I think it's the only lacking thing in the sounds. As we all know, in real life, when turning the throttle of few degrees, of 10 or full, even at the same rpm, the engine doesn't sound same. It would be harder to configure for the game, but it would sound much more realistic.
Just a though.
PS: Should affect when the throttle go from 100% directly to 0% too (for fire spitting or turbo/supercharger)
you mean when you actually 'choking' the moto? meaning that you give more throttle than the engine can actually rev. if this is what you mean the sound is different also between 2 stroke, 4 stroke w/ carbs and w/ injection.
nice point though if this is what you mean.
Turbo sound: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=zpu4tBZr8CQ#t=88
When he revs quite high and then stop, you can here the turbo's fan spinning.
Fire spit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=AprE6HShaeo#t=16
Same thing as the turbo, but spits fire from the exhaust and makes a kind of detonation sound. (would be cool if we can have the fire too, the frequency of the spits will progress and depends on the engine temperature)
"Roooooo" sound: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=zpu4tBZr8CQ#t=92
When turning the throttle enough to make the revs stagnating it does a nice sound.
That's what i meant. :)
I tend to agree that the sound department is one in which GPB lacks (especially after somebody made me listen to some iRacing sounds, gee that was just awesome).
BTW, "Fire spit" is most of the time a sign of a poorly tuned engine (especially on road bikes on which people do home-made modifications).
MaX.
The sound system reminds me of the problems with the old GP500 one as i had a few goes at engine sounds with that. The original sample was just being replayed faster to mimic increasing engine revs, always end up being a unpleasant screech at higher rpm that really did not sound much like an engine.
Also the onboard engine sounds need to be different to the third person chase view, your sat in front of the exhausts and tend to hear more induction roar than anything else (lovely sound ;D)
Love the wind noise sounds as well, but these should reduce when you tuck in behind the screen bubble.
Maybe a programmable synthesizer engine would be better than fixed sample replay, it would be more controllable over the full range of rpm and could react to cues for short shifting, engine overrun etc
Sound is so important, like watching a movie with the sound off, much of the intensity of the visual content is lost
>Max
My father's Z1000sx spit flames when he decelerates from high speed, and just an akra exhaust has been putted long ago. :>
>h106
What you describe reminds me of Moto Racer World Tour on ps1. Only 1 crappy sample extremely pitched on high revs. God, my ears don't want to remember.. xD
Quote from: Wh1t34Gl3(SAS) on January 11, 2015, 06:59:20 PM
My father's Z1000sx spit flames when he decelerates from high speed, and just an akra exhaust has been putted long ago. :>
Just what I said: the engine is now poorly tuned (thanks to the new exhaust). On the other hand, flames look cool :)
Quote from: h106frp on January 11, 2015, 06:39:20 PM
Also the onboard engine sounds need to be different to the third person chase view, your sat in front of the exhausts and tend to hear more induction roar than anything else (lovely sound ;D)
The sound IS different in GPB between 3rd person and onboard. But then, what's the right sound for a 3rd person view ?
A programmable synth could be interesting but it's not simple: it has to be easy to use, produce a decent result and be lightweight for the cpu.
I can't find the site right now, but I'm sure I've seen a company around selling such a product (to create engine sounds).
MaX.
I suppose for third person it would be similar to what you might hear stood behind the bike during a static dyno run, not like the 'ride past' type sounds that are often used.
I suppose the difference in sounds is like you loving the sound of your throaty new can as you ride along and to the local villager stood watching you go by it just sounds like an annoying wail ;D same source sound but perceived to be very different by the two observers. I suppose that requires EAX type processing to work from a single source sample though.
Glad to hear onboard and chase sound sets are different, shows that i have not spent long playing in third person view though. I do remember how difficult it was trying to get an audio loop that sounded good across the full range of engine loads and revs, it was always a compromise and the changes in pitch do not always suit the changes in loop speed.
just a quick look around, quite impressed by this using fuzzylogic to synthesize an array of engine sounds;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaJlUyA8Kr0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaJlUyA8Kr0)
Quote from: h106frp on January 11, 2015, 07:49:28 PM
Glad to hear onboard and chase sound sets are different, shows that i have not spent long playing in third person view though. I do remember how difficult it was trying to get an audio loop that sounded good across the full range of engine loads and revs, it was always a compromise and the changes in pitch do not always suit the changes in loop speed.
Sound sets (samples) are not different, but the sound you hear is different, likely because the "virtual ears" are not in the same relative position (with respect to the sound source) when in 1st person view compared to 3rd person view.
MaX.
>HornetMax
Ahh tuned in that way. xD I though tuned in a more technical way. (torque map, ecu etc..) Now i think about it, any modifications are tuning..
What i don't like with the wind sound is that when you are around 80km/h and you don't touch the throttle there's almost nothing and when you just start to turn it on, you fully hear the sound. The progression and apparition are weird..
For the 3rd person view, i find illogical that the sounds are louder than in the 1st person view.
Iv started looking into sound modding.. (not getting anywhere with it as of yet) I have alot to learn lol.
I will stick with it though.. Bike sounds are very important!! Not critisizing because I know its difficult but theres alot of bikes I dont use in gpb because I cant stand the noise they make.. Personally I think the sound should be 80% of the sim experience. At the moment its more like 10%.. Nothing excites me :(
Your 750cc etc sounds awesome! Great work!
If I copy/paste the maurasama990 sound files to another bike will that work? Or would I have to tweak to fit different power curve etc?
>BOBR6 84
The 990 has tdu1's agusta brutale sounds that is described to be an I4 engine. Sounds more like a V4 to me than a I4... Just a though..
You can copy the sounds if you want but if the min and max value of the hud (first and last rpm number) are modified, you'll have to convert everything in the scl. (few operations repeated like a hundred times..)
I might code (if i can) a little program to convert the 990 scl content depending on the max value. It'll avoid few hours of work on the sounds. xD
It'll do the operations but it won't write in the scl unfortunately, my skills aren't high enough to do that. :(
Quote from: Wh1t34Gl3(SAS) on January 12, 2015, 07:13:39 AM
The 990 has tdu1's agusta brutale sounds that is described to be an I4 engine. Sounds more like a V4 to me than a I4... Just a though..
The murasama is a V5 ...
And I would be surprised if Piboso used sounds from other games. How can you be sure the sound is from TDU ?
The murasama sound (as far as we know) has been created by a professional sound engineer especially for GPB. That's why the samples are encrypted.
Quote from: Wh1t34Gl3(SAS) on January 12, 2015, 07:13:39 AM
You can copy the sounds if you want but if the min and max value of the hud (first and last rpm number) are modified, you'll have to convert everything in the scl. (few operations repeated like a hundred times..)
I might code (if i can) a little program to convert the 990 scl content depending on the max value. It'll avoid few hours of work on the sounds. xD
It'll do the operations but it won't write in the scl unfortunately, my skills aren't high enough to do that. :(
Adapting the murasama sound to another bike shouldn't be that hard: it's only a few basic operations (surely not hundreds), one could do them with a spreadsheet.
I may be tempted to write a proper tool for editing the scl but I'm not really sure what are the features that would be useful.
On top of that, it will surely lack the most important feature: ability to play back the result ad GPB does.
MaX.
>HornetMax
Oh, you learn me something. Never knew there was V5 engines. 5 cyli ders are rare already but v5... :o
Always though v engines has pair number of cylinders..
But i was talking about the agusta's.
The rc990 and tdu's agusta brutale have same sounds (and maybe the f4 tamburini too, long time i haven't played this one, can't really remember) i noticed that since i first played with the rc. I noticed that the samples names are same as tdu's system as well (except for the s2b prefix and maybe the on/off idle that are added). But I'm not 100% sure, just assumptions. If all of this is false, then i'll change my mods sounds and create mine..
Even with a spreadsheet you still need to enter the values. In the program i'll attempt to code, everything is already written and you'll just have to enter the max value, since it's what makes change everything.
The 2 operations are:
Point's Value and refPitch operation : old max value * point value / new max value = new point value (or refPitch)
Min/maxPitch operation (pretty useless but i prefer doing it, even if the change is at 0,000001) : minPitch(or max) * old max value * old refPitch / new max value / new refPitch = new min or maxPitch
All of that repeated again and again.
But tell me if you make a tool, it would avoid me to work for nothing. xD
Quote from: Wh1t34Gl3(SAS) on January 12, 2015, 09:12:15 AM
Even with a spreadsheet you still need to enter the values. In the program i'll attempt to code, everything is already written and you'll just have to enter the max value, since it's what makes change everything.
Ah now I see what you mean .... parsing the .scl, that's fairly easy.
Quote from: Wh1t34Gl3(SAS) on January 12, 2015, 09:12:15 AM
The 2 operations are:
Point's Value and refPitch operation : old max value * point value / new max value = new point value (or refPitch)
Min/maxPitch operation (pretty useless but i prefer doing it, even if the change is at 0,000001) : minPitch(or max) * old max value * old refPitch / new max value / new refPitch = new min or maxPitch
All of that repeated again and again.
I know that. What I meant is I'd have to think out what a GUI would offer in terms of features to manipulate the .scl.
Adapting an existing .scl to a new MaxValue is not the only useful operation.
I could display a graph with the levels of each sample in a layer (to visually check that they align correctly).
I could make it so that if you alter the "end" of one sample, the "start" of the subsequent sample is automatically adapted (in principle, I could even do this graphically, dragging the "level" graph). And so on.
Parsing the original .scl and writing out the new one would be trivial.
But again, the feature we need the most (ability to "play" the .scl) is probably the hardest to implement (at least for me).
MaX.
MaX.
Cannot think about all of that now, maybe in 6 hours (i'm not at home actually). I'll try to help (if i can) thinking about what can be useful in this tool.
Quote from: HornetMaX on January 11, 2015, 06:27:43 PM
I tend to agree that the sound department is one in which GPB lacks (especially after somebody made me listen to some iRacing sounds, gee that was just awesome).
BTW, "Fire spit" is most of the time a sign of a poorly tuned engine (especially on road bikes on which people do home-made modifications).
MaX.
Erhm... The sounds of GP Bikes are made by the same person who does the iRacing ones ::)
Quote from: PiBoSo on January 12, 2015, 10:07:57 AM
Quote from: HornetMaX on January 11, 2015, 06:27:43 PM
I tend to agree that the sound department is one in which GPB lacks (especially after somebody made me listen to some iRacing sounds, gee that was just awesome).
Erhm... The sounds of GP Bikes are made by the same person who does the iRacing ones ::)
Well then I don't know then, maybe he did a better job on iRacing or maybe the sound engine in iRacing is better than the one in GPB. Or both.
This one is not the particular video I was referring to (I'm trying to find it), but these are already enough:
https://www.youtube.com/v/1DC5JSvNfys https://www.youtube.com/v/YGhUAjBvzbU
I don't have iRacing so I can oly compare the sound I hear in videos, but comments from people that do have it (and GPB of course) were saying that the difference in sound overall quality was very big.
Again, don't know the reason: better samples, better sound engine, or both.
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on January 12, 2015, 07:36:06 AM
Quote from: Wh1t34Gl3(SAS) on January 12, 2015, 07:13:39 AM
The 990 has tdu1's agusta brutale sounds that is described to be an I4 engine. Sounds more like a V4 to me than a I4... Just a though..
The murasama is a V5 ...
And I would be surprised if Piboso used sounds from other games. How can you be sure the sound is from TDU ?
The murasama sound (as far as we know) has been created by a professional sound engineer especially for GPB. That's why the samples are encrypted.
The sounds have been created by a sound engineer, but not especially for GPB, except for the Varese.
Greg did all the engine sounds for TDU, too, so no surprise ;)
Also I thinks there is a kind of problem with panning (panoramic, stereo or whatever is called). Don't know if this has been told yet, but in my opinion sounds are panned to much, in both while playing and replay
I like the 990 sound.. Not perfect but sounds raspy enough through my system.. I made 2 different sounds for the fireblade.. Iv deleted them because they sound totally different when I add it to the bike in game?
>Piboso
Ah, thanks for the reply. :)
Do you think i can use tdu's sounds too ? (actually using the zx-10r ones for the mods i try to make)
>BOBR6 84
What do you mean by different ? Before a tool will be made, i suggest you to use the operations i have written higher in the posts and fully rewrite the scl, it worked perfectly on my zxr750 mod (and will do same for the 400/250). :)
Quote from: PiBoSo on January 12, 2015, 05:49:41 PM
The sounds have been created by a sound engineer, but not especially for GPB, except for the Varese.
Greg did all the engine sounds for TDU, too, so no surprise ;)
Small world :)
If in his spare time he cares to improve a bit the sound of our dear bikes that would be appreciated. But then, I doubt he has any spare time at all.
BTW, this was the video I was referring to:
https://www.youtube.com/v/6TGn2W7e4NA
MaX.
The samples I used sound completely different when in game.. Thats what I mean.. I dont know what I am doing though so most probably my mistakes.. :P re-writing the scl? Lol ok...
Might be a good idea to set up some kind of sound database.. Any samples people have upload to one place for all to use.. Mix and match..
Quote from: HornetMaX on January 12, 2015, 08:08:36 PM
Quote from: PiBoSo on January 12, 2015, 05:49:41 PM
The sounds have been created by a sound engineer, but not especially for GPB, except for the Varese.
Greg did all the engine sounds for TDU, too, so no surprise ;)
Small world :)
If in his spare time he cares to improve a bit the sound of our dear bikes that would be appreciated. But then, I doubt he has any spare time at all.
BTW, this was the video I was referring to:
https://www.youtube.com/v/6TGn2W7e4NA
MaX.
I've had iRacing for years and have raced that car several times. If I remember right it is a real car that uses a motorcycle engine, I don't remember what kind of bike engine though. I use to play with phones on when racing and that cars sounded really nice. You could feel the different pitches and over revs. We need a sound like that in GP Bikes.
We also need other sounds, wind, pit lane horns and buzzers, etc.
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on January 13, 2015, 12:03:42 AM
Might be a good idea to set up some kind of sound database.. Any samples people have upload to one place for all to use.. Mix and match..
The difficulty is not to find samples, but to find appropriate samples (samples with the right properties), to properly clean-up a sample and finally to add all the extras (sample with throttle off, pops, transmission sound and so on).
It's not as easy as "replace one .wav with another" and you're ready to go.
MaX.
Yeah I found that out for myself... Lol. The sound, sorry.. The noise I created.. Is not fit for human ears :-\
Its interesting though and im keen to learn some more.. To make a good sound has to be rewarding!
Are you any good with this stuff MaX?
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on January 13, 2015, 07:50:42 AM
Are you any good with this stuff MaX?
Not really. I have some memories of signal processing but that's about all.
A long ago I wrote a basic explanation of the .scl, it's here (http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=432.msg3135#msg3135).
MaX.
Yep, been reading through it! very helpful thanks.. still difficult though lol
this video clip aint useful but i remember being blown away by how loud these bikes were.. they literally bellow past, was amazing!
https://www.youtube.com/v/Tl7zjmLUOjo
only sounds iv heard in GPB so far which have similar characteristics belong to the moto2 bikes.. Warlock??
if that sound can be tweaked some more here and there would be sweet as a nut!! 8)
Superbikes sound nice but not as loud as GP.. only bike iv heard myself that comes close to motoGP is the Norton with the aprillia engine at the TT.. that was LOUD!! lol awesome.
Since it's going to another subject, i just want to know about my few questions. :s Please... :'(
On new topic:
>BOBR6 84
Impossible for the sound database. If we had just to replace sounds, my 3 bike mods would would have that finished already (damn, that would be awesome.. T.T), because they use the same samples. It all depends on the hud i think.
By loud you mean good or loud! xD
If it's the second you can increase the grain to make it louder (not too much or it won't sound nice..)
>HornetMax
Tell me if you are going to code the tool or if you have already started, because i'll start to make my little program soon. (i don't think i'll survive a total rewrite of the scl again T.T). I think a tool to rewrite the scl would be cool already, improvments can be done later.
Quote from: Wh1t34Gl3(SAS) on January 13, 2015, 03:26:27 PM
>HornetMax
Tell me if you are going to code the tool or if you have already started, because i'll start to make my little program soon. (i don't think i'll survive a total rewrite of the scl again T.T). I think a tool to rewrite the scl would be cool already, improvments can be done later.
What do you mean exactly with "a tool to rewrite the scl" ?
MaX.
>HornetMax
You agree that the scl is the main part for implanting/setting sounds ? Just something that avoid doing the operation and correcting everything would helps a lot already. Releasing that already would help peoples and keep them wait the time something more thoroughly is being developped for the next version. Not forcing or anything else btw, don't take it the wrong way.. Just want to know if it'll be made or not.
Quote from: Wh1t34Gl3(SAS) on January 13, 2015, 05:43:53 PM
>HornetMax
You agree that the scl is the main part for implanting/setting sounds ? Just something that avoid doing the operation and correcting everything would helps a lot already. Releasing that already would help peoples and keep them wait the time something more thoroughly is being developped for the next version. Not forcing or anything else btw, don't take it the wrong way.. Just want to know if it'll be made or not.
If you're only trying to have a TDU sound work in GPB then yes. If you're creating a sound from scratch the scl part is just part of the whole thing.
But I'm still not clear, which "operation" you want to avoid to repeat ? Just scaling the entire file to a new maxRPM ?
MaX.
Not only talking about sound imports, of course it includes sound making, i talk in general, not only thinking about me... (now we talk about that, i'll try to make some sounds, now thinking about wich type of engine..).
You know what i mean.. I have listed these "operation" because that's what they are even if easy, higher in the posts.. That in less, it's already a lot of time that is saved. The big part of sound creation is making them good and loopable (can include edits). Rpm in samples can't be taken randomly, it has to be coherent with the engine sounds (and even the scl if possible, it would be easier to ajust).
Maybe gonna work on a 3 cylinder 4stroke sound (daytona ?).
Edit: Can i just know at wich rpm the rc990 samples has been taken ? It would help me to organise everything. (idle done btw)
Edit2: Okay, testing the layer0 in game. I hope it'll be good..
Quote from: Wh1t34Gl3(SAS) on January 13, 2015, 06:40:37 PM
Edit: Can i just know at wich rpm the rc990 samples has been taken ? It would help me to organise everything. (idle done btw)
Shouldn't this be the refpitch of each sample ?
MaX.
Ah yea, forgot about that.. :-[
Thanks for remembering me.
I have made idle, onlow, onmid and onhigh, testing them actually. Idle seems good, idk for onlow, onmid seems good too, and onhigh needs to be louder, i'll maybe remake 2 or 3 sounds.
Shame engine load has not been included and the 'space' mapped in 3 dimensions instead of 2 for selecting the correct sample, as i understand from this thread this is why you cannot get that low 'growl' typical of accelerating in a slightly too tall gear or when engine braking during braking when playing the sim, the samples are only mapped against the rpm's of a free running engine.
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on January 13, 2015, 08:31:49 AM
only sounds iv heard in GPB so far which have similar characteristics belong to the moto2 bikes.. Warlock??
if that sound can be tweaked some more here and there would be sweet as a nut!! 8)
I already did hundred times, just a little tweak can make it sound really crap, robotic , or whatever. Trust me, that was the best thing i could get.
I even worked with granular synthesis for it, i did all i could m8.
And when you think you have something nice, the game changes it a lot! not even close to what you think you've got.
Its more a matter of luck than science.
I got bored of trying to get a real sound. Moto2 sound took me 2 months of investigation and editing. We need a better base to work with,....either sound engine , tools or professional samples.
https://www.youtube.com/v/JtwrJCGx9a8
Ah no no... Its a good sound already! Suits the moto2 nicely..
What I mean is that in your moto2 sound I can hear similarities to the real motogp bike sounds.. So maybe the moto2 sounds could be used on some of the big 1000cc gp bikes.. Tuned slightly! Which is obviously the PITA part lol.
But yeah its a good quality sound!
>Warlock
Totally agree, i tried 2 days ago to create 3cylinders (4strokes) sounds and in the layer0, only the idle, onmid and the onhigh seems to sound almost same in game..
But I don't think it is possible to make them. Firstly because reading 2 samples on the same rpm zone is needed and this would force to separate the sounds in 2. Far from a noob's level. :(
It is weird how gpb renders sounds in game too..
Hmmm ... I took a quick look at SFML (http://www.sfml-dev.org/index.php (http://www.sfml-dev.org/index.php)) and it seems I can use it (on top of Qt) to create a tool allowing to edit the .scl and to "play it back varying the RPMs (via slider) in real time" (as SFML has a function to dynamically vary the pitch).
Now *I AM* tempted to start working on such a tool ...
MaX.
>HornetMax
Ah. Thank you so much Max. ;D
I don't think my program would have served often.. (it would work only for sound convertions e.g: from daytona to speed triple).
I'll continue my mods until you release it. Good luck.
Hmmm ... there's something that puzzles me: within a sample, knowing only RefPitch, MinPitch and MaxPitch (plus MaxValue, of course), I can calculate the start and end point of the sample (i.s. the value of point0 and pointN, N being the last point in the sample).
Why would one be able to change independently Min/MaxPitch and the start/end value of sample ?
It seems to me there's a relationship between these ...
MaX.
Could it be a mechanism to shorten the playback time length of the sample without altering the pitch?, ie the bike is accelerating faster than the normal loop time of the original sample
Quote from: HornetMaX on January 18, 2015, 10:53:52 AM
Hmmm ... there's something that puzzles me: within a sample, knowing only RefPitch, MinPitch and MaxPitch (plus MaxValue, of course), I can calculate the start and end point of the sample (i.s. the value of point0 and pointN, N being the last point in the sample).
Why would one be able to change independently Min/MaxPitch and the start/end value of sample ?
Quote from: h106frp on January 18, 2015, 12:44:20 PM
Could it be a mechanism to shorten the playback time length of the sample without altering the pitch?
No, I doubt it would have this as an effect.
Quote from: h106frp on January 18, 2015, 12:44:20 PM
ie the bike is accelerating faster than the normal loop time of the original sample
The time length of the sample has no importance as when you change the pitch (depending on the bike rpms), the "length" is changed too (as changing the pitch means in fact changing the "speed" at which you play the sample).
MaX.
I'm making progress on the tool.
I'm not 100% sure it will be able to play the sounds properly, but even if it only shows visually what the .scl does, it will be of great help: opening various .scl of mod bikes I'm seeing some pretty crazy stuff (plenty of missing samples, plenty of weird layouts) ...
MaX.
No problem Max, .scl file is the most annoying part to adjust and write, so it will be a great help anyway.
Also it will improve that crazy stuff you are seeing. Kind of normal when doing all manually.
About missing samples , i often use the same sample for different pitches, so when working on the sound i can add a mid step just copying, editing the sample and chage the name in the .scl
For example , i use the same onLow.wav for onVeryLow , onLow , onMid and make the scl.
At any point i can duplicate onLow.wav, edit the sound (bass, treble, for example), and save it as onMid.wav , and just change the name of the sample in the .scl.
This way i don't have to redo all the .scl if i want to add a step.
Quote from: Warlock on January 20, 2015, 02:25:41 PM
About missing samples , i often use the same sample for different pitches, so when working on the sound i can add a mid step just copying, editing the sample and chage the name in the .scl
That's OK, but what I'm seeing are really missing samples: the .scl references (for example) M1_onidle.wav and the file does not exist. :o
Not to talk about the fade-out fade-in of two consecutive samples ...I've seen some ... hmmm ...
creative stuff :)
MaX.
Hehe, a bit of spare time and things are coming together nicely: I can "play" the scl in my app !!
At the moment I have two sliders, one for throttle and one for RPM, and they don't interact (i.e. you open the throttle, the RPM stay constant), but that should be easy to solve.
I'm very very pleased, the "audio" part was the one I had more doubts on.
I'll just add now ways to manipulate the values of the .scl (show them in a table, maybe interact with the graphs, dragging stuff around) and the "simulation" of the engine/bike dynamics.
(https://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=0BzmU7Qoo77i1RGU2ZEsxb192eEk) (https://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=0BzmU7Qoo77i1RGU2ZEsxb192eEk)
MaX.
This is looking good Max! Will this be able to mix the sounds? Or is it for sound volume adjustments? Or both?
Nice job so far mate! ;D
Hawk.
Quote from: Hawk_UK on January 21, 2015, 04:30:56 PM
This is looking good Max! Will this be able to mix the sounds? Or is it for sound volume adjustments? Or both?
I'm not sure what you mean with "mix the sounds".
The tool will
NOT help you in creating good samples. However it will allow you to:
- alter the .scl file: probably via an integrated mini-editor and some smart manipulations of values (e.g. "rescale" an entire .scl, manage the fade-out/fade-in of samples etc
- see visually what the .scl does (the 1st of the 3 graphs above shows how the different samples in the .scl are "connected" together.
- "play" the .scl: this means that you will control the throttle (via a slider, maybe via the joypad/joystick) and you will hear the engine sound, more or less just like in GPB when the bike is in neutral.
On the last point:
- I coud do very fancy things like having positional audio (the library I use to play the sounds uses openAL, just like GPB)
- I could simulate real engine load : for that I would have to read also the bike.cfg and engine.cfg files (plus simulate the physics behind all that). I'm still pondering if that's really needed, most likely I'll settle for a 1st version that only simulates the engine in neutral and then see if that's not already enough.
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on January 22, 2015, 08:01:53 AM
Quote from: Hawk_UK on January 21, 2015, 04:30:56 PM
This is looking good Max! Will this be able to mix the sounds? Or is it for sound volume adjustments? Or both?
I'm not sure what you mean with "mix the sounds".
The tool will NOT help you in creating good samples. However it will allow you to:
- alter the .scl file: probably via an integrated mini-editor and some smart manipulations of values (e.g. "rescale" an entire .scl, manage the fade-out/fade-in of samples etc
- see visually what the .scl does (the 1st of the 3 graphs above shows how the different samples in the .scl are "connected" together.
- "play" the .scl: this means that you will control the throttle (via a slider, maybe via the joypad/joystick) and you will hear the engine sound, more or less just like in GPB when the bike is in neutral.
On the last point:
- I coud do very fancy things like having positional audio (the library I use to play the sounds uses openAL, just like GPB)
- I could simulate real engine load : for that I would have to read also the bike.cfg and engine.cfg files (plus simulate the physics behind all that). I'm still pondering if that's really needed, most likely I'll settle for a 1st version that only simulates the engine in neutral and then see if that's not already enough.
MaX.
Well it seems to me(if I understand this correctly) that each layer is acting like a separate sound channel?
Would it be possible to have each channel(Layer) in a separate graph chart, and be able to select/cut/copy/paste sections of the sound wave in those channel graphs and also to be able to adjust the volume/length of any selected sections of the sound wave? Maybe "Bullet one" in your post above will allow a similar
end result?
If I understand you correctly on the simulation of the real engine load: I presume that would enable you to play back the sound under different engine loads? If so then I think this would be very useful in obtaining an accurate engine sound throughout the range of sounds during different engine loads(If I understand you correctly on this?). This would in my mind be very useful in creating engine sounds how you want them.
Also to be able to play back the separate channels independently, and also to be able to play back all channels combined(like a final sample(end result) playback function).
But yeah. This is what I mean by being able to mix the sounds so that we could take basic sound sample/s and alter and combine sounds from that sample/s to create a final sound we want by using different channels and combining them by using the fade-in/fade-out and time scales for that process.
Not sure if this is possible, but just some thoughts to mull over. ;)
Your doing a great job there Max! ;)
Hawk.
PS: Just a thought on the subject of engine sounds: Seems to me that there should be two different engine sound files implemented into GPB for a future release, because the sound of a bike engine you hear when your riding the bike is totally different to hearing the engine sound from say a spectators point of view.
I have heard a two stroke engine sound in GPB, that onboard it sounds pretty good, but the same sound when heard from outside sounds like a 2 stroke lawnmower. Now either there is an element of tone deafness in the creation of the sound(or indeed in the recipient of the sound(ME. LOL ;D ), or there is a problem between simulating the two different sounds(onboard/outside) from one sound file?
The two layers are for on-throttle and off-throttle. In the 1st and 2nd graph I posted, on-throttle samples are the ones above the X axis, off-throttle ones are the ones below x axis (they are plotted with negative volumes so that you can separate them from on-throttle samples).
The (maybe simplitic) approach I'm using I do:
- Given the current RPMs, find for each sample in each layer, what is his own volume and pitch, according to the data in the .scl.
- Then weight each sample's volume according to the throttle position:
- Throttle 100% ON ==> weight for layer0 (ON) is 1, weight for layer1 (OFF) is 0
- Throttle 0% ON ==> weight for layer0 (ON) is 0, weight for layer1 (OFF) is 1
- Throttle X% ON ==> weight for layer0 (ON) is X/100, weight for layer1 (OFF) is 1 - X/100
And yes, altering the .scl allows you to tell GPB in which RPM range one sample (i.e. one .wav) will be played and how.
To be honest I think that just presenting the whole .scl in terms of RPM instead of normalised values (0.0 - 1.0) will already help a lot of people in understanding what's going on.
What I meant with "simulating the real engine load" is that in neutral if you open the throttle the engine revs up very quickly, because it has (almost) no load.
But if you do it in gear and with the bike on the track, it will rev up not that fast, because ... well, because it has to push the bike forward (and make the rotating parts spin, something I'm sure many are not aware). So by simulating that stuff, I could give you the same result (or something close to) as going in GPB and accelerating with the bike on a straight.
Concerning your PS: I can only guess that the spectator sound is "bad" because GPB can't render all the details that makes you hear what you hear. I mean stuff like sound propagation in real environment (with obstacles, with air temperature and density, etc). But the sound is only one,the one produced by the bike.
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on January 22, 2015, 11:37:48 AM
The two layers are for on-throttle and off-throttle. In the 1st and 2nd graph I posted, on-throttle samples are the ones above the X axis, off-throttle ones are the ones below x axis (they are plotted with negative volumes so that you can separate them from on-throttle samples).
The (maybe simplitic) approach I'm using I do:
- Given the current RPMs, find for each sample in each layer, what is his own volume and pitch, according to the data in the .scl.
- Then weight each sample's volume according to the throttle position:
- Throttle 100% ON ==> weight for layer0 (ON) is 1, weight for layer1 (OFF) is 0
- Throttle 0% ON ==> weight for layer0 (ON) is 0, weight for layer1 (OFF) is 1
- Throttle X% ON ==> weight for layer0 (ON) is X/100, weight for layer1 (OFF) is 1 - X/100
And yes, altering the .scl allows you to tell GPB in which RPM range one sample (i.e. one .wav) will be played and how.
To be honest I think that just presenting the whole .scl in terms of RPM instead of normalised values (0.0 - 1.0) will already help a lot of people in understanding what's going on.
What I meant with "simulating the real engine load" is that in neutral if you open the throttle the engine revs up very quickly, because it has (almost) no load.
But if you do it in gear and with the bike on the track, it will rev up not that fast, because ... well, because it has to push the bike forward (and make the rotating parts spin, something I'm sure many are not aware). So by simulating that stuff, I could give you the same result (or something close to) as going in GPB and accelerating with the bike on a straight.
Concerning your PS: I can only guess that the spectator sound is "bad" because GPB can't render all the details that makes you hear what you hear. I mean stuff like sound propagation in real environment (with obstacles, with air temperature and density, etc). But the sound is only one,the one produced by the bike.
MaX.
This sounds good to me Max.... I've studied your previous explanation a while back(from another thread I believe?) on how the sound .scl files work and your very useful excel spreadsheet(very nice post) and this addition of the engine load simulation in your tool above would be very useful in gaining a correct sound for when the bike is accelerating under load. Good and very useful stuff mate... Nice one! ;D
I understand what your saying about the bike engine sound being only one sound and that other factors come into play that defines the ambient engine sounds from outside of the bike(the Doppler effect I believe is already implemented)...... But maybe this is a large part of the problem with the issue of the "engine sound drowning" effect that is still present at this time? Maybe if/when the sound engine has been refined fully we will get a subtle but definite difference in ambient engine sounds from other bikes around us than what we currently have, which is currently the exact same engine sound drowning out your own engine sound which makes it almost impossible to define what your own engine is doing as far as revs and gear changes are concerned from the bike next to you. A big current problem in my book. I only hope Piboso has plans for sorting this "Engine sound drowning" issue out in the future as it will make such a huge difference when riding and dicing with other riders around you. Anyway this is a little off-topic and another story. :)
Hawk.
Quote from: Hawk_UK on January 22, 2015, 02:57:54 PM
I only hope Piboso has plans for sorting this "Engine sound drowning" issue out in the future as it will make such a huge difference when riding and dicing with other riders around you. Anyway this is a little off-topic and another story. :)
Only thing I can do about that is the following: I can simulate 2 bikes (let's say placed 3 meters apart), with the listener sitting on one of the two, with 2 throttles (one for each bike) and play the scene to see if, even outside GPB, you have what you call the "drowning". Personally I'm tempted to think you will, meaning the issue may not be in GPB.
I know we discussed this in the past and many agreed there's something not right, but I'm still not sure.
My reasoning: put some Offspring on your hifi and try to see if you hear it much louder when you are 1m away from the loudspeakers compared to when you're 5m away.
You don't. The change is minimal.
When you're on a full grid of bikes revving into the red-zone, I'm not sure you can
hear properly your own bike. What is surely true is that in real life you
feel your bike (essentially the vibrations) so what you hear (or don't hear) is less of an issue.
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on January 22, 2015, 03:12:31 PM
Quote from: Hawk_UK on January 22, 2015, 02:57:54 PM
I only hope Piboso has plans for sorting this "Engine sound drowning" issue out in the future as it will make such a huge difference when riding and dicing with other riders around you. Anyway this is a little off-topic and another story. :)
Only thing I can do about that is the following: I can simulate 2 bikes (let's say placed 3 meters apart), with the listener sitting on one of the two, with 2 throttles (one for each bike) and play the scene to see if, even outside GPB, you have what you call the "drowning". Personally I'm tempted to think you will, meaning the issue may not be in GPB.
I know we discussed this in the past and many agreed there's something not right, but I'm still not sure.
My reasoning: put some Offspring on your hifi and try to see if you hear it much louder when you are 1m away from the loudspeakers compared to when you're 5m away.
You don't. The change is minimal.
When you're on a full grid of bikes revving into the red-zone, I'm not sure you can hear properly your own bike. What is surely true is that in real life you feel your bike (essentially the vibrations) so what you hear (or don't hear) is less of an issue.
MaX.
I think the biggest problem with the engine sound drowning effect, is that when another bike is close(or even quite far behind you) the two sounds are the same volume and pitch, were in reality the sound of the bike your sitting on compared to the sound of other bikes from around you are subtly but definitely a different pitch of tone. This would make a huge difference in a rider being able to make out his own bikes sounds from others.
I'm certainly not saying that in reality on a starting grid with all riders full throttle at the start that you can easily hear your own bikes engine, but with this difference in pitch/tone I described above I definitely think you can still make out your own bikes engine noise.
If Piboso cannot recreate this difference in the sound engine then surely a compromise must be made with an ambient sound volume slider in the settings menu? I would not say that would detract GPB from being a real simulator as some would fear.
Hawk.
PS: Maybe when we have real motorcycle controllers like DD is creating we will also eventually be able to have some good force-feedback and vibration through the handlebars. That would be great. ;D
Quote from: Hawk_UK on January 22, 2015, 03:54:34 PM
I think the biggest problem with the engine sound drowning effect, is that when another bike is close(or even quite far behind you) the two sounds are the same volume and pitch, were in reality the sound of the bike your sitting on compared to the sound of other bikes from around you are subtly but definitely a different pitch of tone. This would make a huge difference in a rider being able to make out his own bikes sounds from others.
Well, if you have two identical bikes at identical revs, the pitch should be the same more or less.
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on January 22, 2015, 04:23:06 PM
Quote from: Hawk_UK on January 22, 2015, 03:54:34 PM
I think the biggest problem with the engine sound drowning effect, is that when another bike is close(or even quite far behind you) the two sounds are the same volume and pitch, were in reality the sound of the bike your sitting on compared to the sound of other bikes from around you are subtly but definitely a different pitch of tone. This would make a huge difference in a rider being able to make out his own bikes sounds from others.
Well, if you have two identical bikes at identical revs, the pitch should be the same more or less.
MaX.
Sorry Max, but rightly or wrongly(Maybe one of the current real-life racers we have on the forum could confirm or deny this), I disagree in that I believe from what I remember when racing myself that when you are on a bike yourself, the sound coming up from your own bike engine sounds different from the engine sound(pitch/tone) hitting you from bikes that are further away from you. I maybe wrong on this as it's been many, many years since I was last on a track racing. Lol :P
Hawk.
Quote from: Hawk_UK on January 22, 2015, 03:54:34 PM
Hawk.
PS: Maybe when we have real motorcycle controllers like DD is creating we will also eventually be able to have some good force-feedback and vibration through the handlebars. That would be great. ;D
Engine vibration would probably be quite easy to implement, something like a mobile phone 'vibrator' (snigger ::) or maybe the old flight sim trick of a large speaker driver strapped to the base of your chair and just tweak the audio for best effect
if you can read through the spanish guide this is a link to 'buttkicker' drivers
http://www.xsimulator.net/community/threads/guide-of-transducers-bass-shakers-and-buttkickers.5776/ (http://www.xsimulator.net/community/threads/guide-of-transducers-bass-shakers-and-buttkickers.5776/)
If you go over to ISR website Darin has done a lot with the buttkicker and all info is on the forums, in English lol. They work great BTW.
http://www.isrtv.com/ (http://www.isrtv.com/) ISRTV Website
Heres Darin Gangi in an old video but it shows the rumble effect in the video. Sorry but its old and the only one showing how it works. This is before the shows renaming. Darins show is pretty cool and lots af info on the forums too.
https://www.youtube.com/v/i8DGKh24qbU
These guys might hook you up
http://shakercentre.co.uk/aspbite/products/products.asp?intProductsID=6&content=buttkicker_lfe&gclid=CjwKEAiA3IKmBRDFx-P_rLyt6QUSJACqiAN8ZZYNAjhC65BSazYPKJYJJIL3KOj896dSZVlCRY1WPhoCbRXw_wcB (http://shakercentre.co.uk/aspbite/products/products.asp?intProductsID=6&content=buttkicker_lfe&gclid=CjwKEAiA3IKmBRDFx-P_rLyt6QUSJACqiAN8ZZYNAjhC65BSazYPKJYJJIL3KOj896dSZVlCRY1WPhoCbRXw_wcB)
With the top end systems offered with multi kickers you can tune.
DD
Sound tool progressing fast: engine is now read from .engn file and simulated (only in neutral gear).
I need to add idle and limiter plus polish the whole thing up and then a v1.0 is coming :)
MaX.
Keep at it Max, you workaholic lol. Thanks for putting so much effort into helping make GPB better.
DD
Quote from: HornetMaX on January 23, 2015, 11:31:04 PM
Sound tool progressing fast: engine is now read from .engn file and simulated (only in neutral gear).
I need to add idle and limiter plus polish the whole thing up and then a v1.0 is coming :)
MaX.
Great news... Can't wait to have a good look at this. Good work Max! ;)
Hawk.
Thank you Max. :'(
I hope what i asked will be implanted in the game too. That would be awesome and hyper realistic.
Quote from: Wh1t34Gl3(SAS) on January 24, 2015, 01:02:05 PM
Thank you Max. :'(
I hope what i asked will be implanted in the game too. That would be awesome and hyper realistic.
What exactly ?
MaX.
The main subject of the thread. xD
Quote from: Wh1t34Gl3(SAS) on January 25, 2015, 11:45:52 PM
The main subject of the thread. xD
But that's already there in GPB: the throttle position "mixes" the ON and OFF sample.
So at the same RPM, the sound is different depending on the throttle position (between 0.0 and 1.0, most likely in a linear manner).
MaX.
It only increases the volume of the sample. Irl, depending on the percent of the throttle, it sounds different. I have shown examples in the videos higher in the posts.
Quote from: Wh1t34Gl3(SAS) on January 26, 2015, 03:52:24 PM
It only increases the volume of the sample. Irl, depending on the percent of the throttle, it sounds different.
In fact it may be doing a bit more of increasing the volume of the sample: it mixes the ON and OFF samples raising the one and lowering the other (or vice versa) depending on the throttle.
Quote from: Wh1t34Gl3(SAS) on January 26, 2015, 03:52:24 PM
I have shown examples in the videos higher in the posts.
Where exactly ? I only see videos of turbo and fire spits.
MaX.
Turbo and fire spit are the same action in game (when the engine is going down in revs quite roughly), i have linked the h2r video on another period when you can hear a sweat "vroooooooo" when just turning the throttle from few degrees. It would require another sound depending on the percent of the throttle. (can be activated at 10% for example)
It's complicated to describe that.. I hope you see what i mean..
Quote from: Wh1t34Gl3(SAS) on January 26, 2015, 07:36:27 PM
Turbo and fire spit are the same action in game (when the engine is going down in revs quite roughly), i have linked the h2r video on another period when you can hear a sweat "vroooooooo" when just turning the throttle from few degrees. It would require another sound depending on the percent of the throttle. (can be activated at 10% for example)
It's complicated to describe that.. I hope you see what i mean..
I'm under the impression all this can already be done. Some bikes in GPB already have some sound similar to what you call fire spits (a kind of runt on closed throttle).
MaX.
Hello MaX,
Just curious, but could you explain, are the samples just short constant amplitude loop blocks with the envelopes and positions controlled by values in the file ?(which would seem to me to be the best way and allow for interactive editing also this is the way modern audio workstation software works) or do they have to be prepared (enveloped) externally on a trial and error basis?.
Just wondering how far this application could be developed, being able to tweak the file in an interactive manner and test the playback would seem to be a quick and easy way towards nice sounds.
Brilliant work so far!
Quote from: h106frp on January 26, 2015, 09:22:14 PM
Hello MaX,
Just curious, but could you explain, are the samples just short constant amplitude loop blocks with the envelopes and positions controlled by values in the file ?
Yes. That's my understanding of what GPB uses.
MaX.
So if you could find an opensource audio channel strip dll with cut/paste and envelope controls you could develop this into an integrated editor?
Only joking... would be nice though ;)
Quote from: h106frp on January 26, 2015, 10:00:53 PM
So if you could find an opensource audio channel strip dll with cut/paste and envelope controls you could develop this into an integrated editor?
Only joking... would be nice though ;)
There's no real need to integrate the manipulation of the .wav files (samples) in my tool as you can use my tool (that works on the .scl) in parallel of any tool that edits the .wav (like audacity, for example). My tool will only take care of editing the scl (telling how the different samples will chain together) and playing the whole thing.
It's already fully working :)
MaX.
Very cool 8)
Hopefully some of the people with access to race bikes will be able to record some genuine samples over the correct rev ranges
Wow looking good Max, fast job, thanks :)
Quote from: h106frp on January 26, 2015, 10:39:31 PM
Very cool 8)
Hopefully some of the people with access to race bikes will be able to record some genuine samples over the correct rev ranges
What equipment is needed to do this? For a Proper job..
My first race of the season is end of march so I have time to prepare (if its cheap enough) all my racing mates will be there.. So 200bhp ZX10R's to 650 twins.. Plenty of bikes.
Tell me what needs to be done and il give it a shot!!
If the scrutineers say no to having things mounted on the bikes il do it on a test day or something.. Whatever, dont mind.
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on January 27, 2015, 01:19:55 AM
What equipment is needed to do this? For a Proper job..
What you see in this video (posted by Warlock): bikes, dyno, sound equipment worth thousands of quids and a, of course, a sound engineer :)
Quote from: Warlock on January 14, 2015, 10:18:46 PM
https://www.youtube.com/v/JtwrJCGx9a8
MaX.
.....or a couple of cheap microphones with something to use as a stand, a laptop and audacity; The dyno is probably beyond what would be easily available :) You can also get quite cheap handheld digital recorders if you get serious about it. These zoom ones are less than £100 and have built in mics
(http://images.maplinmedia.co.uk/zoom-h1-handy-recorder.jpg?w=283&h=283&r=4&o=m8G4lJNCRZUz5JEuz4k$VSrN@W8j&V=$N4H)
The most important thing would be a stable rpm for each sample, and recorded with good levels, no overloads as the overload distortion (lots of harmonics) on digital recordings is very unpleasant and is likely to be made even worse by the pitch shifting techniques used by the sim sound engine.
But it has got to be worth a try as I would think a good 'set' of recordings would be a much better start for those wanting to make a sound set than trying to use snippets grabbed from youtube and the like. A few of the bikes mods i have tried have suffered from the weirdest engine 'sounds' i have ever heard - one made the thing unbearable to listen too - sounded like angry hornets trapped in a bottle.
I am sure you would at least capture the 'essence' of the different sound between say an in line four and a twin, plenty of audio tools available for tweaking the tone to suit.
Quote from: h106frp on January 27, 2015, 09:12:00 AM
.....or a couple of cheap microphones with something to use as a stand, a laptop and audacity;
He said "For a proper job" :)
Quote from: h106frp on January 27, 2015, 09:12:00 AM
The dyno is probably beyond what would be easily available :)
Without the dyno you won't be able to capture samples of engine under load ...
MaX.
For the high SPL that you would encounter recording a bike standard dynamic mics would probably be best for close micing, the industry standard SM57/58 is less than £100, even a lowly laptop with built in audio has specs that would make the high end analogue recorders of 10 years ago weep.
A home studio USB standard recording interface with very good mic preamps can be had for <£100 if you get really serious about it.
Small admission, have been running a small multitrack home studio with friends for years so dabbled with quite a bit of recording equipment, some professional grade stuff with work as well and you really are splitting hairs these days with quality considering the huge price differences involved between enthusiast and professional grade gear;).
Google 'field recording', a lot of people have developed very affordable methods for capturing sounds whilst out and about, seems to be a hobby in itself.
Can't argue with the dyno issue at all, but as has been hinted at, just how does the audio engine allow for engine load? The 'sound space' only appears to be mapped in 2 dimensions, rpm and volume, we do not seem to have a third engine load axis. This would suggest that whatever we record would need some sort of processing to help it simulate the full range of engine conditions from revving on the grid to climbing an incline at full power to coasting with throttle shut.
Even if a dyno was available, what would be the 'datum' engine load condition to adopt for the original sample recording?
Quote from: h106frp on January 27, 2015, 10:43:52 AM
For the high SPL that you would encounter recording a bike standard dynamic mics would probably be best for close micing, the industry standard SM57/58 is less than £100, even a lowly laptop with built in audio has specs that would make the high end analogue recorders of 10 years ago weep.
A home studio USB standard recording interface with very good mic preamps can be had for <£100 if you get really serious about it.
Small admission, have been running a small multitrack home studio with friends for years so dabbled with quite a bit of recording equipment, some professional grade stuff with work as well and you really are splitting hairs these days with quality considering the huge price differences involved between enthusiast and professional grade gear;).
Google 'field recording', a lot of people have developed very affordable methods for capturing sounds whilst out and about, seems to be a hobby in itself.
OK, let's say I overestimated the budget a bit. But you'd still need that sound engineer :)
Quote from: h106frp on January 27, 2015, 10:43:52 AM
Can't argue with the dyno issue at all, but as has been hinted at, just how does the audio engine allow for engine load? The 'sound space' only appears to be mapped in 2 dimensions, rpm and volume, we do not seem to have a third engine load axis. This would suggest that whatever we record would need some sort of processing to help it simulate the full range of engine conditions from revving on the grid to climbing an incline at full power to coasting with throttle shut.
No ! They are mapped on dimansions RPM and Throttle position.
The throttle position, given the engine characteristics, tells you the load.
That's what I'm trying to the to Wh1t34Gl3(SAS): GPB considers the load, because it mixes the ON and OFF samples depending on the throttle (which is the load, more or less).
In GPB you have 2 sets of samples : one set with throttle OFF, one with throttle ON.
Both of them should be taken on a dyno (with throttle fully OFF and fully ON respectively).
MaX.
Ahhhhh... fog lifting ???
Think i finally follow how it arrives at its mixed down sound, thanks for explaining.
Burnouts with the front wheel against a wall then - low budget dyno? ::)
Quote from: h106frp on January 27, 2015, 01:15:05 PM
Burnouts with the front wheel against a wall then - low budget dyno? ::)
lol ;D good idea
Quote from: h106frp on January 27, 2015, 01:15:05 PM
Burnouts with the front wheel against a wall then - low budget dyno? ::)
Guess it's gonna be hard to find somebody volunteering his tire (and bike) for that :)
MaX.
How about towing someone in a shopping trolly around the track with the sound gear in a second trolly and a bit of card in front of mic to stop wind sound???? At 160++ in a shopping trolly could be fun!!!!
SORRY ;D ;D ;D
DD
>HornetMax
Okay, i'll try to find out all of this. Btw, i saw a "s2b_backfire" in a mod, is this working, or just a test ?
Quote from: Wh1t34Gl3(SAS) on January 27, 2015, 03:04:54 PM
>HornetMax
Okay, i'll try to find out all of this. Btw, i saw a "s2b_backfire" in a mod, is this working, or just a test ?
Here's how I think sounds are played, with a little example. Let's suppose we have:
- Layer0 (ON layer):
- Sample_ON_0: with volume 1 between 3000 and 5000RPM
- Sample_ON_1: with volume 1 between 5000 and 10000RPM
- Layer1 (OFF layer):
- Sample_OFF_0: with volume 1 between 3000 and 5000RPM
- Sample_OFF_1: with volume 1 between 5000 and 10000RPM
I've simplified the things just for clarity: only 2 samples per layer, samples envelopes are constant (=1) instead of the usual fade-out - fade-in, the samples do not have overlapping RPM ranges. Samples names are for clarity too.
Now let's say you're at 4000RPM with the throttle at X (between 0 and 1). What I do (and what I think GPB does, more or less):
- For each layer, find the volumes of each sample, given the current RPM: in this case we have:
- ON layer: Sample_ON_0 with volume 1, Sample_ON_1 with volume 0
- OFF layer: Sample_OFF_0 with volume 1, Sample_OF_1 with volume 0
- As the throttle is at X, weight each layer as: ON layer with weight (X), OFF layer with weight (1-X)
So in this situation we end up playing Sample_ON_0 at volume (X * 1) and Sample_OFF_0 at volume ((1-X) * 1)
The throttle level is, roughly, the engine load.
In reality: in each layer, you can have more than one sample with non-zero volume,just play all samples with volume > 0 (actually, I just play all of them all the time, if volume is 0, then the sample is muted).
Also, Samples typically have a fade-in / fade-out rpm range over which two consecutive samples overlap: this allows for smooth trnasition between one sampe and the next (and vice versa). But that's not a problem at all: just determine for each sample its correct volume given it's volume envelope (described in the scl) and the current rpm (given by the physics).
In any case, as soon as my tool is ready you'll see all that visually: it will be much clearer :)
For the backfires: yeah it works, it's just not a smart way to do that. Instead of having some sort of logic that from time to time pops a backfire (under certain conditions), you have a sample that is always played when you are in the right RPM range. Making the sample long you give the impression the backfire doesn't happen always (as when you shut the throttle, the RPMs will go down and sooner or later the sample volume will go to zero).
MaX.
I know that already. :\
The problem with simulators, is that they can't simulate perfectly the real time conditions of the engine irl. Hear an onboard video and ingame, even if it is similar, you hear the difference. And i think these kind of details makes the difference.
Examples:
Irl, driving in 6th gear at 2000rpm (the bike have the neutral limit at 1000) is making it look like it is drowning, you can feel vibrations on the bike. In gpbikes, you just drive at 2000rpm, normally..
The example of the "vrrrrrrooo" sound can be heard when you are stabilizing revs in a corner. In gpbikes, it only plays the usual sample.
These kind of things.. Of course i take examples from I4 4S engines, but it can be applied to other ones.
I think your describing the different sort of sounds you get when either engine braking hard down through the gears with throttle shut off or labouring the engine with a large throttle opening and low rpm and too tall a gear.
Ok, if somebody can send me a few links via pm of some equipment il need (cheap as possible but good enough) il take a serious look. I have no idea what to look for..
I have free access to a rolling road.. For the laptop is that a case of having the right program etc?
Also.. If this is more than likely a waste of time and money. Please tell me lol
Something like this will interface pretty much any mic via USB and give high quality recording (£37)
http://www.gak.co.uk/en/alesis-core-1-inline-usb-audio-interface/93391?gclid=CL_ty5T9tMMCFQbkwgodGy4A1Q (http://www.gak.co.uk/en/alesis-core-1-inline-usb-audio-interface/93391?gclid=CL_ty5T9tMMCFQbkwgodGy4A1Q)
Comes with a free basic multitrack recording and editing package Cubase® 7 LE which is the lite version of an industry standard
And for a simple mic cheap as possible something like (£25)
http://www.gak.co.uk/en/stagg-dm-5020/20869 (http://www.gak.co.uk/en/stagg-dm-5020/20869)
And probably about £8 for a XLR mic cable
So you could get a start with a limited budget for <£70
This is a unidirectional (cardioid) pattern mic so will tend to pick up mainly the sound its pointed at and is probably best if pointing toward an exhaust or inlet to reduce contributions from other sources. This type of dynamic mic are easy to use in areas with high sound pressure levels. Condenser mics are nice and tend to have a wider/flatter frequency response but are a bit more finnicky to use due to the sensitivity but will be recommenced by a lot of people as being more 'professional'. If you stretch your budget a bit Behringer are accepted as producing good budget microphones.
If you really want to use condenser mics then you are best with an interface that has 'phantom power' this just feeds a voltage down the mic cable to power the microphone element and its associated electronics (or build your own battery powered in-line phantom supply if you are into that sort of thing and use the simpler interface above ;)).
http://www.gak.co.uk/en/focusrite-itrack-solo/74147 (http://www.gak.co.uk/en/focusrite-itrack-solo/74147)
Ignoring mechanical noise the area over the tank for the intake and behind the exhaust would probably characterize the sound signature best. If you went to 2 channels you could mix this down to mono to taste, a stereo system is of course double the cost, or you could repeat the run with the single mic in different places and use the software to edit the samples.
Plenty of other software choices, the simplest to use and free is audacity.
If you really just wanted to just 'give it a go' and see if the results were worthwhile pursuing you could just get a simple battery powered condenser mic from somewhere like maplins, this will plug straight into the laptop and use its sound card and audacity. Mate of mine swears by this with his old minidisc recorder, currently on stock clear for £5
(http://images.maplinmedia.co.uk/stereo-condenser-microphone.jpg?w=283&h=283&r=4&o=Zu7oDBl8Rghhy7N2Fk883EF8LQsj&V=xWpO)
If you are going to try and engineer sounds for the sim the most important item is good source material, so a full set of samples as described by MaX would be a very worthwhile effort in my opinion and almost impossible to obtain any other way. You could spends hours extracting sounds from old video clips but because of the way the sim needs to blend them to cover the rev range they will never be 'right' unless they are captured in the correct rev range blocks.
If you could get a set from both the typical 'observer' position recording the exhaust and another from the 'rider tucked in' on bike position(head over tank) it would be really interesting to hear the difference in the replayed sets. Typically the sounds in game seem to be very exhaust biased which are behind the rider, but riding i personally always relate more to the bellowing sounds from the intakes which are just below your head.
Thank you very much h106frp!!
I can give this a go no problem! Two ''issues'' though.. If I record the sounds can all the data be sent easily enough to somebody who knows what to do with it? Maybe on this forum?
Also.. Using a rolling road, it would just be my bike used! Unless I can pursuade some friends to do it as well.. (not everybody is as keen as me for arm chair racing lol)
But hey.. It would be a start and a good test to see how it turns out, right?
Thanks again!
Ps. (SAS) feel free to have my posts moved somewhere else dude..
We should be able to move them via dropbox or similar. I think you will certainly prove whether a decent sounding mod is possible if the source materials are available. With some processing you could probable produce several unique sounding sets from these recordings.
@MaX with your knowledge of the sound file can you suggest the best rev bands and sample lengths? (will need to be a bit longer time in the original recording to allow for loop trimming)
If no-one else wants to try i will have a go at making the loops although i'm a wrinkly analogue recording sort, the youngsters make this sort of thing look easy as its the way a lot of modern 'music' ::) is produced. Might need some help or pass it on to assemble the sim engine file.
Apparently audacity will do it as demonstrated here;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryLpfVecUDs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryLpfVecUDs)
Quote from: h106frp on January 27, 2015, 08:48:09 PM
Ignoring mechanical noise the area over the tank for the intake and behind the exhaust would probably characterize the sound signature best. If you went to 2 channels you could mix this down to mono to taste, a stereo system is of course double the cost, or you could repeat the run with the single mic in different places and use the software to edit the samples.
GPB uses mono samples, so anything would do (stereo samples will have to be mixed down to mono, easy).
Quote from: h106frp on January 27, 2015, 08:48:09 PM
If you could get a set from both the typical 'observer' position recording the exhaust and another from the 'rider tucked in' on bike position(head over tank) it would be really interesting to hear the difference in the replayed sets. Typically the sounds in game seem to be very exhaust biased which are behind the rider, but riding i personally always relate more to the bellowing sounds from the intakes which are just below your head.
I totally agree, would be nice to test that.
Quote from: h106frp on January 27, 2015, 10:26:06 PM
@MaX with your knowledge of the sound file can you suggest the best rev bands and sample lengths? (will need to be a bit longer time in the original recording to allow for loop trimming)
Warlock is probably better placed than me to answer that.
I'd say that we need one sample at idle, and then one each at low / mid / high revs, maybe something like 5,000, 10,000 and 15,000 RPM, each at thrrottle ON and then the same at throttle off.
Ideally the samples should be taken at constant throttle and you should mark down the RPMs of each sample.
Sample length: we probably need no more than 5 to 10 seconds, but capture a bit more to allow some room for tricky stuff.
But again, Warlock probably knows better.
Quote from: h106frp on January 27, 2015, 10:26:06 PM
Apparently audacity will do it as demonstrated here;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryLpfVecUDs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryLpfVecUDs)
On an engine sample it may not be that easy.
MaX.
I havn't time right now, ill try to answer this tonight guys ;)
Ok, so for making loops this is basically what you have to do in audacity:
https://www.youtube.com/v/ryLpfVecUDs
I use Reaper or Adobe Audition, but is the same process so any software will work.
(Reaper is a great piece of audio software, and its free. At startup you will be prompted to buy it, but after 5 secs you can continue to use it FOREVER. Plenty of tutorials in youtube)
About the rpm range for recording, as Max said, Idle + 3 or 4 steps until max. rpms On and OFF throttle (important take notes of the rpms for each step to name the wav files.)
I would say at least 4 steps , the more the better, because you have more options to play with. Some samples will fit better than others, and you can remove one of the steps if you dont like it and play with the pitch in scl file to reach the next one.
Also the longer the better .wav. Any little variation in the sound if you loop a short sample with it , will be very noticeable after. So you probably need to cut that variation at some point and loop the rest of it. So record them until you think your bike is about to explode LOL ;D
You guys think is important what gear is selected when recording? 2nd-3rd gear 4th?
By the way, in my opinion granular synthesis is the way to go, but we need a very good software that will cost a bunch :P
Check this video and imagine a full rpm ramp instead of star wars music.
https://www.youtube.com/v/ZEJiH3rVFB8
This is what i did for the moto2 sound but was a pita because bad quality of grains with free granular plugins for reaper. I tried everyone i could find..... :(, but no good enough.
What you hear in this video is amazingly good.
And this method is the way to get PERFECT loops, based on a single full rpm ramp recording.
Quote from: Warlock on January 30, 2015, 01:30:41 AM
And this method is the way to get PERFECT loops, based on a single full rpm ramp recording.
Just to be sure I understand you correctly: if we had such a tool with a good sample (dyno sweep full ON, full OFF) you think we could create the samples to be fed into the .scl ?
MaX.
Exactly
You can make it sound indefinitely at the point you want (rpms) like the video does with star wars song.
You can also select the width of the grain (grain size knob) lets say you select a full cycle of a 4t engine, and make it sound indefinitely :)
I cannot undoubtedly ensure it will be perfect , because i didn't tried this specific tool, but i did the moto2 sound this way with other granular VST plugins i found like Kontakt 5, Granite or Density.
The difference is i didn't used 1 full cycle of a 4t engine, i had to select a wider range, and make it play slowly, as the guy did in the video plying the song in reverse.
I wish they had a demo to try it , but doesn't seems to
http://www.motu.com/products/software/machfive
Quote from: Warlock on January 30, 2015, 01:35:01 PM
I wish they had a demo to try it , but doesn't seems to
http://www.motu.com/products/software/machfive
Well, it costs "only" 320-350 Euros no ? It's not really out of reach.
But the thing that buggers me is that it doesn't seem to do anything magical. I mean, what we need seems relatively easy: take a grain, vary its size, loop it, alter its pitch.
Or maybe I'm missing something ... I need to look a bit more into that.
MaX.
Nothing magical, really. But other thing is quality.
Try to download Density demo from here and play a bit with it:
http://www.densitygs.com/
Download/Density Standalone (Mac/Win)
I think someone with MaX talent might just be able to do something with all the open code should be available form educational sources..... ;)
this is how density works, sounds good with music , an engine sound is different
Well maybe sounds diferent with downloaded engine sounds, maybe a good recording is enough with this tool.
https://www.youtube.com/v/lpw9f5jP5kw
Quote from: Warlock on January 30, 2015, 02:11:50 PM
Nothing magical, really. But other thing is quality.
Try to download Density demo from here and play a bit with it:
http://www.densitygs.com/
Download/Density Standalone (Mac/Win)
I see there's also a Lite version (Free): is it too limited for our needs ?
MaX.
The demo Its only limited in time, after x time it will close. It won't save the session and it will make a weird sound at some point to fuc*** you hahaa
But lets you render the sound
Is what i used for moto2, In demo version :P
We should give it a go with a good recording, to see what happens before go further
Edit: Ah you mean the lite version? , dont know m8 , havent tried it
Hi guys, Im not up on this topic, but I see your looking for software and I stumbled on this......................... Free Download – Hadron, 'The Ultimate Granular Synthesis Tool' I think its an addon but not sure, lol I just wondered if it was the sort of thing you were looking for. Heres the link
http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2012/11/16/free-download-hadron-the-ultimate-granular-synthesis-tool/ (http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2012/11/16/free-download-hadron-the-ultimate-granular-synthesis-tool/)
From what I understand and that not a lot, you wish to capture a particular sound of the engine and be able to manipulate it for throttle response and engine sounds, and more.
If you let me know names of software you need I might be able to help.
Sorry if I interupted with a piece of poo software lol, just wanna help if I can
DD