes should be tested in DS first and foremost quite strongly.

Quote from: passerBy on May 14, 2017, 06:43:06 PM
If they were good enough, we would have it much easier when it comes to correcting the skids or learning to drift. Normally, in a car with a big enough castor angle you'd barely have to touch the wheel at all after initiating a drift (as can be seen on some YouTube videos). In a typical car sim using at least the G27, I have to do a lot of work myself to keep the front wheels where they need to be. Even though I almost don't realize it now, after all the learning I've done before, but when I tried to teach the aforementioned young guy to drift, he was unable to grasp how it's done (yet he does very well in MXB, so you can't just write him off easily).
There is a possibility that G25s are better for drifting than G27s, as I once heard, but I highly doubt that. And if they are, they will most likely be better for DS too.

car behaviour while drifting depends on which suspension setup is applied to the car, castor angle is not so important. ARBs and springs do a lot of work, tyres too. I had RL racing experience and at the moment of it i was pretty strong virtual racer with good physical condition (trained a lot in a gym) with no real car driving exp at all. At first start real car seemed totally different to me but that was due to new feelings coming to my body, they confused me as i never felt them before, once they were filtered, after few laps, i noticed that car handling IRL is not that different from virtual in terms of technique (braking, throttling, wheel control, even FFB was pretty close, not in strength but in the informational part), and my virtual skills helped me a lot - at the end of first session i was second, even faster than all those guys who already raced the track before, they drove everyday cars from home to their workplace and back. we all were not many years professional racers IRL (and i was the only virtual racer there) but results told me that my practice with logitech g25 was not waste of time, it actually gave me a lot.

Quote from: passerBy on May 14, 2017, 06:43:06 PM
Using a wheel with default steering in GPB makes absolutely no sense to me. The biggest asset of a force feedback wheel controller is, well, the force feedback itself. With the default steering FFB makes no sense whatsoever: you'll be getting something completely unrelated to your input.

at least after getting used to it i easily undestand what happens to my bike, especially to the rear end.

Quote from: passerBy on May 14, 2017, 06:43:06 PM
X52 Pro is a complete and utter toy compared even to a serious enthusiast grade controller (which in itself is about as far from the real deal as the X52 is far from the said controller). Come on, it's just a cheap plasticky thingie with one of the worst mechanisms to make it come to the center. It's light, it's short... It's based on pots, after all. And it provides no FFB. I'm, for one, is against adding FFB to the current low-end flight controllers, but for the proper experience you need to have it all: proper FFB, hydraulic dampening, magnetic lock force trimming (this one for helicopters).
X52 is just a glorified gamepad. It won't tell you a single thing about how the actual controls feel and behave.

seems that we are talking about different things all the time. all my words are coming from the thoughts about learning handling technique, vehicle behavior with control methods which are easy to get accustomed and do not fall in total contradiction with my perception. X52 for Su-27, G25 for car, DD's bars for bike (and even pad or car wheel) are enough to learn and absolutely enough for hardcore competition despite the fact they do not bring 100% identical feel or immersion or whatever. your thougths seem something totally different and probably that's why we still talk so much about DS and what is realistic however i already said so much about why DS in any mode is not natural even being 100% calculated correctly in terms of physics/maths.

Quote from: passerBy on May 14, 2017, 06:43:06 PM
Therefore, the DS mode 2 is the way to go. If you'd invested just a couple of days or maybe a week into DS2 specifically, setting your wheel angle to 50 while keeping max_angle at 25, you'd see for yourself. At some point you stop dropping the bike "for a reason unknown". You proceed to improve your lap times or whatever it is you want to improve.

i have no problems with unknown reasons of bike falling in DS2 mode. I just see that it's very far from my perception of natural bike control and i will never be stable and fast with this control method. that's all. btw this is also seen from your videos (thank you for posting them), you are not smooth in handling, this is kinda merit of your control method. for the record, if you havent watched this video by SimUK, maybe you'll find it interesting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_Vh_vsRYWs

Quote from: passerBy on May 14, 2017, 06:43:06 PM
I think you have an improper understanding of what an autopilot is. For example, mentioned by you earlier Ka-50 and Su-27 both employ autopilots by default...

i think autopilot in GPB do not steal too much from your control of bike and autopilots in DCS are something really different.

Quote from: passerBy on May 14, 2017, 06:43:06 PM
When you can't focus on the riding itself, it can hardly help you to understand it at all. You need to be thinking to understand, not competing. Watching your own mistakes from a side, analyzing them. Trying to make it to the podium would help to do anything but that.

competing is the next stage after watching mistakes, analyzing, thinking, understanding and even working them out to automatism.

Quote from: passerBy on May 14, 2017, 06:43:06 PM
What do you want then? Podiums? Prizes? That stuff is only good for boosting one's ego. Having fun is much more important. And challenging fun is the proper kind of fun. It also helps you to become a better person, whereas beating others works the other way around.

there is nothing about ego. even podiums are not important. i love competition for the beauty of the battle of masterhood, for emotions, for personal improvement during the process of learning how to fight, it's some kind of philosophy. you seem to look like a single player mode user, me - not, so i think we should stop the discussion coz now things are clear and there is no reason to continue.

Quote from: loinen on May 17, 2017, 12:49:24 PMcar behaviour while drifting depends on which suspension setup is applied to the car, castor angle is not so important.

You have missed my point. Castor angle is what makes the front wheels want to go in line with the skidding. Yes, you could just saw at the wheel frantically, but having the steering mostly doing this work for you sounds better, or doesn't it? Especially when you are left with "Degrees Of Rotation" far greater than 900.

QuoteARBs and springs do a lot of work, tyres too.

That's obvious, but theoretically speaking, you could drift pretty much anything with real wheel drive. So, you could say that nothing is really important.

QuoteI had RL racing experience and at the moment of it i was pretty strong virtual racer with good physical condition (trained a lot in a gym) with no real car driving exp at all. At first start real car seemed totally different to me but that was due to new feelings coming to my body, they confused me as i never felt them before, once they were filtered, after few laps, i noticed that car handling IRL is not that different from virtual in terms of technique (braking, throttling, wheel control, even FFB was pretty close, not in strength but in the informational part), and my virtual skills helped me a lot - at the end of first session i was second, even faster than all those guys who already raced the track before, they drove everyday cars from home to their workplace and back. we all were not many years professional racers IRL (and i was the only virtual racer there) but results told me that my practice with logitech g25 was not waste of time, it actually gave me a lot.

Again, my point wasn't that the aforementioned controllers are useless when it comes to dealing with reality. In fact, if what you said above is true, that only proves the theory that simming is not at all useless.
My point was that if you are ok with the level of abstraction either your X52 or the G25 forces you to deal with (not to mention an XBox controller), I see no reason why the same G25 would magically throw your suspension of disbelief off when it comes to the controller feel, once applied to GPB with DS.

Quote

Quote from: passerBy on May 14, 2017, 06:43:06 PM
Using a wheel with default steering in GPB makes absolutely no sense to me. The biggest asset of a force feedback wheel controller is, well, the force feedback itself. With the default steering FFB makes no sense whatsoever: you'll be getting something completely unrelated to your input.

at least after getting used to it i easily undestand what happens to my bike, especially to the rear end.

That sounds more in the vein of your own statement about people adopting weird techniques because they refuse to know any better, honestly...

Quoteseems that we are talking about different things all the time. all my words are coming from the thoughts about learning handling technique

Oh, and mine aren't? Steering is quite a big part of the handling... Some would even argue, the biggest part of it.

Quotevehicle behavior with control methods which are easy to get accustomed and do not fall in total contradiction with my perception

Why should they follow your perception in particular? Between a perception of someone on the net and the perception that comes as a result of mathematical modelling, I'd rather go with the latter. Especially when it's a facility provided by the sim author himself.

QuoteX52 for Su-27, G25 for car, DD's bars for bike (and even pad or car wheel) are enough to learn and absolutely enough for hardcore competition despite the fact they do not bring 100% identical feel or immersion or whatever. your thougths seem something totally different and probably that's why we still talk so much about DS and what is realistic however i already said so much about why DS in any mode is not natural even being 100% calculated correctly in terms of physics/maths.

My thoughts are just coming from the theory behind motorcycles (and the experience with bicycles). Not to mention that even the GPB's autopilot in the end has to deal with DS (even though it's DS1, not DS2). You are simply putting a barrier between you and DS like that, but can't exactly get around it. And from what you said, I couldn't get a single idea about what is so wrong with DS in your opinion, apart maybe from the tendency of the bike to try to fall to a side on braking to lower speeds. But then again, if you do the braking properly, that tendency can be alleviated. Though I agree that the threshold is kind of abrupt. Not something I would expect from losing the gyro support of the wheels while coming to lower speeds. Maybe the modelling is not quite perfect at the moment... Still, it's either you or the autopilot who is going to deal with this. Personally, I prefer to do that directly. The less proxies, the better (hence, no anti-wheeling or TCS in my riding either).

Quotei have no problems with unknown reasons of bike falling in DS2 mode. I just see that it's very far from my perception of natural bike control and i will never be stable and fast with this control method. that's all. btw this is also seen from your videos (thank you for posting them), you are not smooth in handling, this is kinda merit of your control method.

What do you expect of a cheap wheel? If you want smoothness, get a direct-drive wheel. Or at least one of those Thrustmasters...
To be honest, I think you are turning this into a bigger problem than it really is. And if the majority of riders would use a similar setup, they would all be evenly disadvantaged. So, in the end it would still be the question of skill. Yes, some would use better wheels. But they use them for car sims too. And that doesn't necessarily make them go faster.
As for me personally, I agree, partially it is due to the wheel. Especially when the FFB goes wild in some corners... But you are forgetting the time I've spent learning riding like this (not to mention other disadvantages), or the lack thereof. Give me a year, and we'll see how bad or good will I be then. For now, I'd say I'm having quite a nice progress, considering all the things that do not play in my favor (plenty of them).

I post the videos because I feel it's important to show what a typical person's learning curve looks like exactly over time. In my opinion, Klax did a huge mistake with posting his. Even though he mentioned the hard learning process, you can hardly see him actually learning to DS.
And if I would come here after him and had no prior experience with what he calls DST, watched the videos and tried it myself, I think that would have a great chance of discouraging me from learning further. That's why I'm doing the opposite now. And with a more appropriate form of direct steering in mind.

Quotefor the record, if you havent watched this video by SimUK, maybe you'll find it interesting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_Vh_vsRYWs

Not only did I find it interesting (saw that video when it was out), I also tried to convince the guy (on more than one occasion) to try DS. No luck so far...
But take a closer look at his brother. He's obviously having problems in the beginning with the default steering... Now I wonder... If DD's bars had some direct drive wheel level FFB and they tried running GPB with DS2... How that would change the outcome? Something tells me he would actually have much less problem getting the thing going right from the start.

Quote

Quote from: passerBy on May 14, 2017, 06:43:06 PM
I think you have an improper understanding of what an autopilot is. For example, mentioned by you earlier Ka-50 and Su-27 both employ autopilots by default...

i think autopilot in GPB do not steal too much from your control of bike and autopilots in DCS are something really different.

Autopilots in DCS (excluding the 'hold' ones, like altitude hold, heading hold, etc.) do even less than the GPB's one does. And I already described why. Aircraft SAS is more about dampening out unneeded motion, or (in case of the Flanker) to prevent the pilot from going over certain threshold. The autopilot in GPB is more of a lean hold (or roll hold, if you will), and that means actually taking control of the bike.

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Quote from: passerBy on May 14, 2017, 06:43:06 PM
When you can't focus on the riding itself, it can hardly help you to understand it at all. You need to be thinking to understand, not competing. Watching your own mistakes from a side, analyzing them. Trying to make it to the podium would help to do anything but that.

competing is the next stage after watching mistakes, analyzing, thinking, understanding and even working them out to automatism.

I could probably agree with you, but I still strongly stand on the opinion that it's only then is serious, when there are no (or almost no, considering DS2 being slightly "indirect") corners cut in the previous stage.

Quote

Quote from: passerBy on May 14, 2017, 06:43:06 PM
What do you want then? Podiums? Prizes? That stuff is only good for boosting one's ego. Having fun is much more important. And challenging fun is the proper kind of fun. It also helps you to become a better person, whereas beating others works the other way around.

there is nothing about ego. even podiums are not important. i love competition for the beauty of the battle of masterhood, for emotions, for personal improvement during the process of learning how to fight, it's some kind of philosophy. you seem to look like a single player mode user, me - not, so i think we should stop the discussion coz now things are clear and there is no reason to continue.

If I was a competitive type, I'd be much more ashamed of using a helper, to be honest, especially calling it a battle of masterhood like that... But if you insist on using it nonetheless, there's nothing I can do about that. But it would be best if you'd abstain from calling DS "unrealistic".  And if it is, how exactly is having an AI layer between you and DS makes it more realistic?

Time for some progress report :)

http://www.youtube.com/v/JwRdqLBrqkU
I won't hide it, I like Manu's bikes. I don't quite like MotoGP ones, however... And with this one I'm struggling to find understanding: sometimes it tries to cut the corner short, most of the time it goes out of the corner too wide... At least it seems I can fix the latter developing more finesse over the throttle application.
One thing is certain though, I really like this particular MotoGP bike.

Here come more lengthy vids. Pardon my still not knowing how to perform a U-turn on a narrow road.
http://www.youtube.com/v/r3hn5Wy2llc

http://www.youtube.com/v/W8eBxGaOaIs
It really is more narrow than it should be, or isn't it?

http://www.youtube.com/v/O7p1I-Xlvas

Quote from: passerBy on May 18, 2017, 05:37:30 PM
You have missed my point. Castor angle is what makes the front wheels want to go in line with the skidding. Yes, you could just saw at the wheel frantically, but having the steering mostly doing this work for you sounds better, or doesn't it? Especially when you are left with "Degrees Of Rotation" far greater than 900.

i said the wheels are good enough. you probably said they are not good enough because... and then i said that i think they are good enough because of my RL exp. if you cant go in line with the skidding this is almost certainly not a problem of your wheel.

Quote from: passerBy on May 18, 2017, 05:37:30 PM
Again, my point wasn't that the aforementioned controllers are useless when it comes to dealing with reality. In fact, if what you said above is true, that only proves the theory that simming is not at all useless.

i didnt think that you said they are useless.

Quote from: passerBy on May 18, 2017, 05:37:30 PM
My point was that if you are ok with the level of abstraction either your X52 or the G25 forces you to deal with (not to mention an XBox controller), I see no reason why the same G25 would magically throw your suspension of disbelief off when it comes to the controller feel, once applied to GPB with DS.

because DS training is a waste of time at the end.

Quote from: passerBy on May 18, 2017, 05:37:30 PM

Quote

Quote from: passerBy on May 14, 2017, 06:43:06 PM
Using a wheel with default steering in GPB makes absolutely no sense to me. The biggest asset of a force feedback wheel controller is, well, the force feedback itself. With the default steering FFB makes no sense whatsoever: you'll be getting something completely unrelated to your input.

at least after getting used to it i easily undestand what happens to my bike, especially to the rear end.

That sounds more in the vein of your own statement about people adopting weird techniques because they refuse to know any better, honestly...

no, it doesn't. you're trying to see what you would like to see here.

Quote from: passerBy on May 18, 2017, 05:37:30 PM

Quoteseems that we are talking about different things all the time. all my words are coming from the thoughts about learning handling technique

Oh, and mine aren't? Steering is quite a big part of the handling... Some would even argue, the biggest part of it.

seems that you are mostly worrying about steering technique. from a bike's point of view :D

Quote from: passerBy on May 18, 2017, 05:37:30 PM

Quotevehicle behavior with control methods which are easy to get accustomed and do not fall in total contradiction with my perception

Why should they follow your perception in particular? Between a perception of someone on the net and the perception that comes as a result of mathematical modelling, I'd rather go with the latter. Especially when it's a facility provided by the sim author himself.

they should not follow my perception. i just said that i'm okay with them due to my RL exp. DS is shit as it is but you can go with whatever you want ofc.

Quote from: passerBy on May 18, 2017, 05:37:30 PM

Quotefor the record, if you havent watched this video by SimUK, maybe you'll find it interesting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_Vh_vsRYWs

But take a closer look at his brother. He's obviously having problems in the beginning with the default steering... Now I wonder... If DD's bars had some direct drive wheel level FFB and they tried running GPB with DS2... How that would change the outcome? Something tells me he would actually have much less problem getting the thing going right from the start.

ofc he must get used to the controls (or rather to GPB and high speeds in virtual env), i'm sure he would have even more problems with DS. i don't think that direct drive wheel will change much for DS and GPB.

Quote from: passerBy on May 18, 2017, 05:37:30 PM
Autopilots in DCS (excluding the 'hold' ones, like altitude hold, heading hold, etc.) do even less than the GPB's one does. And I already described why.

i don't think so.

Quote from: passerBy on May 18, 2017, 05:37:30 PM

Quote

Quote from: passerBy on May 14, 2017, 06:43:06 PM
What do you want then? Podiums? Prizes? That stuff is only good for boosting one's ego. Having fun is much more important. And challenging fun is the proper kind of fun. It also helps you to become a better person, whereas beating others works the other way around.

there is nothing about ego. even podiums are not important. i love competition for the beauty of the battle of masterhood, for emotions, for personal improvement during the process of learning how to fight, it's some kind of philosophy. you seem to look like a single player mode user, me - not, so i think we should stop the discussion coz now things are clear and there is no reason to continue.

If I was a competitive type, I'd be much more ashamed of using a helper, to be honest, especially calling it a battle of masterhood like that... But if you insist on using it nonetheless, there's nothing I can do about that. But it would be best if you'd abstain from calling DS "unrealistic".  And if it is, how exactly is having an AI layer between you and DS makes it more realistic?

it's okay coz it doesn't steal physics, bike behaviour from me, it helps with bars in wobbles or limits my lean angle but not a big deal for me coz i often stop my leaning even before the limit. DS feels as if i myself should lick my HD drive's disk to make my win7 running. and yes, it's a battle of masterhood even with def steering, if you ever tried to compete hard you'd see that.

Quote from: loinen on May 18, 2017, 09:15:35 PM

Quote from: passerBy on May 18, 2017, 05:37:30 PM
You have missed my point. Castor angle is what makes the front wheels want to go in line with the skidding. Yes, you could just saw at the wheel frantically, but having the steering mostly doing this work for you sounds better, or doesn't it? Especially when you are left with "Degrees Of Rotation" far greater than 900.

i said the wheels are good enough. you probably said they are not good enough because... and then i said that i think they are good enough because of my RL exp. if you cant go in line with the skidding this is almost certainly not a problem of your wheel.

And all you say is "my RL exp this, my RL exp that". You don't even provide any proof you actually have that RL experience (or any proof of your competitive "glory days"), but even if you did, there is always the possibility of you simply being dishonest for the reason of not being able to cope with the fact that simulation is harder than reality. In your perception simulators are "games", and you can't accept being beaten by a game. Therefore, you go into denial, you come up with excuses... But you can't really provide any meaningful explanation to why you consider DS to be "unrealistic". "I feel it this way and I have RL exp", that's not a constructive feedback, nor that is any close to being a proof. I'm not even sure why you decided to post here. You could opt to ignore DS if you dislike it that much.

I can go in line with the skidding. In fact, I have videos regarding that too (unlike you). It's just that in RL the wheel doesn't lag behind. "Direct steering", if you will.

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Quote from: passerBy on May 18, 2017, 05:37:30 PM
My point was that if you are ok with the level of abstraction either your X52 or the G25 forces you to deal with (not to mention an XBox controller), I see no reason why the same G25 would magically throw your suspension of disbelief off when it comes to the controller feel, once applied to GPB with DS.

because DS training is a waste of time at the end.

As I said, you are in denial. Either provide a logical explanation, or simply don't bother making statements. Bare statements don't bear any evidence to them.

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Quote from: passerBy on May 18, 2017, 05:37:30 PM

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Quote from: passerBy on May 14, 2017, 06:43:06 PM
Using a wheel with default steering in GPB makes absolutely no sense to me. The biggest asset of a force feedback wheel controller is, well, the force feedback itself. With the default steering FFB makes no sense whatsoever: you'll be getting something completely unrelated to your input.

at least after getting used to it i easily undestand what happens to my bike, especially to the rear end.

That sounds more in the vein of your own statement about people adopting weird techniques because they refuse to know any better, honestly...

no, it doesn't. you're trying to see what you would like to see here.

Because you said so, apparently? :) Learn to back your statements up with something... Well, with at least something.

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Quote from: passerBy on May 18, 2017, 05:37:30 PM

Quoteseems that we are talking about different things all the time. all my words are coming from the thoughts about learning handling technique

Oh, and mine aren't? Steering is quite a big part of the handling... Some would even argue, the biggest part of it.

seems that you are mostly worrying about steering technique. from a bike's point of view :D

Just a while ago I used to think that the throttle is the most important part of controlling a motorcycle. After starting my DS endeavor, I can't really say I'm giving priority to either of them anymore. But the steering, especially coupled with FFB, is very important.

Quote

Quote from: passerBy on May 18, 2017, 05:37:30 PM

Quotevehicle behavior with control methods which are easy to get accustomed and do not fall in total contradiction with my perception

Why should they follow your perception in particular? Between a perception of someone on the net and the perception that comes as a result of mathematical modelling, I'd rather go with the latter. Especially when it's a facility provided by the sim author himself.

they should not follow my perception. i just said that i'm okay with them due to my RL exp. DS is shit as it is but you can go with whatever you want ofc.

Well, that's your personal opinion that matters only to you. Also, you should refrain from using such words... DS was coded by the very same person who gave you the sim. Be a little more respectful. Nobody forces you to use DS. You came here on your own.

Quote

Quote from: passerBy on May 18, 2017, 05:37:30 PM

Quotefor the record, if you havent watched this video by SimUK, maybe you'll find it interesting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_Vh_vsRYWs

But take a closer look at his brother. He's obviously having problems in the beginning with the default steering... Now I wonder... If DD's bars had some direct drive wheel level FFB and they tried running GPB with DS2... How that would change the outcome? Something tells me he would actually have much less problem getting the thing going right from the start.

ofc he must get used to the controls (or rather to GPB and high speeds in virtual env), i'm sure he would have even more problems with DS. i don't think that direct drive wheel will change much for DS and GPB.

I guess we could do this all day :) "-I think it is! -No, I think it is not!"

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Quote from: passerBy on May 18, 2017, 05:37:30 PM
Autopilots in DCS (excluding the 'hold' ones, like altitude hold, heading hold, etc.) do even less than the GPB's one does. And I already described why.

i don't think so.

Based on what exactly?

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Quote from: passerBy on May 18, 2017, 05:37:30 PM

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Quote from: passerBy on May 14, 2017, 06:43:06 PM
What do you want then? Podiums? Prizes? That stuff is only good for boosting one's ego. Having fun is much more important. And challenging fun is the proper kind of fun. It also helps you to become a better person, whereas beating others works the other way around.

there is nothing about ego. even podiums are not important. i love competition for the beauty of the battle of masterhood, for emotions, for personal improvement during the process of learning how to fight, it's some kind of philosophy. you seem to look like a single player mode user, me - not, so i think we should stop the discussion coz now things are clear and there is no reason to continue.

If I was a competitive type, I'd be much more ashamed of using a helper, to be honest, especially calling it a battle of masterhood like that... But if you insist on using it nonetheless, there's nothing I can do about that. But it would be best if you'd abstain from calling DS "unrealistic".  And if it is, how exactly is having an AI layer between you and DS makes it more realistic?

it's okay coz it doesn't steal physics, bike behaviour from me, it helps with bars in wobbles or limits my lean angle but not a big deal for me coz i often stop my leaning even before the limit.

Or rather doesn't steal the developed comfort zone from you? Direct steering is not just about dropping the bike past the limit. It's about proper application of torque onto the bars and reading the resulting torque back via FFB. You feel the road. You feel what the front (and the rear!) is doing. This all is kinda big deal after all.

QuoteDS feels as if i myself should lick my HD drive's disk to make my win7 running.

Some obscure Russian humor? I don't know what either your HDD or your Win7 have to do with DS.

Quoteand yes, it's a battle of masterhood even with def steering, if you ever tried to compete hard you'd see that.

Well, at the moment your competing hard is just words anyway. I've never heard of you before. Anybody can come up with "I'm a real RL cyclist, DS is crap". Also, on a higher level there's a possibility of different companies hiring actual race drivers/riders to say their particular game is "just like real life". The only thing that matters is some solid proof, not someone's words. Especially, not just words of a random someone on the Internet.

Quote from: passerBy on May 19, 2017, 12:19:37 PM
And all you say is "my RL exp this, my RL exp that".

actually i said a lot of different words about different things. strange to read that for you all comes to this only.

Quote from: passerBy on May 19, 2017, 12:19:37 PM
You don't even provide any proof you actually have that RL experience (or any proof of your competitive "glory days")

glory days? seems that something have gone wrong about me in your head. i said i like competition in sims, i tried bikes irl, i tried car racing irl and so on.. i do compete in sims, not an all time champion but not bad (for my not very reqular training days), won some races against some people (not noobs like you), did some quite fast laps, took some podiums.
here is result table of online fun championship, my name in the table is Br Hr. events took place on rFactor, different class every track - LMP1, LMP2, touring, GT3, classic GT1, i'm not a pro but  4-5 pros participated in every race and other guys were not shit at all as well.
https://pp.userapi.com/c639729/v639729047/a4b8/QhqCBjgJoNA.jpg
short vid done by one of our guys - comparing two best laps in qualify. Alexey Kutsak is kind of a pro, very experienced and very fast.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1wbv1TNhkI

here is the table of fastest laps of Victoria on 990. i'm not the fastest, 14th in the table but moto sims were not my 1st priority in racing, however 4-5 months back i decided to pay constant attention to motos.
http://stats.gp-bikes.com/records.php?trackid=59&bikeid=4

same table for mx bikes
forest track (1st place here, quite surprised)
http://stats.mx-bikes.com/records.php?trackid=4&bikeid=1
winchester track (table of 4 ppl but those two guys are ones of the fastest i've seen on servers in mxb)
http://stats.mx-bikes.com/records.php?trackid=24&bikeid=2

more vids if you need. old short records of me training gpb and mxb
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdTzgF8q55A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCjwi5BOd88

Quote from: passerBy on May 19, 2017, 12:19:37 PM
but even if you did, there is always the possibility of you simply being dishonest for the reason of not being able to cope with the fact that simulation is harder than reality. In your perception simulators are "games", and you can't accept being beaten by a game. Therefore, you go into denial, you come up with excuses...

reminds me of your words about ego and all that stuff you wrote about why people want to compete. i would call this 'wise monkey pshychoanalisys' - sounds smart but stupid in its core and totally wrong.
simulators are not games, i know, but i like to play simulators with people.

Quote from: passerBy on May 19, 2017, 12:19:37 PM
But you can't really provide any meaningful explanation to why you consider DS to be "unrealistic". "I feel it this way and I have RL exp", that's not a constructive feedback, nor that is any close to being a proof. I'm not even sure why you decided to post here. You could opt to ignore DS if you dislike it that much.

representing all my words with such kind of essenses makes me think that you missed everything just because you don't need anything except confirming that DS is the best way to control bike. i said a lot about why i think DS is unrealistic. to speak shortly: i never did such a hard work when ride a bike IRL and bike never tried to fall so hard as it does with DS.

Quote from: passerBy on May 19, 2017, 12:19:37 PM
It's just that in RL the wheel doesn't lag behind. "Direct steering", if you will.

lag? so, for you it lags with def steering. lol.

Quote from: passerBy on May 19, 2017, 12:19:37 PM
As I said, you are in denial. Either provide a logical explanation, or simply don't bother making statements. Bare statements don't bear any evidence to them.

so, at the end of discussion you decided to call for the most true proofs of every word i said. we talked so much, everything was looking logical and all, but now you woke up with the feeling that someone tried to fool you.

Quote from: passerBy on May 19, 2017, 12:19:37 PM
Because you said so, apparently? :) Learn to back your statements up with something... Well, with at least something.

don't learn me, dude. seems that yourself needs learning as you miss so much in what people say.

Quote from: passerBy on May 19, 2017, 12:19:37 PM
Just a while ago I used to think that the throttle is the most important part of controlling a motorcycle. After starting my DS endeavor, I can't really say I'm giving priority to either of them anymore. But the steering, especially coupled with FFB, is very important.

yeah, looks like you are at the very beginning of the path :D

Quote from: passerBy on May 19, 2017, 12:19:37 PM
I guess we could do this all day :) "-I think it is! -No, I think it is not!"

no. using your own words, you are in such a hard denial of default steering that it seems to you that the guy in the vid is struggling with def steering.

Quote from: passerBy on May 19, 2017, 12:19:37 PM
Or rather doesn't steal the developed comfort zone from you?

another piece of dumb psychology?

Quote from: passerBy on May 19, 2017, 12:19:37 PM
Direct steering is not just about dropping the bike past the limit. It's about proper application of torque onto the bars and reading the resulting torque back via FFB. You feel the road. You feel what the front (and the rear!) is doing. This all is kinda big deal after all.

yes, i feel the road and all even with def steering. i also feel that it's more natural than DS. at least with G25 and even gamepad (yes, i tried both devices).

Quote from: passerBy on May 19, 2017, 12:19:37 PM

QuoteDS feels as if i myself should lick my HD drive's disk to make my win7 running.

Some obscure Russian humor? I don't know what either your HDD or your Win7 have to do with DS.

why Russian exactly? i'm IT engineer, that hardware-software figural expression was kind of allusion about DS being like some low level control method, it's like i'm not the user of handlebars, i'm the handlebars.

Quoteand yes, it's a battle of masterhood even with def steering, if you ever tried to compete hard you'd see that.
Well, at the moment your competing hard is just words anyway. I've never heard of you before.

so what now?