PiBoSo Official Forum

General => Custom hardware => Topic started by: teeds on October 23, 2014, 10:53:08 AM

Title: Controller beginnings
Post by: teeds on October 23, 2014, 10:53:08 AM
With some old parts from my SRAD 750 I've made this and it seems to work pretty well after some tweaking. Got a mate sorting me some bearings and a mount for the steering assembly but for now I use this with my MS Sidewinder 2 joystick. I just need to make the pegs a bit more comfy for feet in socks.

(https://i.ibb.co/7VDhjqr/bikecontrols.jpg)
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: Hawk on October 23, 2014, 12:17:20 PM
Very nice! That's just the sort of set-up I had in mind for operating the gears and rear brake.

Great job mate!  ;D 8)

Hawk.
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: -aGy- on October 24, 2014, 05:18:14 AM
nice
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: teeds on November 01, 2014, 01:30:22 PM
My mate has finished the steering base, just got to make and fit the control mechanics then wire it up. It's a blatant copy of DDs rig and I thank him for saving me a load of time working out how best to mount the handle bars to the pivot.

The seat section has been thoroughly tested and has stood up well. Just got to work out what might be best to use for foam, rubber or other pliable stuff to give the rear brake a hydraulic brake feel, I'll be using the same thing for the front brake too.

(https://i.ibb.co/1mBbRfm/Steer-Assy1.jpg)
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: Hawk on November 01, 2014, 03:35:07 PM
Nice job mate!  ;D 8)

Hawk
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: BOBR6 84 on November 01, 2014, 03:52:45 PM
looking at that.. its screaming out "back ache" lol

good stuff though mate fair play to ya! why not try with a real bike frame/subframe? weld some support legs for it.. then bolt all the rearsets etc to it..
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: doubledragoncc on November 01, 2014, 04:54:22 PM
Quote from: teeds on November 01, 2014, 01:30:22 PM
My mate has finished the steering base, just got to make and fit the control mechanics then wire it up. It's a blatant copy of DDs rig and I thank him for saving me a load of time working out how best to mount the handle bars to the pivot.

The seat section has been thoroughly tested and has stood up well. Just got to work out what might be best to use for foam, rubber or other pliable stuff to give the rear brake a hydraulic brake fee, I'll be using the same thing for the front brake too.

(http://i57.tinypic.com/21l8qdi.jpg)

Glad I could help with the steering. I intend to patent it eventually but it costs a lot of money. Thanks for giving me the credit for design. If I can help in any way just ask. The main point is that you should use expansion springs for lever resistance and not compression springs, same for the steering to center it.

One negative in you bars is the height. It needs to be around 810mm at the ends of the bars to the ground and 820mm for the seat from top of the seat to the ground. Thats the basic measurements for GSXR and CBR bikes. The top of the foot pegs should be 440mm form the top of the seat and in the center of the seat horizontal line. These are just basic crotchrocket setup but will give you an idea of how to start the spacing. You can bring the bars closer to the seat for a more upright sitting position as it is less strain on your back over long periods of time riding. After an hour on one of my systems its quite a workout on your arms and back but in a good way lol.

Best of luck and fun in the build.

DD
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: Hawk on November 01, 2014, 05:08:41 PM
@DD: Be careful of releasing details of anything you intend to patent, I suggest you fully read and understand the rules of patenting an invention that you have already released the details to the open public.

I would hate for you to be discussing your invention here, and then you be denied a patent due to you already having released the details to the public without any thought of non-disclosure.

This is just a precaution.... I hope it helps mate.  ;)

Hawk.
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: doubledragoncc on November 01, 2014, 05:28:23 PM
@Hawk

Thanks for saying that hawk, but L have changed a lot and there is so much l never show. l do it for the passion of riding and my main point for it is to help everyone enjoy bike sims and games. I know the patent laws so the info l give is basic, but it still helps others. I realize many can not afford a real system and am working on a modular design with that in mind. At the end of the day l just want to help whoever l can, its not about money, its about the passion of riding.

Thank you for stepping up and saying that though. Its people like you that care for others here that makes this a great community. I think it was very good of teeds to give me the credit, he did not have to, but did, thats how we all should be here.

Keep it sunny side up guys and gals

DD
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: Hawk on November 01, 2014, 05:39:28 PM
Quote from: doubledragoncc on November 01, 2014, 05:28:23 PM
@Hawk

Thanks for saying that hawk, but L have changed a lot and there is so much l never show. l do it for the passion of riding and my main point for it is to help everyone enjoy bike sims and games. I know the patent laws so the info l give is basic, but it still helps others. I realize many can not afford a real system and am working on a modular design with that in mind. At the end of the day l just want to help whoever l can, its not about money, its about the passion of riding.

Thank you for stepping up and saying that though. Its people like you that care for others here that makes this a great community. I think it was very good of teeds to give me the credit, he did not have to, but did, thats how we all should be here.

Keep it sunny side up guys and gals

DD

Great attitude to life... Nice to hear that DD!  ;D 8)

Hawk.
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: teeds on November 03, 2014, 03:06:14 PM
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on November 01, 2014, 03:52:45 PM
looking at that.. its screaming out "back ache" lol

Fair comment BOB, I had originally gone for an exact dimension match of my GSXR but then realized it would be like riding in slow traffic all the time!  :-\ So I've gone for more of a Bandit type of riding position. Also those dimensions are no good for using this rig in front of your average desk and monitor setup so I've shrunk it's height all round and made the steering adjustable so you could use it on your knees and also standing upright. With that and the seat to handle bar adjustment it should allow anyone of any size to set it up as they wish.

@DD - Did you find the steering center spring was necessary? I was thinking of maybe just putting on an adjustable steering damper for some resistance.
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: doubledragoncc on November 05, 2014, 12:08:55 AM
The steering needs 2 springs to center it for the potentiometer and it gives a bit of resistance too. use 2 extension springs is best.

DD
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: teeds on November 07, 2014, 11:57:04 AM
OK ta, I will test centering with bungees when it's up and running, which should be this weekend hopefully.

So when will we see the rig in your videos in the shops then DD?  :)
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: doubledragoncc on November 07, 2014, 03:30:52 PM
Bungees wont do it right teeds. Has to be springs you can get from a good hardware store cheap.

I just got back to UK so am just setting up a new company. It will take a bit but should be in the new year. I am also talking to Leo Bodnar about working together so keeping my fingers crossed something good happens soon.

I have totally redesigned most of my systems for 3D printing to lower cost and make it lighter for shipping.

Best of luck for the weekend m8.

DD
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: teeds on November 10, 2014, 11:11:53 AM
Well it's not finished, but it's in use and so much damn fun that further improvements will be tricky lol


(http://i58.tinypic.com/n674ol.jpg)

A video of my mate riding around Assen, sorry about the crap footage.

https://www.youtube.com/v/zdIgecNPASM

Managed to tear myself away for a little while and add some basic buttons.

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2cdz806.jpg)
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: doubledragoncc on November 10, 2014, 12:52:54 PM
Great work Teeds. Bet you cant believe how it feels with the steering from that pivot point. It is so ggod to see someone do it the right way and enjoy it.

Keep up the great work.

DD
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: teeds on November 15, 2014, 08:30:56 PM
Yea it works a treat DD, got some thumb buttons now to try MXbikes and wow! It makes a massive difference controlling the bike..


Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: doubledragoncc on November 16, 2014, 03:01:18 PM
Hi teeds. Good to see your having fum m8.

I notice in the video that your steering is off, between the handlebar controls and the bike on screen it looks like there is a lag from the input to the bike on screen. What is your steering input devise? ie is it a potentiometer, if so is it with gearing? What are you using to connect you system to the computer? In GPBikes Alpha 7 there was a lag in control input if you were not using direct steer. Try playing with settings for the controller. Let me know the basics and I think I can help you get a faster and more precise setup. Keep up the great work m8.

DD
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: BOBR6 84 on November 16, 2014, 04:22:56 PM
yeah apart from the slight lag.. that looks really great for mxbikes!! make me one lol  ;D 8)
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: HornetMaX on November 16, 2014, 05:06:39 PM
The output of the controller (which is an input for GPB) dictates the lean angle, so it's not at all equal to the steering angle.
If you want the controller's bar to be (almost) the same as the virtual bar, you need to use direct steer angle.

MaX.
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: teeds on November 17, 2014, 01:01:42 PM
The lag you see is the game physics as Max said, it feels absolutely fine while playing. I think the lag looks worse because you can see exactly were i'm steering while playing unlike with say an Xbox 360 controller. I have direct lean on but have not tried DS yet, but with only steer and no lean I don't think i'll like it. The controller is working perfectly when tested in the mxb menu or windows and btw i'm using hall effect sensors all round, no gearing used although you could if needed, they're very easy to calibrate and hopefully will not wear out eva  :) I did'nt try to get the sensitivity the same on each axis as there doesn't seem to be the need, 200+ points seems fine and the steering has the most at about 1000.
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: teeds on November 17, 2014, 04:37:47 PM
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on November 16, 2014, 04:22:56 PM
make me one lol  ;D 8)

Coming to all good retailers near you soon, right DD?  ;)
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: doubledragoncc on November 18, 2014, 12:51:26 AM
How is it in GPBikes?

Believe me the difference with gearing for the steering makes it so much quicker and more precise.

Glad your enjoying it bro

DD
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: BOBR6 84 on November 19, 2014, 01:57:14 AM
Somebody mentioned on another forum about xbox controllers..

If there was lets say a racing version that had stiff triggers.. Progressive feel so to squeeze fully in means probably a lock up on the brakes.. (i know we have that modulation in gpbikes already) but the triggers are to easy (light) for me personally.. Maybe some vibration in and around the triggers to to give feel of chatter or bottomed out suspension on the brakes etc.

How easy or hard would this be to modify myself? Any ideas of parts, springs or anything?

For me personally that would be perfect!
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: BOBR6 84 on November 19, 2014, 02:16:14 AM
Be amazing if one day, brake fade could be simulated, through a stiff trigger on a game pad or a brake lever on a design like the ones in this thread..
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: HornetMaX on November 19, 2014, 07:57:04 AM
@BOBR6:
Stiff triggers is easy, just a matter of finding the right spring:
https://www.youtube.com/v/OL_9_p-QCZM

Progressive feel: theoretically one could have a non-linear spring, but it may be hard to find one and, anyway, the effect on such a litle displacement may be limited. I don't think you could feel the difference. Likely you only want a stiffer spring.

Brake fade: there are two things in brake fade, a reduction of braking power (for the same force applied to the lever) and a "spongy feeling".
The reduction in brake power can be simulated in GPB: for that, as discussed, Piboso should develop the simulation of the thermal dynamics of the brakes.
But the "spongy feeling" is impossible to reproduce, on a joypad and on any other controller one may invent.

MaX.
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: BOBR6 84 on November 19, 2014, 08:23:29 AM
putting stiffer springs in never crossed my mind lol!! Thats great, i will do just that!

so nothing could be made electronicly so that you feel the bite of the brakes or something along those lines?

Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: HornetMaX on November 19, 2014, 11:07:31 AM
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on November 19, 2014, 08:23:29 AM
putting stiffer springs in never crossed my mind lol!! Thats great, i will do just that!

so nothing could be made electronicly so that you feel the bite of the brakes or something along those lines?
One could potentially use a load cell. That's what some people use as brake pedal of steering wheels (e.g. g27): they replace the default spring+potentiometer with a load cell.
The difference is:
I don't know if one could fit a load cell into a pad and they also need some control electronics (Leo Bodnar has this kind of stuff in stock).

MaX.
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: Hawk on November 19, 2014, 11:48:39 AM
In my foot pedal controller(on the brake pedal) It has two powerful magnets, one fitted behind the foot pedal and one built into and behind the pedal but in the chassis. It gives a very good progressive brake pedal feel as the further you depress the brake the more resistance there is in the pedal lever as the magnets repel each other progressively more powerfully the closer they get to each other.  :)

Hawk
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: HornetMaX on November 19, 2014, 12:04:23 PM
Quote from: Hawk_UK on November 19, 2014, 11:48:39 AM
In my foot pedal controller(on the brake pedal) It has two powerful magnets, one fitted behind the foot pedal and one built into and behind the pedal but in the chassis. It gives a very good progressive brake pedal feel as the further you depress the brake the more resistance there is in the pedal lever as the magnets repel each other progressively more powerfully the closer they get to each other.  :)
But this is not how a racing hydraulic brake works. Ideally, once the brake pad(s) make contact with the disc(s), there should be no more pedal (or lever) movement at all: fluid is incompressible, hydraulic circuit does not deform under pressure (including the brake lines). You could put more force on the pedal and the pedal should not move (but the extra force you put on it should be translated to a larger input to the simulator).

Part of the "brake fading" one feels is because the brake fluid heats up too much and become compressible (more compressible than usual): in that case, you end up applying more force on the pedal (or lever), the pedal move more than usual, but the extra force is used to compress the fluid instead of generating pressure between pad(s) and disc(s). That's the spongy feeling: the pedal/lever moves, but the resulting braking force is the same. You can't have this on a controller: neither with a spring + potentiometer (or magnetic spring + optical encoder or whatever), nor with a load cell.

The load cell is however closer to reality as the pedal will not move when you apply more force, which is a good "simulation" of the non-fading situations.

So, bottom line: what's easily doable is a brake that "brakes less" when it's too hot (Piboso could do that). Beyond that, you could improve the feeling using a load cell (on a handlebar-style controller, on a pad it may not make a lot of sense). Sponginess: you need a real hydraulic system for that (or something utterly complicated to emulate it) :)

MaX.
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: doubledragoncc on November 19, 2014, 03:26:42 PM
Hi guys

Load cells are the only way to correctly SEND a signal to the sim, but they have limitations. Firstly they are big an actual size so no way to do it for a game pad, sorry. Secondly as said before they need a load cell accelorator to give the right amount of output to the controlling processor of the device you are conecting to the computer. Leo Bodnar has these for his BU boards and work great and easy to use. Thirdly, load cells are expensive compared to other kinds of sensors.

If you want to use springs for pressure feel, you can have a shorter STRONGER spring with a smaller diameter but longer lenth spring inside it that is not as strong to get 2 different brake pressure feelings, or 3 spings if you want 3 different amounts of pressure, or if you have enough space, one spring infront of the othe will give the same effect.

I am trying to come up with a real hydaulic system for high end controls. This will be expencive but if someone wants one it will be available.

Love this thread. Keep all the ideas coming its great to read how people think.

DD
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: teeds on January 02, 2015, 03:39:27 PM
So, found that when riding using my rig in MXB I was pulling and pushing on the handle bars as you do irl to control pitch. Also my stand has some flex which gave a tactile sensation like something should be happening. Additionally to reduce bulk and to ease transportation I wanted a desk mount too. Combining these two aspects I have made this -

(https://i.ibb.co/Bntfs1d/Desk-Mount.jpg)

(https://i.ibb.co/hZSS41z/Desk-Mount-Bars.jpg)



I now have a desk clamp that seems to fit most desks and it pivots so I can use the handle bars moving back and forth as lean forward and back in game. Still messing with springs and need to put in some adjustable stops but it works fine.

Oh and happy new year all!  :D
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: h106frp on January 04, 2015, 02:14:01 PM
Quote from: doubledragoncc on November 19, 2014, 03:26:42 PM
Hi guys

Load cells are the only way to correctly SEND a signal to the sim, but they have limitations. Firstly they are big an actual size so no way to do it for a game pad, sorry. Secondly as said before they need a load cell accelorator to give the right amount of output to the controlling processor of the device you are conecting to the computer. Leo Bodnar has these for his BU boards and work great and easy to use. Thirdly, load cells are expensive compared to other kinds of sensors.

If you want to use springs for pressure feel, you can have a shorter STRONGER spring with a smaller diameter but longer lenth spring inside it that is not as strong to get 2 different brake pressure feelings, or 3 spings if you want 3 different amounts of pressure, or if you have enough space, one spring infront of the othe will give the same effect.

I am trying to come up with a real hydaulic system for high end controls. This will be expencive but if someone wants one it will be available.

Love this thread. Keep all the ideas coming its great to read how people think.

DD

Been wondering if i could use a compact pneumatic cylinder (or even possibly a large syringe) for front brake feel with the brake cable pulling against the cylinder with the inlet blocked off. This would give a 'soft' initial travel and then harden up as the vacuum in the end of the cylinder increases much like normal lever travel. 40mm dia/5 or 10mm stroke cyclinders seem quite cheap and i am guessing i need a largish piston area. I know air is compressible (squidgy lever if the vauum is insufficient) but i think this might be 'better' than mechanical springs.

Anyone tried anything similar and know whether it might work or suitable sizing for the cylinder? would like to avoid hydraulics as its messy and the initial pedal travel bit seems complex to get right.
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: doubledragoncc on January 04, 2015, 04:44:53 PM
HI Guys.

@teeds, great work m8, looks VERY robust to say the least. How do you like my SPSS steering setup? It is great to see people using it and get some feedback as to the riding feeling they get using it. I am refining a few points on the concept to make it more compact. New designs going great and will  show some pics soon. One thing I learnt over the years is you dont need to use 1inch tube, 1/2inch and 3/4inch work just as good in many areas and are far lighter. Its surprising how much force it takes to bend 3mm steel plate too. It would help if you want to take it about.

@ "H" Hope its okay to shorten your name. I am working on a full hydraulic system as its cheap to buy real levers with all for £10 on ebay new. I have a lot to do to test but think its the way to go. I have not tried a syringe though, but is a new idea and worth trying in its concept. Try putting a spring inside the syringe to adjust pressure!!! Just thought of that. I think a 1inch (25.4mm) diameter might show good starting pressure but 2 inch would be better if you look at a brake caliper piston size it about right. You could try different fluids in the syringe too, even washing up liquid, just some ideas as I write this.

I am still working on my new business plan and have to be done by the 12th Jan and then with luck I can get the new 3D printer so I can really start on some of the designs I have to reduce cost for everyone to have real bike controllers. It will also make it possible to produce parts that would normally not be possible.

Keep up the great work.

DD

Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: HornetMaX on January 04, 2015, 07:20:54 PM
Quote from: h106frp on January 04, 2015, 02:14:01 PM
Been wondering if i could use a compact pneumatic cylinder (or even possibly a large syringe) for front brake feel with the brake cable pulling against the cylinder with the inlet blocked off. This would give a 'soft' initial travel and then harden up as the vacuum in the end of the cylinder increases much like normal lever travel. 40mm dia/5 or 10mm stroke cyclinders seem quite cheap and i am guessing i need a largish piston area. I know air is compressible (squidgy lever if the vauum is insufficient) but i think this might be 'better' than mechanical springs.
I don't think that feeling of a pneumatic system will be any closer than a normal spring. A pneumatic system is a spring, just a non-linear one. Load cell for the win. But to be honest, just having a lever with a sufficiently hard spring would be such a leap from a pad trigger that it may be well enough.

One thing you could try is to have a longer and softer spring with inside a shorter and much stiffer one: this way the first part of the lever movement would be easy, until the harder spring kicks in.

MaX.
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: h106frp on January 04, 2015, 08:26:12 PM
Yep, thinking it through a bit more you do need to derive force rather than any measure of displacement, otherwise once you reach the 'firm' area toward the end of the small lever travel you will struggle to sense (electrically) that 'extra' input as you load the lever up - suppose a log potentiometer might be one dodge to raise the output towards the end of the travel but would probably be fiddly to set up right. Definitely, the linear 'trigger' type response of a normal joystick is all wrong.

Time to look for a cheap pressure transducer.

edit..
This looks quite neat using a simple beam 'load cell' from a cheap set of bathroom scales
http://www.xsimulator.net/community/threads/diy-load-cell-brake-pedal-short-tuto.6042/ (http://www.xsimulator.net/community/threads/diy-load-cell-brake-pedal-short-tuto.6042/)

Decided i will probably go the hydraulic root though seem to get the thumbs up from the car sim community..... if cheap levers from china turn out to be any good ::) look the part in the pictures wonder what they will be like in reality though.
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: doubledragoncc on January 05, 2015, 12:01:43 PM
Hi H, you can get the cheap Chinese brake/clutch hydraulic sets here in UK for £10!!! they will do the job bro can find loads on Ebay

DD
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: HornetMaX on January 05, 2015, 12:37:50 PM
In the page linked by h106frp there was also this link: http://www.varjanta.com/forum/hydraulic-brake-pedal-handmade-t1808.html (http://www.varjanta.com/forum/hydraulic-brake-pedal-handmade-t1808.html)

The installation of the load cell is ridiculously simple, just sandwiched between two teflon plates, right behind the foot pedal.

At that stage, one could put directly the load cell (and it's teflon sandwich) right between the real brake pads (fixed to one of the pads) ...

Quote from: doubledragoncc on January 05, 2015, 12:01:43 PM
Hi H, you can get the cheap Chinese brake/clutch hydraulic sets here in UK for £10!!! they will do the job bro can find loads on Ebay

Any example ?

MaX.
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: teeds on January 05, 2015, 02:23:25 PM
Quote from: doubledragoncc on January 04, 2015, 04:44:53 PM
looks VERY robust to say the least. How do you like my SPSS steering setup?

Yea fair comment DD lol, but had some bits bend on me when testing the spring load so had to large it up a bit. Just have to be careful not to tip my desk over now lol. I was also a bit suspect of the results of the F/B lean function but now I've used it a bit in MXB it's freaking awesome and I'd be gutted to loose it.
Yes the pivot setup of yours is saweet DD, i'd liken the change using it in MXB and GPB to the change I got when going from joystick or controller to a wheel in driving games. It just makes so much more sense and the sim just feels more real, especially when combined with the throttle and levered brakes etc. The steering also allows me to be much more precise due to the throw of it, which is something like 9" each side, so instantly things kind of got easier for me. Couple of mates of mine have seen what i'm using and want one...
I know i'm suckered into a game when I start sticking my real legs out in sharp turns to save a fall because my brain is momentarily convinced it's real lol  ;)



These hydraulic brakes systems seem like a great idea and should feel just right but I've never fancied the thought of it leaking onto my carpet, ways around that though I suppose.

Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: doubledragoncc on January 05, 2015, 04:16:12 PM
Heres a pic of the set for £32.59 from the link below

(http://iasystems.tk/pics/32.59.JPG)

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/7-8-22mm-Motorcycle-Handlebar-Hydraulic-Brake-Master-Cylinder-Clutch-Lever-/271411164955?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts_13&hash=item3f315db71b (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/7-8-22mm-Motorcycle-Handlebar-Hydraulic-Brake-Master-Cylinder-Clutch-Lever-/271411164955?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts_13&hash=item3f315db71b)

For a sim rig and not a real bike its a frickin steal and dont forget, DOT brake fluid wont damage paint but not sure if the seals on the system are okay for DOT5 but its not getting hot as its not on a real bike so DOT5 is okay I think. Used it on all my custom bikes I built and with a $10,000 paint job you dont F*** around. You dont ned a caliper just a pressure sensor ala G27 brake conversion. Looking into it too.

DD
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: h106frp on January 05, 2015, 07:35:23 PM
I have gone for the copy Brembo GP 'look alikes' at £25 for the pair - could not resist the styling  8)- see what they are like when (if) they turn up, pretty sure that although listed as UK they will be from China.

Just a note, for the 'bathscale loadcell' you only really need 1 cell not 2 as suggested by the author so keeps the cost down, the second half of the Whetstone bridge circuit can be constructed from a pair of matched resistors. The output per unit force is halved, but we will be inputting high levels of force anyway so it wont matter. Any resistor values will do, higher resistance will draw less current and any value from 120 to 10 kohm is fine. You can either match the values by hand, trim a low value higher by nicking the metal film with a small file or put a high value trimmer resistor (maybe 500k to 1Mohm) in parallel with the larger of the 2 resistors and adjust to get the value you want.
You can also play with the 2 resistor values to offset the output to make it more suitable for a microprocessor input i.e. zero force = 2.5volts out from the amplifier. The bridge output is just the differential voltage formed by the output from the 2 potential dividers,1 half is the strain gauges, the other the resistor pair.

This circuit should interface directly to the Leo Bodnar load cell input or a home made amplifier to an existing joystick input.

Just found someone down the road from me offering the bathroom scale sensor as a standalone item for under a tenner;
http://www.technobotsonline.com/load-sensor-50kg.html (http://www.technobotsonline.com/load-sensor-50kg.html)

also the force sensitive resistors used in HornetMax link
http://www.technobotsonline.com/sensors/flex-force-en.html (http://www.technobotsonline.com/sensors/flex-force-en.html)
I have seen it mentioned that these film sensors suffer a little with being very non-linear in resistance change with applied force


Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: h106frp on January 11, 2015, 01:12:03 PM
(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NjAwWDYwMA==/z/L2YAAOSwVFlT~E2m/$_12.JPG)

Came quite quick so must be from UK stock, look the part and seem OK for controller use less than £25 shipped for the pair :D. Make the cable operated minimoto set i was going to use look a bit sad now.

Seems that ideally they need to drive a small cylinder to get the best lever response, initial travel, piston travel then braking load. This is the way the driving simmers have tackled the problem. The wilwood pull clutch cylinders they use are over £70 each though so thinking of modifying and old british leyland land rover type clutch slave (seems easiest) cylinder or single piston brake slave (mini front) as these are less than £10 each.

Either a pressure transducer or one of the load sensors linked earlier for the force signal. Think this is going to be a long term project.. :D Even the simple bits like the throttle need a bit of though to get right so i'm expecting the brake/clutch to take a bit of trial and error to get working.

Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: teeds on January 11, 2015, 05:52:30 PM
For the money they look very good. Are you thinking of using a pressure sensor for the clutch?
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: h106frp on January 11, 2015, 06:07:06 PM
Yes, same for both but just sprung travel against the load piston for the clutch, the brake will need a very short spring travel then a stop to load up the lever.

That the plan anyway :)
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: Masterofdesaster on January 12, 2015, 07:25:01 AM
Great work Teeds.





samsung galaxy A5 tasche (http://www.hulle6.com/category-samsung-galaxy-a5-zubehoer-158.html)
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: doubledragoncc on January 12, 2015, 03:51:09 PM
Hi "H" can you give the link for the lever set please. Thats a dang good price. My problem is I cant use used parts and need to ensure all parts are good quality and supply is good too. The hydraulic way is better than using cables but more expensive so it will be offered as an option.

This thread is getting good.

DD
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: h106frp on January 12, 2015, 05:29:37 PM
These ones;
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pair-7-8-Motorcycle-BIKE-Brake-Lever-Clutch-Master-Cylinder-Reservoir-Hydraulic-/400763208879?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts_13&hash=item5d4f5944af (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pair-7-8-Motorcycle-BIKE-Brake-Lever-Clutch-Master-Cylinder-Reservoir-Hydraulic-/400763208879?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts_13&hash=item5d4f5944af)

Hoses are the thing that seem to be difficult to find cheap, just have to keep checking and see if any bargains come up. Have discovered than land rover 300tdi clutch slaves are metric and that bearmach cast iron are the ones to go for around £10 ea.

Managed to get a friend to agree to machine my 'special' steering spindle for me so might start to make a bit of progress with the assembly soon :) Want to get basic steer with handlebar controls all working first though before starting on the clever bits like torque steer and feedback.
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: doubledragoncc on January 13, 2015, 01:49:14 PM
Thanks H. I found them before but forgot it lmao. Im old.

I am thinking to try with no caliper and just a pressure sensor to save on components needed and weight for shipping. I have to think of these things bugger lol. I think trying different fluids might bring surprise results as you dont need to think about heat. It depends on the brake systems seals. DOT 5 is best as it will not damage paint etc if spilled in the home.

I want to make a system that uses as little amount of components as possible so am trying all sorts of weird and wonderful shit out lol.

It reminds me of when I was a kid watching Blue Peter and how they made so much out of washing up bottles and a sponge lol. God Im old!!!!

DD
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: h106frp on January 13, 2015, 03:21:20 PM
I think without a load piston and the controlled deflection it allows it will be difficult to reliably avoid the system being 'locked' with no lever movement at all as all fluids are incompressible. You could possible add a very small accumulator device to allow some controlled lever movement. This is a link to a commercial device that  might give some inspiration for a home made contraption. You are just trying to compress a fixed small amount of gas a bit like a controlled situation of needing the system bleeding, a bit spongy before the pressure builds up.
http://www.hawe.de/en/products/product/product/ac-mini-accumulators/ (http://www.hawe.de/en/products/product/product/ac-mini-accumulators/)

The other problem is loosing the option to use a load cell, the only cheap pressure transducers i have seen (<£20 for up to 100 bar) are direct from china, the low pressure car ones (0 to 30 psi) will not be much use and they are still £30+. Slave cylinder+load cell is around the same price of £20 so its only the cost of the brake line that a deal breaker.
I do have a pressure transducers available to me (20, 60 or 100 bar) but i think i will try the load cell first as its easier for everyone to obtain.

Otherwise if might be easier to 'fake it' and modify a proper hydraulic lever set to work with a cable lever / spring / budget 'bath scale' load cell setup. You would have the looks of real bike parts and the simplicity of mechanical components.

Full hydraulic is arguably overkill compared with cable and load sensor - but enjoying the challenge of building a one one off special for myself :)
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: doubledragoncc on January 13, 2015, 03:57:35 PM
Yeah gotta agree with you. I just know there must be a way to get the right feeling with the right data output some way or another, but thats what this is about, making something that dont exist is so much fun and challenging that when you find the solution it feels 10 times better than getting it off the shelf at a high price. I will stick to washing up bottles and duck tape method lol.

DD
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: HornetMaX on January 13, 2015, 04:01:26 PM
Quote from: h106frp on January 13, 2015, 03:21:20 PM
I think without a load piston and the controlled deflection it allows it will be difficult to reliably avoid the system being 'locked' with no lever movement at all as all fluids are incompressible.
But that's what happens on a real (race) brake system: once the brake pads touch the disk, the brake lever moves no more.
The only movements that are left are due to fluid compression (tiny at usual temps, but gets important if the fluid "boils") and mechanical deformations (lever, pipes, joints, calipers).

The lever should have itself an initial "free" displacement, after that it will lock:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Hydraulic_disc_brake_diagram.gif)

Maybe it's enough, meaning you just need to "put a cork after the lever" and fill the circuit with fluid (i.e no need for calipers, pads and discs).
You'd still need to find a place for the pressure sensor, of course.

I'd tend to agree that a proper lever with a cable acting on a load cell could be enough. I even think that just a cable a spring (sufficiently stiff one) would make such a big difference that going beyond that may be unnecessary ...

MaX.
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: teeds on January 13, 2015, 05:38:53 PM
If you're not expecting any movement from a fluid based system once it's engaged then it seems bit overly complicated using hydraulics? I was thinking for simplicity and compactness couldn't you rig up a mechanical equivalent using a load cell and some rubber actually within the fluid reservoir? I was thinking you could drill and insert a pivot in the ally reservoir and have a lever going from the push rod to a load cell/rubber/spring assembly on the other end. Would need to be the same as pictured below and not the remote reservoir type but should be as easy as rigging up a complete system if not easier, neat and compact too and no fluids. Hmm...  :)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/2dbw1t2.jpg)

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/7-8-Handlebar-Motorcycle-Universal-Hydraulic-Brake-Master-Cylinder-Lever-Chrome-/181617195237?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts_13&hash=item2a493a78e5  (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/7-8-Handlebar-Motorcycle-Universal-Hydraulic-Brake-Master-Cylinder-Lever-Chrome-/181617195237?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts_13&hash=item2a493a78e5)
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: HornetMaX on January 13, 2015, 06:00:40 PM
Quote from: teeds on January 13, 2015, 05:38:53 PM
I was thinking for simplicity and compactness couldn't you rig up a mechanical equivalent using a load cell and some rubber actually within the fluid reservoir? I was thinking you could drill and insert a pivot in the ally reservoir and have a lever going from the push rod to a load cell/rubber/spring assembly on the other end. Would need to be the same as pictured below and not the remote reservoir type but should be as easy as rigging up a complete system if not easier, neat and compact too and no fluids. Hmm...  :)
You could probably just stick a load cell where a classical (non radial) lever pushes the cylinder, no ?

MaX.
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: doubledragoncc on January 13, 2015, 07:59:34 PM
All you need is to have a pressure sensor that could bolt into the master cylinder directly, BUT there would be no space for fluid to move and it would be like the brake is on all the time, the lever would be nearly solid. You would need something for the fluid to press against until it stopped. Dont forget the brake pads only move 2mm to 5mm then hit the disk.......solid lever. Love the lil ol diagram Max. All we need is to have a small unit that bolts between the master cylinder and the sensor, that will move a small amount= initial braking and then block= actual full braking and putting full pressure on the sensor.  This would mean few components and real feel, it will take a bit of playing around to get right but it should work.

Teeds that switch on the master cylinder(universal Harley I custom built them 25 years) its just the brake switch and no use. its digital not analog.

DD
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: h106frp on January 13, 2015, 08:30:43 PM
Cheapest analogue pressure transducers i have found are these from china
(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NDg1WDY1MA==/z/JUUAAOSwo8hToTjk/$_12.JPG)

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/100psi-Pressure-Transducer-or-Sender-for-Oil-Fuel-Diesel-Gas-Air-Water-Pressure-/170980134449?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item27cf35ce31 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/100psi-Pressure-Transducer-or-Sender-for-Oil-Fuel-Diesel-Gas-Air-Water-Pressure-/170980134449?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item27cf35ce31)

Offered in a range of maximum pressures to suit as we do not want the output to clip, could be connected directly to master cylinder output if used as suggested below....

It has an integrated amplifier and the output is ideal for interfacing directly to USB (0-5 volts) so that bits easy.

If you could put a stop block the right length to get your desired lever stroke in the end of the master cylinder without blocking the outlet port or damaging the seals, this combined with a correctly selected rate (stronger) master cylinder return spring might complete the simulated circuit without the need for remote cylinders :).
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: HornetMaX on January 13, 2015, 08:34:31 PM
Quote from: h106frp on January 13, 2015, 08:30:43 PM
If you could put a stop block the right length to get your desired lever stroke in the end of the master cylinder without blocking the outlet port or damaging the seals, this combined with a correctly selected rate (stronger) master cylinder return spring might complete the simulated circuit without the need for remote cylinders :).
Not sure I understand.

If you bolt that sensor right on the master cylinder, the stroke will be very short: as soon as the outlet port is blocked, the whole thing locks.
Also, why would you need a stronger spring ?

MaX.
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: h106frp on January 13, 2015, 08:48:04 PM
Thinking that while the piston crosses the fluid inlet port the only lever pressure is the spring, if you were to use as is or 'open up' the port to suit, the width of the port would give you you the no pressure travel range before it hit the stop block and loaded the lever. Needs a brave soul with a scrap cylinder/drill/steady hand :D to experiment

As i understand, the initial travel of a normal lever is 3 stage, crossing the inlet port gives master cylinder spring load only, then the resistance of the slave piston travel in the caliper (fraction of mm) then the pressure load as the pad force is increased.

....Actually you might not need the stop at all as hydraulic pressure after the port closes is enough, just uprate the spring to feel more like the second step of caliper piston movement
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: HornetMaX on January 13, 2015, 08:54:33 PM
Quote from: h106frp on January 13, 2015, 08:48:04 PM
Thinking that while the piston crosses the fluid inlet port the only lever pressure is the spring, if you were to use as is or 'open up' the port to suit, the width of the port would give you you the no pressure travel range before it hit the stop block and loaded the lever. Needs a brave soul with a scrap cylinder/drill/steady hand :D to experiment
I'd think the stock spring may just be enough.

Quote from: h106frp on January 13, 2015, 08:48:04 PM
As i understand, the initial travel of a normal lever is 3 stage, crossing the inlet port gives master cylinder spring load only, then the resistance of the slave piston travel in the caliper (fraction of mm) then the pressure load as the pad force is increased.
Yep, right. But absence of phase 2 shouldn't be a big deal (unless the stroke is really too short).

MaX.
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: h106frp on January 13, 2015, 09:29:18 PM
Typical, just shows how these discussions contribute to a bit of lateral thinking... just ordered my slave cylinders for the car sim approach  ::)

Quick 'in my head calc' for the lever unit i bought suggests that the pressure for 20kg force at the lever (totally guessing for very heavy braking) and 5:1 lever ratio would be around 300psi out from the master cylinder, so the 500psi sensor unit might be a reasonable start point.

Need some ideas of how 'wide' the typical master cylinder inlet port is and possible methods for making it longer in front of the piston, drill/file/dremel etc.

Could be quite a graceful approach to the problem though.
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: teeds on January 13, 2015, 10:01:32 PM
Quote from: HornetMaX on January 13, 2015, 06:00:40 PM
You could probably just stick a load cell where a classical (non radial) lever pushes the cylinder, no ?

Yea if there's enough room for the initial travel, spring and sensor etc. Also maybe the plunger could be extended to protrude beyond the banjo bolt hole, mounting the sensor where the banjo would normally sit. I need to have a rummage in my garage see if I have a front brake lying around to play with.

Quote from: doubledragoncc on January 13, 2015, 07:59:34 PM
Teeds that switch on the master cylinder(universal Harley I custom built them 25 years) its just the brake switch and no use. its digital not analog.

Umm yea thanks for that DD  ::)  lmao   ;)
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: doubledragoncc on January 13, 2015, 11:30:31 PM
Hey teeds I had to take the pee one time lol.

Another great link H. I think we spend far to much of our lives searching for dang parts and no time left to ride lol.

DD
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: teeds on April 06, 2015, 10:54:49 AM
pov footage of my rig in action with mxbikes  :)

Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: davidboda46 on April 06, 2015, 12:25:00 PM
Very cool man. Great job!

Cheers,

/David "Gonzo" Boda #46
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: Napalm Nick on April 06, 2015, 12:30:28 PM
Yay! Sweet.

Get it on Amazon man.  ;)
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: doubledragoncc on April 06, 2015, 03:08:08 PM
Great job teeds. Good to see that people have realized my SPSS design for steering really works. All the non believers are finally being shown the truth lol.

Like your additional movement of the bars, how does it feel to move up and down, is it sprung loaded to help or just pivoting?

DD
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: teeds on April 07, 2015, 11:17:02 AM
Quote from: doubledragoncc on April 06, 2015, 03:08:08 PM
Like your additional movement of the bars, how does it feel to move up and down, is it sprung loaded to help or just pivoting?

Cheers. The front back movement was born from me pushing and pulling instinctively on the bars and then realising I had to push a button. It feels very natural to use and yes is sprung loaded to sit roughly central and offer resistance. Had to reduce the spring load though as at first it was knackering me out after about 10mins, now it's fine although I'm sure is still good for core strength ;)
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: doubledragoncc on April 07, 2015, 01:29:48 PM
Yeah people dont realize how strong springs are and the effect after a period of time. I must have bought over 1000 different springs in the last years testing for feel and duration of different controls, its not cheap getting it right lol

DD
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: Hawk on April 12, 2015, 01:25:43 AM
Hi DD.

I noticed you have what I call High-Bars for handlebars on your current version..... Are you planning to do a version with Road Race Clip-on handlebars? For road race enthusiasts I think this would be better preferred.  ;)

Hawk.
Title: Re: Controller beginnings
Post by: doubledragoncc on April 12, 2015, 09:44:06 AM
Hi H,I dont have high bars, I do a motoX option but I use bars that the position is like clip-ons, actual clip-ons will cost more but could be an option. it means changing design though. You will see soon.

DD