Hey guys , after many many many hours, I finished my first work !! :)
KTM RC8R
(http://s26.postimg.org/r8ya8qbl5/ktm_black.jpg)
(http://s26.postimg.org/vkrhbh7vt/ktm_orange.jpg)
(http://s26.postimg.org/so4gb7221/ktm_cockpit.jpg)
Livery Mechanics Cockpit
(http://s26.postimg.org/qq2dqxyy1/liverytemplate.jpg) (http://s26.postimg.org/9qtfbonqh/mechanicstemplate.jpg) (http://s26.postimg.org/c9f4cd9gp/cockpittemplate.jpg)
The bike has own physics !
- Adjusted weight
- 180 HP
- Improved handling
- New sound
- Quickshifter (faster upshift)
big thanks to : RiccoChicco for helping me with 3D stuff :)
and rodney007 for helping me to import the bike and helping me with the physics which are very unique :D
I hope you like it and have alot of fun powersliding that machine 8)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
KTM RC8 Physics update v1.3
Update 1.3:
Overall grip (front and rear)
-Rolled back rear tire grip
Tire wear
-Corrected grip of the front tire and wear factors, harder braking into corners will cause heat and excessive wear
of the front tire. Balance this to save grip for the last laps of a race.
Braking
-Braking more than 20% in lean will cause the front wheel to lock (lowside), this requires strong initial braking
and then a smooth ease off the brake into the corner.
Weight
-Bike weight has been reconfigured which implicates the suspension and how the bike wheelies
Front end
-Further reduced wobble (95% gone) and a more stable front end overall.
Wheelie
-Bike is significantly easier to wheelie and allows for some nice ones coming out of corners
Engine
-Rolled back engine power (less top speed)
DOWNLOADS:
BIKE : https://mega.co.nz/#!uZ4ByZoY!ctARJqYsyYWlr0ECgxvDKYNBoXtQu9LIaN74gu8IBCE
TEMPLATES : https://mega.co.nz/#!bdAkyTQA!-ws9_DPUtsAsqkeGdiS2uSWqH5fXhTbfGy4uLDy5Plw
*NEW*KTM RC8 Physics update 1.3 : https://www.dropbox.com/s/5fqdmbk674iv1nq/Physics3.rar
ty very much, very good work too all involved.
What the f...!!?? :o No WIP .... Just a wonderfull bike!!! :P Amazing work !!! Thank you ... Thank you...Thank you...
Thanks guys
Yes great bike......easy to power slide.......great work man
Awesome! impatient to test it.
@Abigor explain me how u can powerslide in gpb ^^ rofl
Quote from: capeta on July 25, 2014, 04:41:33 PM
Awesome! impatient to test it.
@Abigor explain me how u can powerslide in gpb ^^ rofl
you will find out yourself ;)
great work, thanks a lot! very nice to ride!!
rly good job on physics great bike GOOD JOB
Quote from: capeta on July 25, 2014, 04:41:33 PM
Awesome! impatient to test it.
@Abigor explain me how u can powerslide in gpb ^^ rofl
its like in real live capeta......little bit of finesse and skills.
Looks like a superb job by all involved... Thanks guys!! ;D 8)
Hawk.
Thank you I love this bike :D
Great work
;D ;D ;D ;D
thank you all guys :) ! i am glad you like it :D
Great work eally like the bike. Two Questions.
The fairing and the wind screen is very reflective. I only use Helmet view and the glare makes it so I can't see the track very well. :( Maybe rider view, turn down the reflections to like 5% or so.
Also is there a texture for the tire rims?
Can I put this in the next Bike MOD release?
Quote from: Klax75 on July 25, 2014, 10:05:47 PM
Great work eally like the bike. Two Questions.
The fairing and the wind screen is very reflective. I only use Helmet view and the glare makes it so I can't see the track very well. :( Maybe rider view, turn down the reflections to like 5% or so.
Also is there a texture for the tire rims?
Can I put this in the next Bike MOD release?
thank you very much :)
about the windscreen , i also only ride in helmet view , i thought it lookd good , but thats no problem i can turn down the reflections !
and for the rims ! they are from the aprilia rsv4 but i will add a texture to the templates !
bike mod yes , but let me update it , don't worry...that will happen before the 1st of the month :)
Thanks dude! :D
thank you very much guys, bike looks awesome. :)
Looks great! Thank you.
Quote from: Abigor on July 25, 2014, 05:48:13 PM
Quote from: capeta on July 25, 2014, 04:41:33 PM
Awesome! impatient to test it.
@Abigor explain me how u can powerslide in gpb ^^ rofl
its like in real live capeta......little bit of finesse and skills.
That's all i don't have ^^
@klax you can go to graphics settings and drop the reflextions.
I've tried that, you still I still get a spot of the sun on the wind screen obscuring the view. Even with reflections off, tried it last night.
Wow ..very very nice.,..
Thanks very very thanks
22
Really enjoying the bike. :D Some other suggestions. One about the windscreen I noticed it also has a white tin to it, so it's kind of a smoked glass look. Maybe make it more like RiccoChicco's M1 has a nice wind screen. Maybe it more transparent with maybe a dark'ish blue / black color instead of white. :)
The RPM gauge it kind of feels like it needs a poly over that reflects. Like a glass cover protecting the needle of the gauge.
Last thing I was wondering about under the speed gauge there is another thing. Could it be used for Lap times? :)
Great work!
Great bike! looks awesome and i really like the physics! nice progressive handling and suits the catagory very well!
all round great mod thanks man!! 8)
Quote from: Klax75 on July 26, 2014, 11:14:31 PM
Really enjoying the bike. :D Some other suggestions. One about the windscreen I noticed it also has a white tin to it, so it's kind of a smoked glass look. Maybe make it more like RiccoChicco's M1 has a nice wind screen. Maybe it more transparent with maybe a dark'ish blue / black color instead of white. :)
The RPM gauge it kind of feels like it needs a poly over that reflects. Like a glass cover protecting the needle of the gauge.
Last thing I was wondering about under the speed gauge there is another thing. Could it be used for Lap times? :)
Great work!
i am glad you all like it :) ! thank you very much guys
@Klax75 , windscreen and rpm gauge glass....im on my work :) !! and the second dash thing for the lap times is a very tricky job ! i tried it many hours but didn't get it to work , the main problem is that its not on one screen i think ! but i will try it to get it working....if not i am sorry for that , but maybe there is just a little trick which i don't know ^^ !!
and should i change the category to something like SST1000 ? or let it in the gp1000....
its deffinately a stocker.. ;)
would/will be great to have a superstock 1000 catagory!
will be intresting to compare it to the stk1000 mod bikes from _oDi_ and co...
Maybe leave yours a GP1000.
I think the Italian guys are making a bike set with a RC8 in it also. So not sure what there category will be called.
Sometimes I noticed on the very front of the fairing there is like a darker shadow at some angles. But maybe just the lighting. :)
Maybe make the needle gauge illuminated white background so you can still see it in shadow. Like the speed gauge is Orange. Just a idea.
Again keep up the great work!
This bike achieves a level of perfection for me as a sim rider, it is forgiving in ways the GP1000 class just isn't, but, it's still blazing fast with the right approach. Love the feel of the huge mid range torque and the fact I can actually power slide the bike on a Soft/Soft tire setup with very little suspension adjustment. The rear end steps out a bit and it can be controlled rather easily on corner exit, if anything I am finding more turn in than expected as the rear tire regains traction just like a real bike (gotta be near upright exiting a power slide proper to keep the speed up!). ;D
Between this, the FZ that just came out, and the multitude of other awesome bikes that have been created for GPB, I'm so thankful for the community and following this sim has. Thank you for the RC8, it makes me stay keen on doing some laps during my morning coffee. :)
New version of the FZ6? Where?
Thank you:)
Realy nice!!
first post updated , new download link
THX
I love riding this bike, and sounds.. ;)
Quote from: camillozockt on July 30, 2014, 01:08:26 PM
first post updated , new download link
So things changed? Version number in download would be help full !
I think this bike would be perfect to use in a championship for people who haven't quite mastered how to ride the 1000s yet. It's much more forgiving on the throttle.
Great work
I just have to wonder if it is the bike in real life that some individuals don't like? Maybe that's it? I don't know. I'm lost on this if I'm honest.
I have studied some close-up photos of the real life KTM racer and this mod looks pretty dam good to me. Very good indeed I would say. And no I am not biased either way.
grT
Quote from: Alby46 on August 02, 2014, 10:11:37 AM
i didn't say i don't like the model, i said i didn't like the physics. but that's just an opinion. when gp bikes italia released their first mod, the zip, a lot of people criticized, with constructive criticism and non. no one of them insulted anybody if they didn't like it...
Up until now, almost every bike mod has only replaced the visual appearances. We feel that each bike should have individual physics which means you have to learn and practice with each
bike to get the most from it. As you know no 2 bikes are the same with handling and like real life - bikes feel initially nicer than others to ride.
This bike incorporates the rear suspension/throttle steering change which we had found. This will be very different from what most people are used to from years of it being like that.
Personally I like it, and enjoy the challenge of mastering something new. ;D Feel free to copy/paste the "musarama" bike settings if you are afraid of a bike
which feels different :-)
Or feel free to suggest changes to the physics in order for it to be more real from your experience riding motorbikes in real life.
With you 100% and all of the way Rodney!
I have just spent a couple of hours riding this bike on beta 5b. I think congratulations are in order rather than inane detractions!
I really think you are onto something camillozockt and Rodney. I really do. I think it's brilliant!
One other great advantages with this excellent mod. is that it has tamed the beta 5b physics a tad and made them much more enjoyable. This is not the hairiest bike in the "world". But then again it's not meant to be is it? It's not the hairiest bike in real life either is it?
Please do not be put off camillozockt and Rodney. Your work is brilliant.
grT ;)
ok, suggestions:
- the bike feels rigid for being a superstock
- remove carbon brakes :)
Quote from: grimm on July 27, 2014, 04:57:20 PM
This bike achieves a level of perfection for me as a sim rider, it is forgiving in ways the GP1000 class just isn't, but, it's still blazing fast with the right approach. Love the feel of the huge mid range torque and the fact I can actually power slide the bike on a Soft/Soft tire setup with very little suspension adjustment. The rear end steps out a bit and it can be controlled rather easily on corner exit, if anything I am finding more turn in than expected as the rear tire regains traction just like a real bike (gotta be near upright exiting a power slide proper to keep the speed up!). ;D
Between this, the FZ that just came out, and the multitude of other awesome bikes that have been created for GPB, I'm so thankful for the community and following this sim has. Thank you for the RC8, it makes me stay keen on doing some laps during my morning coffee. :)
Just read this... ;D ;D
@Alby
We are working the changes you recommend and camillozockt update this mod shortly.
I agree the bikes does feel rigid. Perhaps slightly too rigid?
However this bike does have a reputation for the rigidity of its "feel" as I understand it. But I agree I think. Maybe it could do with being softened up a tad? But the physics of the bike personally I am finding to be quite interesting. Again it will be intriguing to sample this bike under beta 6 physics.
But an interesting bike nonetheless.
grT
It's nice to get a few controllable rear end slides on the power Rodney..beginning to feel a bit more like a real life motorcycle to me. It will flick you over the high-side quite nicely now if you are careless in coming off the throttle..a real life effect that is much needed imho in gpbikes. It's nice to feel that without having to load up the rear end unrealistically far too much.
My testing has been pretty much limited to Silverstone so far by the way. It seems to work really quite nicely round there.
grT ;)
Quote from: rodney007 on August 02, 2014, 09:32:44 PM
Or feel free to suggest changes to the physics in order for it to be more real from your experience riding motorbikes in real life.
I would have one or two (even if unrelated to the experience in riding in real life): the change you introduced on the tire model (the thing you call "
the rear suspension/throttle steering change which we had found") sounds technically very very suspect.
Also, just diffing some files I stumbled on this: your rc8 has a 17deg-20deg rake angle. That sounds utterly tiny for a street bike. Actually, 17deg is tiny for any bike if I recall correctly. Google seems to think the rc8 real rake angle is 23.3deg. That's a hell of a difference.
MaX.
P.S.
Can't try it yet, but the 3d seems pretty good to me from the pics.
A bit of this and a bit of that..we've all experienced it. Even on a track day.. :)
I thought I would post this just for fun. I'm not qualified to comment on Max'x post although I do take his point..
https://www.youtube.com/v/dw3fAkgPPTA
I love this bike even though I have to vomit when I see the front fairing (the cockpit looks very good though) :D
It feels really really great, the corner speed is nice and the power is perfect. Somehow you have even managed to get rid of the wobble issues.
You can close your lines very nicely if you let the rear step out a bit:
http://www.youtube.com/v/AO_LReTFjnc
In my opinion this should become the new standard physics for all 1000cc bikes (maybe just a little bit more power and less engine brake for the four cylinder bikes).
Have you noticed Vin it's not snapping back and over-correcting itself at the end of the slide? That for me is more realistic of real life. Provided you come off the throttle carefully..
I think this is very interesting indeed if I am honest. I personally think Rodney needs to delve into this more deeply and experiment with it. It just feels "right" to me. So far at least.
grT
Yes, this kind of controlled powerslide was very hard to achieve with other bikes and almost impossible before beta5.
I think this bike just stopped me from quitting GP Bikes.
It's so amazing.
Rodney please take this physics file and adapt it to the four cylinder bikes, this is just amazing. We don't even need a beta6 now (unless the core.exe crashes will be fixed ::)).
Quote from: vin97 on August 03, 2014, 12:35:48 AM
Yes, this kind of controlled powerslide was very hard to achieve with other bikes and almost impossible before beta5.
Thats because the other bikes have little changed between them, 4B was actually where we found out how to do this and still feels better than 5B.
Guys... We actually made a full set of differing physics for the RC8 that I am sure 90% of you will REALLY like, we limited only a few changes to the release as we thought it will be too different for alot of players.
Now seeing that you are enjoying these physics changes to the bike Camillo and I are preparing the patch to fully implement the bikes physics into the game. The changes are subtle but effect almost every variable of the bike and offers a 100% new riding feel. Stay tuned as this should be ready within 24 hours.
Quote from: vin97 on August 03, 2014, 12:41:33 AM
I think this bike just stopped me from quitting GP Bikes.
It's so amazing.
Rodney please take this physics file and adapt it to the four cylinder bikes, this is just amazing. We don't even need a beta6 now (unless the core.exe crashes will be fixed ::)).
There are few changes that I can implement which will fix the issues with 5B however the big issue is as you mention "cores".
Quote from: HornetMaX on August 02, 2014, 11:10:51 PM
Quote from: rodney007 on August 02, 2014, 09:32:44 PM
Or feel free to suggest changes to the physics in order for it to be more real from your experience riding motorbikes in real life.
I would have one or two (even if unrelated to the experience in riding in real life): the change you introduced on the tire model (the thing you call "the rear suspension/throttle steering change which we had found") sounds technically very very suspect.
Also, just diffing some files I stumbled on this: your rc8 has a 17deg-20deg rake angle. That sounds utterly tiny for a street bike. Actually, 17deg is tiny for any bike if I recall correctly. Google seems to think the rc8 real rake angle is 23.3deg. That's a hell of a difference.
MaX.
P.S.
Can't try it yet, but the 3d seems pretty good to me from the pics.
Going off the paper work doesn't help. This game is only real to a certain point. "breaking the rules" is needed in order to have the right feel.
Visually and handling wise the Rake is correct,
we spent alot of time changing this despite what the geom file tells you. Anything I change to you is "suspect".
because you look at numbers and I go by feel.
Who cares if the values are realistic, if the game engine is not realistic we need to use fake data.
I am really looking forward to the new RC8 physics file.
Currently I am struggling with the engine braking a little bit but that is probably just due to the big V2 engine. That's why I suggested you create a physics file for the four cylinders bikes: You could turn the engine braking down and increase the power on these files and keep the rest the same.
OH MAN THIS IS AWESOME
http://www.youtube.com/v/OpARmfLvszQ
http://www.youtube.com/v/sFnHaXqHAAY
http://www.youtube.com/v/r55-dC0qPhs
;D
Rodney, as an experiment can you please, if you have time, do something similar on the 500cc 2 strokes? Pretty please?
grT ;)
Of course I want to test the new RC8 physics file you were talking about but I actually think that the rear wheel steering is perfect how it is now. If you increase it even more it will be too arcardy.
http://www.youtube.com/v/o8fWXpZIClk
...Can comebody please start a server with the RC8 installed? I really want to do some races with this bike.
Quote from: vin97 on August 03, 2014, 02:22:50 AM
Of course I want to test the new RC8 physics file you were talking about but I actually think that the rear wheel steering is perfect how it is now. If you increase it even more it will be too arcardy.
http://www.youtube.com/v/o8fWXpZIClk
...Can comebody please start a server with the RC8 installed? I really want to do some races with this bike.
The changes are in relation to the bikes feeling and response overall, the feedback in which the front-end and rear give. The rear tire effect is basically the same with only wear patterns
changed.
Ok, good.
Quote from: vin97 on August 03, 2014, 02:22:50 AM
Of course I want to test the new RC8 physics file you were talking about but I actually think that the rear wheel steering is perfect how it is now. If you increase it even more it will be too arcardy.
http://www.youtube.com/v/o8fWXpZIClk
...Can comebody please start a server with the RC8 installed? I really want to do some races with this bike.
Any server running Bike MOD 1.95 would have the RC8R on it.
I like the RC8R, I wanted this bike for a while. it's actually a bookmark of the real one on my web browser tool bar. lol http://www.ktm.com/supersport/1190-rc8-r-eu/highlights.html#.U3QTjyi9bzA (http://www.ktm.com/supersport/1190-rc8-r-eu/highlights.html#.U3QTjyi9bzA)
DST it feels slightly different, the tires slide a little more. But the tires slide without the virtual rider with default physics too. Since if you hit the gas to hard the back end will come around. This has less of a snap to it the the 990 based bikes. The violent wobble I can't really comment on. I am 90% sure it has to do with the virtual rider calculations. Since with DST it has never really been there in Beta 5b for me.
(Also posted on DST Thread) DST Practice, first time riding the KTM RC8R at Mallory Park 1978.
DST Mallory Park 1978 KTM RC8R:
http://www.youtube.com/v/ZwEceb8dU7w
On a side not I notice in some angles the front of the bike seems like it's in shadow when the light source shouldn't be making a shadow then.
Quote from: Klax75 on August 03, 2014, 04:43:49 AM
I like the RC8R, I wanted this bike for a while. it's actually a bookmark of the real one on my web browser tool bar. lol http://www.ktm.com/supersport/1190-rc8-r-eu/highlights.html#.U3QTjyi9bzA (http://www.ktm.com/supersport/1190-rc8-r-eu/highlights.html#.U3QTjyi9bzA)
DST it feels slightly different, the tires slide a little more. But the tires slide without the virtual rider with default physics too. Since if you hit the gas to hard the back end will come around. This has less of a snap to it the the 990 based bikes. The violent wobble I can't really comment on. I am 90% sure it has to do with the virtual rider calculations. Since with DST it has never really been there in Beta 5b for me.
(Also posted on DST Thread) DST Practice, first time riding the KTM RC8R at Mallory Park 1978.
DST Mallory Park 1978 KTM RC8R:
http://www.youtube.com/v/ZwEceb8dU7w
On a side not I notice in some angles the front of the bike seems like it's in shadow when the light source should be making a shadow then.
nice klax! looks like your enjoying that mate ;)
so does it feel good with dst?
Well, clearly this bike does have some instant appeal to a number of us. A bike simulation should and must incorporate an ability to rear wheel steer to a realistic and sensible degree. It should be difficult and very challenging to rear wheel steer and there should always be the imminent threat of a high-side lurking if you overdo it. And no I am not talking about monster 75 ft slides..I am talking about rear wheel steering as witnessed and employed by riders in real life racing all the time. It's part and parcel of the technique required in taking a racing motorcycle round a track competitively. Not every bend and not necessarily every lap. But the phenomenon of rear wheel steering should be there to tap into and use at your peril and to your advantage whilst racing. In my honest opinion. It should be initiated by throttle control. Not by throttle control necessarily combined with an excess requirement in having to load up the rear end with excessive "momentum" across the track surface and/or across a track surface that is comprised of imperfections and/or undulations. Although obviously such track characteristics do provide an additional "catalyst" in encouraging and/or increasing the intensity of slides. But throttle should be "King" in this. As we all know..
As I say I think this is a very interesting "experiment" in modifying the physics Rodney. None of us want arcade style handling traits. I would pack up on gpbikes tomorrow if that was the case. No thank you very much! That is not why any of us are here. But if this is explored carefully and sensibly and the end result remains very challenging and true to real life then this has to be, in my opinion, a step in the right direction. I want this to be difficult enough so that not everybody accessing gpbikes will be able to rear wheel steer. Just like real life. I do not want it to be like motogp14!
Also I am mindful in this that this is quite a departure for gpbikes. Not everyone is going to fall off their chair(s) whilst shouting positive expletives. Everyone's opinion counts in this. And Max's concerns and opinions with this should also be listened to.. At the end of the day, however, it is a sympathetic ear from PiBoSo and his development team that is required here. It's their baby so to speak. It is them who need to be convinced of the merits of this.
But having said all that..I like the effect very much Rodney.
grT ;)
P.S. how do you do that Klax? Amazing.
Quote from: rodney007 on August 03, 2014, 12:43:33 AM
Anything I change to you is "suspect".
It may be true most of the times, but in this specific case it is not: if you had the knowledge of what you have done on the tires and if you were able to understand what I've explained about a potential tire model issue a while ago (http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=1320.msg17177#msg17177 (http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=1320.msg17177#msg17177)), you would realize that (part of) your change goes in the direction I was mentioning.
Quote from: girlracerTracey on August 03, 2014, 08:05:12 AM
Also I am mindful in this that this is quite a departure for gpbikes. Not everyone is going to fall off their chair(s) whilst shouting positive expletives. Everyone's opinion counts in this. And Max's concerns and opinions with this should also be listened to.. At the end of the day, however, it is a sympathetic ear from PiBoSo and his development team that is required here.
I'm only making comments, I'm in no way asking rodney to change his creation, he can do whatever he wants, as any other modder. As said by Alby (in a very polite manner, surely more polite than the reply he got back), the ones that do not like the end result will just not use the bike.
But as the idea was for the modders to gather feedback, feedback has been provided. Some very positive, some less, some very negative.
Concerning the "sympathetic ear from PiBoSo", I may disagree with him on some aspects, but the one principle he has on top of his list and on which I totally agree is: GPB is a simulator, it tries (as much as possible) to be true to physics ad real life. If something is wrongly simulated, he tries to fix the simulator, not to tweak some value just because the end result feels great (to some). And I (and others) thanks him daily for that.
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on August 03, 2014, 11:16:42 AM
In the above, alpha is the sideslip angle of the tire while gamma is the camber angle. What the above means is that when both alpha and gamma are large, the formula used may underestimate the lateral force the tire generates. In practice, on a turn with the bike leaning significantly and the front tire "not pointing in the direction of motion" (i.e. significant sideslip angle), the front tire could generate less lateral force than it should.
(http://www.familytreecounseling.com/javansblog/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/mindblown.jpg)
FIRST POST UPDATED
to the physics update:
the game crashes every time i crash with the new physicfiles.
and i have a question:
y is the geom file from murra 990?
We were afraid of this, File updated, shouldn't crash now - Check Victoria
Quote from: JJS209 on August 04, 2014, 09:31:37 AM
to the physics update:
the game crashes every time i crash with the new physicfiles.
and i have a question:
y is the geom file from murra 990?
Hi,
Its the base file, most values have been changed only need to ignore the name. ;D
Is the game still crashing? We think it was due to the increased steering damper force. The games core.exe is very fustrating
In truth I couldn't agree more Bob. :)
grT
i did a few laps on laguna seca and it feels great, subjective better than before.
no crashes anymore.
€: i made the front little bit harder (27 N/m and 169 ml oil i think) to be able to break full with 18mm frontbreak
and i think its not anymore that easy to slide it on cornerexit with the throttle.
Quote from: JJS209 on August 04, 2014, 10:10:55 AM
i did a few laps on laguna seca and it feels great, subjective better than before.
no crashes anymore.
€: i made the front little bit harder (27 N/m and 169 ml oil i think) to be able to break full with 18mm frontbreak
and i think its not anymore that easy to slide it on cornerexit with the throttle.
Thanks for your feedback, is the rear end still giving you the same feedback?
This is open forum and is to be improved so any considerations will be taken on board.
Rodney007 had made an error in the Soft rear tyre and this is now fixed.
Please re-download the file if you already had it.
Quote from: JJS209 on August 04, 2014, 10:10:55 AM
i did a few laps on laguna seca and it feels great, subjective better than before.
no crashes anymore.
€: i made the front little bit harder (27 N/m and 169 ml oil i think) to be able to break full with 18mm frontbreak
and i think its not anymore that easy to slide it on cornerexit with the throttle.
It should feel better now.
camillo are u able to setup a server with actual ktm release? laguna or maybe spa? :)
Anyway, the new physics is a lot better.
The feel for the rear under acceleration (especially on qualify tyres) is better and the new tyre wear simulation is very realistic. If you want to run soft tyres in a race you could quite possibly have to manage the amount of powerslides to finish the race, I like that!
The braking is awesome now. The feel for the front is improved, yes, but I think the main reason for the improvement is the engine braking which has been reduced or made better to control by the better rear wheel feel.
The wobbles are completely gone now ;D
Thanks for the feedback Vin. I'm off to try it properly for myself right now. ;)
grT
@camillo
Is there anyone trying to fix the chain? its very disturbing when riding in 3D, it seems too move from right to left (graphicly).
Quote from: PeterV on August 04, 2014, 05:35:20 PM
@camillo
Is there anyone trying to fix the chain? its very disturbing when riding in 3D, it seems too move from right to left (graphicly).
i noticed that too !! yeah sure ! :)
Here is a little comparison between the old and the new physics (the first part is the new physics).
As you can see, even longer and smoother powerslides are possible now.
http://www.youtube.com/v/DzRWqdGMDf8
Quote from: vin97 on August 04, 2014, 09:07:29 PM
Here is a little comparison between the old and the new physics (the first part is the new physics).
As you can see, even longer and smoother powerslides are possible now.
http://www.youtube.com/v/DzRWqdGMDf8
;D
Wow great skill... Your power slides are very good!
The great thing is you wear your tires to much.
If you are less aggressive with the tire you can feel where it wears and get less laps from them or keep
some grip until the later stage of a race.
Make some more videos please!
Ok, i have tried the update and i must say i`m impressed. You managed to eliminate the wheelie & wobble problem for the full 100%, amazing. But..yes there is always a but, i have the feeling the bike is to forgiving at the moment. There is no more flexing in the chassis it seems and it feels like the suspension absorbs every bump there is to absorb without unsettling the bike at all. The sliding is fun yes, but at no point am i challenged to use the full range of my abilities on this bike. It`s a very easy to pick up and ride bike, but i was wondering if that was the idea behind having a STK class?
Well, you forget that you have been playing the game for a while, you should not be struggling with riding this bike :D
In my opinion the bike is perfect.
On which track did you test the bike? About which bumps are you talking about? You don't see the bikes in MotoGP wobbling even if there are tiny bumps.
The only point where I don't feel challanged enough is the power. I think that it should not be possible to go full throttle in second gear and not flip the bike.
Quote from: JamoZ on August 04, 2014, 10:46:45 PM
There is no more flexing in the chassis it seems
Uh ? GPB has never had any sort of chassis flexibility.
MaX.
The bike seems more stiff, whatever..i don`t care. Leave me alone! :'(
I am very emotional after today...
LOL ! ;D
Quote from: JamoZ on August 04, 2014, 10:46:45 PM
Ok, i have tried the update and i must say i`m impressed. You managed to eliminate the wheelie & wobble problem for the full 100%, amazing. But..yes there is always a but, i have the feeling the bike is to forgiving at the moment. There is no more flexing in the chassis it seems and it feels like the suspension absorbs every bump there is to absorb without unsettling the bike at all. The sliding is fun yes, but at no point am i challenged to use the full range of my abilities on this bike. It`s a very easy to pick up and ride bike, but i was wondering if that was the idea behind having a STK class?
Quotebut at no point am i challenged to use the full range of my abilities on this bike
I understand, IMO (<--- that means in my own opinion) harder is not better all the time.
I use a Logitech G25 wheel with force feedback, Although visually there is much less wobble the feedback travels through the wheel so even though you cant see it. Unfortunately there is still something that exists but yes it is much much less.
Thanks for the feedback and can relate to your comments. Feel free to offer a recommendation that I can work on and send you some files to test.
Quote from: JamoZ on August 04, 2014, 11:06:48 PM
The bike seems more stiff, whatever..i don`t care. Leave me alone! :'(
I am very emotional after today...
We are all recovering ... :'( ;D
Quote from: JamoZ on August 04, 2014, 11:06:48 PM
The bike seems more stiff, whatever..i don`t care. Leave me alone! :'(
I am very emotional after today...
That's what you get when you tell the world you only come here to troll me ;D
More seriously, chassis flexibility (mostly fork and swing arm lateral bending) may be interesting to have in GPB: they do play a role at high lean angles.
MaX.
Hmm, the feeling of a flexing chassis and it's effect on the handling of the bike will be very hard to implement in a game.
Very nice physics i like it very much !
Whobble aren't gone to 100/100.Front handling is very good.
But i don't like the sound of the bike.
When falling time is reduced :)
Quote from: vin97 on August 04, 2014, 11:38:51 PM
Hmm, the feeling of a flexing chassis and it's effect on the handling of the bike will be very hard to implement in a game.
That's what I was thinking.
As we can only feel so much compared to real as well. Certain handling traits given through the bike in real life
we unfortunately will never be able to simulate (or could we :-)?).
MaX lets get technical :-)!
Maybe if we mod an electrical massage chair :D
This is what is possible with this bike, powerslides anyone? ;D
*HD
http://www.youtube.com/v/B-4Num4y1fk&feature=youtu.be
Yes, the big smokey ones are pretty fun.
The challange for me is holding the slide as long as possible (starting it right after the apex).
Damn nice! you guys are good at laying down the rubber.
I like the bike. Very enjoyable.. I agree with jamoZ its a bit too easy to use! Im not saying it should be hard for hard sake but At the moment I can full throttle everywhere and brake as hard as I want without fear. My only concern is it may become boring.
Feeling from the tyres is great! Nice to see that increasing the damper helped stop the wobbles.. ::) its refreshing to not have to worry about the bikes front end all the time.. All in all a fantastic mod and it suits the stk class very well I think! Thanks :)
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on August 05, 2014, 04:52:15 AM
I like the bike. Very enjoyable.. I agree with jamoZ its a bit too easy to use! Im not saying it should be hard for hard sake but At the moment I can full throttle everywhere and brake as hard as I want without fear. My only concern is it may become boring.
Feeling from the tyres is great! Nice to see that increasing the damper helped stop the wobbles.. ::) its refreshing to not have to worry about the bikes front end all the time.. All in all a fantastic mod and it suits the stk class very well I think! Thanks :)
I agree, I am currently working on some changes and am having good results.
Try the SC H tire and tell me what you think compared to the soft rear in relation to how forgiving it is and if its any better.
good stuff! i will try that tonight when i get home.. il try and make a little video because i struggle to find the right words to give good feedback.. its deffinately on a good path though nice work!
Quote from: rodney007 on August 05, 2014, 12:09:36 AM
Quote from: vin97 on August 04, 2014, 11:38:51 PM
Hmm, the feeling of a flexing chassis and it's effect on the handling of the bike will be very hard to implement in a game.
That's what I was thinking.
As we can only feel so much compared to real as well. Certain handling traits given through the bike in real life
we unfortunately will never be able to simulate (or could we :-)?).
MaX lets get technical :-)!
On demand, let's do it. But I'll keep it understandable :)
Actually it's not that hard to simulate some chassis flexibility: simplifying a lot, it's not that different from the rear swing arm + its suspension. Allow the swing arm to move horizontally and put a (damped) spring on its side, and you have an horizontally flexible swing arm. Same goes for the fork (pivoting around it's anchor point, hence using torsional springs).
There are two questions though:
- One, is it worth it ? I.e. does flexibility have a reasonable impact ? In real life, it does. It even have impact on wobble, weave etc.
- And two, would Piboso be able to gather some real data about flexibility ? As I think he won't go for a "put a value and try" approach on that.
MaX.
You were right, the bike is a little bit too easy to handle. I didn't notice it before but when trail braking you can do 100% brake way too long.
I alread said that the bikes needs to wheelie more in my opinion.
But the general feeling, the powersliding and the lack of wobbles is good and not too easy.
EDIT: New video :D
http://www.youtube.com/v/n2O5C1v37qg
Quote from: vin97 on August 05, 2014, 03:50:39 PM
You were right, the bike is a little bit too easy to handle. I didn't notice it before but when trail braking you can do 100% brake way too long.
I alread said that the bikes needs to wheelie more in my opinion.
But the general feeling, the power-sliding and the lack of wobbles is good and not too easy.
I have spent all yesterday tuning things and did around 100 laps. This is what I have changed:
*Lowered overall grip (front and rear)- Bike is easier to initially power-slide (fun but not ideal for long races) but requires less effort to do so. Front tire
grip is significantly reduced especially when braking tipping into a corner.
*Braking-Significantly increased the likely hood of loosing the front end when braking in lean. In a straight line a bike is more likely to have a stoppie effect, however in lean is easier to brake loose due to the weight coming off the centre of the tire. This is a realistic effect
and I have crashed many times in real-life from this :o
i.e be careful braking when turning and ease off going into corner
*Front end stability-Significantly reduced wobble further more!,
I did not see/feel any even at very low speeds*Weight balance and torque-Bike is pulls up easier at low and medium speeds, there is a fine line between realistic and going back to what 5B is like so we must take care or we will be doing wheelies at 300kms! and we don't want that! (me anyway)
*Tire wear-Fixed front end wear, front tires now wear realistically and react to heat. Harder braking tipping into a corner on brakes repeatedly will cause them to overheat thus wearing them faster.
*Engine horsepower and torque-Bike has higher low and mid-range torque, horse power peaks and drops off as of a real V-Twin engine in contrast to an Inline GP style engine. Watch the throttle at lower RPMS.
Things I need to work on further:Chassis flex*I tried different things but to be honest this is too much at this stage to simulate let alone actual feel it as a computer game. Realistically suspension changes to simulate this is what I can think of (at this stage).
Are you guys thinking in corner or in a straight line or going in or coming out, on brakes or coming off brakes?
High speed traction levels*Due to the changes on 5B it is hard to define traction at higher speeds, I think this is a combination of aero force and chain simulation?
I am still doing some slight refinements however will upload the changes in around 12 hours for you guys to try.
Hmm, so sliding will be even easier.... I think this aspect of the physics was perfect.
The other changes sound good.
chassis flex.. no idea about that stuff :-\ at a guess chassis flex comes into play more when the bike is fully leant over? when the suspension is limited to what it can do on its side i guess chassis flex absorbes some of the forces? il be honest... no idea what im talking about here haha
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on August 05, 2014, 09:30:45 PM
chassis flex.. no idea about that stuff :-\ at a guess chassis flex comes into play more when the bike is fully leant over? when the suspension is limited to what it can do on its side i guess chassis flex absorbes some of the forces? il be honest... no idea what im talking about here haha
I am a firm believer of not trying to implement something for the sake of implementing it. Though if someone can find how to simulate this and it is beneficial then I am all for it
Quote from: vin97 on August 05, 2014, 08:55:55 PM
Hmm, so sliding will be even easier.... I think this aspect of the physics was perfect.
The other changes sound good.
I understand however, there was a bit too much grip, now there is slightly less so requires more precise throttle control. Longer slides are possible now but mean it is easier to push it to far. There is a good feel for where the tire is working best just before it breaks loose.
With any decently powered bike too much throttle will always spin the rear if you are not careful. I still need to get this more defined at thigh speed.
I am confident you guys should enjoy these changes.
Roll that stuff out, so i have something to do before i go to bed...i`m bored :P
Quote from: JamoZ on August 05, 2014, 10:30:46 PM
Roll that stuff out, so i have something to do before i go to bed...i`m bored :P
Sorry dude am at work :-( not long left tho...
Bedtime now, i`ll just cry myself to sleep :'(
Ok , in my opinion the bike is too easy to ride, you can abuse it all you want, what is not the real thing in a big Vtwin. Also wheeling is needed, a powerfull bike like this should wheelie with no hesitation in first , second gear at least.
Bike is fun to slide, but you ride with the feeling of an arcade game, Fun to make videos though ;D
I must say i'm not in favor of fake data to build the physics. Build them by feel is a quite subjetive matter. But maybe at some point this things can help Piboso in some way to get the real data to work better, so keep on the work :)
Some slides and a 360º ;D
https://www.youtube.com/v/NvUSfcjq11s
Quote from: Warlock on August 06, 2014, 02:30:52 AM
Some slides and a 360º ;D
That was a 360º Travis Pastrana would be proud of :P
Lol nice 360 haha!
Check out my recent post to see what I have changed. I think you will be happy ;D
Thanks for the feedback guys appreciate it.
Wow! Amazing 360 deg spin there Warlock! I've never seen that done before..... JamoZ will have to ani-gif that one as your party piece! Lol ;D 8)
Hawk.
LOL, i knew he was a former ballet hero....nice one m8.
Okay, v1.2 is updated here are the changes...
Lowered overall grip (front and rear)
-Bike is easier to loose traction during lean when on throttle, significantly more throttle control is
needed in order to find the "sweet spot" and not over use/heat or slide the tire.
Tire wear
-Corrected grip of the front tire and wear factors, harder braking into corners will cause heat and excessive wear
of the front tire. Balance this to save grip for the last laps of a race.
Braking
-Braking more than 20% in lean will cause the front wheel to lock (lowside), this requires strong initial braking
and then a smooth ease off the brake into the corner.
Weight
-Bike weight has been reconfigured which implicates the suspension and how the bike wheelies
Front end
-Further reduced wobble (95% gone) and a more stable front end overall.
Wheelie
-Bike is significantly easier to wheelie and allows for some nice ones coming out of corners
Engine
-Engine torque significantly increased and shifted more to low and mid areas. Horsepower peaks earlier
drops off at higher rpms as that of a V-Twin engine.
nice, ill try it now. a performance diagramm would be very nice ;)
€:
ok i tryed it and biggest thing for me is that the bike is now nearly all the time lowsiding when its in slow corners.
i used different suspensionsettings. the default, then all values middle also preload, then low bump and high rebound, high and low frontspring...
i am all over lowsiding when the bike is in slow corners e.g. 1st double left after start/finish in laguna.
breaking is more or less only possible when rider full up on straight.
very sensitive and difficult for me to break into corners in comparison to GP1000 or GP500 bikes.
Quote from: JJS209 on August 06, 2014, 12:22:04 PM
nice, ill try it now. a performance diagramm would be very nice ;)
€:
ok i tryed it and biggest thing for me is that the bike is now nearly all the time lowsiding when its in slow corners.
i used different suspensionsettings. the default, then all values middle also preload, then low bump and high rebound, high and low frontspring...
i am all over lowsiding when the bike is in slow corners e.g. 1st double left after start/finish in laguna.
breaking is more or less only possible when rider full up on straight.
very sensitive and difficult for me to break into corners in comparison to GP1000 or GP500 bikes.
It is hard but try to do most of your braking in straight line then "ease off" into the corner, it does allow for breaking when leaning
but not as much as default bikes of GP-Bikes. As I said less than 20%,
Try a bit more... if others agree its too aggressive it can be adjusted easily.
ok rodney but what is it with the front end in the slow corners? that the bigger problem for me.
Quote from: JJS209 on August 06, 2014, 02:29:23 PM
ok rodney but what is it with the front end in the slow corners? that the bigger problem for me.
Hmmn personally I am not getting low-side unless I brake too much, however I will test more tomorrow (almost 3 am here)
Quick first impressions ;
The bike feels alot more alive overall, it wobbles here and there but in a very realistic and predictable manner and also the engine has that little bit more bite it needed to make it more challenging.
The problem with the front wasn`t really a issue for me as i`ve always braked in the way Rodney explained, so i didn`t really need to adapt. However i think the angle/limit on which the front wheel blocks and goes away during braking might be increased just a tiny bit, maybe 5% but if this doesn`t happen it wouldn`t be a big issue.
The only problem i`ve ran into in the 10 laps i was doing on Laguna Seca, was that the rear wheel would slide away from under me during accelerating in 2/3rd gear in a strange way. Like i had grease or oil on my back wheel, or a very worn tire. Could this be due to not getting enough heat into the tires to start gripping? Because i wasn`t really giving it my 100% and more just paying attention to the bike behaviour overall.
Other than that, i would say this bike is damn close to being one of the best mods we have so far for GP bikes ;)
In DST, I'm having a issue after like 2 laps at Silverstone the tires are shot. As if I had done 20-30 laps on them. :/
Quote from: JamoZ on August 06, 2014, 07:43:59 PM
Quick first impressions ;
The bike feels alot more alive overall, it wobbles here and there but in a very realistic and predictable manner and also the engine has that little bit more bite it needed to make it more challenging.
The problem with the front wasn`t really a issue for me as i`ve always braked in the way Rodney explained, so i didn`t really need to adapt. However i think the angle/limit on which the front wheel blocks and goes away during braking might be increased just a tiny bit, maybe 5% but if this doesn`t happen it wouldn`t be a big issue.
The only problem i`ve ran into in the 10 laps i was doing on Laguna Seca, was that the rear wheel would slide away from under me during accelerating in 2/3rd gear in a strange way. Like i had grease or oil on my back wheel, or a very worn tire. Could this be due to not getting enough heat into the tires to start gripping? Because i wasn`t really giving it my 100% and more just paying attention to the bike behaviour overall.
Other than that, i would say this bike is damn close to being one of the best mods we have so far for GP bikes ;)
100% agree with all of that...
cheers hawk ;D
f*#ked that up completely.. ^^ ::)
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on August 06, 2014, 08:24:09 PM
f*#ked that up completely.. ^^ ::)
Lol..... It's easily done. :)
You can edit your post to put it right by clicking on the "Modify" tab near the "Quote" tab of your post above. ;)
Hawk.
Quote from: JamoZ on August 06, 2014, 07:43:59 PM
Quick first impressions ;
The bike feels alot more alive overall, it wobbles here and there but in a very realistic and predictable manner and also the engine has that little bit more bite it needed to make it more challenging.
The problem with the front wasn`t really a issue for me as i`ve always braked in the way Rodney explained, so i didn`t really need to adapt. However i think the angle/limit on which the front wheel blocks and goes away during braking might be increased just a tiny bit, maybe 5% but if this doesn`t happen it wouldn`t be a big issue.
The only problem i`ve ran into in the 10 laps i was doing on Laguna Seca, was that the rear wheel would slide away from under me during accelerating in 2/3rd gear in a strange way. Like i had grease or oil on my back wheel, or a very worn tire. Could this be due to not getting enough heat into the tires to start gripping? Because i wasn`t really giving it my 100% and more just paying attention to the bike behaviour overall.
Other than that, i would say this bike is damn close to being one of the best mods we have so far for GP bikes ;)
Thanks for your help JamoZ its very beneficial, tell me, can you run the same test again and when it happens check the tire wear and temp. I am sure this is the case and durability may need to be increased, brake lean lockup point easy to change too.
I must say its so enjoyable to ride like this and excited to where we can take it.
Quote from: Warlock on August 06, 2014, 02:30:52 AM
Bike is fun to slide, but you ride with the feeling of an arcade game...
+1
Quote from: Warlock on August 06, 2014, 02:30:52 AM
I must say i'm not in favor of fake data to build the physics. Build them by feel is a quite subjetive matter.
Exactly, 100% my opinion! (guess that's why we are teammates ;) ) still, testing does not hurt...
Now it`s quite the opposite to be honest. Without traction control this bike now feels like one of the old 2 strokes where it highsides you without warning and with the slighest touch of the throttle. I haven`t seen anything strange with tire temps Rodney, i just thought that the default tires wore slightly quicker then normal. Right now the moment between sliding and crashing is very abrupt and quite the opposite of the easy feeling of the previous physics. Keep in mind that i test this bike without anti wheelie system & traction control, so my feedback is based on that.
i agree with that stout/warlock.. although i think its good that people are trying things out.. i think some positives will come from this for sure ;) as you may know i keep banging on about adjustable steering dampers lol so im intrested along those lines...
id be carefull not to spend too much time doing it though rodney because nobody knows when beta6 will appear.. or what it will be like!
this ktm might be completely different with beta6.. just a heads up really, i know its none of my buisness..
I think it's got a bit too much power now. It does 340 km/h on Mugello with succesfull braking
Ok guys thanks for that.
Engine:
Engine has been rolled back and top speed corrected
Rear tire:
Rear tires has been rolled back to previous version
Others:
Weight and braking left the same
Download updated.
I had the same impression of v1.2.
Smooth slides were very hard and the feel for the rear wheel was worse. Also, once sliding the engine would rev to the redline as if the bike got on oil. It's good that you changed the rear to the old version.
I liked the increased power.
I haven't done that much testing but for me the feel for the front was not so good. With the 990 there is a point where you can feel the front wobble and lock up but with the 1.2 KTM the bike just falls over without any warning.
I will test v1.3 now.
Quote from: JamoZ on August 06, 2014, 09:23:00 PM
Now it`s quite the opposite to be honest. Without traction control this bike now feels like one of the old 2 strokes where it highsides you without warning and with the slighest touch of the throttle. I haven`t seen anything strange with tire temps Rodney, i just thought that the default tires wore slightly quicker then normal. Right now the moment between sliding and crashing is very abrupt and quite the opposite of the easy feeling of the previous physics. Keep in mind that i test this bike without anti wheelie system & traction control, so my feedback is based on that.
+1
I have not tested any of the physics versions with tcs or wheelie control turned on. Everything is turned off. Most definitely. I wanted to feel everything "raw" to try to gauge what was going on with the physics.
For me this whole exercise has proved itself to be an extremely worthwhile and interesting experiment. The earlier physics versions were too arcade for me. I found them great fun to ride but a little bit too close to the periphery of "arcade land" for my liking if I am absolutely honest. Which is not I think what anyone here on gpbikes wants. I certainly do not anyway. But no with the latest physics version 1.2 and with
everything tcs-wise turned off I am now beginning to feel a really interesting depth and character to Rodney's physics model.
For me that gpbikes "
rubber band" sensation of the rear wheel being held in place by "invisible forces" when you apply the power exiting a curve &/or deliberately attempt to rear wheel steer on the power has now gone. So for me at least Rodney's experiment has been a success. You can now apply the throttle to slide the rear like in real life. The rear tyre imo now responds to throttle input more like a rear tyre does in real life on the racetrack. Rear wheel steering apart I do quite like the overall physics model as well although like others I am experiencing a few "low-sides" as I have always been a front-end style of rider who brakes progressively into bends and if possible up to the apex of bends. It does not feel natural to me to finish my braking whilst upright. But that's just me I guess..so for me front end is a bit "suspect".
Where you take this Rodney I'm really not quite sure. I don't know about the numbers but I do know this feels, for me at least as a "first blush" , more like a real life racing motorcycle should in terms of rear tyre behaviour on the power. Having said that I do fully understand and appreciate what PiBoSo, Max and others are saying about the numbers needing to tie-in. But for me the bumble bee seems to fly quite well..at least as far as an interesting experiment is concerned. It's your baby Rodney and it's fun cuddling it.. ;)
grT
Ok, just a small idea here...what about the 1.2 rear tire with the 1.3 engine? I think the slightly slippier rear tire & more powerfull engine of 1.2 together were a bit too much. But i liked the higher speed sliding of the 1.2 more. I feel we`re really close to the perfect physics for this bike here, it`s just a matter of things falling into place now..
Also, the braking/wheeling/wobbling etc are perfect now imo, for me there is no need to tune any of those further to be honest...
I have to disagree, in 1.3 there is too little wheelie and the front is still too unstable under braking. The rear wheel/slides on the other side are perfect.
I feel different, no problems during braking, but slides are a bit back on the arcade side again...wheelies/engine power might be upped a really small bit, but not anything as in 1.2
P.S. what was interesting for me was that I sort of replicated a rear wheel slide I experienced in real life on the exit to Riches at Snetterton on a worn rear tyre. I had the back end step out into quite a long power-slide and perhaps more through luck than good judgement I held the power on until the bike straightened itself out. Without much fuss or bother. Combination of a hot day and a worn/wearing rear tyre on my brother's race bike. I managed a very similar slide today on the exit to Riches at Snetterton on the RC8R on physics 1.2 on gpbikes.. I have never been able to do that previously on any bike in the gpbikes' line-up. So thumbs up from me.. ;)
Downloading version 1.3 now..
Ok, yeah, braking in 1.3 is ok, now that I have practiced a bit more. There could still be a little bit more feedback.
Wheelie definitely needs to be increased.
But I will keep my position on the slides. I find them good and not too arcady in 1.3.
Under versions 1.2 and 1.3 rear wheel is sliding too much on turn-in..much too much for me at least.
I'm not sure what you can do about that but it doesn't feel right to me..
Otherwise I sort of agree with Vin I think..
grT
Quote from: girlracerTracey on August 06, 2014, 11:15:00 PM
Under versions 1.2 and 1.3 rear wheel is sliding too much on turn-in..much too much for me at least.
I don't really understand what you mean by that.
And besides, I think all versions except 1.2 have (almost) the same rear wheel (only the tyre wear was changed between them).
Yes 1.3 rear wheel feels the same as 1.1.
Hmm, if the sudden grip loss on the rear wheel wouldn`t have been an issue, i would say 1.2 was close to perfect. 1.3 is a step back from 1.2 imo...
Quote from: vin97 on August 06, 2014, 11:18:28 PM
Quote from: girlracerTracey on August 06, 2014, 11:15:00 PM
Under versions 1.2 and 1.3 rear wheel is sliding too much on turn-in..much too much for me at least.
I don't really understand what you mean by that.
And besides, I think all versions except 1.2 have (almost) the same rear wheel (only the tyre wear was changed between them).
Well I mean that from the point of turn-in for certain bends I am getting slides from the rear tyre in response to the physical forces acting on the rear wheel from the process of turning in..I am not quite sure how else to explain it. But it is the same effect as you sometimes get in real life on the race track..I perhaps need Max here to stipulate the correct physical forces..but again you get a more pronounced effect of this type in real life on a wearing rear tyre.
Maybe I am noticing this more now that I am beginning to push the bike a bit harder..
grT
@ JamoZ: Yes, the sliding itself was good in 1.2 but the transition from grip to no grip was too abrubt and the engine instantly reving up the limiter was strange.
Wheelie, braking (now that I've got used to it) and tyre wear was also good in 1.2.
@ Tracey: I think it's just the engine braking that's causing this behaviour. Before you turn in (under heavy braking) the rear wheel has already lost traction but you don't notice it because the bike is still straight. Once turned in the rear wheel will slide away. IMO your problem does not have anything to do with the rodney's new (rear wheel/powerslide) physics.
In DST with 1.3 after about 8 laps at Silverstone the front wheel will randomly just fold on me. Doesn't matter what speed I am at, or if I am braking or not. It will just randomly fold and I'll slide out. Didn't do this in 1.2.
I also agree about like the slightly more powerful version.
I think it's just the front tyre wearing a lot faster when you do a lot of trailbraking.
Ye but 1.2 was too powerfull, i did 325 on barcelona...a STK bike should not be able to reach those speeds :P
Then it's the weight distribution that needs to be changed.
Thank you very much for the feedback guys , you really test the bike and tell us !! The problem is, now it gets even more difficult , because we want to make everyone happy ;D !!
About the wheelie : in reallife this bike doesnt wheelie in 3rd gear only with throttle !
And it also doesnt go way over 320 (at least the stk , except you modify it ) !!
This bike is very powerfull , but not that powerfull ! You can still wheelie it with the clutch and we still wanna keep it realistic !!
Rear tire : i think in v1.2 the tire feeld like ( someone said that too ) it has some oil on it , so we rolld that one back !
The bike has a complete different gameplay , the challenge is not how far you can powerslide it ( maybe we can do some drift racing ^^ ) , its about: how do i race it 10-15 laps with one set of tires !! But i think the powersliding is still better than motogp 2014 !! Its just very exciting and new , because this wasnt really possible before !! There is just a new challenge !! In my personal opinion , the bike feels very realistic !
Some aspects cant be really simulated , because its still a game !!!
We hope to get it to a point , where everyone is happy !!
Quote from: vin97 on August 06, 2014, 11:26:44 PM
@ Tracey: I think it's just the engine braking that's causing this behaviour. Before you turn in (under heavy braking) the rear wheel has already lost traction but you don't notice it because the bike is still straight. Once turned in the rear wheel will slide away. IMO your problem does not have anything to do with the rodney's new (rear wheel/powerslide) physics.
Yes I think that could explain it Vin. As you know I am not running any tcs of any type at all..and I am not used to v-twins..!
I have experienced the effect I described though in real life. Particularly on turn-in into high speed bends..the rear tyre struggling to follow the front tyre. On the limit. I thought it was that..
I'll try it with some tcs on engine braking. Hopefully that will cure it!
grT
Quote from: girlracerTracey on August 06, 2014, 11:43:40 PM
As you know I am not running any tcs of any type at all..
Well, who does that, lol
I am currently very happy with 1.3, the braking is good, the sliding/rear feel is good and if you say the wheelies are realistic then there is nothin I can argue about.
Quote from: camillozockt on August 06, 2014, 11:39:59 PM
Thank you very much for the feedback guys , you really test the bike and tell us !! The problem is, now it gets even more difficult , because we want to make everyone happy ;D !!
About the wheelie : in reallife this bike doesnt wheelie in 3rd gear only with throttle !
And it also doesnt go way over 320 (at least the stk , except you modify it ) !!
This bike is very powerfull , but not that powerfull ! You can still wheelie it with the clutch and we still wanna keep it realistic !!
Rear tire : i think in v1.2 the tire feeld like ( someone said that too ) it has some oil on it , so we rolld that one back !
The bike has a complete different gameplay , the challenge is not how far you can powerslide it ( maybe we can do some drift racing ^^ ) , its about: how do i race it 10-15 laps with one set of tires !! But i think the powersliding is still better than motogp 2014 !! Its just very exciting and new , because this wasnt really possible before !! There is just a new challenge !! In my personal opinion , the bike feels very realistic !
Some aspects cant be really simulated , because its still a game !!!
We hope to get it to a point , where everyone is happy !!
That all sounds very encouraging to me Camillo. Thank you. Only thing I would say is this feels really fresh and interesting to me but please try to make it as difficult as possible, whilst leaving power slides at least accessible, to rear wheel steer the bike. I'm just a bit nervous of this becoming a tiny bit too arcade that's all..I am just so keen for it to reflect real life and not go any further..
But sincere thanks for all your hard work!
grT
Quote from: vin97 on August 07, 2014, 12:13:14 AM
Well, who does that, lol
Yeah bring back the days when there wasn't any tcs at all I say! lol..proper racing! ;D
Normally I do..just haven't been doing so deliberately whilst testing these physics.
grT
Quote from: vin97 on August 07, 2014, 12:13:14 AM
Quote from: girlracerTracey on August 06, 2014, 11:43:40 PM
As you know I am not running any tcs of any type at all..
Well, who does that, lol
I am currently very happy with 1.3, the braking is good, the sliding/rear feel is good and if you say the wheelies are realistic then there is nothin I can argue about.
Thats how I learned to play GP Bikes, with TCS and Anti-Wheelie off. After my first time meeting JamoZ on track and his colorful (cough) lol way of speaking after he shared his setup with me. I turned those to things off to learn throttle control on the 1000cc. I didn't turn it back on til later. Since in beta 3 Anti-Wheelie didn't have steps it was either on or off.
Quote from: girlracerTracey on August 07, 2014, 12:14:06 AMmake it as difficult as possible, whilst leaving power slides at least accessible, to rear wheel steer the bike.
Well, it was possible before. It was just really really hard, too hard in my opinion, especially when you think about the fact that in MotoGP/SBK they are sliding the rear out of every corner and if they had no tyres or fuel to worry about, it would smoke just as much as it does in the GPB KTM videos.
I actually think that holding a long but 'non-smokey' slide (from the apex on, just as they do in MotoGP) is still extremely hard with the KTM. The best one I have managed to do was the first one (correction: second one) in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/v/DzRWqdGMDf8
EDIT:
I think I turned all the electronics off (and always used Qualify mapping) after one or two weeks of playing the game. Where is the fun when the computer is doing the work for you?
*I keep forgetting to Logout of Camillo account (He give me to release any changes)* in-case I make a mistake we are two different people :)
My testing was done with NO anti wheelie or TCS so I cant comment about these but should definitely be turned off and
the reason is GP-bikes controls these differently to systems in real life. So at this stage IMO TCS or anti wheelie don't work correctly.
Currently we have mixed results, some like 1.2, some 1.3 blah blah.
I think it will be hard to please everyone as you all have an idea of how it should be. Personally I like 1.3 and I think with minor tweaks to the torque,wheelie and a slight decrease
in the likely hood of wheel lockup it will be great and we can call it a day. Camillo and I have some projects lined up that should have you guys very happy
that we can experiment with further.
Without going overboard- what do you guys think about this idea?
@Vin
Nice riding and sliding, although this is not the objective of my changes soley - it is about using progressive throttle and before the point of slide, however very impressive!
also Vin which version is in this video? It looks great
Quote from: rodney007 on August 07, 2014, 01:31:21 AMit is about using progressive throttle and before the point of slide
Could you explain what exactly you mean by that?
This video was still done with the first Physics update ('v1.1' so to speak).
So, in v1.3 it works the same way.
I mean by controlling your throttle progressively rather than just jamming it fully open on every corner exit
I like the change made to the reflectiveness of the windscreen. Was wondering if a slight tint of color could be added? Maybe a little blue or grey. Right now sometimes I can't even see it's there. :) In the menu screen where you can pick the bike the wind screen has a slight tint to it. Thanks.
With it being a superstock 1000 and not a grand prix bike.. Id like a touch more grip from the rear and maybe back the sliding off a little bit? I wanna see the rear tyre dig in and squirm around on the power! ;D
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on August 06, 2014, 09:25:50 PM
as you may know i keep banging on about adjustable steering dampers lol so im intrested along those lines...
That's easy to play with (editing the bike's physics files). From a past exchange with Piboso:
Quote
Q: In the bike.cfg file, what are Damper and DamperPower in the steer section ? Probably related to some sort of steering damper, but how should we interpret them ?
R: Steer damper. Damping torque = Damper * (steer speed ^ DamperPower)
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on August 06, 2014, 09:25:50 PM
id be carefull not to spend too much time doing it though rodney because nobody knows when beta6 will appear.. or what it will be like!
this ktm might be completely different with beta6.. just a heads up really, i know its none of my buisness..
Sound advice, IMO.
Quote from: rodney007 on August 06, 2014, 10:24:27 PM
Engine:
Engine has been rolled back and top speed corrected
Any reason for not putting the real values for engine (and transmission) ?! It's a 10min job to find them on the web and once done it's done.
MaX.
Quote from: vin97 on August 07, 2014, 01:21:51 AM
Well, it was possible before. It was just really really hard, too hard in my opinion, especially when you think about the fact that in MotoGP/SBK they are sliding the rear out of every corner and if they had no tyres or fuel to worry about, it would smoke just as much as it does in the GPB KTM videos.
I actually think that holding a long but 'non-smokey' slide (from the apex on, just as they do in MotoGP) is still extremely hard with the KTM.
Yeah I agree. I'm playing Devil's advocate here to a certain extent. Deliberately. ;) In my honest and humble view I think the slides in gpbikes from my admittedly limited experience are as much caused by "
momentum" through the bend as they are/were caused by throttle input. I do not mean to sound outspoken in saying that but that is my honest take on how things feel/felt. I also agree that in modern era racing with all the electronic assistance provided real life racers are sliding pretty much all the time to a limited degree. It's all part and parcel of the necessary technique and approach to modern racing to get a motorcycle round a track as quickly as possible. I just wasn't feeling this in gpbikes to be honest and I do not wish to offend anyone in saying that..I really don't. I'm just trying to be honest. And I fully accept in saying this I am voicing only my own opinion. :)
My biggest area of consideration in this respect are the 500cc 2-stroke grand prix bikes. Again in my personal opinion the slides were more "momentum" slides than throttle induced slides. But this is a much more delicate and precisely defined aspect of power-sliding than it is with the modern 4 stroke bikes. It is as we all know a much, much finer edge with the 500s. Rear wheel power sliding/rear wheel steering on the "beasts" should be very, very challenging to access and very, very challenging to maintain and execute properly. I agree and bow to the expert opinion of the likes of Eduoard et al in this respect and I agree with them..
but in my honest & humble opinion rear wheel steering should be slightly more accessible than it currently is on the 500s in gpbikes. But that is just my own personal opinion and I'm sure others might disagree with me on this. :)
Returning to the modern 4 strokes the crucial thing to my mind is that sliding just for the sake of sliding is not the answer to fast lap times. It also burns your rear tyre out more quickly and puts some stress on your front tyre also in terms of wear. It's faster not to slide (at least not to slide excessively) the majority of time. But it is there if and when you need it. That's my take anyway. So in races using this physics model or a very similar one you would not be doing yourself too many favours at all by power-sliding too much..
Overall, with limited track time and less experience than you guys on gpbikes generally, I prefer version 1.3 if I am honest. With a few tweaks..
grT
....in.....
QuoteAny reason for not putting the real values for engine (and transmission) ?! It's a 10min job to find them on the web and once done it's done
you mean 10 seconds... 8)
Working on physics w/o using the real data is a waste of time...jm2ct
....and out......
I have to agree, why would the real engine values be changing from one version to another? Those should always be fixed to the actual bike values. Then the rest of the bike or tires should be adjusted around that to get the desired effect you want. Just putting in your own values for a well documented engine seems kind of odd. Seems more like personal preference how you want it to feel more then what the actual bike would be. :)
Quote from: Klax75 on August 07, 2014, 08:54:38 AM
I have to agree, why would the real engine values be changing from one version to another? Those should always be fixed to the actual bike values. Then the rest of the bike or tires should be adjusted around that to get the desired effect you want. Just putting in your own values for a well documented engine seems kind of odd. Seems more like personal preference how you want it to feel more then what the actual bike would be. :)
How do you know that GP-bikes correctly simulates a real life engine curve? its ok I am sure its just like real life ;D
I feel we have accomplished what we wanted here. 5B feels very bad to me without these changes (ridiculous wobble/erratic high speed wheelie etc)
So on this we end any more physics advancements.
Thanks for the input guys and whom helped test will be informed to help us on our soon-to come future projects :-)
i.e this one (almost done)
(http://i1106.photobucket.com/albums/h377/rodney007xx/core2014-08-0721-29-36-51.jpg)
Awwww yis 8)
I'm pretty sure your going to need a update again for beta 6. Since the Wobble only came up in Beta 5/5b. Wasn't in Beta 3-4/4b. So it's a known bug. :)
Quote from: Klax75 on August 07, 2014, 09:47:07 AM
I'm pretty sure your going to need a update again for beta 6. Since the Wobble only came up in Beta 5/5b. Wasn't in Beta 3-4/4b. So it's a known bug. :)
What about throttle steer? do the others have that? ;D Answer: No... lets see 6B if Piboso follow
To be honest with DST yes, all the bikes do to a certain extent. :)
Quote from: Klax75 on August 07, 2014, 09:52:09 AM
To be honest with DST yes, all the bikes do to a certain extent. :)
Ok Maybe you should make something then? ;D
lets all go DST
Anyway, good work on the bike.
Quote from: rodney007 on August 07, 2014, 09:34:16 AM
How do you know that GP-bikes correctly simulates a real life engine curve? its ok I am sure its just like real life ;D
Do you mean you have anything indicating that GPB does not simulate correctly the engine power curve ? :o
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on August 07, 2014, 10:17:32 AM
Quote from: rodney007 on August 07, 2014, 09:34:16 AM
How do you know that GP-bikes correctly simulates a real life engine curve? its ok I am sure its just like real life ;D
Do you mean you have anything indicating that GPB does not simulate correctly the engine power curve ? :o
MaX.
No I don't though to be perfectly honest I havn't a clue to import into this game.
Quote from: rodney007 on August 07, 2014, 10:23:37 AM
Quote from: HornetMaX on August 07, 2014, 10:17:32 AM
Quote from: rodney007 on August 07, 2014, 09:34:16 AM
How do you know that GP-bikes correctly simulates a real life engine curve? its ok I am sure its just like real life ;D
Do you mean you have anything indicating that GPB does not simulate correctly the engine power curve ? :o
No I don't though to be perfectly honest I havn't a clue to import into this game.
Not sure I understand you correctly: you mean you don't know how to put a real life power/torque diagram into GPB ?
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on August 07, 2014, 10:25:48 AM
Quote from: rodney007 on August 07, 2014, 10:23:37 AM
Quote from: HornetMaX on August 07, 2014, 10:17:32 AM
Quote from: rodney007 on August 07, 2014, 09:34:16 AM
How do you know that GP-bikes correctly simulates a real life engine curve? its ok I am sure its just like real life ;D
Do you mean you have anything indicating that GPB does not simulate correctly the engine power curve ? :o
No I don't though to be perfectly honest I havn't a clue to import into this game.
Not sure I understand you correctly: you mean you don't know how to put a real life power/torque diagram into GPB ?
MaX.
Yes that is correct
Noobs eh? Bloody clueless... ::)
Chuckle chuckle :D ;D
EDIT: joke by the way.. Im the most useless pc user on this forum! ;)
Quote from: girlracerTracey on August 07, 2014, 07:53:14 AM
Overall, with limited track time and less experience than you guys on gpbikes generally, I prefer version 1.3 if I am honest. With a few tweaks..
grT
Make that only very small tweaks and adjustments for me Rodney! It's pretty much spot-on for me tbh..
This bike is amazing! Seriously amazing. Sorry to "gush"..but for me it just feels
so right! I am getting punished with high sides at low and high speed on corner exits for being "ham-fisted" with the throttle.
The experience of taking this bike round Snetterton in particular is amazing. I am getting punished for being too clumsy with the throttle exiting both the flip-flop chicance onto the start and finish straight, the tight right hander onto the back straight and at higher speeds exiting Riches, Corams and the "Bomb-hole".. If you get is right you can rear wheel steer without "smoke" and it helps you adjust and tighten your line. Or if you choose you do not have to "spin" it up at all! Just like real life.
For me this represents quite a major "breakthrough".
I think PiBoSo's base physics are absolutely stunning. In my opinion however this "mod" in terms of rear wheel steering compliments and enhances PiBoSo's brilliant "original" physics engine very, very nicely.
Just my opinion. But so happy with this I thought I would just voice it.
grT :)
Quote from: girlracerTracey on August 07, 2014, 11:02:00 AM
Quote from: girlracerTracey on August 07, 2014, 07:53:14 AM
Overall, with limited track time and less experience than you guys on gpbikes generally, I prefer version 1.3 if I am honest. With a few tweaks..
grT
Make that only very small tweaks and adjustments for me Rodney! It's pretty much spot-on for me tbh..
This bike is amazing! Seriously amazing. Sorry to "gush"..but for me it just feels so right! I am getting punished with high sides at low and high speed on corner exits for being "ham-fisted" with the throttle.
The experience of taking this bike round Snetterton in particular is amazing. I am getting punished for being too clumsy with the throttle exiting both the flip-flop chicance onto the start and finish straight, the tight right hander onto the back straight and at higher speeds exiting Riches, Corams and the "Bomb-hole".. If you get is right you can rear wheel steer without "smoke" and it helps you adjust and tighten your line. Or if you choose you do not have to "spin" it up at all! Just like real life.
For me this represents quite a major "breakthrough".
I think PiBoSo's base physics are absolutely stunning. In my opinion however this "mod" in terms of rear wheel steering compliments and enhances PiBoSo's brilliant "original" physics engine very, very nicely.
Just my opinion. But so happy with this I thought I would just voice it.
grT :)
This is all I need ;D thanks for your support :)
we personally , in our own opinion , think that the bike feels very very realistic , more realistic than the other bikes !! its not possible to make everyone happy , piboso even managed to make everyone mad with beta5b ;D !! you now feel the power of the front brake , because it was arcade before on EVERY bike in gpbikes , i could brake with the gp1000 100% in the turn and didnt crash , now thats not realistic , the shifttime of the gp1000 isnt realistic , the wobble , the wheelie , it just doesnt feel RIGHT !!! now with the KTM , the wobble is gone , you can powerslide , the brakes are braking ^^ , throttle steer , you feel its weight , you FEEL THE BIKE !!! its very dynamic and there are some new challenges !!! we dont know what satisfies you , playing the bike and feel the bike or reading the data with correct values !!! more difficult doesnt mean better !! but define difficult , is difficult riding the bike or riding the bike 10-15 laps without crashing and messing up the tires and get fast laps !! we hope you enjoy the bike and appreciate the feedback
:)
Quote from: C21 on August 07, 2014, 08:33:42 AM
QuoteAny reason for not putting the real values for engine (and transmission) ?! It's a 10min job to find them on the web and once done it's done
you mean 10 seconds... 8)
Was adding some safety overhead :)
Nice to see you still around C21 !
MaX.
I like the bike and physics alot.. I really do! Its a brilliant mod! Great work by all involved ;)
My only concern for you guys is that all the problems in beta5b are being worked on.. They are known issues!
I doubt piboso intends to leave it how it is now..
I just hope there is a base setting for your ktm for when beta6 comes and you can adjust again to fit the stk class..
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on August 07, 2014, 11:33:50 AM
I like the bike and physics alot.. I really do! Its a brilliant mod! Great work by all involved ;)
My only concern for you guys is that all the problems in beta5b are being worked on.. They are known issues!
I doubt piboso intends to leave it how it is now..
I just hope there is a base setting for your ktm for when beta6 comes and you can adjust again to fit the stk class..
The objective was throttle steer and fixing the wobble just happened. Who knows... maybe this motivates him to hurry up :-)
Ahh ok! I understand now. :)
Thought this might raise a smile..
https://www.youtube.com/v/CMBar3SO6tI
GREAT !! thank you very much :D
i always have this feeling that things like this are staged but anyway , the bike would still win i think :)
i am not sure but i think he did a powerslide out of the last corner , because you can the see rubber line on the asphalt
what a great looking bike , the car personally is not my style but still......love my country ^^
KTM Focused Event KTM RC8 1/2
https://www.youtube.com/v/WaD259Iv1M4
There is a few more from this series. Cadwell Park, Silverstone, Brands Hatch.
Quote from: Klax75 on August 07, 2014, 05:26:01 PM
KTM Focused Event KTM RC8 1/2
https://www.youtube.com/v/WaD259Iv1M4
There is a few more from this series. Cadwell Park, Silverstone, Brands Hatch.
Crikey! My Dad raced competitively against Dave Heal and Francis Williamson when they were all little boys with dummys in their mouths..they must be in their 80's by now!
grT ;)
gotta love jack burnicle!!! ;D 8)
As an aside I tried my steering wheel and pedals earlier and pleasantly surprised to report with Rodney's and Camillo's physics version for the RC8 it works perfectly with direct lean on. Lovely to ride, smooth, progressive and a natural and intuitive feel to it..
Very impressive and I have to say great control with this physics model both with a joypad with direct lean off and with a steering wheel/pedals with direct lean on.
I am a happy bunny! Nice mod.
grT :)
Quote from: camillozockt on August 07, 2014, 03:40:40 PM
i always have this feeling that things like this are staged but anyway , the bike would still win i think :)
Same level of technology, a car beats a bike hands down.
Just fetch f1 and motogp lap times on a common track.
MaX.
downforce is king..
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on August 07, 2014, 08:24:26 PM
downforce is king..
Right, downforce and a lot more tire contact patch surface to hang to.
MaX.
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on August 07, 2014, 08:24:26 PM
downforce is king..
Motorcycle racers are sexier though..!
Alain Prost or Barry Sheene? No contest boys! Sorry Alain.. ;D
Anyway it's not how fast you go but how much fun you have doing it..
grT
P.S. sorry I've been drinking..
Quote from: girlracerTracey on August 07, 2014, 08:35:53 PM
P.S. sorry I've been drinking..
(http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/ce/ce0fea900cf3bcccacc04d90b67849ed94d7a2551fc060b588503027cdd6d046.jpg)
would you guys like me to open a off topic thread for you? :-*
Ok, to put revision 1.3 in to the next Bike MOD update on the 14th? :)
*EDIT* Duh, the bike mod mega file... Sorry.
Hi;The update is in working!??She's miss me in beta6.... ::)
i'm bursting to ride this!!
can we getta new updated physics link?
I don't think the original author is still working on the bike. Could PM him and ask though. ;)
He doesn't seem to have been online in a while :-\
18th of August last year according to his profile :(
you can do what you want !
update it yourself
anyone working on it for beta6c?
Why working for B6c?
B7 is nearby ;)
Useless to double the work...... ;)
anyone know how to put the bodywork of this onto another bike to at least have the visuals?
No, but i see also no reason to do this.... ???
Quote from: C21 on May 25, 2015, 07:50:57 PM
No, but i see also no reason to do this.... ???
You can, you have to move the .edf files around (Used to do it before we could use multiple bikes in beta 4/5)
R1rossi, i've sent you a PM with instructions