because the forum is about reality everything here, it should also go to the realistic servers.
I would suggest that you disable for championships and other driving aids run any server.
the to reality
greeting fin
Quote from: finpower on December 08, 2014, 12:01:20 PM
because the forum is about reality everything here, it should also go to the realistic servers.
I would suggest that you disable for championships and other driving aids run any server.
the to reality
greeting fin
What do you consider driving aids? Would you go as far as cockpit view and manual rider only in all servers too? You have to bear in mind that 99% of all riders ride in 3rd person view and use auto rider settings.
Personally I'd only advocate total no aids when a decent bike controller is available at a decent price. :)
One solution would be for you to start a server yourself with no aids allowed and run various championships and events to attract more riders, but I'll almost guarantee that you will not get many takers to begin with, but this may change in future if you persist.
Personally speaking, I think in the future there is one thing for certain.... Total hardcore riders will gain a greater respect for their riding and race winning than riders that ride and win with aids. Harcore would become the premiere Championship and non-hardcore would become like a beginners league for those wishing to gain the same standard and skills as the hardcore riders.
I can see this coming eventually, but for right now I don't think you'd get many takers. I just don't think it is quite the right time for this to happen yet. But it will come for sure, so don't give up mate! ;)
Hawk.
Be interesting to see a poll on favorite view, i always go straight to first person for anything that describes itself as a simulator. I do like helmet cam mode in gpb for a better track view than the more usual 'on-bike'.
Quote from: h106frp on December 08, 2014, 07:11:52 PM
Be interesting to see a poll on favorite view, i always go straight to first person for anything that describes itself as a simulator. I do like helmet cam mode in gpb for a better track view than the more usual 'on-bike'.
Have a look at MAXhud plugin. That gives you a helmet view
I started off with 1st person view.. Now I switch it up depending on my mood :P beta5 I used 3rd person because I didnt like the head position onboard.. Must admit I do like to see the whole bike in action with a nice paint jobby..
Count me in for some onboard racing though!
Quote from: Hawk_UK on December 08, 2014, 06:49:52 PMYou have to bear in mind that 99% of all riders ride in 3rd person view and use auto rider settings.
I'm not so sure about that: I've never played in 3rd person and I'm certainly not the only one! ;)
Quote from: EdouardB on December 15, 2014, 05:07:15 PM
Quote from: Hawk_UK on December 08, 2014, 06:49:52 PMYou have to bear in mind that 99% of all riders ride in 3rd person view and use auto rider settings.
I'm not so sure about that: I've never played in 3rd person and I'm certainly not the only one! ;)
Hi Edouard.
No your certainly not the only one..... I only know of about 5-6 people who proclaim to ride in first person view(and not all those ride with
no aids) and I only know of one of those that actually rides in real 1st person view(the one were the riders head moves when you make a corner) and also uses Direct Steer with Torque(DST) with no aids whatsoever and that is Klax75. Others have tried riding with DST but not succeeded.
Do you ride in real 1st person view, or normal 1st person view? Any aids or no aids? Auto rider or not?
Hawk.
Quote from: Hawk_UK on December 15, 2014, 06:44:45 PMDo you ride in real 1st person view, or normal 1st person view? Any aids or no aids? Auto rider or not?
I ride in real 1st Person View (head moving) because it feels more natural for me (the head pretty much has the same movement as I have in real life).
No aid, the only thing I have is Auto Rider (although I do wish I could make it semi manual to lean forward earlier in the straight to keep the wheelies down).
Quote from: EdouardB on December 17, 2014, 12:52:37 PM
Quote from: Hawk_UK on December 15, 2014, 06:44:45 PMDo you ride in real 1st person view, or normal 1st person view? Any aids or no aids? Auto rider or not?
I ride in real 1st Person View (head moving) because it feels more natural for me (the head pretty much has the same movement as I have in real life).
No aid, the only thing I have is Auto Rider (although I do wish I could make it semi manual to lean forward earlier in the straight to keep the wheelies down).
Yeah, I wish I could ride in real 1st person with manual rider but I use a joystick for control(feels very natural to me) but the problem is with a joystick is accessing all the buttons for other controls while moving the joystick. So I think I will wait till a proper motorcycle controller has arrived on market before again trying fully manual control with real 1st person view. I tried it once before, even bought an Xbox gamepad specially for it, but I just couldn't get that same feel I had with the joystick controller, so I reverted back to my joystick and 3rd person view.
But it would be great to have a real 1st person server online all the time just to have it there for practice. Even if it doesn't get used much. Also for someone to hold events for this class of riding would encourage people to take it up I think. :)
Semi-Auto Rider: I thought we could already have the rider controls set and used that override the autorider whenever we wanted now in Beta6c? Never tired it myself, but I believe it is there now to use. ;)
I tried the 3rd person view yesterday evening and I hate it :P It takes so much of the realism away in my opinion. You see way too many things in 3rd person compared to real life (where you really don't see much, especially in blind corners, because, you know... they're blind)
Friday or saturday night il open a basic server from the ''host world'' option..
Onboard only.. If anybody fancies a race or two?
I cant ride in 3rd person, well I can but it feels so wrong and I keep thinking of my ex girlfriend who used to ride in front of me (she was a proddy racer on an old Yam RD350LC back in the old days). The good old days lol.
DD
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on December 18, 2014, 02:17:35 AM
Friday or saturday night il open a basic server from the ''host world'' option..
Onboard only.. If anybody fancies a race or two?
I'll try on saturday, but not before 21:15 -21:30 GMT for me anyway, sry. (Work)
Saturday night, around 10-11pm is good for me.. Il set a room up, if nobody joins il just join another server ;)
Cool :)
I'm opening this topic up again please if you don't mind. ::)
I had intended to run my server in Onboard view only, thinking originally it wouldn't affect most people but it would keep the field level. Then I find out this could alienate 99% of riders! That really surprised me. I always thought having a Simulator and riding it in easier Arcade mode was odd! Each to their own of course.
So I would like to know if anyone is like-minded and would want a server that runs races onboard view only? Or are the 'realists' happy being backmarkers? Maybe there aren't enough players here yet to warrant it?
I have read a few like-minded comments here but just how big is the 1%?? Whatever please comment I am intrigued what to do. Ta!
I've only every used Helmet view. I wish more races had it, because a lot of people using 3rd person assume everyone is using it. Then will try to pass in some crazy spots, because they assume you can see them.
I wish Helmet view was more mandatory. :(
Quote from: Klax75 on April 13, 2015, 08:51:29 AM
I've only every used Helmet view. I wish more races had it, because a lot of people using 3rd person assume everyone is using it. Then will try to pass in some crazy spots, because they assume you can see them.
I wish Helmet view was more mandatory. :(
Thanks Klax I believe you are the 'real-ist' rider here so appreciate that. :)
I'm certainly not pushing for anything mandatory of course just offering one server that runs Helmet view only
I know there are other people that use Helmet view other then me. lol
I know a while back Stout Johnson started doing a race series called "Skeet" for cockpit view only races, and if I remember rightly he did get a reasonable amount of riders giving it a go(I even had a go myself). It definitely made me think about riding cockpit view more regular. So maybe the best thing would be to start holding events with cockpit view only to encourage riders to use it..... Okay at first the event may lack the numbers that open cockpit(3rd person view) has right now, but if continued over time I think more and more riders would start to move over to cockpit view?
Personally I have nothing against riding in cockpit view so long as others in the event are doing the same to level the playing field, so to speak.
This is why I admire Klax's determination so much, because he not only rides in cockpit view(helmet view), but also rides fully manual with DST! That is hard stuff to learn.... He definitely has my respect. ;) 8)
Hawk.
Quote from: Hawk UK on April 13, 2015, 09:11:03 AM
Personally I have nothing against riding in cockpit view so long as others in the event are doing the same to level the playing field, so to speak
Hawk.
Thanks Hawk that's my aim really and maybe a good idea to try. 8)
I've been with Stout trying to promote the helmet view for a long time,....... i gave up m8 :P.
Some people get sick, others just want to see the bike, others don't want to learn to ride again, others find it 'too difficult'.
There are some great onboard riders though.
3rd person view apart of being unrealistic has a huge advantage over onboard riders when racing.
We discovered, during onboard only races, that we had waay less kamikaze riders, good thing.
Quote from: Warlock on April 13, 2015, 01:39:46 PM
I've been with Stout trying to promote the helmet view for a long time,....... i gave up m8 :P.
Thanks Warlock, yep I have searched the forum so know I'm dragging up stuff already covered from founders like yourselves, but hopefully it is worth a review every now and again.
I use an analogue look left/right whilst 'onboard' - it works good, and overcomes a little of what is lost by not using 3rd person. In the absence of being able to use my TrackIR properly (also forum searched) its not so bad.
I really don't want to ride 3rdP so hopefully there's a gaggle of us for an onboard race every now and again? ;D
Sure, but we need some bug fixes first ;), i'll be there when we can have an online race without annoying bugs :P
We could already have amazing championships if you don't get a core.exe crash in the fist race lap, after a week of hard training >:(
In my race if someone gets a core we restart! I have never had a core in any race yet (um... all three of them). All the bugs are fixed.
Yes I'm trying to tempt you back with white lies and hope. :)
Quote from: Napalm Nick on April 13, 2015, 02:27:39 PM
In my race if someone gets a core we restart!
not possible without reseting the qualifing results. you can not reconnect on warmup/sightinglap/grid.
Quote from: JJS209 on April 13, 2015, 02:34:07 PM
not possible without reseting the qualifing results. you can not reconnect on warmup/sightinglap/grid.
Well, you can reconnect after a core in a race (if you do it quickly), seems the server thinks you still in the server after a core lol :P,.... annoying anyway.
Quote from: Napalm Nick on April 13, 2015, 02:27:39 PM
Yes I'm trying to tempt you back with white lies and hope. :)
lol ;D
Have you tried a serious race with... lets say... 10 riders? (no need to be a serious race though, even just for fun)
cores are a misterious thing, some days you don't get any, somedays you get 5 in a row depending of the server load and number of riders.
With the restart method, a serious thing easily become into a serious joke ;D, ... i've been there. Two restarts and its done, all the fun gone..... ask PeterV , he has a good background on these issues. He has done the best events i've participated in (even with 3rd view allowed).
I really miss them.....
Yeh good point JJ a race restart will nullify the quallie.
Interesting point to try if a player has a core - get back in quick!
Yes I have heard of Peters events I think they may be known world wide lol. Shame I was not here to enjoy them.
Well the 3 races I have been in had 15-24 in all three. But yes a couple had cores there, just not me :D ........yet.
Totally understand what you are saying though, I can imagine there's only so many times the fun can be drained before the enthusiasm is sapped. :-\
Quote from: Warlock on April 13, 2015, 02:10:29 PM
Sure, but we need some bug fixes first ;), i'll be there when we can have an online race without annoying bugs :P
We could already have amazing championships if you don't get a core.exe crash in the fist race lap, after a week of hard training >:(
This is a difficult one because I know some riders for some reason get a lot of core.exe crashes, while other riders like myself hardly ever suffer a core.exe crash. In fact out of all the races I've entered in my 3+ years I can honestly say that I've only ever core.exe crashed out of a race maybe 3 or four times.
I think if the right track and server/host is present to do the event this makes a massive difference, especially now that we have sorted a few tracks out to try and combat artefacts that do cause core.exe crashes. For me it is not bad at all, but I know and appreciate that is no consolation for those unfortunate to suffer from many core.exe crashes each time they ride online. I'm just one of the lucky few I guess?
Hawk.
I'd love to ride onboardraces again like Peters cold turkey events back in Beta4. those were the best
Only onboard view and some real nice battles with serveral top riders
bring those races back!! ;D
Quote from: kerazxo on April 13, 2015, 04:27:08 PM
I'd love to ride onboardraces again like Peters cold turkey events back in Beta4. those were the best
Only onboard view and some real nice battles with serveral top riders
bring those races back!! ;D
Woohoooo! Now that's wot? I'm talking about! ;D
Quote from: Napalm Nick on April 13, 2015, 03:15:22 PM
Yeh good point JJ a race restart will nullify the quallie.
...
Did you take a look at the "pause_session" feature? You can run the qualifying e.g on Saturday and the race on Sunday. This way you can restart the race server multiple times without loosing your qualifying results.
Here the important lines of the dedicated.ini:
[race]
...
pause = ; 0 or 1. If set to 1, the event is paused and saved at the end of "pause_session"
pause_session = ; practice, qualify, warmup or race
pause_directory = ; the directory where data is saved. The default is "resume"
resume = ; the file to load to resume an event
...
But be warned it's a bit more work to run races this way.;) PeterV used it at some of his events.
Aha! I wondered what situation that might be used in.
Yes I have fiddled with it (I like to fiddle we all remember the wind incident ::) ) but now I see the practical application - thanks Dibu.
As yet I don't know how the resume would work but leave it to me to fiddle it out and I know where to come when I break it.
Thanks again hopefully another competitor?!
Quote from: Napalm Nick on April 13, 2015, 05:31:10 PM
... hopefully another competitor?!
Hehe, surely not.;) I need four wheels, walking frame, WRS or KRP - I'm a walking chicane at GPB and I don't want to ruin your races. ;D
Im all for some onboard action!! 8)
Used mainly onboard with beta 3 when I first tried GPB.. I use both chase view and onboard just depends what mood im in :D
Il be honest though.. It depends which bikes are used! With the wibbly wobbly front end in this beta it makes me feel a bit rough lol ;D
Quote from: dibu on April 13, 2015, 05:54:27 PM
Hehe, surely not.;) I need four wheels, walking frame, WRS or KRP - I'm a walking chicane at GPB and I don't want to ruin your races. ;D
No worries I am the official back marker.
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on April 13, 2015, 06:07:33 PM
. It depends which bikes are used! ;D
Open to all suggestions born from experience - which are best?
And I think the onboarders will need a club name.
Quote from: Napalm Nick on April 13, 2015, 02:27:39 PM
In my race if someone gets a core we restart!
That means the race never ends :)
MaX.
Quote from: Napalm Nick on April 13, 2015, 03:15:22 PM
Interesting point to try if a player has a core - get back in quick!
If you have a core, you can rejoin the server but not rejoin the race, just to clarify ;)
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 13, 2015, 06:52:47 PM
Quote from: Napalm Nick on April 13, 2015, 02:27:39 PM
In my race if someone gets a core we restart!
That means the race never ends :)
MaX.
My lad has already suggested a LeMans 24 hour :o
Quote from: Warlock on April 13, 2015, 07:00:04 PM
If you have a core, you can rejoin the server but not rejoin the race, just to clarify ;)
Ah understood no point then .
Quote from: Napalm Nick on April 13, 2015, 06:25:40 PM
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on April 13, 2015, 06:07:33 PM
. It depends which bikes are used! ;D
Open to all suggestions born from experience - which are best?
And I think the onboarders will need a club name.
Not sure.. i like a fair few tbh.. looking back though i still have a soft spot for the sc59 onboard ;) but its dead.. :-\
Anyone know what view they will use with Head Mounted Display? It certainly wont be chase view.
For any noobs:
There is only ONE view that is realistic. THE rider's POV. From the rider's eyes angle. That is it. ANY other view is not realistic. No emotions involved, no egos to be challenged or damaged, no denials, fallacies etc... just the facts lady.. just the facts.
I have YET to find another fan of GPB playing in realistic POV and now, it is impossible because the rider seems curbed and stunted.... :-\
If you want to simulate this(and why wouldn't you?):
https://youtu.be/-BLRP5ZIMGc
THIS is what it will look like: PERIOD. No ifs, ands or but but buts.
https://youtu.be/iQP2Bjd24J0
Quote from: G0G on April 13, 2015, 10:53:23 PM
Anyone know what view they will use with Head Mounted Display? It certainly wont be chase view.
For any noobs:
There is only ONE view that is realistic. THE rider's POV. From the rider's eyes angle. That is it. ANY other view is not realistic. No emotions involved, no egos to be challenged or damaged, no denials, fallacies etc... just the facts lady.. just the facts.
I have YET to find another fan of GPB playing in realistic POV and now, it is impossible because the rider seems curbed and stunted.... :-\
If you want to simulate this(and why wouldn't you?):
https://youtu.be/-BLRP5ZIMGc
THIS is what it will look like: PERIOD. No ifs, ands or but but buts.
https://youtu.be/iQP2Bjd24J0
I have only every used Helmet view, your video is helmet view with mouse look. Which since you can't use Track IR, or I couldn't get any of the other types to work. Mouse while using DST is a little to hard. lol When the next version has Rift DK2 support will be different. But tucking in might hurt, since when I tried it on Kart Pro, tucking in using the Rift DK2 in Beta 12, kind of hurts and makes your eyes want to cross.
The other rider had a slightly more upper body hang off body style when riding. The current rider has more of a old school 90's Grand Prix style of riding. Where his butt hangs off, but upper body is more center behind the wind screen.
but but but,
POV for me.
I would be using my TrackIR if I could.
In its absence getting better with analogue left /right looks.
I find a slice of Corner anticipation gives a nice head movement too.
Love MaxHUD helmet view and I do like a slightly orange tinted visor. Yeh baby!
What are your settings for onboard view and corner anticipation?
That makes me dizzy.. When the riders head snaps back to look forward after or mid corner.. Seems a bit glitchy to me so I sacked it off..
I will have to check a bit later Bob and get back to you.
I know I had to turn down the Anticipation because it was too much but off my head its about 20% of the slider.
The only snapping I find is when you run on and your head suddenly realises you're on a different trajectory to the planned one lol. But even this isn't too bad at a lowish setting.
I'm starting to use the analogue left/right look more to 'anticipate' the corner now. God I wish TrackIR worked.
Quote from: Napalm Nick on April 14, 2015, 07:28:13 AM
I will have to check a bit later Bob and get back to you.
I know I had to turn down the Anticipation because it was too much but off my head its about 20% of the slider.
The only snapping I find is when you run on and your head suddenly realises you're on a different trajectory to the planned one lol. But even this isn't too bad at a lowish setting.
I'm starting to use the analogue left/right look more to 'anticipate' the corner now. God I wish TrackIR worked.
I did testing with Track IR5 with GP Bikes, I got it to work sort of about a year and half ago. But the problem was had to use mouse emulation and eventually the view would start drifting off of center, so your had kept turning a little further each time. I asked Piboso for Track IR support but he said no plans for that.
Indeed Klax, I have read up on the various forum discussion history here and the work you did.
I think its a real shame. Nothing brings a Sim to life more like being able to look around naturally. It also makes racing 100% better.
I can live without it especially if VR headset support is being considered. I haven't looked at the Freetrack option. But its a shame.
I would stick it quite high in the wishlist after the bugs and normal development stuff.
Quote from: Klax75 on April 13, 2015, 11:02:16 PM
I have only every used Helmet view, your video is helmet view with mouse look. Which since you can't use Track IR, or I couldn't get any of the other types to work. Mouse while using DST is a little to hard. lol When the next version has Rift DK2 support will be different. But tucking in might hurt, since when I tried it on Kart Pro, tucking in using the Rift DK2 in Beta 12, kind of hurts and makes your eyes want to cross.
The other rider had a slightly more upper body hang off body style when riding. The current rider has more of a old school 90's Grand Prix style of riding. Where his butt hangs off, but upper body is more center behind the wind screen.
Well said and I agree fully,
It's ridiculously hard.. too hard. To be fair though, it is ridiculously hard in reality too. I also think this will develop the skills needed for seamless transition when occulus gets off their asses. Real Rider POV should be encouraged because that is what the real boys are seeing.. I also agree that the rider is morphed back in time. Instead of celebrating Marquez's, unprecedented, astonishing rider position, POVs, corner grip and results.. we are going back to 1992. :(
We only need to look at where Marquez's head position is mid corner. From down there, it seem like the curb is going to hit you in the face. The bubble of the bike is ABOVE YOU!! There are no reference points to visually take bearings from. One must learn to forget about the fairing an headstock as reference points to track position as they cannot be seen from these lean off angles. It's a long, long way from chase view, I can testify.
There is a new camera out this year in MotoGP. It was on Dovi's bike in COTA.. It is a gyroscopic 'look to apex' camera. Exciting but, alas, it is still pivoting like the GPB cams. The only way to give us POV cam angles is to put a helmet cam on the rider. As a compromise in GPB, the look to apex is WAY better than naught.
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on April 14, 2015, 07:23:21 AM
What are your settings for onboard view and corner anticipation?
That makes me dizzy.. When the riders head snaps back to look forward after or mid corner.. Seems a bit glitchy to me so I sacked it off..
I have been experimenting with settings. Most of the time I have no aids. I've been using auto rider movement because I cannot do it all as it stands. I use a joystick in my right hand and the mouse to look as I rider. My left hand becomes my rider's head. GPB could easily make this 'look to apex' just as realistic as my manual movements. Cant see that being an issue.
Joystick
Push forward=accelerate Pull back= Front Brake Twist= rider lean Push left/right = bike lean
Mouse = Rider Look.
If the rider wasnt so badly screwed up ATM, I would try my wheel along with the joystick to see how I could incorporate the pedals.
As far as the "SNAP" back to center. I have asked several times to no avail: How do I retard the 'return to center' so it isnt a snap? When I am leaned off the bike fully, I am a twisted mess, when the corner is finished, the rider must return to center of bike. If I do not return the rider to Top Dead Center(TDC), I am susceptible to mis-steering because I am not centered on the bike. That is where the 'return rider to center' button is programmed o the joystick. If I could slow this return to center down, it would be fantastic as: NO rider ever returns to center that quickly. It confuses people watching because it is such an 'oh snap'!
So, does anyone know how to slow the return to center feature?
Quote from: Klax75 on April 14, 2015, 07:37:52 AM
I did testing with Track IR5 with GP Bikes, I got it to work sort of about a year and half ago. But the problem was had to use mouse emulation and eventually the view would start drifting off of center, so your had kept turning a little further each time. I asked Piboso for Track IR support but he said no plans for that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N64D2u8wF0k
Dunno if you caught this GPB sim I built a few years ago. In a nutshell:
Bicycle helmet with 3 superbright LEDs facing backward. Wii remote watching the LEDs. Sending it's info to a dongle on the laptop running GPB. The program 'head tracker' was the interface. I had made a proper screen but lost interest because of other interests: real racing!
I stilll have this gear and I will ship it to anyone who is serious enough to build it better and show us some hotlaps! This system would be AWESOME on a sim bike as you could lean over and actually loo k into the apex, fun as hell.
I also suffered from 'drift' It is hard to find this center when we are immersed in VR. When I pressed the return to center I was looking at a rider centered on the bike but my real body was still leaned.. very confusing.
Another vid with look to apex.. Study the looking part(bottom cam), I am looking the exact, same way I look from the real cockpit of a real superbike on a real track during a real race. My head is turned into the corner WAY before I arrive. The bike is WAY GONE out of view. WAY GONE.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkGn1JT5bVI
Great stuff GoG
I always have a problem in bike games when the bike disappears from view completely because I have no body sensors telling me its still there, still a part if me, its dis-orientating . I have to best guess where the wheels are. Maybe with a handlebar style controller this would get better.
Peripheral vision in game is what we need.
Is it something we would get used to do you think?
Thinking peripheral vision has anyone used 3 monitors successfully?
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on April 14, 2015, 07:23:21 AM
What are your settings for onboard view and corner anticipation?
That makes me dizzy.. When the riders head snaps back to look forward after or mid corner.. Seems a bit glitchy to me so I sacked it off..
My settings
Field of view :65
Pitch: 50%
corner anticipation:50%
Update Bob.
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on April 14, 2015, 07:23:21 AM
What are your settings for onboard view and corner anticipation?
These are still being tweaked but this setup is best so far. I have come to the conclusion that one setting profile should not be made to fit every bike.
FOV 70
Pitch 45%
Tilt 5
Corner Ant 30%
reviewing these settings I now ask what is the difference between Face tracking and Tracking?
Quote from: Napalm Nick on April 14, 2015, 12:12:34 PM
Great stuff GoG
I always have a problem in bike games when the bike disappears from view completely because I have no body sensors telling me its still there, still a part if me, its dis-orientating .
This is normal. It really takes a while to get away from visual references from he center of the bike. This is how it was done up until the last, few years. The riding position of the 1990s looks almost comical compared to the new position. We see street 99% of street riding using a visual reference from the bike's center to the side of the road. This is impossible at race lean angles.So, how to best learn it?
I would say: Forget the 'centered bike' concept. Maybe try to think of the bike as a sidecar... You are the monkey in the corners and the pilot in the straights!
I have to best guess where the wheels are. Maybe with a handlebar style controller this would get better.
Peripheral vision in game is what we need.
Is it something we would get used to do you think?
I think you will be amazed when you see this sim in VR. No more looking to a monitor in front of the bike. This will change all your visual standards. No more chase view.
Let's say you do end up with a VR Headset(which is very likely because it is rapidly advancing toward us for reasonable prices!). What if Piboso does make it accurate enough to give advantages to those who learn to ride in the Marquezian position? It is obvious that, in real life, Marquez has an advantage because of his extreme riding position. The physics of braking, cornering, accelerating bear this out.
So, a rider learning to ride like Marquez within GPB, in theory, should be able to go faster than someone not leaning the rider to such an extreme. Whoever learns to ride like the champ in GPB, should not lose this skill advantage to generic, 'one view fits all' views. Not fair to not give some bona fide, certified VR advantages to the simmer who simulates.
Thinking peripheral vision has anyone used 3 monitors successfully?
Great question! I was wondering the same. It could make 'glancing' a viable alternative to straight up staring forward.
Agree Gog and you have an exciting way of expressing it. I want it all now please. And I'm already the monkey so half way there!
Tell me I wont have to roll around on the carpet getting my knees down with a VR set? Bones are too old.
So now I gotta find 3 monitors.....
Quote from: G0G on April 14, 2015, 01:24:51 PM
What if Piboso does make it accurate enough to give advantages to those who learn to ride in the Marquezian position? It is obvious that, in real life, Marquez has an advantage because of his extreme riding position. The physics of braking, cornering, accelerating bear this out.
So, a rider learning to ride like Marquez within GPB, in theory, should be able to go faster than someone not leaning the rider to such an extreme. Whoever learns to ride like the champ in GPB, should not lose this skill advantage to generic, 'one view fits all' views. Not fair to not give some bona fide, certified VR advantages to the simmer who simulates.
I can hear Klax75 requesting you to play with DST only, otherwise you have a unfair advantage ...
Side note: the most efficient way to ride a bike depends ... on the bike. You don't ride a 20yrs old 500cc bike the same as you ride today's motogp.
So it's not granted at all that riding Marquez style at the time would have been any faster (if possible at all).
MaX.
Could I be bold and ask you guys who dabbled with Corner Anticipation a long time ago to revisit it with the kind of settings I use. I don't know if its been updated or improved or anything but I actually think its very good for keeping the head on the racing line. For tighter curves I add a bit more 'look' with some analogue stick (though this will be used primarily for keeping track of who's around me in-race)
Obviously you need to use POV Helmet view none of that stationary Tank helmet malarkey or it is a nonsense. ::)
I don't seem to suffer any 'return to centre snap' ? 8)
Maybe one day there will be a range of servers allowing all combinations of difficulty. I mean I wouldn't say NO ASSISTS at the moment because the fanbase isn't big enough (hell I'm not even sure the onboard view only fanbase is big enough) and I also believe those having no assists will be faster anyway once practiced in the art. At the top of the difficulty tree might be DST only and the server will be full of Demi Gods all chanting Kerlax Kerlax. :D
Quote from: Napalm Nick on April 14, 2015, 02:17:46 PM
Agree Gog and you have an exciting way of expressing it. I want it all now please. And I'm already the monkey so half way there!
Tell me I wont have to roll around on the carpet getting my knees down with a VR set? Bones are too old.
So now I gotta find 3 monitors.....
!! 8)
I know that native monitor support is quite important. Otherwise, visuals are compromised. I am very interested in any progress you make in this regard!
QuoteSide note: the most efficient way to ride a bike depends ... on the bike. You don't ride a 20yrs old 500cc bike the same as you ride today's motogp.
So it's not granted at all that riding Marquez style at the time would have been any faster (if possible at all).
MaX.
It has more to do with the tires than the bike actually. We have seen great advances in power, suspension and electronic aids, but, the tires have made most of the difference.. because of their evolution. The compounds(multiple), the shape have evolved significantly. Marquez is the in the early generation of mean leaners. He started out hanging off a bike and refined it beautifully. But, the tires were always waiting for him. Let him try to ride his trademark ways on an older bike and tires... I would predict him having to struggle to get to 50 degrees.. 60 degrees would be impossible.
My point about rewarding those who ride like Marquez in GPB is: In reality, he is getting more grip and acceleration whilst being less hard on the tire. A winning combination without doubt. It cant be easy, if it was, the rest of the field would be on to it already.
If people decide to realistically simulate this angle/view/position in GPB, should they not have the same payoffs and benefits Marquez enjoys in reality??
Quote
Posted by: Napalm Nick
Could I be bold and ask you guys who dabbled with Corner Anticipation a long time ago to revisit it with the kind of settings I use. I don't know if its been updated or improved or anything but I actually think its very good for keeping the head on the racing line.
I gave up on corner anticipation, as it was not realistic enough for me. It is WAY better than none, but still...
The latest GPB has kept the rider high in position. Making the head high and making it impossible to do the MM thingy.
You can see me "snap" back to center a few times in this vid..
https://youtu.be/mUaev91MjnQ
Quote from: G0G on April 14, 2015, 03:02:33 PM
I gave up on corner anticipation, as it was not realistic enough for me. It is WAY better than none, but still...
The latest GPB has kept the rider high in position. Making the head high and making it impossible to do the MM thingy.
You can see me "snap" back to center a few times in this vid..
https://youtu.be/mUaev91MjnQ
Ah yes I see it now. Odd.
MM thingy aside and I know its not realistic enough but I'm glad you say its way better than none. I really like it for the fact that GpB
has it if you know what I mean. There's hope that as other riding styles are introduced it might even be a basis for MM style movement.
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 14, 2015, 02:32:19 PM
Quote from: G0G on April 14, 2015, 01:24:51 PM
What if Piboso does make it accurate enough to give advantages to those who learn to ride in the Marquezian position? It is obvious that, in real life, Marquez has an advantage because of his extreme riding position. The physics of braking, cornering, accelerating bear this out.
So, a rider learning to ride like Marquez within GPB, in theory, should be able to go faster than someone not leaning the rider to such an extreme. Whoever learns to ride like the champ in GPB, should not lose this skill advantage to generic, 'one view fits all' views. Not fair to not give some bona fide, certified VR advantages to the simmer who simulates.
I can hear Klax75 requesting you to play with DST only, otherwise you have a unfair advantage ...
Side note: the most efficient way to ride a bike depends ... on the bike. You don't ride a 20yrs old 500cc bike the same as you ride today's motogp.
So it's not granted at all that riding Marquez style at the time would have been any faster (if possible at all).
MaX.
I agree having a Marquez riding style while just using a 500cc would look kind of silly. lol. The new rider on a 500cc looks great.
but i think marcquez would ride a 500cc in his own style, not in the old rider style.
Quote from: G0G on April 14, 2015, 03:02:33 PM
It has more to do with the tires than the bike actually.
Well, tyres are a (major) part of the bike for me. Anyway, I'd also give a fair share of what MM can do today to electronics and engines too: you don't lean that much without being 100% sure that there's no sudden torque increase when you pass 10,000 RPMs and without being 100% sure that the TC can warn you clearly and reliably that you're at the very limit.
One of the reasons we see what we see is that today's bikes do warn a lot more than bikes from 20 yrs ago. You can feel the limit without the need of being a totally crazy cowboy ready to have your bones shattered at each turn exit.
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 14, 2015, 10:35:43 PM
Quote from: G0G on April 14, 2015, 03:02:33 PM
It has more to do with the tires than the bike actually.
Well, tyres are a (major) part of the bike for me. Anyway, I'd also give a fair share of what MM can do today to electronics and engines too: you don't lean that much without being 100% sure that there's no sudden torque increase when you pass 10,000 RPMs and without being 100% sure that the TC can warn you clearly and reliably that you're at the very limit.
One of the reasons we see what we see is that today's bikes do warn a lot more than bikes from 20 yrs ago. You can feel the limit without the need of being a totally crazy cowboy ready to have your bones shattered at each turn exit.
MaX.
Well said Max! ;)
It's the one reason I would rather support Classic bike racing because I don't feel that modern MotoGP riders are true racers nowadays(Oooo... That should get tongues wagging! LOL). That is not the fault of the riders of course, just the stupid governing body allowing the developers to go way too far in my opinion. Now unfortunately it's almost pull the trigger and just hang on riding. :P
Okay so I'm exaggerating a touch, but only about as much as modern riders get a helping hand from todays technology. :P
Having said that, I still watch MotoGP and I'm a big supporter of it. But I do wish they would go back to the 500cc 2 stroke bikes.... SO much more exciting to watch. ;D ;D
Okay Max, I'll shut up now.... I know I'm like an old record.... But I can't help hoping for sense to prevail and a return to the spectacular 2 stroke bikes. :P
Hawk.
PS: Would love to see a classic race between not only Rossi and Marquez, but just to put the whole of a todays grid of Moto GP riders on the Classic 500cc 2 stroke GP bikes and see how they faired?! That would be one hell of an event, even if only a one off event for the fans. ;D ;D
"Hawk.
PS: Would love to see a classic race between not only Rossi and Marquez, but just to put the whole of a todays grid of Moto GP riders on the Classic 500cc 2 stroke GP bikes and see how they faired?! That would be one hell of an event, even if only a one off event for the fans. ;D ;D"
There is no replacement for displacement!
How about they all get on 750cc triples, that is how I always felt when the 990's came on the scene against the 500's. 2 stroke forever!
Quote from: WALKEN on April 15, 2015, 05:13:02 AM
"Hawk.
PS: Would love to see a classic race between not only Rossi and Marquez, but just to put the whole of a todays grid of Moto GP riders on the Classic 500cc 2 stroke GP bikes and see how they faired?! That would be one hell of an event, even if only a one off event for the fans. ;D ;D"
There is no replacement for displacement!
How about they all get on 750cc triples, that is how I always felt when the 990's came on the scene against the 500's. 2 stroke forever!
Absolutely! +1 on that WALKEN! ;D
It was such an unfair change over from the 2 strokes to four stroke machines. Seems they were going to make sure that the public would except the change over better by showing how competitive the 800cc or 990cc 4 stroke machines were over the 500cc machines. It was such a stupid comparison by FIM to have made...... I don't think it would've ever have been excepted had a 500cc 4 stroke been put on the plate for the change over to 4 stroke machines because the 500cc machine would've blown them into the wind. Lol
I've heard it said the change over was because of exhaust emissions, I say, "What a load of CROCK!". Any race event is not going to make that much a difference to air quality of the planet that warrants a change to a cleaner emission machine at the expense of the spectacle of the event. Now they've virtually done the same mistake with bringing in the new hybrid F1 engines.... Just doesn't sound right and destroys the spectacle of F1. Even the teams are now wanting to go back to normally aspirated F1 engines because of the complexity and expense of these new hybrid engines. I hope the governing body see's sense for once.
But it's the same for the bikes in that the 2 stroke engine is a simpler engine and a lot less expensive to produce than the 4 stroke machines, so yeah I think at the time there was a lot of backroom back handers going off there between particularly Honda(Who've always wanted to produce 4 stroke machines rather than the 2 stroke bikes) and high rank FIM board members to ram through the change no matter what.
We are now left with a situation in MotoGP which would be like riding GPBikes with all the aids switched on! And I don't know any rider here on the forum that would want to ride GPBikes in that way. Yet a lot of the younger members of the community seem to like the way MotoGP is now in the Modern era..... That just doesn't compute in my mind.
Let's get back to real motorcycle racing I say! Let's go back to the 2 strokes! ;D
Okay.... I'll get off my soap-box before I get told to shut up. Hehe :P
Hawk.
Hawk, I do get you're deeply in love with 2 strokes and I respect that, but your arguments above are weak.
The switch to 4 strokes was motivated by emissions, but not because racing on 4 strokes would save the planet, but because 2 strokes were to progressively disappear from commercial road bikes. There was no point in keeping 2 strokes in competition only. The death of 2 strokes for road bikes was already planned worldwide. Keeping the racing on 2 strokes would have made little sense.
Also, don't buy the argument "a 2 stroke is cheaper": this may be relevant for lower classes (125, moto3) where budget is an issue. For motogp it's totally a non-issue. Honda/Yam/Suz would invest the exact same budget in a 2-strokes motogp, even if that would mean sand the cylinders with mars-powder (mars the planet, not the chocolate bar).
Displacement: the 500 vs 990 was dictated by the way engines work. Before going live with 4 strokes, nobody could have had a very precise idea of what was the correct displacement to have "a 4 stroke that goes as fast as a 2 stroke", hence the choice that, at the time, made sense (990). Notice also that the "There is no replacement for displacement!" is not always true. They went down from 990 to 800, but then back to 990 because the 800 were *faster* in the turns. But 2 strokes were to disappear anyway. so nobody really cared.
The aids argument: it doesn't seem to me that with the aids the field is level ... if it was as easy as you say to ride with the aids, we'd have 25 marquez aligned and 100 more in line for a seat. We know that's not the case.
To me the thing that really really sucks at the moment is that they allow engine/bike real-time tuning depending on the position of the bike on the track. This is utter non-sense, from any point of view: useless on road bikes, no advantage in terms of safety, brings nothing to the spectator ... I can't understand why the hell it is permitted ... maybe it's hard to enforce the ban, but that wouldn't be a good reason not to ban it ...
I don't think today's motogp races are less spectacular than 500cc races. I enojoy both periods, each at his own time. But time moves forward. That's why we have "classic bike" races :) Go have your 2 strokes shot there :)
MaX.
Its almost like who can trust the bike more.. The bike knows where it is on the track, how much TC and power to deliver.. Scarey lol. Especially if it malfunctions...
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 15, 2015, 11:39:35 AM
Hawk, I do get you're deeply in love with 2 strokes and I respect that, but your arguments above are weak.
The switch to 4 strokes was motivated by emissions, but not because racing on 4 strokes would save the planet, but because 2 strokes were to progressively disappear from commercial road bikes. There was no point in keeping 2 strokes in competition only. The death of 2 strokes for road bikes was already planned worldwide. Keeping the racing on 2 strokes would have made little sense.
Give me a good reason they decided to kill the 2 stroke road bike market? I cannot see any good reason they decided to do this.
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 15, 2015, 11:39:35 AM
Also, don't buy the argument "a 2 stroke is cheaper": this may be relevant for lower classes (125, moto3) where budget is an issue. For motogp it's totally a non-issue. Honda/Yam/Suz would invest the exact same budget in a 2-strokes motogp, even if that would mean sand the cylinders with mars-powder (mars the planet, not the chocolate bar).
Granted and agreed... Teams would spend the same today even if they were still 2 stroke.
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 15, 2015, 11:39:35 AM
Displacement: the 500 vs 990 was dictated by the way engines work. Before going live with 4 strokes, nobody could have had a very precise idea of what was the correct displacement to have "a 4 stroke that goes as fast as a 2 stroke", hence the choice that, at the time, made sense (990). Notice also that the "There is no replacement for displacement!" is not always true. They went down from 990 to 800, but then back to 990 because the 800 were *faster* in the turns. But 2 strokes were to disappear anyway. so nobody really cared.
That's exactly what myself and Walken are talking about: Why didn't they make change with a same 500cc 4 stroke? Because the 500cc 4 stroke was not quick enough to compete with the 500cc 2 stroke bikes, therefore the transition in public eyes would've been seen as a nonsense, so they unfairly decided to make the 500 compete with the 990 and 800 cc bikes.... Why didn't they allow, as WALKEN stated above, the two stroke bikes of at least 750cc and then let the public decide what they wanted to see in the GP's?? To me it was a manufacturer/FIM political decision rammed through by the likes of Honda(who at the time and still are a very powerful influence in the politics of motorcycle racing); it's well known that at the time Honda were desperate to move to 4 stroke bikes. They would've succeeded earlier in the eighties if they had there way, but they couldn't make a 500cc 4 stroke strong enough or fast enough to compete at the highest levels, but seems they got their way eventually. :P
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 15, 2015, 11:39:35 AM
The aids argument: it doesn't seem to me that with the aids the field is level ... if it was as easy as you say to ride with the aids, we'd have 25 marquez aligned and 100 more in line for a seat. We know that's not the case.
I did say I was exaggerating about the aids making things SO easy for modern riders, but it's undeniable that riders have
probably lost that ability to ride a motorcycle from the seat of their pants these days. This is why I would be seriously interested in these guys racing in a classic GP event just to see how they'd compare with the likes of Rossi, Lawson, Gardner, Doohan, Roberts, Sheene, Spencer, Mamola, etc, etc. I'm sure Rossi would still have the muscle memory left from the 2 stroke era.
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 15, 2015, 11:39:35 AM
To me the thing that really really sucks at the moment is that they allow engine/bike real-time tuning depending on the position of the bike on the track. This is utter non-sense, from any point of view: useless on road bikes, no advantage in terms of safety, brings nothing to the spectator ... I can't understand why the hell it is permitted ... maybe it's hard to enforce the ban, but that wouldn't be a good reason not to ban it ...
Absolutely agree on this point. It's a disgraceful decision to allow such a thing and can on detract from the sports integrity in the eyes of the true fans of motorcycle racing.
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 15, 2015, 11:39:35 AM
I don't think today's motogp races are less spectacular than 500cc races. I enojoy both periods, each at his own time. But time moves forward. That's why we have "classic bike" races :) Go have your 2 strokes shot there :)
MaX.
When I say less of a spectacle, what I mean is that although we still have great races in the modern era of MotoGP, we all know that they are using advanced aids to ride the bikes like they do, so that heroism and respect that you could truly associate with the classic riders just isn't there for me personally. Yes of course they are good riders, all of them, but to me giving aids to a rider like they do is a form of cheating the fans, a façade.... You might as well watch them playing MotoGP 2014 on your TV screen.... that's just as false an image as you get these days compared to the raw skill, talent and spectacle the classic GP guys gave us.
Yes I do feel very strongly about the way they rammed the 4 strokes through into taking over from the 2 strokes because it was a political decision taken from the pressure of Honda. The demise of the 2 stroke road bikes was in my opinion manufactured to add to the weight of the argument for change.... Honda finally found a way to get there way after a decade or more of trying, and they did it in the very same way that politicians con the public into going to wars that are not justified. You can get people to accept the destruction of anything if you can make it their enemy. They conned everyone to get their own way, I've no doubt about that.
Of course I realise that there will never be a change back to the 2 strokes no matter how much I and many other fans would like this to happen, but when you realise the real reasons they made the change.... Well to me it's an absolute tragedy, and look were it's led us, to a definite mockery of modern Motorcycle Racing in comparison to the classic years.
Hawk.
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on April 15, 2015, 01:40:58 PM
Its almost like who can trust the bike more.. The bike knows where it is on the track, how much TC and power to deliver.. Scarey lol. Especially if it malfunctions...
Good point Bob! Absolutely.... I wouldn't like to trust a computer with my life in such a life or death situation. I'm surprised someone hasn't used a device to disrupt the controls on these bikes before now.... I'm sure some idiot will before too long.
Hawk.
Anybody who has twisted the grip on a coffee can piston 500cc 2 stroke only understands the reality of it.
4 strokes are for Harleys and tractors. Sure any race engine can be made fast with torque and power hence the high revving 4 stroke race bikes. Politics are for sure the plot behind getting rid of 2 stroke tech.
Food for thought- why is the meanest outboard (Etec) a 2 stroke? Fuel injected 2 strokes are way different than an old carb yz125. I'm all for technology and evolution but front wheel rice burners and 4 stroke bikes/snowmobiles/quads are meh IMO. I use to own 2 Suzuki LT500r quadracers and there is no quad on the market that would even come close in stock form, ever! Nothing. When it started to walk away with you all you could do was hold on. I also owned a Polaris 600cc triple 2 stroke and that thing on hard packed snow was unbelievable. Any 4 stroke I have ridden was roll on power which a 500cc 2 stroke can grunt with roll on power and not have to stay pinned. I also like the sling shot effect of a 2 stroke that a 4 stroke can not give you for that last minute snap needed to send you off a lip or snap your rear in place...
I don't care if your a fan of either or, 2 strokes are in many ways better, not even open for debate. Why is 4 stroke tech always trying to match that of 2 stroke? I rest my case.
Quote from: Hawk UK on April 15, 2015, 01:48:59 PM
Give me a good reason they decided to kill the 2 stroke road bike market? I cannot see any good reason they decided to do this.
Emissions: that matters for road bikes.
Quote from: Hawk UK on April 15, 2015, 01:48:59 PM
That's exactly what myself and Walken are talking about: Why didn't they make change with a same 500cc 4 stroke? Because the 500cc 4 stroke was not quick enough to compete with the 500cc 2 stroke bikes, therefore the transition in public eyes would've been seen as a nonsense, so they unfairly decided to make the 500 compete with the 990 and 800 cc bikes.... Why didn't they allow, as WALKEN stated above, the two stroke bikes of at least 750cc and then let the public decide what they wanted to see in the GP's?? To me it was a manufacturer/FIM political decision rammed through by the likes of Honda(who at the time and still are a very powerful influence in the politics of motorcycle racing); it's well known that at the time Honda were desperate to move to 4 stroke bikes. They would've succeeded earlier in the eighties if they had there way, but they couldn't make a 500cc 4 stroke strong enough or fast enough to compete at the highest levels, but seems they got their way eventually. :P
It's very simple: a 4 stroke engine has 1 combustion (phase during which thrust is generated) each 2 revolutions; a 2 stroke engine has one combustion each revolution. Hence the 1:2 ratio (500cc 2 stroke vs 1000cc 4 strokes). For the same RPMs, a 4 stroke with displacement 2*X is roughly (very roughly) as powerful as a 2 strokes with displacement X.
As simple as that. No secret reasoning, no hidden agenda. But people still like to put the anti-2-strokes conspiracy theory on the table ...
Honda was for 4 strokes because, as largest road bike manufacturer, they saw no interest in continuing with 2 strokes when road bike were planned to go 4 strokes anyway.
It's not like Honda was having too much trouble winning in the 500cc 2 strokes class if I recall correctly.
But you're still missing the point: even if 500cc or 750cc 2 strokes were faster than 1000cc 4 strokes, 2 strokes would have had to go anyway. It was the plan from the beginning: they just let some teams race with 2 strokes for an interim period. It's not as if the faster of the two was to be kept.
2 strokes are good today, in some very specific applications. But for road bikes ... well, no, they aren't. For cars they aren't neither.
Quote from: WALKEN on April 15, 2015, 07:57:37 PM
I don't care if your a fan of either or, 2 strokes are in many ways better, not even open for debate.
Oh well ... OK then, there's a big conspiracy of 4 strokes lovers that is preventing us to enjoy the pleasures of 2 strokes ... the 4th-stroke Reich maybe ... or an illuminati thing, now that I think about it, 2 is prime and 4 is not so maybe there's some deeper meaning to all this ... gonna ask one of my friends, as soon as he stops working on chemtrails ... :)
MaX.
2 strokes have reeds and ports for fuel mixture. 4 strokes have valves that need to be adjusted with springs and rods etc...
Not sure what the point is to be honest? "To reality" is the thread title, this is reality- http://www.brp.com/en-us/innovation/eco-performance-technologies/2-stroke-engines
Personally I enjoy the power delivery a 2 stroke offers, whether or not MotoGP ever raced 2 strokes again isn't really a huge concern to me. I'm also ok with change and have no ill feeling towards MotoGP's direction.
I do know one thing though, if "I" was to buy a fun machine it would be a 2 stroke- http://www.cyclenews.com/412/24543/Racing-Article/First-Look--2015-KTM-SX-Two-Stroke-Motocrossers.aspx street tires on that would be fun. Funny how its 2015 and they are still producing 2 strokes, it will come back around.
No offence
Quote from: WALKEN on April 16, 2015, 03:18:46 AM
Not sure what the point is to be honest? "To reality" is the thread title, this is reality- http://www.brp.com/en-us/innovation/eco-performance-technologies/2-stroke-engines
Or maybe the reality is that we have no road bike 2 strokes around (road bikes I mean, there're indeed some 2s for cross/enduro and they are good at that).
Every 3-4 years a new company pops up trying to convince the world they have a great 2 strokes that will change us all. But they tend to last just that, 3-4 years.
In fact I think the 2-strokes aficionados would have better chances asking something else: instead of asking for a 2 strokes, they could ask for a 4-strokes that tries (as much as possible) to behave like a 2 strokes. Something with a narrow powerband, zero torque in the low rpms, a very steep raise of torque when entering the powerband etc. That would be a poorly designed 4 strokes, but probably it would give what some seem to love. Smoke and smell could be fake, if requested :)
MaX.
P.S.
From your BRP link: read carefully where they describe the 600 and 800R 2s engines. They're just saying that they are better than
other 2 strokes:
Quote
- consume 11.3 l/100 km (20.8 mpg) which is lower than any other two-stroke engine in the industry,
- have virtually no smoke or smell with the lowest oil consumption of any two-stroke engine in the industry; 50% less in comparison to current models in the market,
- the best emission rating in the industry for a two-stroke engine according to the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA).
I like both but 4 strokes are more user friendly so I guess thats another reason why they rule now?
Racing tech trickles down to road bikes that they need to sell.. If road bikes were 2 stroke 500 beasts with a brutal powerband.. Biking on roads would probably be banned by now anyway lol
Anyway 2stroke racing still lives on...
Get yourselves over to the isle of man for the classic TT!
its no parade.. Bruce anstey set a new lap record on the yzr500 last year! Same machinery as the past legends used so it counted as a new 2stroke 500 lap record ;)
Lets be honest at least Max.
Maybe a 125cc has to be revved to stay in the "powerband" but obviously you have never rode a 500cc 2 stroke as you can lug it around and when you open it up it doesn't have a powerband so to speak but more of a pulling effect. Dirty/smoky 2 stroke bikes are those owned by ignorant people who don't know how to tune their bikes.
Hardly a new company- http://www.brp.com/
Also, direct injection is more efficient than a standard carb, hence fuel efficiency and emission compliant.
Its a known fact that in the snowmobile and boat world Etec (Bombardier) owns everyone in terms of power/weight/speed/efficiency 2 strokes!
A snowmobile engine in a street bike isn't something that hasn't been done before 8)
I will agree though, because of politics 4 strokes dominate and only because of politics!
Slow, painfully slow progress.. but it is progress.
https://youtu.be/nPKjWbKtODw
Quote from: WALKEN on April 16, 2015, 03:34:58 PM
Lets be honest at least Max.
Not sure anybody has been dishonest. I haven't.
Let's see about you: read this (it's interesting) and tell me what you think. http://motocrossactionmag.com/bike-tests/two-stroke-versus-four-stroke-2012-ktm-250sxf-vs-2012-ktm-250sx (http://motocrossactionmag.com/bike-tests/two-stroke-versus-four-stroke-2012-ktm-250sxf-vs-2012-ktm-250sx)
Quote from: WALKEN on April 16, 2015, 03:34:58 PM
Maybe a 125cc has to be revved to stay in the "powerband" but obviously you have never rode a 500cc 2 stroke as you can lug it around and when you open it up it doesn't have a powerband so to speak but more of a pulling effect.
I haven't indeed. But neither I have rode a 1000 motogp. However, the lack of torque in the low rpms typical of 2s is not something secret (for track racing bikes at least). It's a well known fact.
Of course you can tune a 2s to have more torque in the lows, but this comes (as always) at a price in the highs.
Friend of mine had a chance to chat with an ex-rider (500cc and motogp era): he preferred 500cc. The reason ? They were "funnier to ride" because of the "kick" when you enter the powerband.
Funnier. Not better, not faster, not easier.
This reminds me of 2 street bikes that have been criticized because their power delivery is "too linear", "not funny enough" etc.
One is the honda cb1000r: when it got out many testers (including pro ones) were saying the engine was too flat in its delivery. On track however (0-400m, 60-100Kmh, etc) it was ahead of all its competitors. The other is the recent KTM 1290: the KTM guys aimed for something really usable. Many however wanted/were expecting a death-machine with a stupid power curve.
Quote from: WALKEN on April 16, 2015, 03:34:58 PM
Also, direct injection is more efficient than a standard carb, hence fuel efficiency and emission compliant.
True. Take a 2s, put direct injection, valves, complex lubrification and other measures to cope with emissions and you get a good engine.
But then you've lost many of the advantages you initially had. So constructors see no point in trying that direction.
Quote from: WALKEN on April 16, 2015, 03:34:58 PM
I will agree though, because of politics 4 strokes dominate and only because of politics!
Yeah, some dumb people decided that lowering the emissions on road bikes (and cars, trucks, buses etc) is a good idea. How silly ... Of course, the true hidden agenda is/was "kill the 2s" ... but we know that, don't we ?
MaX.
Good read Max.
The statement "lets be honest" was only about those who try to convince themselves that 4 strokes are better. Better for who?
Remember I did say that for me I would pick a 2 stroke over a 4 any day of the week because it is just more fun to ride..
Different strokes for different folks ;)
PS- that is why guys like wild crazy girls, because they are fun.
This is somehow related to the 4s-2s debate: http://www.gazzetta.it/Passione-Motori/Moto/18-04-2015/suzuki-pronta-lanciare-sua-moto-turbo-recursion-110502687911.shtml (http://www.gazzetta.it/Passione-Motori/Moto/18-04-2015/suzuki-pronta-lanciare-sua-moto-turbo-recursion-110502687911.shtml)
It's in italian and honestly I can't judge how realiable (I'm trying to find out). Rumors about the recursion have been around a while but ...
Anyway, the general idea is: 600cc 4 strokes parallel twin, turbocharged. 99cv @ 8,000 RPM (I can hear the 2s fans laughing), 100Nm @ 4,500 RPM (and here the laughing stops, or at least they should).
Once again, the #1 justification of all this is, guess what, emissions and efficiency.
MaX.