hi guys im new at gpbikes but i have a long thought of building a controller for bikes that has actual steer(including ff) all the controls of bike movement and stuff will be fanctionable and chassis able to support motion control(future plan). so here is an idea of how it will look in the end and i will upload pictures as processing. any help or ideas will be very welcome.
http://tseklias.imgur.com/all/
>the controller will be ready aproximatelly the first days of july, videos of it working will be uploaded
*i dont and wont patent or ask for any rights for the following build as long as its only for personal use, the construction manual will be free for the community of gpbikes and any guests that want to use it.
Welcome aboard tseklias. ;D
Can't see you diagram in your post; it's better to use a image hosting site(free) to link your pictures in your posts as the forum attachment facility is as good as useless. :)
I'll be following your progress with your controller build with interest. ;D
Hawk.
here are the external commands of a g25 a ps2 controller and what well need:
moto(as seen on g25 ps2
gpbikes) 3 analog pedals(3 axis) & steer 2 analog(4axis)
lean/steer(g25) 21 buttons 18 buttons
throttle/throttle(g25)
brake(fr)/http://www.totalspanishsimulator.com/wp/en/productos/mod-brake-g25g27/ <-now i want some help on this one, can i use 2 internal commands in one board?(f.e. brake fr&rr)
rear brake/as above-in one board or more
clutch/clutch(g25)
f/b lean/using rope attached to the jaw of the helmet otherwise with a cloth pin to your shirt(measuring the distance between you and the tank)
l/r lean/same bethod as above with the rope hanging from your knee
=6 analog axis needed(not including steering) or 8 analog axis(consuming the f/b&l/r lean cant be used in a single axis :-\)?
#update
yesterday i bought new items (http://i.imgur.com/irPZRDc.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/irPZRDc.jpg)
it also took me a minute to think of a way to measure the distance between the feetbars. i stand the bike in vertical position and dropped a drop of water right under both feetbars then moved the bike back and measured the distance at the ground. i think you can also measure it with 2 bobs hanging from ropes and place them on the inner side of the feetbars. i couldnt think of other way cause chassis and gearbox is between the two feetbars making it impossible to measure straight distance. so my result was 50cm from fbar to fbar from my gsxrbusa(old model). my father(helper in the construction) also stated that the 1000cc bikes will have 45cm and the 600cc 40cm distance between feetbars. im guessing hes partly right cause of the difference in engine case. if anyone can measure his bikes distance and write them down here along with the moto model i will be grateful(i desperately want a 1000cc distance cause i dont own a supersport now)
this is the diagram of how will it look in the end
(http://i.imgur.com/dj54V59.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/dj54V59.jpg)(http://i.imgur.com/aLpIxAk.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/aLpIxAk.jpg)
the diagram is made measuring the distances of an rsv4 as seen in the pictures. the box on the right side of the diagram pic will be the g25 placed right on the middle of the triangle of the basis of the build. you will need to use a logitech g25 controller for the leaning. the steering wheel and the shift paddles of the g25 must be removed and all wires going to the steering wheel also(2 buttons&shift paddles for use in the new controller). you will need to make also a wheel adapter to welcome the 15t(small) sprocket. the e-bay adapter of g25 wont help you so you will need to order it from your local lathe shop. diagram of the adapter needed will be uploaded in the following days.
WOW! This is looking very promising, tseklias.... Can't wait to see a video of the working prototype. ;D
Keep up the good work mate and keep the progress posts coming! ;D 8)
Hawk.
PS: Just got home and saw your message, but I see it looks like you got yourself sorted. ;)
#update
here follows the diagram plan of the steering bar and a pic of mine ready(i dont give you the measures in degrees cause i think it will be more difficult for you)
i also bought a throttle lever(with long route to be less sensitive), handle grips(playlife<3) and a kill switch which i will be using for upshifts(like in motogp)
you need to find yourself an old steering bar(anything can do), cut down the handlebars at the given measures paint the steering bar after you weld it and before you put the parts on(spray color is used)
(http://i.imgur.com/JE9TpPH.png) (http://i.imgur.com/JE9TpPH.png)(http://i.imgur.com/2cKvNc6.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/2cKvNc6.jpg)
ull also need a t-joint out of a steering column of a random car(this is from a seat but any can do, we want only the link)
(http://i.imgur.com/RvB8I10.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/RvB8I10.jpg)
*if your not planing on adding motion simulation later on you wont need this last part
This looks cool!
#update
as you may figure out from the diagram you must remove some parts from the wheel that we will need to put in different position for another use.
(http://i.imgur.com/lsHJF2o.jpg]) (http://i.imgur.com/lsHJF2o.jpg)(http://i.imgur.com/qokycdO.jpg]) (http://i.imgur.com/qokycdO.jpg)
so i took off the steering wheel from the g25, the shift paddles and the "chipset" as seen in the pictures.
(http://i.imgur.com/ucCDfsy.jpg]) (http://i.imgur.com/ucCDfsy.jpg)put the parts along with the screws in a plastic bag or box and put them somewhere safe so you wont lose them if you may need in the future.
*it is pretty easy to take off, if any of you find it difficulty search on utube for disassemply videos and if no luck pm me.
*a video on how to mount the fan on top of the g25 can be found here:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW_thHzE50k <-the mod is really handy and had been tested by me(with accurate thermometer) and its worth applying since the motors inside g25 is used for the force feedback function which on our build must move you whole.
this is the adaptor u need to order from the lathe shop. i had an old adapter so he only open up a hole in the center and put a spacer in both the sprocket and the adaptor(same diameter as the hole of the sprocket).
(http://i.imgur.com/JcS9bvK.jpg]) (http://i.imgur.com/JcS9bvK.jpg)(http://i.imgur.com/Tubx7aR.jpg]) (http://i.imgur.com/Tubx7aR.jpg)
*the sprocket actually should be able to spin.
wraios,keep it up this is very interesting :)
Quote from: valentinik46 on July 03, 2014, 06:39:37 PM
wraios,keep it up this is very interesting :)
Your making progress.... I'm keeping my eye on this thread. ;) ;D 8)
Hawk
thanks for the kind comments. these are the steel tubes we will need. part of them actually cause we'll need a couple more.
(http://i.imgur.com/bLTl4OQ.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/bLTl4OQ.jpg)4x1.20m 33mm(Φ33)
(http://i.imgur.com/GyI6iom.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/GyI6iom.jpg)1x1.80m 48mm(Φ48)
;D ;D
i went out of my timetable and my apologies for that but my father is on vacation as i am on weekends and we find no time together to finish this. i need him cause im not a talented welder and i want it to look as good as possible. but the project will be continued with smaller steps until we meet. i drawed some pictures in colors for you to get a better idea of the design and how it will function.
(http://i.imgur.com/qt3QVI3.png) (http://i.imgur.com/qt3QVI3.png)(http://i.imgur.com/AfJbjye.png) (http://i.imgur.com/AfJbjye.png)
light grey=thinner tubes
dark grey=central/basic tube
*think of it similar to a small swing and the force moving it, will be the g25/27(logitech has very powerful ff motors they will do just fine)
Wow! Impressive! ;D 8)
I'll be very interested to see this in action once it is complete... Will you make a video and upload it to YouTube for us all to see when completed? ;D
Hawk.
Quote from: tseklias on July 06, 2014, 09:11:46 PM
think of it similar to a small swing and the force moving it, will be the g25/27(logitech has very powerful ff motors they will do just fine)
Hi tseklias, looking like a nice project already, keep up the good work.
Questions/remarks:
- I really doubt the g25/g27 will have enough force to work on this rig. Yes for a steering wheel it might seem strong, but basically you will be hanging will all your weight on the wheel and I reaaaally doubt whether it has enough strength to make some noticable feedback or might even burn the internal force feedback motors.
- I am missing some fairing or parts where you are able to put your knees on. If you are hanging on the side of the bike, i think you will be mostly using the pressure with your knees to get upright again. If you do not have anything to put your legs/knees against, all that force has to come from your inner thighs which might not be the most comfortable experience in the long run.
Quote from: iVolution on July 07, 2014, 11:11:44 AM
Questions/remarks:
- I really doubt the g25/g27 will have enough force to work on this rig. Yes for a steering wheel it might seem strong, but basically you will be hanging will all your weight on the wheel and I reaaaally doubt whether it has enough strength to make some noticable feedback or might even burn the internal force feedback motors.
- I am missing some fairing or parts where you are able to put your knees on. If you are hanging on the side of the bike, i think you will be mostly using the pressure with your knees to get upright again. If you do not have anything to put your legs/knees against, all that force has to come from your inner thighs which might not be the most comfortable experience in the long run.
1.i maxxed out all the power the ff of g25 has and played a few rounds with rfactor. after a couple of laps(not riding to the limits) i was sweating and the g25 didnt apply even 60-70% of its power cause i was driving carefully and avoiding to crash or stepping on curb. now if you see my build i have a gearing of 2/1 this means the force g25 puts to the bike is doubled.
*im more afraid on breaking any plastic parts inside the g25 rather than blowing the motors. i read somewhere that g25 houses brushless motors, this means actually that theyre bulletproof and has no life limit.
2.i think gpbikes use a centering spring(in-game) with help of the throttle at least thats the impression it gave me when i first tried it.
very interesting points that may be actual problems later, but well see, for now im more concerned of how to geometry right the whole build. i think thats the most difficult part here along with repositioning the potensiometers and measure right the new routes.
Ouch, the way it pivots around its longitudinal axis is gonna feel strange in my opinion.
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on July 07, 2014, 12:34:53 PM
Ouch, the way it pivots around its longitudinal axis is gonna feel strange in my opinion.
Yes thats a good point, i think there will always be something that will feel strange if you make "motorcycle controller" but not use the whole bike rig thing as what you usually see (Shark). I really try to visualize how I would sit ride on the model that is proposed and to overcome this problem I would try to lower that main tube a bit to be able to apply some force on the rig above that longitudinal axis. In the current situation i can imagine that leaning the bike is mostly done by pushing on the handle bar and footstep which might get a bit hard when straightening the bike out.
Quote from: tseklias on July 07, 2014, 12:12:54 PM
i have a gearing of 2/1 this means the force g25 puts to the bike is doubled.
I am not an expert on physics, but doesn't that also mean that the G25 has to work twice as hard since every movement from the wheel has to be transformed in 2x that movement on the bike?
Quote from: tseklias on July 07, 2014, 12:12:54 PM
i have a gearing of 2/1 this means the force g25 puts to the bike is doubled.
Not sure I get the whole setup right ... will you use the frame lean (connected to the modded g25/27) to feed the GPB "steering" input ?
So the handlebars are actually locked, right ?
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on July 07, 2014, 12:34:53 PM
Ouch, the way it pivots around its longitudinal axis is gonna feel strange in my opinion.
yeah it will feel strange but surely not more than all other car racing setups. i was always strangling to find a way to know when the car actually started to go sideways on all car simulators. short answer=i believe if you dont install a motion simulator youll never know for sure, i hope you got the point, all the information a sim can give you through the controller,vibrations,ff,displays are not enough. you got to feel it at your butt to know that your sliding! either way none ever give it a shot, yeah i agree you can find many controllers working on utube but thats a whole different level of feedback well get from this. PLUS i havent spend more than 40euros till now and believe it will cost a 40-50 more. well this is ridiculous i think even for a fail attempt!
Quote from: iVolution on July 07, 2014, 01:34:09 PM
I am not an expert on physics, but doesn't that also mean that the G25 has to work twice as hard since every movement from the wheel has to be transformed in 2x that movement on the bike?
the g25 will have to run the double distance but with half the power. we will need to run the logitech profiler just like you did if you ever played rfactor, lfs or any other sim that you needed to configure it.to find out the maximum lean in degrees you do the following:
lean angle of bike=
64(
max seen on motogp)x
2(
cause you can turn both left and right)=
128. now you multiply 128 by 2 since the g25 must run double the distance. so the logitech profiler must be set at 256degrees. be patience and i will provide you with all the information you will need to make it run from start to finish.
Quote from: HornetMaX on July 07, 2014, 02:37:31 PM
Not sure I get the whole setup right ... will you use the frame lean (connected to the modded g25/27) to feed the GPB "steering" input ?
So the handlebars are actually locked, right ?
yes max. at least for now! gpbikes doesnt have the option to steer the handlebars. i thought of it earlier when i was designing the controller. a second bad thing also is that were restricted(since no steer exists) not to use ff motor for the handlebars. we can only imagine it for now how would it feel getting out of a corner wobbling and feeling it to your hands. it would have been also great so to know when you slide(since handlebars always face the direction axis) and under hard braking when the front wheel locks and you have to let brake and push it again not to fall. AHHHHhh :'(
Quote from: tseklias on July 07, 2014, 03:01:58 PM
Quote from: HornetMaX on July 07, 2014, 02:37:31 PM
Not sure I get the whole setup right ... will you use the frame lean (connected to the modded g25/27) to feed the GPB "steering" input ?
So the handlebars are actually locked, right ?
yes max. at least for now! gpbikes doesnt have the option to steer the handlebars. i thought of it earlier when i was designing the controller. a second bad thing also is that were restricted(since no steer exists) not to use ff motor for the handlebars. we can only imagine for now getting out of a corner wobbling and feeling it to your hands.
That's not entirely true: with "direct steer torque" the input controls the torque applied to the handlebars by the rider (and the FFB returns the torque applied on the handlebars by the environment). This is for sure the "purest" controller configuration. As an alternative, the input could control the "target handlebar angle" (using "direct steer angle" instead of "direct steer torque"). If you have a controller on which the steering axis can act as input and has FFB (e.g. if you connect your steering axis to a G25/27) then you could test these two input methods and see which one works better.
But then you would need to do something for the lean (assuming you want your frame to rotate when the bike leans): as GPB does not have separate inputs for steering and bike lean (and there are good reasons for that), the lean could only be "passive". You could have an output plugin reading the bike's lean angle and feeding this into the motor that controls the frame lean angle. Not very straightforward (at least for me) but surely doable (assuming you have a powerful enough motor, you can deal with the safety issues, etc).
Personally, before going for the full setup (with leaning frame), I would explore the simpler setup: G25/27 with wheel replaced by handlebars (throttle + front brake + clutch) and eventually some sort of pedals (for gears and rear brake). Using that with the standard input configuration (handlebars dictating the target lean angle) or the two "direct steering" configurations (DS torque and DS angle) should already provide a lot of information.
MaX.
Seems like your trying to make this.
(http://www.arcade-museum.com/images/111/1110663929.jpg)
(http://api.ning.com/files/dYpGAelklAEDBVbTTYJ2esV6NHWICvQgf1B3X0uu9F-7CtHTHgqW8eYosB9SxvRTCUSeOlDH7jwWnJCptjabTw7Eqgxg2qCb/hangon_b.jpg)
Sega's Super Hang One
http://www.youtube.com/v/_pKZaCdRIhw
Quote from: HornetMaX on July 07, 2014, 03:32:26 PM
That's not entirely true: with "direct steer..... ...should already provide a lot of information.
basically cause i dont know english well its hard to understand the function by only a name(direct steer, steer with torque etc). i have to give it a try to understand how it works. direct steer with torque is something that does the opposite job(with ff) from what we want by what i understood from the ds /w torque forum.
you should definitely give it a try with the g25, piboso couldnt have done a more wonderful work on the ff effects. ;)
earlier i disassembled the pedals to take apart the potensiometers. not to say i wouldnt expecting it, so the wires of the potensiometers are too thin and may also be damaged if stretched and you will never find out the problem. so i assembled again the pedals and ordered a new from e-bay for 20$=25euro(including transfer). the reason i didnt use mine are that ive already modded mine(seperate upside-down brake&clutch for car sims) and it would have been double the work to do.
so continuing with the build heres the logitech profiler numbers you must need to use(http://i.imgur.com/nIBxYHm.png) (http://i.imgur.com/nIBxYHm.png)
Quote from: Klax75 on July 07, 2014, 03:41:33 PM
Seems like your trying to make this.
no they were trying to copy mine! ;D
Those came out in 1987.....
Quote from: Klax75 on July 07, 2014, 03:59:24 PM
Those came out in 1987.....
ups i thought you were kidding. those things actually cost an arm and a leg to buy they dont function right(no ff,no actual steer...) and the size of those is pathetic(they havent became more compact till nowadays). plus im a fan of diy projects, its the only way to guarantee the pleasure of my needs.
I can't use any of these in real life so. Doesn't matter to me. lol If I could use these, it would me I had the body to rider a real bike. Woo hoo! ;D
Quote from: Klax75 on July 07, 2014, 04:10:10 PM
I can't use any of these in real life so. Doesn't matter to me. lol If I could use these, it would me I had the body to rider a real bike. Woo hoo! ;D
oh i think i understood. im sorry i didnt know about it. either way on our subject i think the closest thing you can buy and not diy, is the IASystems controller, which imo i dont like. in the end riding a bike feels like a fight/cooperation of balance between rider and the machine i think this is the feel a controller must give you, not being able to drink a coffee while riding.
Quote from: Hawk_UK on July 06, 2014, 10:57:50 PM
Wow! Impressive! ;D 8)
I'll be very interested to see this in action once it is complete... Will you make a video and upload it to YouTube for us all to see when completed? ;D
excuse me hawk i skipped your question, lol i disappointed my 1st fan! ;D
yes many videos of it working and constructing the hard parts will be uploaded. ask anything you want.
Quote from: tseklias on July 07, 2014, 05:18:26 PM
Quote from: Hawk_UK on July 06, 2014, 10:57:50 PM
Wow! Impressive! ;D 8)
I'll be very interested to see this in action once it is complete... Will you make a video and upload it to YouTube for us all to see when completed? ;D
excuse me hawk i skipped your question, lol i disappointed my 1st fan! ;D
yes many videos of it working and constructing the hard parts will be uploaded. ask anything you want.
Lol... No problem mate. I'll be looking forward to seeing the vids. ;)
If I have the time, I'd like to make something similar myself. Always wanted to try GPBikes with realistic controls, especially the handlebars, throttle, clutch, frnt brake and foot levers for rear brake and gear changes; would be great! ;D
Hawk.
Quote from: Hawk_UK on July 07, 2014, 05:56:23 PM
Lol... No problem mate. I'll be looking forward to seeing the vids. ;)
If I have the time, I'd like to make something similar myself. Always wanted to try GPBikes with realistic controls, especially the handlebars, throttle, clutch, frnt brake and foot levers for rear brake and gear changes; would be great! ;D
ok then be patience and ill do the whole job easy for you. in the end ill make a pdf file with a step-by-step build of it and a couple of vids(working&building manual).
ok guys here's the next part you need to order from the lathe shop.
(http://i.imgur.com/Nqx31mQ.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/Nqx31mQ.jpg)(http://i.imgur.com/GhgP7LC.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/GhgP7LC.jpg)
this part needs to be welded on the main-spinning tube and will hold the big sprocket(30t). the inner hole must be slightly bigger than the tube(0.5-1mm) in order to just slide it in(if you want to make it easier for you just cut a piece from your tube and give it to lathe machinist to use it as sample). the outer diameter doesnt matter at all. as you can see in the right image i also made a helping "guide-scratch" right where i need to make the bolts to hold the sprocket.
the dimensions of my washer are: inner hole=4.9cm, outer diameter=8.5cm and the guide=7cm(3.5 from center)
*keep in mind that this part must be a metal that can be welded(dont order aluminium, teflon etc)
*also about the guide-scratch i used a 30t sprocket from a mini bike(honda pre '90) if you use another one you must measure the distance between two opposite holes
fellas i feel i should apologise for going out of time schedule but i work on 2 jobs now and im away from home from 6 oclock till 12 at night and i dont have time to take and upload pictures of the project. but i continue it with small steps everyday, i mostly order stuff i need from here and there. i think and want to show you the project step by step and not straight the finished controller as i want to help everyone to be able to build one replica having the knowledge or not.
right now im working on a set of corrected lean angles for all mod bikes as i believe it is crucial for the right function of the wheel. im at 90% and will upload the files this week if a friend of mine(or whoever with experience and free time) finish the testing. stay tuned i believe youll love this as much as i do.
heres the next add-on i told you ill upload it is a secondary update but my opinion is that it is very important to see the controller work correctly. you can give it a try with your current controllers also. if you have the maxhud installed and enable the lean degrees display youll witness straight on the difference.
link to topic: http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=1326.0
long time has passed and ive not posted any news of the project. sorry about that but i have migrated and im still in the "fight" for the basics(job,home...).
i have updated my project with many new ideas and a prototype idea with motion movement! i will upload the new pictures of it asap and just wanted to say that i wont let this project die for no reason, i will take it to the end.
Quote from: tseklias on July 07, 2014, 04:19:00 PM
Quote from: Klax75 on July 07, 2014, 04:10:10 PM
I can't use any of these in real life so. Doesn't matter to me. lol If I could use these, it would me I had the body to rider a real bike. Woo hoo! ;D
oh i think i understood. im sorry i didnt know about it. either way on our subject i think the closest thing you can buy and not diy, is the IASystems controller, which imo i dont like. in the end riding a bike feels like a fight/cooperation of balance between rider and the machine i think this is the feel a controller must give you, not being able to drink a coffee while riding.
Hi tseklias,
you should read the posts where people are using my SPSS steering without FFB and love it and one I know sure as hell knows how to ride in real life. Before you make sarcastic comments about my system show us yours working in a video! I will help anyone here with a project as they show respect and just need help. I could say a lot about your concept that will help but it seems you think that only your way is the right way. Show us a video please. And for the books, I used to be a long distance medical motorcycle courier and quite often drank a cuppa coffee while riding when I didnt have to risk my life saving someone. It was said to explain that the steering is neutral and precise, you can ride hard or ride slow but have total control of the bike just with the throtle hand on the bars.
Hope you understand I wish you all the best in your project, just dont take the piss out of mine okay!!!
DD
Quote from: doubledragoncc on December 05, 2014, 01:46:18 PM
either way on our subject i think the closest thing you can buy and not diy, is the IASystems controller, which imo i dont like
in the end riding a bike feels like a fight/cooperation of balance between rider and the machine i think this is the feel a controller must give you, not being able to drink a coffee while riding.
Hi tseklias,
you should read the posts where people are using my SPSS steering without FFB and love it and one I know sure as hell knows how to ride in real life. Before you make sarcastic comments about my system show us yours working in a video! I will help anyone here with a project as they show respect and just need help. I could say a lot about your concept that will help but it seems you think that only your way is the right way. Show us a video please. And for the books, I used to be a long distance medical motorcycle courier and quite often drank a cuppa coffee while riding when I didnt have to risk my life saving someone. It was said to explain that the steering is neutral and precise, you can ride hard or ride slow but have total control of the bike just with the throtle hand on the bars.
Hope you understand I wish you all the best in your project, just dont take the piss out of mine okay!!!
DD
as i said my controller is not yet ready. but what did i say about the iasystem is that i dont like it, that i want something more hard to control. why did you take what im after from a controller and put it down on your example? i wasnt talking about your system i was talking about what i am after.
read again please carefully. i'm on this forum around 1 year now and even i disagreed with many people in many different things i was never rude or offended them. i think that you simply misunderstood.
Thats fine mate. Hope your system works out for you. I have been building controls since 1983 so got some miles under my feet on it.
That aside I think you will find that as someone said before the pivot point on you system is very high and bikes dont pivot at the headstem, its from the contact point of the tire to the ground. I am just wondering how it will feel on your system?
Well best of luck and have fun with it.
DD
Quote from: doubledragoncc on December 05, 2014, 04:24:46 PM
Thats fine mate. Hope your system works out for you. I have been building controls since 1983 so got some miles under my feet on it.
That aside I think you will find that as someone said before the pivot point on you system is very high and bikes dont pivot at the headstem, its from the contact point of the tire to the ground. I am just wondering how it will feel on your system?
Well best of luck and have fun with it.
DD
im glad you havent misundertood me. hmm i think thats a very long discussion. apparently i agree applying these physics on the road not on a controller. but thats any easy problem to solve later on.
my problem now is finding the cog and log to complete the geometry and an electrician to wire everything up cause im too dumb with electronics.
finally i just finished the geometry schematics of my controller and here follows the pictures. as i previously said i was long trying to develop a chassis ready to house motion simulator. please excuse me for low quality pictures and not detailed as the previous ones but i switched from corel to inkscape and that's my really first try with this program. so here we go:
(http://i.imgur.com/t3aZy8J.png) (http://i.imgur.com/t3aZy8J.png)(http://i.imgur.com/zw7zbsk.png) (http://i.imgur.com/zw7zbsk.png)
with and without rider
(http://i.imgur.com/yIV6IJA.png) (http://i.imgur.com/yIV6IJA.png)(http://i.imgur.com/XvHpylF.png) (http://i.imgur.com/XvHpylF.png)
under braking and accelerate
(http://i.imgur.com/MXycArV.png) (http://i.imgur.com/MXycArV.png)(http://i.imgur.com/ohBHUqN.png) (http://i.imgur.com/ohBHUqN.png)
the rear view of the controller and where the monitor will be positioned while cornering ::)
(http://i.imgur.com/5UFVbsF.png) (http://i.imgur.com/5UFVbsF.png)
and finally an upper view of the controller showing the side movement simulating side tire spin.
please keep in mind that these are pictures that wil help me later to build the controller as a guide to not forget anything. i'm just releasing the plans earlier so please don't grab a ferule and start complaining, their just my personal help.
I think the high CofG (rider body) relative to the spindle axis will cause problems for the G25, been looking around for other reasons and G25 is only 3 or 4 Nm at the spindle.
Quote from: h106frp on December 15, 2014, 09:34:45 PM
I think the high CofG (rider body) relative to the spindle axis will cause problems for the G25, been looking around for other reasons and G25 is only 3 or 4 Nm at the spindle.
i may not use the g25 motors, maybe not either a g25. things will change in the construction cause i want to add also force feedback for the handlebars to simulate wobble and front traction loss.
ps yes please keep looking for other reasons it may not function right, mostly geometrically. all the suggestions and questions also may lead to a disfunctionality i can't see alone and will be much appreciated
Its in another thread discussion but have a read of this its quite interesting;
http://www.superbikeschool.com/machinery/no-bs-machine.php (http://www.superbikeschool.com/machinery/no-bs-machine.php)
I think you need to split the steering from the bike chassis movements, the inputs are from the steering input (with FF) and the bike rotations are the result computed by the simulator. The clever bit would be where (if) you could split the riders CofG adjustment inputs to the system (body position moves) from the chassis movement changes generated by the simulator. It would be something along the lines of the difference in torque needed by the motor to hold position with the rider inputs over that it expects to generate just to achieve the correct bike attitudes.
Quite a project 8)
WOW! That's a really cool project. Who hasn't dreamed of this kind of controllers! AND IT'S STILL ON! Keep up the good work mate. ;D
I don't want to sound destructive, but... can you imagine how much torque you need to twist a rider and hold in that position? Maybe you don't know but that's over 50 Nm. NONE of the steering wheels on the market ( except bodnar's that is just a industry servo) is capable of something like that.
But any way. I wish you good luck :)
Quote from: Furious on December 16, 2014, 12:24:11 AM
I don't want to sound destructive, but... can you imagine how much torque you need to twist a rider and hold in that position? Maybe you don't know but that's over 50 Nm. NONE of the steering wheels on the market ( except bodnar's that is just a industry servo) is capable of something like that.
But any way. I wish you good luck :)
this fact is being discussed take some time to read the topic please... it took me all day today to finish my drawings (and if you ever worked on a vector editor you know how much of a headache is to use) wouldn't it be equal from your side to take some time to read?
anyway you'll actually should be able to swing on it even if no force is applied on it(so the wheel will actually just have to move a ''swinging chair''). there are many very easy ways to manage that to the rider using the controller at the exact time.
ok here's a better calibrated centerline of balance of the whole controller according to the cog of the rider, for the ones asking for it.
(http://i.imgur.com/TqS26HZ.png) (http://i.imgur.com/TqS26HZ.png)(http://i.imgur.com/qZlnJPW.png) (http://i.imgur.com/qZlnJPW.png)
the line on one of the pictures is the centerline of ''twist''.
Hi tseklias,
to be honest, just like Furious, I'm very skeptical about the whole thing working.
Do you realize you'll need to code some not-so-trivial software to drive the g25 (from the GPB lean output) ?
MaX.
It will be easier in the long run to avoid the commercial unit software interface, you could just talk to the G25 motor controller directly but then you are better of using a more powerful driver anyway, the G25 and G27 seem prone to overheating under normal loads from what i have read. Lots of documented mods with circuit schematics on the web for improving cooling and power outputs of these units.
The windows FF USB interface is poorly documented and not really what we require for a full bike simulator anyway, it would just mean your device would be specific to GPB but more capable and expandable than generic FF devices.
Using a microcontroller you can output PWM signals representing the values from the GPB telemetry, these are then used to drive your positional servos. Be prepared for a bit of a shock at the cost of industrial servo units, the cheaper option is to see what the hobby robot builders offer in kit form.
i don't know what to use later nor motors neither the software. what i'm after at this point is to make it geometrically functionable.
this is an open project for everyone to evolve and not a professional try to make money. so as far as i'm complete with the build/construction i may ask for help here or elsewhere, but as for now i can't request anything cause i'm not ready.
i have many things in mind that must be also somehow be changed in gpb also to function right eg i want to put two buttons on each feetbar and in game the exact leg will be detached like you do. but all these are long term plans and without help it will only lead to a dead-end, that's why this project is free and pdfs and videos will come later to help eveyone build their own. what i'm after is to try and gather some views together with a first successful try from the build either mine or someone elses, so a large number of people will demand or being after the same things from all sources(software, gpb support, motors, actuators....)
anyone that understands or can imagine how this will function, must admit that it will be easier in the end to make it work if it is right geometrically than it being wrong(misplaced weight).
Hi T,
What are you using or going to use for communicating your controllers output to the PC? I know Leo Bodnar's boards and they are the best. I am going to go see him in the New Year as I am too busy setting up the new company at the mo. I will be talking about bike specific control boards so any questions or queries you have send them my way.
If I can help with the electronic side let me know.
DD
Quote from: doubledragoncc on December 16, 2014, 02:37:47 PM
Hi T,
What are you using or going to use for communicating your controllers output to the PC? I know Leo Bodnar's boards and they are the best. I am going to go see him in the New Year as I am too busy setting up the new company at the mo. I will be talking about bike specific control boards so any questions or queries you have send them my way.
If I can help with the electronic side let me know.
DD
yes i have seen the bodnar boards/wires and i'm thinking that i'll might be need some of those. till now all i know is what i want to do and i know that it can be done, but i don't know the way cause i never understood how electrics function so for now i have no questions. my father has knowledge on electronics and he will help me later on so when questions will come up i will inform you, so you help me if you know.
anyway for now i wanna say thank you to all the people trying to help me or just commenting their own thoughts here.
I highly recommend the BU0836X from Leo. I left one with Grimm, ask him how it is, he hates electrics but found it real easy.
The BU0836X is pure plug n play USB. No soldering needed, all connections are spring clamp type. It has 8 analog channels for 8 axis with full 4096 bit resolution. It has one 8 way POV Hat switch input and 32 digital inputs!!!. It can receive analog input from potentiometers 5K to 100K, Load cells, Hal censors etc. etc. £49.00 its a steal bro. There is a solder version for less too.
If you need any help just let me know.
DD
Quote from: doubledragoncc on December 18, 2014, 01:35:45 AM
It has 8 analog channels for 8 axis with full 4096 bit resolution.
12 bits, 4096 steps :)
Still, it's more than enough.
MaX.
Just to throw it into the mix, for 25 notes you can get a very similar board that's well worth considering, the BU0836A 12-Bit Joystick Controller. If you need more than 12 switches you'll need to use a matrix but it's not so hard to do and 12 was plenty for my controller.
lol teeds thats what I wrote at the end but did not put the Board number in so thanks.
DD
Found this site http://www.xsimulator.net/community/ (http://www.xsimulator.net/community/)
Builder forum with links to some standard designs and parts for motion simulation, software and controllers for home building. Simplest motor option seems to be car wiper motor and gearbox. Might ease the pain of moving from the G25 as axis controller. Some good ideas on using 2 motors and a pivot to give pitch and yaw axis control.
Great link h106, very interesting and full of links. Just dont everyone rush out and borrow your mums/dads, sister/brother or wives car wiper motors. If there is an increase in wiper motors in your town its due to h106 lol
Thanks buddy. A very merry christmas and happy new year to you all
DD
Quote from: doubledragoncc on December 25, 2014, 02:44:44 AM
If there is an increase in wiper motors in your town its due to h106 lol
that comment made my day XD. if anyones interested in car simulations also check my topic on the site h106 mentioned http://www.xsimulator.net/community/threads/shiftknob-brake-shock.5669/
Techie note for driving home made servos... :)
Just one thing i have found from my own servo trials, if you want to use switchmode power supplies to drive your servos (i.e. PC power supply) you will need something like this;
http://www.protoplant.com/power (http://www.protoplant.com/power)
Power Supply Multiplier with Back EMF Clamp - without it, every time you reverse direction on the servo the supply will trip on over voltage due to back emf from the motor and cause either the drive circuit or supply to drop out or become unresponsive while it resets from over voltage protection mode.
The electronic regenerative brake side (big resistor/mosfet/comparator) of the circuit will make the servo motor much more responsive during direction change as this sheds the kinetic energy stored in the rotor as heat.
Seems a poorly documented issue and took a while to track down, i have built my own inspired by this design and another to try out using mainly bits harvested in the past from old PC power supplies so it cost next to nothing and is quite simple construction, it works great and allows the use of cheap switch mode supplies rather than massive linear supplies or batteries.
Hopefully one more learning step to high power/relatively low cost servo system :)