Hi all,
I'd need somebody with track tyres (front and rear, rear more important): if you have motogp ones at hand, that would be great, but I can settle for SBK ones (or for whatever you have).
Would it be possible to give me:
- The tyre basic data (brand an name, plus ususal measures like 180/55 ZR17).
- Some of the measures in the below drawing:
- The total tyre diameter (taken from the middle of the tyre, i.e. the biggest diameter): the 650mm in the pic
- The tyre width (taken where the tyre shoulders connects with the part of the tyre supposed to make contact with the trackl) = the 225.17mm in the pic
- The height of the profile = the 65mm in the pic
Ideally, the measures should be taken with the tyre not loaded (e.g. in its axle, not touching the ground) and as accurate as you can (let's say down to 1mm, especially for the width and profile height (225mm and 65mm in the pic).
It's just a curiosity so don't waste an afternoon to do that.
(https://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=0BzmU7Qoo77i1b1dLMkxmVmRXaHc) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzmU7Qoo77i1b1dLMkxmVmRXaHc/view?usp=sharing)
MaX.
Ive got pirelli supercorsers (sc1 front and sc2 rear but they are warn) similar tire to whats used in BSB. Is that any good?
Quote from: matty0l215 on August 06, 2015, 08:03:29 AM
Ive got pirelli supercorsers (sc1 front and sc2 rear but they are warn) similar tire to whats used in BSB. Is that any good?
Yeah, that would be good. Assuming they are for your 675, I'd like to get some rear for bigger bikes (190 or more size), but the front is probably the same.
And right, let me know if they are new or worn.
MaX.
got some pirelli slicks in the shed, 200 profile i think, not sure il check in a bit..
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on August 06, 2015, 08:38:05 AM
got some pirelli slicks in the shed, 200 profile i think, not sure il check in a bit..
w00t!1
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on August 06, 2015, 08:18:13 AM
Quote from: matty0l215 on August 06, 2015, 08:03:29 AM
Ive got pirelli supercorsers (sc1 front and sc2 rear but they are warn) similar tire to whats used in BSB. Is that any good?
Yeah, that would be good. Assuming they are for your 675, I'd like to get some rear for bigger bikes (190 or more size), but the front is probably the same.
And right, let me know if they are new or worn.
MaX.
Ah. They're 120 17 55 and 160 17 55...
The triumphs got Pirelli Rosso 2 (120 17 .. and 180 17 ..)
I will be getting some Dunlops for the triumph in the near future or supercorsers (price dependant :P)
Dads 1199 has got supercoarses but there half worn so they might be no good to you.
Here you go
Triumph Daytona 675- both done 2000 miles
Front wheel/tyre - 120 70 17 Pirelli Rosso 2
Rear wheel/tyre- 180 55 17 Pirelli Rosso 2
Front
1- 120mm
2- 606mm
3- 53mm
Rear
1- 181mm
2- 650mm
3- 65mm
Ducati 1199 Panigale - rear tyre is worn, front nearly new (less than 500 miles)
Front wheel/tyre - 120 70 17 Pirelli Supercoarse SP
Rear wheel/tyre- 200 55 17 Pirelli Supercoarse SP
Front
1- 120mm
2- 600mm
3- 50mm
Rear
1- 190mm
2- 670mm
3- 50mm
sv tyres are shagged so I'll be getting brand new ones soon ;D
Hope this helps :)
They are 200's btw, il pick out the best set over weekend and measure up.. But! They are loose not on rims. That ok?
Edit: il measure my mates instead, he runs them on the zx7r.. Already on bike.
Are you building a bike MaX??
Thanks Matty !
@BOB: hmm I'd say on rim is better (as they are inflated). If you measure the ones on the bike, let the wheel unloaded (i.e. not touching the ground).
MaX.
I've found a drawing from a Dunlop Sportmax Q2:
(https://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=0BzmU7Qoo77i1bjJmVXYtY0xLRmM)
Then I've layered on top of the red line a circular profile, as GPB does it (or at least as i think it does it). Black is dunlop, green is GPB:
(https://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=0BzmU7Qoo77i1czhjeE1WSEd4cXM)
Looks like a pretty big difference. Too big ?
MaX.
I canna see tha piccies
Quote from: Napalm Nick on August 07, 2015, 10:00:18 AM
I canna see tha piccies
Weird, works fine over here (Chrome, Firefox, IE). Anybody else ?
MaX.
That is weird - I can also see them in Chrome ::)
Time I let this damn IE go. And 'Edge'.
Quote from: Napalm Nick on August 07, 2015, 12:11:01 PM
That is weird - I can also see them in Chrome ::)
Time I let this damn IE go. And 'Edge'.
Your still using IE...... ???
Thats your problem right there :P
I'm using IE for viewing here and I can see the pics fine. :)
Very interesting finding Max. ;)
Hawk
I've got my IE locked down tighter than rusty nuts. It knows Max's links are dangerous I guess.
Slightly modified the drawing, to show the dunlop and the GPB profile for a tyre with same diameter.
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on August 07, 2015, 01:05:27 PM
Slightly modified the drawing, to show the dunlop and the GPB profile for a tyre with same diameter.
MaX.
Looks like a big difference to me Max.
If tyre profiles can be altered in the bike physics files it would be good if someone could try this out and see what differences it makes to a bikes handling characteristics?
Hawk.
Quote from: Hawk UK on August 07, 2015, 01:49:02 PM
Looks like a big difference to me Max.
If tyre profiles can be altered in the bike physics files it would be good if someone could try this out and see what differences it makes to a bikes handling characteristics?
At the moment I think it's not possible, the tyre profile is assumed to be round.
How much impact would a different profile have on the handling: hard to say. But as it is a simulator, maybe we should just put a more flexible profile in (maybe as simple as elliptical would already be a big step forward).
Notice however that the tyre "grip" characteristics should be unaffected by the profile, as they are captured in the MF model (which is kind of independent of the tyre profile declared in the tyre's .ini file).
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on August 07, 2015, 02:01:35 PM
Quote from: Hawk UK on August 07, 2015, 01:49:02 PM
Looks like a big difference to me Max.
If tyre profiles can be altered in the bike physics files it would be good if someone could try this out and see what differences it makes to a bikes handling characteristics?
At the moment I think it's not possible, the tyre profile is assumed to be round.
How much impact would a different profile have on the handling: hard to say. But as it is a simulator, maybe we should just put a more flexible profile in (maybe as simple as elliptical would already be a big step forward).
Notice however that the tyre "grip" characteristics should be unaffected by the profile, as they are captured in the MF model (which is kind of independent of the tyre profile declared in the tyre's .ini file).
MaX.
Personally I would have thought the profile of a motorcycle tyre would have a very large impact on the way a bike handles, especially during cornering manoeuvres and how the bike reacts to changes in direction?
Hawk.
Quote from: Hawk UK on August 07, 2015, 11:19:49 PM
Personally I would have thought the profile of a motorcycle tyre would have a very large impact on the way a bike handles, especially during cornering manoeuvres and how the bike reacts to changes in direction?
In real life yes, of course. But In GPB it may be less so for the handling: don't forget there's the virtual rider in the middle, it could "hide" (or compensate) the differences in handling.
Also, in real life how much "grip" you have from the tyre at a given vertical load, slip angle and lean angle depends (also) on the contact patch size, and that depends on the profile.
But the"grip" characteristic of the tyres in GPB is captured by the MF model: it kind of "includes" the dependency of patch size on tyre profile.
So if you change the profile in GPB without changing the MF model, nothing will change in terms of "grip".
One thing that a different tyre profile can change is how many revs the engine picks up when you lean the bike at different lean angles.
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on August 08, 2015, 08:21:44 AM
Quote from: Hawk UK on August 07, 2015, 11:19:49 PM
Personally I would have thought the profile of a motorcycle tyre would have a very large impact on the way a bike handles, especially during cornering manoeuvres and how the bike reacts to changes in direction?
In real life yes, of course. But In GPB it may be less so for the handling: don't forget there's the virtual rider in the middle, it could "hide" (or compensate) the differences in handling.
Also, in real life how much "grip" you have from the tyre at a given vertical load, slip angle and lean angle depends (also) on the contact patch size, and that depends on the profile.
But the"grip" characteristic of the tyres in GPB is captured by the MF model: it kind of "includes" the dependency of patch size on tyre profile.
So if you change the profile in GPB without changing the MF model, nothing will change in terms of "grip".
One thing that a different tyre profile can change is how many revs the engine picks up when you lean the bike at different lean angles.
MaX.
What is the MF model Max?
Maybe the differences in tyre profile you have found account for the seemingly slightly(and I do mean only slightly) exaggerated increase in revs as the bike leans over that we hear at this time, and this is what I think Jan is trying to explain too?
Hawk.
Quote from: Hawk UK on August 08, 2015, 08:55:33 AM
What is the MF model Max?
MF = Magic Forumla (silly name, if you ask me).
It's the model that describes the tyre properties in terms of "grip". Also known as Pacejka's model (or Pacejka's Magic Formula, or MF or ...).
Quote from: Hawk UK on August 08, 2015, 08:55:33 AM
Maybe the differences in tyre profile you have found account for the seemingly slightly(and I do mean only slightly) exaggerated increase in revs as the bike leans over that we hear at this time, and this is what I think Jan is trying to explain too?
The fact some seems to say the rev increase when leaning is too big is why I started looking into this.
To be honest we'd need somebody with track experience and good understanding (EdouardB ?) to confirm if the effect is exaggerated or not.
You'll have to go into a turn with constant revs and throttle, looking at your revs before the turns, then leaning significantly keeping the throttle steady and then looking at your revs mid turn.
And don't forget that in GPB you can lean more than what most of us can do ...
Anyway, there's another strange thing: if my interpretation of GPB's tyre size is correct, the 990 has a 225mm wide rear (2*130*sin(60deg)). Now, I can't find 2003 MotoGP data, but 225 seems quite a lot to me ... today's MotoGP seems to be on 190, or at least that's the official message from the tyre maker: it could be more, but 225 ...
MaX.
Its fine... lets say you are full throttle in 6th gear and you turn into a fast corner.. the revs will hit the roof!!
not too many corners like that so usually you short shift to compensate. or if you are flat out.. roll off the throttle very slightly..
in GPB its the sounds which make it seem unrealistic.. imo.
just my personal opinion..
places like the isle of man point all this out perfectly!
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on August 08, 2015, 10:24:16 AM
Its fine... lets say you are full throttle in 6th gear and you turn into a fast corner.. the revs will hit the roof!!
not too many corners like that so usually you short shift to compensate. or if you are flat out.. roll off the throttle very slightly..
in GPB its the sounds which make it seem unrealistic.. imo.
just my personal opinion..
places like the isle of man point all this out perfectly!
Actually Bob, you've probably hit the nail on the head with suggesting it's the bike sounds which make it sound unrealistic. I think you have a genuine point there mate. ;)
Would still be interesting to test change that tyre profile though. ;D
Hawk.
QuoteAnyway, there's another strange thing: if my interpretation of GPB's tyre size is correct, the 990 has a 225mm wide rear (2*130*sin(60deg)). Now, I can't find 2003 MotoGP data, but 225 seems quite a lot to me ... today's MotoGP seems to be on 190, or at least that's the official message from the tyre maker: it could be more, but 225 ...
That´s what it´s still strange to me.
225mm wide tyres were never used in GP or MGP.
They use 190mm-200mm tyres. 190/650R16.5 label of the rear tyre.
Front is 125/600R16.5 label on tyre
(Officially used tyre size in MGP 2010 but still in use)
label on tyre means -> they can differ to what is labeled ;-)
Quote from: C21 on August 10, 2015, 07:02:42 AM
QuoteAnyway, there's another strange thing: if my interpretation of GPB's tyre size is correct, the 990 has a 225mm wide rear (2*130*sin(60deg)). Now, I can't find 2003 MotoGP data, but 225 seems quite a lot to me ... today's MotoGP seems to be on 190, or at least that's the official message from the tyre maker: it could be more, but 225 ...
That´s what it´s still strange to me.
225mm wide tyres were never used in GP or MGP.
They use 190mm tyres. 190/650R16.5 is correct label of the rear tyre.
Yeah I know (even if I'm not sure in 2003 they were on 190, but right now they are).
Anyway, the tyre geometry seems to be described by only 3 parameters: total tyre radius, torus radius and the mysterious width. For the 990 they are: 325mm, 130mm and 60.
If 60 is in degrees and describes the half angle of the profile (e.g. the profile is a circular arc of 120 degrees) then I get 225mm tyre width.
If 60 is something else, I'd really like to know what it is :)
MaX.
Straight from Misano (no, I wasn't there, didn't even watch it on tv, sigh), two pics of MotoGp tyres showing the profile:
(https://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=0BzmU7Qoo77i1TklKTDNPaGVKNTktYWJUS3E0TmNZYktrMXBB) (https://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=0BzmU7Qoo77i1TklKTDNPaGVKNTktYWJUS3E0TmNZYktrMXBB) (https://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=0BzmU7Qoo77i1b1o3Yk0zN1NKZ2tWRzNtME1VWTBuZkMzNTEw) (https://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=0BzmU7Qoo77i1b1o3Yk0zN1NKZ2tWRzNtME1VWTBuZkMzNTEw)
MaX.
Wow! No wonder they are able to touch their elbows on the tarmac these days! Lol.
Have you got a pic of the old classic slick tyre profile to compare Max? I think it would really show the dramatic differences. ;D
Hawk.
Quote from: Hawk UK on September 17, 2015, 09:45:38 AM
Wow! No wonder they are able to touch their elbows on the tarmac these days! Lol.
Have you got a pic of the old classic slick tyre profile to compare Max? I think it would really show the dramatic differences. ;D
No I don't have it. But even if I had, probably I wouldn't show it to you, fearing you'll start ranting something like "bring back the old-school tyres, these were for real men" ;D :D ;D
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on September 17, 2015, 09:50:08 AM
Quote from: Hawk UK on September 17, 2015, 09:45:38 AM
Wow! No wonder they are able to touch their elbows on the tarmac these days! Lol.
Have you got a pic of the old classic slick tyre profile to compare Max? I think it would really show the dramatic differences. ;D
No I don't have it. But even if I had, probably I wouldn't show it to you, fearing you'll start ranting something like "bring back the old-school tyres, these were for real men" ;D :D ;D
MaX.
Haha! ;D
Your right Max, I probably couldn't resist having just a little a dig at that. Lol
But actually I was thinking more about the bike "Tyre Modding" side of things: Is it possible to mod the tyre profiles for any era or are we fixed at one profile for all bikes at this time?
If we are to be able to get the different era bikes handling correctly then we need to be able to alter this profile for tyres surely. :)
Hawk.
Quote from: Hawk UK on September 17, 2015, 10:54:47 AM
But actually I was thinking more about the bike "Tyre Modding" side of things: Is it possible to mod the tyre profiles for any era or are we fixed at one profile for all bikes at this time?
If we are to be able to get the different era bikes handling correctly then we need to be able to alter this profile for tyres surely. :)
Not possible at the moment in GPB, I think.
To be honest I have no precise idea on how important that would be in GPB: the grip vs angle characteristics are already "embedded" in the Pacejka model GPB uses.
Potentially, the tyre profile could be used to compute correctly the tyre-track contact point (varying with the lean angle), but I can't decide if that would be useful or if it's just overcomplicating the thing. If the tyre is assumed rigid (for tyre-track collision purposes) then maybe it makes sense.
MaX.
I'd have thought the tyre profile would make a massive difference to the handling characteristics of the different bikes, especially the different characteristics from the Classic era to the modern era. Sounds to me like we definitely need to be able to MOD this tyre profile, hopefully for a future update, even possibly for beta 7 if it's not too much work or such of a problem to sort out? I just wish Piboso would talk to us about these kind of things and his plans for them if any. I mean surely this is a very valid query Piboso??
Hawk.