That's funny, cause when I started my com8 conversion of the nordschleife, I wasn't very good at driving it. Well, at least when trying to set a good time. So when I had to do the AIW, I was having an hard time, and I dunno, I feel more pressure when I drive while doing this then when I hotlap and I'm relaxed. So my driving is affected a bit. When you have over 150 corners, it becomes hard to do the perfect lap on it :)
So I was thinking, what if we could do it with a spline instead.
Well, it turns out I now know how it would be, since I'm currently in the process of doing the centerline for it, and wow.. its really more a pain this way. I got 3.7km done, and I can't get it dead center 99% of the time. It always goes either way. It doesn't seems to work quite like Max's bezier or smooth curves. I also noticed that when you select a previous segment, and move the ending point, the rest of the track moves with it. So if you want to adjust later one, you are screwed.
It would be so much easier to be able to create the centerline and bestline while driving, or at least having this option added as well. I have noticed the bestline is often not very accurate, and might be the reason why, if it is created like the centerline.
This way of doing the centerline is likely to turn off some modders away, specially those wanting to bring longer tracks in...
Quote from: pleclair on May 02, 2015, 06:44:42 PM
That's funny, cause when I started my com8 conversion of the nordschleife, I wasn't very good at driving it. Well, at least when trying to set a good time. So when I had to do the AIW, I was having an hard time, and I dunno, I feel more pressure when I drive while doing this then when I hotlap and I'm relaxed. So my driving is affected a bit. When you have over 150 corners, it becomes hard to do the perfect lap on it :)
So I was thinking, what if we could do it with a spline instead.
Well, it turns out I now know how it would be, since I'm currently in the process of doing the centerline for it, and wow.. its really more a pain this way. I got 3.7km done, and I can't get it dead center 99% of the time. It always goes either way. It doesn't seems to work quite like Max's bezier or smooth curves. I also noticed that when you select a previous segment, and move the ending point, the rest of the track moves with it. So if you want to adjust later one, you are screwed.
It would be so much easier to be able to create the centerline and bestline while driving, or at least having this option added as well. I have noticed the bestline is often not very accurate, and might be the reason why, if it is created like the centerline.
This way of doing the centerline is likely to turn off some modders away, specially those wanting to bring longer tracks in...
The bestline is created from a replay.
The centerline doesn't have to be exactly at the center, even if the more accurate it is, the better.
Maybe in the future it will be added the possibility to use splines, that could be automatically converted to segments and arcs.
However, after some practice, it's not so difficult and time-consuming to create the centerline.
Compared to the complexity and dedication that the other tasks require, it's hard to imagine that this could be a show-stopper.
That's good to know about the best line then.
I understand for most tracks, it might not be a show stopper as you say, and as you say, after some practice, you can get it better, but the problem is, by the time you start figuring it out a bit, you would like to improve those you laid out previously, and then it becomes a nightmare... I had to redo half of my current centerline.. I'm currently nearing 9km now.
As you can see, driving the centerline at 30km/h would take me about 30-45mins if I remember correctly. It's been hours now I'm doing it this way... while it's nothing compared to the amount of time that goes into the rest, it could certainly be improved by letting us drive the centerline too. Specially if part of the code is already there for the best line!
Please! :)
If I am to convert the gtr evo version for the users of your sims (as I won't be able to release the laser scanned version publicly... might hand it to a few persons, including you if you are interested so you can see how your physics handles it.), then I would really hate to do this a second time the same way :)
If it becomes workable as a spline, where you move individual verts and it adapts instead of move everything after, then it would still be a good improvement, but seriously, please consider adding the option to drive the center line..
I've been wondering tho, what is the use of the centerline? Usually this is for the AI code? Is it to calculate track length and fuel usage and such?
What are the effects if it's not perfect? And the benefits if it is as centered as possible?
Cause I see in your wiki, that you mention using as few segments as possible. This is how I usually do my splines in max as well, but I was wondering if it was engine related. Does the engine have problems dealing with a centerline that have too many segments? Cause I will likely have quite a few, since even the straights on nord aren'T exactly straight, so I cannot use straight segments for extended length.
And corners aren't spline based either and in a perfect arc. So I often need to break up the corners with 3-4 segments so the centerline stays more centered. Cause I've noticed that the segment tend to head the opposite way of the previous one, so you cannot do any straight with those, and you cannot do really long and slightly curved one either as it doesn't want to stretch in such way, but it tend to go more and more on the opposite side ,and the curve gets bigger..
Again, I ask this because if it's important to keep the segments under a certain number, then I would like to know.
Quote from: pleclair on May 02, 2015, 07:59:42 PM
I've been wondering tho, what is the use of the centerline? Usually this is for the AI code? Is it to calculate track length and fuel usage and such?
What are the effects if it's not perfect? And the benefits if it is as centered as possible?
Cause I see in your wiki, that you mention using as few segments as possible. This is how I usually do my splines in max as well, but I was wondering if it was engine related. Does the engine have problems dealing with a centerline that have too many segments? Cause I will likely have quite a few, since even the straights on nord aren'T exactly straight, so I cannot use straight segments for extended length.
And corners aren't spline based either and in a perfect arc. So I often need to break up the corners with 3-4 segments so the centerline stays more centered. Cause I've noticed that the segment tend to head the opposite way of the previous one, so you cannot do any straight with those, and you cannot do really long and slightly curved one either as it doesn't want to stretch in such way, but it tend to go more and more on the opposite side ,and the curve gets bigger..
Again, I ask this because if it's important to keep the segments under a certain number, then I would like to know.
The centerline is used for the dynamic track surface, as a reference for race data ( start/finish line, pits, starting grid, checkpoints ... ), for trackside cameras and more.
The segments limit is 285.
Hmm, any way to know this number? Without knowing anything, I tried to choose view -> race data, and it crashed tracked. Fortunately, I only lost about 1km, since I had saved the tcl not so long ago.
Actually, I found out... I opened the tcl file, and found out its a text file. I got 410 segments. I don't get it. How am I supposed to fit the track in 285 segments when it got more than 150 corners... and plenty of "not so straight" straights.
So when I try to load the track in game, it crashes.
What can I do?
Quote from: pleclair on May 02, 2015, 10:15:43 PM
Actually, I found out... I opened the tcl file, and found out its a text file. I got 410 segments. I don't get it. How am I supposed to fit the track in 285 segments when it got more than 150 corners... and plenty of "not so straight" straights.
So when I try to load the track in game, it crashes.
What can I do?
The limit will be increased in Beta6.
Good news then! If you want one more tester to test it out with a track with that many segments, let me know. I'd be happy to help. Let me know.
Thanks for your time.
Try making a GP Bikes version it can have longer tracks and more segments until WRS Beta 6 comes out. :)
Hmm, interesting! I was practicing gpbike a few mins ago and I'm starting to get a grip of it and thinking it would be nice to ride on nord, since I know it very well. I have found laguna seca which isn't bad at all, and it's a circuit I loved years ago, so I still remembered it pretty well.
For some reasons, I have an easier time with no aids than with them on. I'm playing with my g27, using 180 degrees rotation, 100% direct lean, and no aids. I have mapped the 4 leans buttons on the 6 buttons on the wheel, and after some time, I got used to leaning left and right. I'm still not really comfortable with front/back... I think you lean front when accelerating hard and/or going fast, and lean back when you wanna slow down, or have more traction?
I have seen this pretty darn awesome video on youtube a few days ago:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_BDZakAZrc
Is that something possible with gpbike?
Watch out for the music volume when you start the video :)
I'm sure someone could set a bike up like that. I'm not much of a drift fan. I'm a road racer. :)
I use manual controls also for everything. Except for the moment clutch, since there is a bug on the starting grid if holding the clutch and the front wheel moves just slightly I'd get DNF before a race.
Quote from: PiBoSo on May 02, 2015, 10:39:13 PM
Quote from: pleclair on May 02, 2015, 10:15:43 PM
Actually, I found out... I opened the tcl file, and found out its a text file. I got 410 segments. I don't get it. How am I supposed to fit the track in 285 segments when it got more than 150 corners... and plenty of "not so straight" straights.
So when I try to load the track in game, it crashes.
What can I do?
The limit will be increased in Beta6.
About center line and track caracteristics, is there any news about having non-loop tracks? I'm quite sure it's not that complicated to add, just compare starting and finishing point will make the game understand if it's a loop or not.
If it's a loop -> nothing happen when you cross the line (what we have ATM)
It it's not a loop -> Go back to Garage few seconds after crossing the line.
We could add Pikes Peak and of course WRC stages. :)
If I wish to try to run the track in GPB today, what steps do I need to do?
At the moment, I have followed the tutorial found here: http://forum.kartracing-pro.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=8ccbb90d6100ae4ba3c974c9143d1d9f&topic=196.0 as well as the docs on tracked on the wiki.
So the track should be ready, with the splits, pits (no checkpoints yet), and grid. I have noticed in tracked, there is a bike, cars, kart button. Is that all I have to do? Put a bike grid instead?
Quote from: pleclair on May 03, 2015, 10:41:58 AM
If I wish to try to run the track in GPB today, what steps do I need to do?
At the moment, I have followed the tutorial found here: http://forum.kartracing-pro.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=8ccbb90d6100ae4ba3c974c9143d1d9f&topic=196.0 as well as the docs on tracked on the wiki.
So the track should be ready, with the splits, pits (no checkpoints yet), and grid. I have noticed in tracked, there is a bike, cars, kart button. Is that all I have to do? Put a bike grid instead?
I had the same problem when I first started updating tracks for GPB. Ricco helped me a lot to understand how to do it. Here is the post(posted at bottom of the linked page) that informed me of what to do:
http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=958.15 (http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=958.15)
If you need more info then let me know. ;)
Hawk.
PS: The only thing I would add to finish after I've got it working in GPB, would be to add the "[trackname].tsc" replay camera and "marshals.CFG" files which you create in "TrackED". Also while creating the "Race Data" .rdf file, make sure the GPB radio button is checked to create the pits and grid. ;)
Ok, so if I understood correctly, I did all the steps (except the cameras and marshall which you mention) that ricco mentions. I have my rdf for wrs and I extracted the default track already, copied the default files in my track folder in tracks, deleted the .map, .trp, .rdf and renamed the victoria.xxx to my track name.
So at this point, all I would need to do to get it in GPB would be to copy my track dir over to gpb track dir, open it in tracked, and generate race data for gpb, selecting bikes instead of cars?
Before I start tracked, should I delete the .rdf or I can simply press bike and save it?
Thanks for helping out!
I just tried to copy my track folder from WRS to GPB. Then with tracked, I loaded the .trp in that dir, loaded the rdf, then selected gp bikes with the radio selection button, and in grids, I chose bikes instead of cars, which set the grid to tighter spacing.
Saved it, and tried it in GPB, and it still crashes.
You sure that GPB support at least 410 segments already?
How is there exporter packaging meshes? This track have a lot of objects. Over 3000, so if the engine also have an objects limitation, this could be a problem as well. I have read that the engine don't mind if the terrain is split into 10000 pieces or 1 performance wise. So, I dunno. This shouldn't be a problem, but anyone tried such a large number of objects before?
If your track is working correctly in WRS, it should work directly with GPB without having to make changes (at least to ride on it, timing will not work).
Upload your trp, your tcl and your rdf somewhere, I'll have a look if necessary :)
Quote from: pleclair on May 03, 2015, 01:16:58 PM
You sure that GPB support at least 410 segments already?
PiBoSo talked to increase this limit few months ago, not sure it has been implemented though.
Quote from: pleclair on May 03, 2015, 01:16:58 PM
How is there exporter packaging meshes? This track have a lot of objects. Over 3000, so if the engine also have an objects limitation, this could be a problem as well. I have read that the engine don't mind if the terrain is split into 10000 pieces or 1 performance wise. So, I dunno. This shouldn't be a problem, but anyone tried such a large number of objects before?
Yep, PiBoSo confirmed that. Not objects limitation, and I'm pretty sure that's not the problem since the TT Mini has a huge number of objects too and is running very well.
Actually, it isn't working in WRS. It only supports 285 segments, and I have 410.
However, Hawk mentioned that GPB supported more segments, so I wanted to see if I could get it to run there while waiting for the WRS update.
But seems it doesn't work.
I see the app is 32bit. This could be an issue when I have the full scene in. At the moment, I only exported every terrain objects only. Wanted to test out with this first, as the scene is huge. About 20kmx20km. And since it needs a large view distance so we can see the built mountains instead of having cardboard mountains, I wanted to make sure it could deal with this before adding everything.
Cause this scene doesn't run in rFactor 1 32bit without the 4gb patch.
Since I do not have the full scene yet, and far from it, I have checked memory usage while gpb tries to load the track, and it already uses 2gb at most, then drops to 1.6, and goes from 1.6 to 1.7 then crash.
So for the moment, memory isnt an issue, but will likely be when I add all trees/bushes/grasses, objects, guardrails, fences... etc...
At the moment, I'm upload the ground textures to mega, and I'm at 40%. I will finish this first, then upload the required files to mega and give you the link to it. Cause if I abort the transfer now, I will have to resume, and mega will check for every file and skip them since it's already there.. that process will take a while since I already have 40%.. so I'll wait till its done.
Quote from: pleclair on May 03, 2015, 01:46:05 PM
Actually, it isn't working in WRS. It only supports 285 segments, and I have 410.
...
I don't know anything about the max segments in KRP but maybe it's worth a test because it's the newest release.
Funny you mention this, cause I was thinking the very same. The FFB in kart is highly different then in the others. I believed it's engine must have been the newest.
Seriously, I would highly suggest to Piboso to change his current model.
Make one sim, give it a good name that let people know it includes all motorsports categories, and sell the cars/bikes/karts in packages. And let people buy a bundle package, the ultimate or extreme version that includes everything.
Then, its all a matter of working on one engine (that anyway all games use), and updating the vehicles after works on physics is done or to fix bugs, whatever... just like ISI does with rF2 actually. Usually, things are somewhat backward compatible, up to a certain degree.
Since bike and cars share pretty much the same tracks, then the base package which would include the sim, should includes the regular tracks. And when you get the most expensive kart package, you get the kart tracks as well.
I believe this would highly help with people hopping in the game... and would help development of all categories.
And also, forums would be consolidated in one place, with one username/password, and I think that would be for the best of all titles... since someone who visit kartracing might not be aware of the others... unless he digs up a bit. But there is a chance he doesnt get to know about it. Same for kart, while browsing wrs website/forum... Unless you find a thread that link to the other... you might never know...
I will give krp a try then :) I'm currently trying to convert ac's silverstone for wrs/gpb, to see if that works, and to get familiar with the process since I cannot work on the nord right now. I will likely convert quite a few tracks for wrs if I can manage to get one done properly. WRS dont have enough love :P