Thinking about foot operated gear shift - is it possible to have a 'classic' gear shift pattern?
i.e. 1 up / 5 down or 1 down / 5 up rather than sequential shift
The reason for my question.... Footshift mk1 ;) Toggle switch operates quite nicely but needs more 'clunk' from some sort of mechanical indexer. :D
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-nm57y97_DfI/VXS3gr0xHwI/AAAAAAAAATM/BunCnacs3W8/w1323-h743-no/WP_20150607_001.jpg)
If stopped in neutral, you can 1 down to 1st or 1 up to second, 2 up to 3rd etc already, is this not what you mean? ???
Looks a great idea and design! :D
Question answered, thanks - i assumed it was sequential by descriptions in setup tabs (gear up/down rather than shift lever up/down) which would have just been confusing with a foot lever, also though it might have option for reverse pattern if it was prototypical ;).
Inspired to actually wire it up now :)
Go for it! I love mechanical experimentation. :)
If you want to reverse (1st down or 1st up), just assign the control differently in gpb. You don't really need the extra switch.
@Nick: some race bikes have it the other way around (1st up, all others down).
MaX.
yeah ''Race'' shift is 1 up 5 down.. Although its rider preference.. Max Biaggi used road shift i think?
with race shift its much easier to grab another gear with some lean angle..
Yes Bob, Max Biaggi is one of the only riders who use a "road" shift pattern. I don't know of any professionnal racer other than him who rides like that but it probably exists.
Personnally, like you, I prefer 1up 5 down (race shift) by far, it's the standard shifting pattern on race bikes (the TZ250 and TZ350 both have this pattern stock) but on my R6 I use a road shift because it's a bit of a pain in the ass to invert it (the rod(?) goes through the frame on the 2003 model, if you see what I'm talking about). So I keep switching between both but I never made a mistake so far. Fingers crossed :P
Dont you just have to shift up your lever for down in the GPB setup, thats what I do for 1 up the rest down?
DD
Quote from: EdouardB on June 12, 2015, 01:10:31 PM
Yes Bob, Max Biaggi is one of the only riders who use a "road" shift pattern. I don't know of any professionnal racer other than him who rides like that but it probably exists.
Personnally, like you, I prefer 1up 5 down (race shift) by far, it's the standard shifting pattern on race bikes (the TZ250 and TZ350 both have this pattern stock) but on my R6 I use a road shift because it's a bit of a pain in the ass to invert it (the rod(?) goes through the frame on the 2003 model, if you see what I'm talking about). So I keep switching between both but I never made a mistake so far. Fingers crossed :P
I got some rearsets where the shift rod goes around the frame. flip the clamp around so it sticks out further and upside down for race shift! 2 min job ;D ;)
Rearsets are expensive man :P I see what you mean though by flipping the clamp I've looked into it, I just don't think I'm going to buy rearsets for this bike as I'm probably going to sell it to upgrade (when I have the money).
Decided the foot controller needs a proper action (clunk) to work right and so got hold of a shift star and pawl from a proper selector to add to the set up. However having dabbled with manual shift in game (much better) noticed that bike always resets in neutral.
The real shifter has a neutral position and fixed sequence on the star and so this is going to give synchronization problems between controller and game after a crash reset - crash in fifth, game resets too neutral, when i try to get neutral game will shift gears. I guess crash to first then back to neutral but a bit messy. Could do with a 'stays in gear' option really.
Anyone have any idea how i can get around this problem?
Quote from: h106frp on June 13, 2015, 09:55:28 PM
Decided the foot controller needs a proper action (clunk) to work right and so got hold of a shift star and pawl from a proper selector to add to the set up. However having dabbled with manual shift in game (much better) noticed that bike always resets in neutral.
The real shifter has a neutral position and fixed sequence on the star and so this is going to give synchronization problems between controller and game after a crash reset - crash in fifth, game resets too neutral, when i try to get neutral game will shift gears. I guess crash to first then back to neutral but a bit messy. Could do with a 'stays in gear' option really.
Anyone have any idea how i can get around this problem?
Well I'd have thought that with Piboso being a simulation fanatic he would agree that the current reset situation of the gear resetting to neutral after an accident is very arcade game in nature, therefore I would think he'd agree that the gears should stay in the gear it was in when the crash occurred and that it should be the rider who then selects the gear needed to pull away after reset. ;)
Hawk
Pheww tricky one! For the sake of 'feel' you have created a monster! I respect that lol. It seems a solution to drive the mechanics is needed.
So using the game gear output signals, amplified to drive a stepper-motor, connected to the gear change lever to move it depending on the bikes actual gear, with a feedback signal which can be overridden by foot movements...is a solution. Might be easier to buy a real bike though.
Failing that Hawks idea is fine by me.
Seriously at this moment I have no bright ideas. I would like to give your setup a go though, realistic gear change makes me all 'candy-store'. I find it very interesting what you are doing there H. Keep up the interesting work. ;)
Quote from: Hawk UK on June 13, 2015, 10:20:23 PM
Well I'd have thought that with Piboso being a simulation fanatic he would agree that the current reset situation of the gear resetting to neutral after an accident is very arcade game in nature, therefore I would think he'd agree that the gears should stay in the gear it was in when the crash occurred and that it should be the rider who then selects the gear needed to pull away after reset. ;)
You can't do that without a button to start the engine (which on some bikes does not exist), otherwise you'd respawn with engine running and in 4th gear (example) and it will just bog.
So you trade some arcadey for some other arcadey.
MaX.
Quote from: Napalm Nick on June 13, 2015, 10:25:10 PM
Pheww tricky one! For the sake of 'feel' you have created a monster! I respect that lol. It seems a solution to drive the mechanics is needed.
So using the game gear output signals, amplified to drive a stepper-motor, connected to the gear change lever to move it depending on the bikes actual gear, with a feedback signal which can be overridden by foot movements...is a solution. Might be easier to buy a real bike though.
Failing that Hawks idea is fine by me.
Seriously at this moment I have no bright ideas. I would like to give your setup a go though, realistic gear change makes me all 'candy-store'. I find it very interesting what you are doing there H. Keep up the interesting work. ;)
Always love a simple solution lol :D
Shame because the mechanism itself is very simple (and cheap second hand) and gives a short shift throw with a very positive action. Just having a switch and springs feels very odd and 'bouncy'.
Seems i have made myself a problem unless i modify the star to remove the neutral position :(
Might have to ask nicely for enhanced gear shift support :) Maybe have clutch in on respawn or similar
Quote from: HornetMaX on June 13, 2015, 11:02:27 PM
Quote from: Hawk UK on June 13, 2015, 10:20:23 PM
Well I'd have thought that with Piboso being a simulation fanatic he would agree that the current reset situation of the gear resetting to neutral after an accident is very arcade game in nature, therefore I would think he'd agree that the gears should stay in the gear it was in when the crash occurred and that it should be the rider who then selects the gear needed to pull away after reset. ;)
You can't do that without a button to start the engine (which on some bikes does not exist), otherwise you'd respawn with engine running and in 4th gear (example) and it will just bog.
So you trade some arcadey for some other arcadey.
MaX.
Depends on how far you want to take this? I mean if we reset the bike with the rider on-board engine running(as is the case now) then why can't the rider have the clutch disengaged too? This will allow the rider to select the gear they want to pull away.
If you want to go full sim then the rider would have to go through a sequence of running up to the bike bringing it upright, running alongside it to bump start it, hop-on and off your go. So we have to ask how far do we want to take reality in the sim? Some solutions are sensible, others are probably taking things a little too far, though for me I'd like to see deep reality implemented for this type of situation. That would mean - Crash and there would be a 90%+ chance that your race is over. Problem solved. ;)
Wonder if a 'synchronize neutral' joystick button input declaration would be a possibility ?
Another microswitch only activated when you enter/pass neutral that when detected cause the rider to release the clutch during respawn and also ensures game and controller stay synchronized.
Maybe something for the future if a commercial foot controller becomes available for now i guess an override to let me shuffle gears without the game knowing ;)
Wouldn't having big old clunky stiff highly sprung push button switches for the gearshift make it easier and still give good feel?
Not as nice a solution as yours but removes all the problems. :)
Tried that, and it works but it does not give that 'slotting it into gear' feel you get from the proper mechanism. I just though this would be a good (without thinking the implications of having absolute positions on the controller through fully) upgrade to the mechanism.
With foot controls you can deliver a lot of force but you do not have as much feel as you do with hand controls so you need a mechanism that gives a lot of feel and good feedback that it has engaged a gear.
Crap or unplanned gear changes are also instant crash territory in GPB so the system needs to be reliable or it will just end up being annoying. Having tried the AUTO gears option versus my hamfisted manual changes i have realized i am never going to enjoy GPB fully without manual shift, the AUTO pretty much ruins every lap causing wheel lock ups and running wide on corners. Even my poor efforts with hand controller button shift (i generally get muddled between brakes and shifting during downshifting/turn approach :-[ ) give much improved laps.
With springs(even big ones) the lever invariably end up 'bouncy', the normal ratchet/pawl system keeps the lever locked in place until the force is high enough for a definite single action before resetting itself. The complication is not the mechanism as its quite simple, its just integrating it into GPBs current control options.
Maybe once we see DD's controllers in use by more sim owners the options in game will developed to allow easier integration of different systems, early days for this sort of controller silliness.
Its a bit over the top i know but a good foot control has lurked in the back of my mind since the first time i played GP500 (i dashed out and bought it on release day and it still sits as a surviving 'classic' on my shelf). Just seems the natural approach if you are used to real world riding as the actions required are already second nature and you do not really give it much thought. Much the same as good car driving setups try to emulate the difference in feel between clutch/throttle and brake pedals to give the illusion of familiarity.
For anyone who has steered clear of their gearbox innards and is confused by my waffle this is the normal mechanism i want to simulate;
(http://www.factorypro.com/images/ShiftKits/EVOshiftSTARApriliaInstall/EVOApriliaInstallIMG_1577.JPG.JPG)
The pawl attached to the shift lever (lower left) indexes the star round on the pins and causes a drum to revolve that sets the gear. The sprung arm with the roller (bottom) locks the star in position (gear). The picture shows neutral selected and the roller on the top of the star arm, normal gears are in the positions between the star arms.
The position with the short star arm is neutral - between 2 normal gear positions;
(http://www.factorypro.com/shift_kits/_EVOSHFT,star,arm,spring,black,150.jpg)
So one option is weld up (build up and reprofile) the neutral position so the selector becomes sequential with no proper neutral :(
Quote from: Hawk UK on June 13, 2015, 11:53:45 PM
Depends on how far you want to take this? I mean if we reset the bike with the rider on-board engine running(as is the case now) then why can't the rider have the clutch disengaged too? This will allow the rider to select the gear they want to pull away.
To me it is fine as it is, because having GPB staying in the gear before the crash means more frustration for newcomers. And they already have to bear a lot of frustration ...
I really think h106frp can find a good compromise in terms of feeling without having a real gearbox attached which honestly is a bit too much in my opinion.
I'd understand a real brake circuit to give you the feeling of it, but for gears it is minor.
Of course, if Piboso is OK to support the option why not (I guess it's already there for cars, as when your steering wheel has an H-pattern you have to support this).
MaX.
Simple but effective. The foot switches give resistance before clicking and I wouldn't want much more with only socks on. I want to introduce a spring to hold the lever central at some point but otherwise it's job done. If you have some kind of footwear on though this gives very little feel. Only other issue is longevity of the switches, first set lasted about 6 months of heavy use before needing a trip to the bin but these new ones are way better albeit a slightly higher price.
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo303/t_teeds/shifter_zps1jz7zbzt.jpg) (http://s386.photobucket.com/user/t_teeds/media/shifter_zps1jz7zbzt.jpg.html)
Neat, and similar concept to what i have at the moment. I was just hoping to give the pedal a more 'familiar' feel. If i get it working the switches will get an easy life as well as the actuator at the switch will have fixed throw.
Certain i will get a solution eventually even it it means not having a fixed neutral position :)